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On February 22 2012 13:12 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 13:04 hzflank wrote:On February 22 2012 12:32 Active.815 wrote:On February 22 2012 12:18 lowercase wrote:On February 22 2012 11:44 Bagi wrote:
Actually this is something I've been considering as a viable terran buff (if the need arises) for a while now, making landed vikings a bit better. The closest thing I can compare them is archons, because initially Blizzard only wanted archons to be a "last resort" sort of unit, one that you only make once your templars have no use. Vikings are similar, they only get landed when there is nothing else in the air. However since protoss was a bit lacking they made archons massive and gave them more range, and now archons are beastly and people often make templar just to turn them into archons. Basically archons became a viable unit on their own.
The vikings change wouldn't have to be so drastic, but it could give terran some flexibility against both lategame zerg and protoss if vikings weren't quite so horrible on the ground. Even making them take less space and move faster when in land mode would be huge, a buff to their stats isn't even needed. I still think you have to factor in that the viking transform is instant and reversible. For all other transforms in the game (brood lords, archons, banelings, etc), the transformation costs money, takes a lot of time, and is irreversible. I'm not saying landed vikings are great, but the fact that they can switch back and forth is inherently very powerful, notwithstanding their combat effectiveness. Bolded the important part- It is not "inherently very poewrful" when it means that both modes turn into a mediocre/worse-than-average version of the average ground range fighter/air superiority unit. Phoenixes, mutas, and corruptors all beat vikings. Roaches, marauders, and stalkers also all beat vikings. You are essentially paying for an air mediocrity fighter and a ground shield that does best against drones, and bad against anything that has an attack that hurts... I would rather have a dedicated air fighter ala valkyrie-at least then it wouldn't be some shitty half-job since the transformation gives vikings so much "potential" Zerg and protoss players would give their right testicle to get vikings instead of corrupters or phoenix. The important part is that vikigs are cheaper, have longer range and do bonus damage vs armoured. Yes, vikings are armoured and have low health but it seems all terran units tend to die quickly. Also, landed vikings do far more damage than people give them credit for. The problem is that they are slow and bulky. All they need is +1 range when landed and they would be solid units (the same thing immortals needed). Vikings are weaker than every other air unit in a straight up fight except battlecruisers since BC's are slow. There is literally no need for the viking anywhere in the other races unless you wanted viking vs viking wars like TvT... They're also ridiculously weak when they're transforming-they have like 2 seconds where they can be hit by AA and not do anything, and 2 seconds when they can be hit by AG and not do anything... and they only have, what, 125 health? 25 more than a marauder when you pay 50 more gas and 25 more mins, it comes from the highest level of production building T can make, takes longer to make, and is worse than everything else except other terran air?
Just to keep the facts accurate: Vikings take 3 seconds to transform and can only be hit by anti-air for the duration of the transformation. This is true while transforming both ways. (As soon as you begin to transform things like zealots cant hit them).
I am not saying landed vikings should normally be used in place of other ground units. I am saying that they are still 75% as ground units when you need to land them, so long as they are not getting stuck due to their slow speed and low range. Landed vikings do 12 dps. That is more than a stimmed marauder, or almost twice as much as a stalker or roach. If the landed vikings are not getting hit then they are pretty damn good.
In arial mode: vikings are the best unit vs colossus/bcs/carriers due to their range and bonus vs armoured. They are not ideal as they need ground support against mutas, phoenix and void rays, but their long range lets them get that ground support. Overall, they are by far the best air to air in the game.
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I think a lot of people agreed that snipe needed to be changed. It's just a shame blizzard did it the way they did. 50 ( 25 massive) would have been more subtle as you would still be able to snipe Zealots, marines, banelings and workers effectively. The psionic change would have been reasonable if you could at least snipe sentries.
Again EMP is already an anti caster ability and is more cost effective, so why use the new version of snipe? The only good thing I can see come of all this is snipe getting replaced by a new more interesting ability.
However, I'm curious to see if Blizzards next knee jerk reaction is:
Dave: Vikings are needed to stop broodlords... but fungal stops them...
Dustin: ... hey remember that idea about making fungal not affect air units...
Dave: ... Genius!
Dustin: And now that we don't use the PTR it will got through! MWHAHAHAHA!
---------Welcome back commander---------
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can somebody tell me where i can make the "starcraft master" achievements? i cant find a custom map with that name.
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On February 22 2012 10:53 envisioN . wrote:
I played a ZvT on Cloud Kingdom today, got to the late game and got 6 Broodlords up, then laughed as my terran opponent attempted to snipe them down, using all of his energy on 5 ghosts and only killing 2 Broodlords. I honestly feel bad for Terrans late-game now because Vikings will be their only answer to BLs and they die to fungal if they get clumped even once
If he got 5 Ghosts and can get a good concave on you he can just stim + attack with everything (tanks, marine, medivacs) with good micro and a few EMPs you probably won't laugh was much.
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I've been waiting since beta for a buff to viking transformation. Let them be the versatile harass unit that they should be: let them transform while moving, both air to ground and ground to air, and fix the bug that makes them bug out when you try to land a bunch (perhaps making their landed mode size smaller would mitigate the issue).
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i thought they were supposed to get rid of mothership too? I'm a toss player so im happy they didnt. can someone clearify plz.
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its funny how EAPM is the actual APM and APM shows EAPM. seems like blizz confused things huh
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On February 22 2012 19:10 SpooN04 wrote:
i thought they were supposed to get rid of mothership too? I'm a toss player so im happy they didnt. can someone clearify plz.
that's the expansion
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On February 22 2012 10:35 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 10:23 shizna wrote:
i guess one good thing about the ghost nerf is that mass nuking will be less OP in ZvT, because ghost is now terrible in ZvT (except for nukes) there will be less ghosts, so ghosts will be a good indicator for zerg that nukes are coming.
still hate how ghost is unbelievably useless against zerg and terran though... you can counter queens, ravens, ghosts and infestors with your ghost... but it's dross against everything else... is there any other unit in the game with such a retarded role? (besides raven)
balance is cool.... but blizzard are still failing big time... thor, raven and ghost are now a complete and utter design failure. stupid bandaid units eagerly anticipating HOTS were they might be less dumb.
btw terran who want a buff from blizzard - refuse to use ghosts in TvZ altogether. play ignorant on purpose and blizzard will act... that's how their balancing system always works. Ghosts are amazing against hydras, infestors, mutalisks, queens, brood lords, ultralisks (and with correct control, or low numbers, also banelings) which means that the only zerg unit above tier 1 that is not countered by a ghost with a decent amount of energy is the roach. In the end, vs a turtling terran with mech, the supply efficiency of ghosts and tanks (2 and 3 supply) vs roaches (2 supply) will destroy you when you are at supply cap for half the game but cannot engage, and then loose vital positioning during your remax and also loose that. With perfect control, 60 supply of ghosts can very near instantly kill 120-150 supply of roaches, and that is before tank shots etc.
what?
anyway, back on planet earth, my point is that a 2 supply ghost is more expensive and worse than 2 marines, 1 marauder or 1 viking against any non-caster unit.
give it stimpack at least... then it won't be that awful against non-caster units.
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rotfl stimpack to ghost,i remember when reaper had stim...
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hahahahahahaha Blizzard
It's time for someone else to make a flagship strategy game for e-sports, these guys have no clue...
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On February 22 2012 18:47 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 10:53 envisioN . wrote:
I played a ZvT on Cloud Kingdom today, got to the late game and got 6 Broodlords up, then laughed as my terran opponent attempted to snipe them down, using all of his energy on 5 ghosts and only killing 2 Broodlords. I honestly feel bad for Terrans late-game now because Vikings will be their only answer to BLs and they die to fungal if they get clumped even once If he got 5 Ghosts and can get a good concave on you he can just stim + attack with everything (tanks, marine, medivacs) with good micro and a few EMPs you probably won't laugh was much.
I'm thinking he might have had more than those 6 BLs as his army...
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What you missed in this thread so far:
- Everyone is going to stop playing Terran.
- Everyone is going to stop playing SC2.
- Blizzard is *expletive* *adjective*.
- Not a single TvZ involving Broodlords has been won.
- This thread and the last patch thread are almost 95% similar! TL mods considering making a template where you only have to fill in the recently nerfed race and unit. Presumably saves >9000 manhours of posting per day worldwide.
We'll keep you posted!
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On February 22 2012 21:38 DarQraven wrote:
What you missed in this thread so far:
- Everyone is going to stop playing Terran.
- Everyone is going to stop playing SC2.
- Blizzard is *expletive* *adjective*.
- Not a single TvZ involving Broodlords has been won.
- This thread and the last patch thread are almost 95% similar! TL mods considering making a template where you only have to fill in the recently nerfed race and unit. Presumably saves >9000 manhours of posting per day worldwide.
We'll keep you posted!
But... But...! MY GHOSTS 
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On February 22 2012 21:38 DarQraven wrote:
What you missed in this thread so far:
- Everyone is going to stop playing Terran.
- Everyone is going to stop playing SC2.
- Blizzard is *expletive* *adjective*.
- Not a single TvZ involving Broodlords has been won.
- This thread and the last patch thread are almost 95% similar! TL mods considering making a template where you only have to fill in the recently nerfed race and unit. Presumably saves >9000 manhours of posting per day worldwide.
We'll keep you posted!
You forgot:
Condescending posts and useless suggestions from non-terran players, claiming that the ghost nerf doesn't change anything.
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On February 22 2012 21:46 zimms wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 21:38 DarQraven wrote:
What you missed in this thread so far:
- Everyone is going to stop playing Terran.
- Everyone is going to stop playing SC2.
- Blizzard is *expletive* *adjective*.
- Not a single TvZ involving Broodlords has been won.
- This thread and the last patch thread are almost 95% similar! TL mods considering making a template where you only have to fill in the recently nerfed race and unit. Presumably saves >9000 manhours of posting per day worldwide.
We'll keep you posted! You forgot: Condescending posts and useless suggestions from non-terran players, claiming that the ghost nerf doesn't change anything.
That about covers it!
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On February 22 2012 12:35 Bashion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 11:44 Bagi wrote:On February 22 2012 11:26 CyDe wrote:On February 22 2012 11:13 Shiori wrote:On February 22 2012 11:01 Bagi wrote:On February 22 2012 10:53 envisioN . wrote:
I played a ZvT on Cloud Kingdom today, got to the late game and got 6 Broodlords up, then laughed as my terran opponent attempted to snipe them down, using all of his energy on 5 ghosts and only killing 2 Broodlords. I honestly feel bad for Terrans late-game now because Vikings will be their only answer to BLs and they die to fungal if they get clumped even once I think the only way to beat it is to snipe/EMP the infestors before the zerg can force the engagement. If the brood lords manage to get into attack range with infestors hiding safely behind them, you are now fucked as terran. Then you just barely hold the Infestor/Bl aggression, making a tonne of Vikings...only to have a bunch of Ultralisks and Lings stream into your now tattered siege lines. I guess the pilots of the Vikings will get some sick polaroids for their families though. Macabre ones, yeah, but dramatic. Haha yeah. I think maybe what Blizz should do is have some sort of buff to Viking's landed mode. I mean, not enough to make them counter Ultras, because then we would have the same so-called problem that the ghosts had, but enough to make the useful. Because, honestly, when is the last time you saw landed Vikings used? Personally, I have never seen that as an actual strategy. Sometimes as a last ditch attempt to hold off a nydus worm, but never harassment or countering a tech switch. With this new hypothetical buff, at least all those Vikings you overproduced when you saw BLs could be used to some extent. Actually this is something I've been considering as a viable terran buff (if the need arises) for a while now, making landed vikings a bit better. The closest thing I can compare them is archons, because initially Blizzard only wanted archons to be a "last resort" sort of unit, one that you only make once your templars have no use. Vikings are similar, they only get landed when there is nothing else in the air. However since protoss was a bit lacking they made archons massive and gave them more range, and now archons are beastly and people often make templar just to turn them into archons. Basically archons became a viable unit on their own. The vikings change wouldn't have to be so drastic, but it could give terran some flexibility against both lategame zerg and protoss if vikings weren't quite so horrible on the ground. Even making them take less space and move faster when in land mode would be huge, a buff to their stats isn't even needed. I think fungal should damage air units, like storm, but it shouldnt lock them. Even if you dont clump, a couple fungals can destroy lots and lots of vikings easily.
Yeah, I think that fungal should only slow down air units, like as though the growth was weighing you down. I think someone mentioned the bug (or whatever it is) where you can't land a mass of vikings effectively, I think that that would be good place to start.
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On February 22 2012 21:46 zimms wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 21:38 DarQraven wrote:
What you missed in this thread so far:
- Everyone is going to stop playing Terran.
- Everyone is going to stop playing SC2.
- Blizzard is *expletive* *adjective*.
- Not a single TvZ involving Broodlords has been won.
- This thread and the last patch thread are almost 95% similar! TL mods considering making a template where you only have to fill in the recently nerfed race and unit. Presumably saves >9000 manhours of posting per day worldwide.
We'll keep you posted! You forgot: Condescending posts and useless suggestions from non-terran players, claiming that the ghost nerf doesn't change anything.
To be fair, we've sort of grown numb to it. Terrans (like any other race) have been throwing fits of rage with every negative patch change all the way back to when the 5rax reaper was still around and you could build barracks before depot, complaining that Terran was now "uncompetitive", "broken" and "unplayable", and how the only reason this change got through was because Blizzard is retarded. Meanwhile, TvX winrates have always been above 50%. Cue next patch change which, again, made Terran "uncompetitive, broken and unplayable". If patch threads are to be believed, there are now about 0 Terran players worldwide because all of them quit at some point.
Play with the patch a couple of weeks, see if the change is actually as big of a change as everyone is yelling about, then complain how Blizzard is retarded. Or not. It's really hard to take complaints seriously when they come after a maximum of 5 post-patch games under your belt.
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Terrans just keep coming. 5 out of 6 advance in todays Code A matches, and the one that didnt, was eliminated in a TvT.
Not even one protoss wins his PvT. And the one zerg also lost his ZvT.
QQ can now stop.
ggyo
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On February 22 2012 21:38 DarQraven wrote:
What you missed in this thread so far:
- Everyone is going to stop playing Terran.
- Everyone is going to stop playing SC2.
- Blizzard is *expletive* *adjective*.
- Not a single TvZ involving Broodlords has been won.
- This thread and the last patch thread are almost 95% similar! TL mods considering making a template where you only have to fill in the recently nerfed race and unit. Presumably saves >9000 manhours of posting per day worldwide.
We'll keep you posted!
man u just made me lol in class, lucky I didn't get kicked out... Thanks for that!
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EPT
