Found this nice little sandbox demonstration video fhe Phoenix upgrade in action vs. Mutas.
Long story short: the difference in unmicroed upgraded phoenixes vs microed upgraded phoenixes is noticable but fairly small. But when you actually attempt to micro them both, the difference is huge--the normal Phoenixes still die quite quickly even with active micro, but the upgraded Phoenixes can kite continuously while taking next to no damage, and since they aren't taking losses they just mow through the muta ball at a really high rate (skip to 2:45 in the video to see what happens with even basic micro when you use upgrades phoenixes vs mutas).
Is there anyone who still doubts the impact this will have?
Found this nice little sandbox demonstration video fhe Phoenix upgrade in action vs. Mutas.
Long story short: the difference in unmicroed upgraded phoenixes vs microed upgraded phoenixes is noticable but fairly small. But when you actually attempt to micro them both, the difference is huge--the normal Phoenixes still die quite quickly even with active micro, but the upgraded Phoenixes can kite continuously while taking next to no damage, and since they aren't taking losses they just mow through the muta ball at a really high rate (skip to 2:45 in the video to see what happens with even basic micro when you use upgrades phoenixes vs mutas).
Is there anyone who still doubts the impact this will have?
On February 22 2012 22:33 PureBalls wrote: Terrans just keep coming. 5 out of 6 advance in todays Code A matches, and the one that didnt, was eliminated in a TvT. Not even one protoss wins his PvT. And the one zerg also lost his ZvT.
QQ can now stop.
ggyo
according to artosis on sotg(I couldn't watch GSL today), the patch hasn't hit in Korea yet.
Also, I don't think anyone was claiming that this means terran can't win, just that terran will have a much harder time winning lategame TvZ.
The whining has been before the patch. And changes do not affect PvT, unless you use ghost to snipe zealots.
Man ignorance is bliss...
Yes the changes affect PvT, thats why people are complaining that a change that was meant to address an imbalance in TvZ is affecting other matchups.
How does ghost snipe affect TvP in common ways? What do your ghosts snipe in TvP? Possibly high templar, but that damage was buffed from 45 to 50 with the patch. What else do you snipe, that is now so low (25 from 45) that it's worthless?
In TvP, ghosts are almost exclusively used for EMP. Heck, you can EMP multiple high templar as well, so the only reason you'd snipe one over EMPing it is if there were spread high templars coming at you to try to soften your army before the actual engagement.
So what TvP complaints do you have with the ghost change? Hell, if you're going to call him ignorant, at least elaborate on why he's wrong.
Against heavy zealot/archon, one of the better terran responses is mass ghost(like, 15) to make sure you can blanket all the templar and archons with multiple emps, and then snipe zealots with the leftover energy, since ghosts also live through a single storm and deal reasonable autoattack damage to zealots. Take a look at Empire.Happy vs Creatorprime in TAC2, for example. Is it still a good counter now that snipe is essentially useless against zealots? I'm not sure. Also, it was a nice bit of extra utility in general.
By the way, the damage buff is almost totally meaningless against high templar, since ghosts went from 2-shotting them to 2-shotting them.
Thank you for posting an example. I think that bio and medivacs should take care of chargelot archon incredibly easy once the blanket EMPs go down, and especially if the archons get taken out early (although they're so slow compared to stimmed units, they don't always play a part in the entire engagement anyway). Are we assuming storm or colossi are in the mix too? Because without those, Terran bio tears apart gateway units.
On February 22 2012 22:33 PureBalls wrote: Terrans just keep coming. 5 out of 6 advance in todays Code A matches, and the one that didnt, was eliminated in a TvT. Not even one protoss wins his PvT. And the one zerg also lost his ZvT.
QQ can now stop.
ggyo
according to artosis on sotg(I couldn't watch GSL today), the patch hasn't hit in Korea yet.
Also, I don't think anyone was claiming that this means terran can't win, just that terran will have a much harder time winning lategame TvZ.
The whining has been before the patch. And changes do not affect PvT, unless you use ghost to snipe zealots.
Man ignorance is bliss...
Yes the changes affect PvT, thats why people are complaining that a change that was meant to address an imbalance in TvZ is affecting other matchups.
How does ghost snipe affect TvP in common ways? What do your ghosts snipe in TvP? Possibly high templar, but that damage was buffed from 45 to 50 with the patch. What else do you snipe, that is now so low (25 from 45) that it's worthless?
In TvP, ghosts are almost exclusively used for EMP. Heck, you can EMP multiple high templar as well, so the only reason you'd snipe one over EMPing it is if there were spread high templars coming at you to try to soften your army before the actual engagement.
So what TvP complaints do you have with the ghost change? Hell, if you're going to call him ignorant, at least elaborate on why he's wrong.
Against heavy zealot/archon, one of the better terran responses is mass ghost(like, 15) to make sure you can blanket all the templar and archons with multiple emps, and then snipe zealots with the leftover energy, since ghosts also live through a single storm and deal reasonable autoattack damage to zealots. Take a look at Empire.Happy vs Creatorprime in TAC2, for example. Is it still a good counter now that snipe is essentially useless against zealots? I'm not sure. Also, it was a nice bit of extra utility in general.
By the way, the damage buff is almost totally meaningless against high templar, since ghosts went from 2-shotting them to 2-shotting them.
Thank you for posting an example (and keep in mind that ghosts also do +5, not -20, damage to archons as well now). I think that bio and medivacs should take care of chargelot archon incredibly easy once the blanket EMPs go down, and especially if the archons get sniped. Are we assuming storm or colossi are in the mix too? Because without those, Terran bio tears apart gateway units.
On February 22 2012 22:33 PureBalls wrote: Terrans just keep coming. 5 out of 6 advance in todays Code A matches, and the one that didnt, was eliminated in a TvT. Not even one protoss wins his PvT. And the one zerg also lost his ZvT.
QQ can now stop.
ggyo
according to artosis on sotg(I couldn't watch GSL today), the patch hasn't hit in Korea yet.
Also, I don't think anyone was claiming that this means terran can't win, just that terran will have a much harder time winning lategame TvZ.
The whining has been before the patch. And changes do not affect PvT, unless you use ghost to snipe zealots.
Man ignorance is bliss...
Yes the changes affect PvT, thats why people are complaining that a change that was meant to address an imbalance in TvZ is affecting other matchups.
How does ghost snipe affect TvP in common ways? What do your ghosts snipe in TvP? Possibly high templar, but that damage was buffed from 45 to 50 with the patch. What else do you snipe, that is now so low (25 from 45) that it's worthless?
In TvP, ghosts are almost exclusively used for EMP. Heck, you can EMP multiple high templar as well, so the only reason you'd snipe one over EMPing it is if there were spread high templars coming at you to try to soften your army before the actual engagement.
So what TvP complaints do you have with the ghost change? Hell, if you're going to call him ignorant, at least elaborate on why he's wrong.
Against heavy zealot/archon, one of the better terran responses is mass ghost(like, 15) to make sure you can blanket all the templar and archons with multiple emps, and then snipe zealots with the leftover energy, since ghosts also live through a single storm and deal reasonable autoattack damage to zealots. Take a look at Empire.Happy vs Creatorprime in TAC2, for example. Is it still a good counter now that snipe is essentially useless against zealots? I'm not sure. Also, it was a nice bit of extra utility in general.
By the way, the damage buff is almost totally meaningless against high templar, since ghosts went from 2-shotting them to 2-shotting them.
Thank you for posting an example (and keep in mind that ghosts also do +5, not -20, damage to archons as well now). I think that bio and medivacs should take care of chargelot archon incredibly easy once the blanket EMPs go down, and especially if the archons get sniped. Are we assuming storm or colossi are in the mix too? Because without those, Terran bio tears apart gateway units.
On February 22 2012 22:33 PureBalls wrote: Terrans just keep coming. 5 out of 6 advance in todays Code A matches, and the one that didnt, was eliminated in a TvT. Not even one protoss wins his PvT. And the one zerg also lost his ZvT.
QQ can now stop.
ggyo
according to artosis on sotg(I couldn't watch GSL today), the patch hasn't hit in Korea yet.
Also, I don't think anyone was claiming that this means terran can't win, just that terran will have a much harder time winning lategame TvZ.
The whining has been before the patch. And changes do not affect PvT, unless you use ghost to snipe zealots.
Man ignorance is bliss...
Yes the changes affect PvT, thats why people are complaining that a change that was meant to address an imbalance in TvZ is affecting other matchups.
How does ghost snipe affect TvP in common ways? What do your ghosts snipe in TvP? Possibly high templar, but that damage was buffed from 45 to 50 with the patch. What else do you snipe, that is now so low (25 from 45) that it's worthless?
In TvP, ghosts are almost exclusively used for EMP. Heck, you can EMP multiple high templar as well, so the only reason you'd snipe one over EMPing it is if there were spread high templars coming at you to try to soften your army before the actual engagement.
So what TvP complaints do you have with the ghost change? Hell, if you're going to call him ignorant, at least elaborate on why he's wrong.
Against heavy zealot/archon, one of the better terran responses is mass ghost(like, 15) to make sure you can blanket all the templar and archons with multiple emps, and then snipe zealots with the leftover energy, since ghosts also live through a single storm and deal reasonable autoattack damage to zealots. Take a look at Empire.Happy vs Creatorprime in TAC2, for example. Is it still a good counter now that snipe is essentially useless against zealots? I'm not sure. Also, it was a nice bit of extra utility in general.
By the way, the damage buff is almost totally meaningless against high templar, since ghosts went from 2-shotting them to 2-shotting them.
Thank you for posting an example (and keep in mind that ghosts also do +5, not -20, damage to archons as well now). I think that bio and medivacs should take care of chargelot archon incredibly easy once the blanket EMPs go down, and especially if the archons get sniped. Are we assuming storm or colossi are in the mix too? Because without those, Terran bio tears apart gateway units.
Well, storm is obviously in the mix if they're going zealot/archon. Colossus may or may not be. The problem is, marauders deal fairly poor damage to both zealots and archons, and marines melt really fast against any sort of AOE. Heavy ghost had the advantages of making absolutely sure you have enough EMPs, and having enough hp to live through a storm while still dealing reasonable damage, and you would usually have enough energy to get 5 or so zealots for free. Without going ghost-heavy, against zealot/archon you kind of have to go marine heavy, and if you miss a couple EMPs or the colossi lands a few good shots, it can be really bad for you.
I would say the Ghost snipe nerf doesn't affect mainstream PvT in a meaningful way. Yeah, they're not as good at sniping zealots but I've never seen a terran do that in my games and only rarely seen it in tournaments/streams. Sure it takes away from terran "flexibility" but they were arguably the most flexible race anyway so I'm kinda "meh" on the issue. They're still useful for EMP and sniping templar which is the more important of the two.
I really hope that terrans start to do much more early bunker pushes and 1-1-1 to kill the zergs before they get broods or ultras , because after that its so hard...
Im a gold terran and its been so hard to win against Zergs , more than toss because they just take the whole map and i cant do anything. im pretty sure i would be a better player if i changed race but i really like terran . Blizzard has changed the game so much since the release that it doesnt even feel like the same game.
I still remember when my Bit-by-bit all-ins worked against much better players than me and TvP was much easier because all i had to do was to defend a 4 gate.
Found this nice little sandbox demonstration video fhe Phoenix upgrade in action vs. Mutas.
Long story short: the difference in unmicroed upgraded phoenixes vs microed upgraded phoenixes is noticable but fairly small. But when you actually attempt to micro them both, the difference is huge--the normal Phoenixes still die quite quickly even with active micro, but the upgraded Phoenixes can kite continuously while taking next to no damage, and since they aren't taking losses they just mow through the muta ball at a really high rate (skip to 2:45 in the video to see what happens with even basic micro when you use upgrades phoenixes vs mutas).
Is there anyone who still doubts the impact this will have?
Mutas are used to harras the hell out of protoss, why would any zerg use them in a straight up fight vs phoenixes? They must be morons to continually fight a micro battle. You never see a muta ball fight directly with a viking ball. I'm of the opinion this phoenix upgrade will have almost no effect on the PvZ game.
Mutas are used to harras the hell out of protoss, why would any zerg use them in a straight up fight vs phoenixes? They must be morons to continually fight a micro battle. You never see a muta ball fight directly with a viking ball. I'm of the opinion this phoenix upgrade will have almost no effect on the PvZ game.
thats the entire point of Phoenixes though--unlike Templars or Stalkers where Z dictates when and where they want to engage, Phoenixes can just go follow the Mutas and give Protoss the ability to dictate fights. The only way for mutas to be safe vs Phoenixes is camped in their base, or if supported by corruptors or Infestors--either of which means they aren't harassing nearly as effectively. If a pure muta ball moves out to harass when upgraded Phoenixes are on the field, they run a serious risk of all getting killed.
On February 22 2012 22:33 PureBalls wrote: Terrans just keep coming. 5 out of 6 advance in todays Code A matches, and the one that didnt, was eliminated in a TvT. Not even one protoss wins his PvT. And the one zerg also lost his ZvT.
QQ can now stop.
ggyo
according to artosis on sotg(I couldn't watch GSL today), the patch hasn't hit in Korea yet.
Also, I don't think anyone was claiming that this means terran can't win, just that terran will have a much harder time winning lategame TvZ.
The whining has been before the patch. And changes do not affect PvT, unless you use ghost to snipe zealots.
Man ignorance is bliss...
Yes the changes affect PvT, thats why people are complaining that a change that was meant to address an imbalance in TvZ is affecting other matchups.
How does ghost snipe affect TvP in common ways? What do your ghosts snipe in TvP? Possibly high templar, but that damage was buffed from 45 to 50 with the patch. What else do you snipe, that is now so low (25 from 45) that it's worthless?
In TvP, ghosts are almost exclusively used for EMP. Heck, you can EMP multiple high templar as well, so the only reason you'd snipe one over EMPing it is if there were spread high templars coming at you to try to soften your army before the actual engagement.
So what TvP complaints do you have with the ghost change? Hell, if you're going to call him ignorant, at least elaborate on why he's wrong.
Against heavy zealot/archon, one of the better terran responses is mass ghost(like, 15) to make sure you can blanket all the templar and archons with multiple emps, and then snipe zealots with the leftover energy, since ghosts also live through a single storm and deal reasonable autoattack damage to zealots. Take a look at Empire.Happy vs Creatorprime in TAC2, for example. Is it still a good counter now that snipe is essentially useless against zealots? I'm not sure. Also, it was a nice bit of extra utility in general.
By the way, the damage buff is almost totally meaningless against high templar, since ghosts went from 2-shotting them to 2-shotting them.
Thank you for posting an example (and keep in mind that ghosts also do +5, not -20, damage to archons as well now). I think that bio and medivacs should take care of chargelot archon incredibly easy once the blanket EMPs go down, and especially if the archons get sniped. Are we assuming storm or colossi are in the mix too? Because without those, Terran bio tears apart gateway units.
Well, storm is obviously in the mix if they're going zealot/archon. Colossus may or may not be. The problem is, marauders deal fairly poor damage to both zealots and archons, and marines melt really fast against any sort of AOE. Heavy ghost had the advantages of making absolutely sure you have enough EMPs, and having enough hp to live through a storm while still dealing reasonable damage, and you would usually have enough energy to get 5 or so zealots for free. Without going ghost-heavy, against zealot/archon you kind of have to go marine heavy, and if you miss a couple EMPs or the colossi lands a few good shots, it can be really bad for you.
Well I definitely agree with you that area of effect units for Protoss (HTs and colossi... archons barely count) are incredibly useful against Terran. In fact, I'd argue that they're actually necessary against a bio ball.
But I think the road we're going down is leading away towards the discussion of how snipe actually is relevant to TvP, and how this snipe nerf is going to hurt TvP. You say chargelot archon because of the zealots. That's a good point, but after the blanket EMPs (which is what ghosts are primarily used for, along with snipes on lone HTs), I say bio and medivacs can take care of the rest easily. Then you say there's storm and colossi too. Then I'll say vikings (and ghosts already took care of the HTs). Then you say why not blink stalkers and observers to counter my new proposed units, and the back and forth goes on.
And all of a sudden we have the standard "everything" 200/200 Terran and Protoss balls, and snipes didn't really mean anything at all. It would come down more to how you engage, how you micro, and how effective your entire unit composition is against your opponent's. And the snipe nerf plays an infinitesmal part in TvP as far as I can see.
On February 23 2012 02:00 naut1c wrote: Why is every terran whining about late game vs Z now. try out seeker missiles. its imba. spread your vikings. emp infestors
Follow your own adive and spread out your Broodlords then.
Found this nice little sandbox demonstration video fhe Phoenix upgrade in action vs. Mutas.
Long story short: the difference in unmicroed upgraded phoenixes vs microed upgraded phoenixes is noticable but fairly small. But when you actually attempt to micro them both, the difference is huge--the normal Phoenixes still die quite quickly even with active micro, but the upgraded Phoenixes can kite continuously while taking next to no damage, and since they aren't taking losses they just mow through the muta ball at a really high rate (skip to 2:45 in the video to see what happens with even basic micro when you use upgrades phoenixes vs mutas).
Is there anyone who still doubts the impact this will have?
100% useless if you don't open double Stargate.
And if you do, then the Zerg makes two infestors and you lose all your phoenix to chain fungals x.x
Although it's nice to know that killing off mutas could hypothetically be that easy (regarding the upgraded phoenix micro video) if I wanted to be tech-trapped into using Protoss air only x.x
I'll probably be sticking to blink + storm to counter mutas.
Mutas are used to harras the hell out of protoss, why would any zerg use them in a straight up fight vs phoenixes? They must be morons to continually fight a micro battle. You never see a muta ball fight directly with a viking ball. I'm of the opinion this phoenix upgrade will have almost no effect on the PvZ game.
thats the entire point of Phoenixes though--unlike Templars or Stalkers where Z dictates when and where they want to engage, Phoenixes can just go follow the Mutas and give Protoss the ability to dictate fights. The only way for mutas to be safe vs Phoenixes is camped in their base, or if supported by corruptors or Infestors--either of which means they aren't harassing nearly as effectively. If a pure muta ball moves out to harass when upgraded Phoenixes are on the field, they run a serious risk of all getting killed.
by the same token, one can say moving out with a group of phoenixes while infestors are on the field is instant death. why would you move out with you see the direct counter out on the field??! phoenixes would only be a countering measure after scouting. it's the zerg's own fault for not scouting the counter-measure by the protoss and continuing blindly building a muta ball like always.
Found this nice little sandbox demonstration video fhe Phoenix upgrade in action vs. Mutas.
Long story short: the difference in unmicroed upgraded phoenixes vs microed upgraded phoenixes is noticable but fairly small. But when you actually attempt to micro them both, the difference is huge--the normal Phoenixes still die quite quickly even with active micro, but the upgraded Phoenixes can kite continuously while taking next to no damage, and since they aren't taking losses they just mow through the muta ball at a really high rate (skip to 2:45 in the video to see what happens with even basic micro when you use upgrades phoenixes vs mutas).
Is there anyone who still doubts the impact this will have?
100% useless if you don't open double Stargate.
I thought the upgrade is purchased from the Fleet Beacon? No way anyone is going to *rush* for ranged Phoenixes... Right?
Found this nice little sandbox demonstration video fhe Phoenix upgrade in action vs. Mutas.
Long story short: the difference in unmicroed upgraded phoenixes vs microed upgraded phoenixes is noticable but fairly small. But when you actually attempt to micro them both, the difference is huge--the normal Phoenixes still die quite quickly even with active micro, but the upgraded Phoenixes can kite continuously while taking next to no damage, and since they aren't taking losses they just mow through the muta ball at a really high rate (skip to 2:45 in the video to see what happens with even basic micro when you use upgrades phoenixes vs mutas).
Is there anyone who still doubts the impact this will have?
100% useless if you don't open double Stargate.
And if you do, then the Zerg makes two infestors and you lose all your phoenix to chain fungals x.x
Although it's nice to know that killing off mutas could hypothetically be that easy (regarding the upgraded phoenix micro video) if I wanted to be tech-trapped into using Protoss air only x.x
I'll probably be sticking to blink + storm to counter mutas.
To be honest, I'm just hoping that this buff metagames Zergs into thinking Mutas aren't viable, or else I'm just going to have to keep all-inning every time I scout a Spire. Good Muta Zergs can't be beaten in macro. I know how QQ-ish that sounds, but I firmly believe that it's impossible, after having played it quite a lot and watching a lot of replays.
Found this nice little sandbox demonstration video fhe Phoenix upgrade in action vs. Mutas.
Long story short: the difference in unmicroed upgraded phoenixes vs microed upgraded phoenixes is noticable but fairly small. But when you actually attempt to micro them both, the difference is huge--the normal Phoenixes still die quite quickly even with active micro, but the upgraded Phoenixes can kite continuously while taking next to no damage, and since they aren't taking losses they just mow through the muta ball at a really high rate (skip to 2:45 in the video to see what happens with even basic micro when you use upgrades phoenixes vs mutas).
Is there anyone who still doubts the impact this will have?
100% useless if you don't open double Stargate.
And if you do, then the Zerg makes two infestors and you lose all your phoenix to chain fungals x.x
Although it's nice to know that killing off mutas could hypothetically be that easy (regarding the upgraded phoenix micro video) if I wanted to be tech-trapped into using Protoss air only x.x
I'll probably be sticking to blink + storm to counter mutas.
To be honest, I'm just hoping that this buff metagames Zergs into thinking Mutas aren't viable, or else I'm just going to have to keep all-inning every time I scout a Spire. Good Muta Zergs can't be beaten in macro. I know how QQ-ish that sounds, but I firmly believe that it's impossible, after having played it quite a lot and watching a lot of replays.
I also think that this will prove as more of deterrant than anything else. I think it'll make Zergs more likely to tech switch from mutas to something else, which may balance out ZvP a bit more (as it's currently the most one-sided match-up, in Zerg's favor). The threat of this upgrade may be more beneficial for Protoss than the actual upgrade.
btw to all people including incontrol, the range upgrade for pheonix is not for mutas, its in late game vs corrupters and broods, the range will help to kite corrupters and the range will help to not get fungled when trageting broods.
On February 23 2012 02:00 naut1c wrote: Why is every terran whining about late game vs Z now. try out seeker missiles. its imba. spread your vikings. emp infestors
Boy, I sure love spending 400 gas plus getting 2 upgrades and still having to wait for energy to charge so that I can kill 1 brood lord, assuming my range 3 spells land without me getting shot first. Plus, when teh ultra switch comes, I can spend 1000 gas per ultra, assuming I have teh energy!
EPT
