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Combination of overabundant and too effective cheese and terrible Bnet infrastructure. At least that's what turned me and my entire group of sc buddies off.
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Blizzard really made this game as non userfriendly as possible. At least they should allow community mods. I suppose all the good stuff will come at a price with HOTS. Really milking the fanbase for all they're worth.
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On February 20 2012 07:49 IMoperator wrote:
Whenever I play it's either: a. Holding off an all in (3 gate void, 4 gate, 3 gate immortal, 1/1/1 tank marine viking, reaper/hellion drop, baneling bust, roach bust, 10 minute roach bane bust) or b. Extremely long games where I lose vs. either mass broodlord/ultra and infestors, or colossus templar.
This is exactly why I hate playing Terran...
Which is exactly why I hate B.net 2.0 because the only way to switch race is to spend another 60 bucks.
We need automated tournaments, one extra ID for casual fun play, and a way to host custom games that DO NOT auto start.
If your reading at all blizz, those 3 would help a ton.
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On February 21 2012 07:39 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 07:23 Zeroxk wrote:On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 19 2012 17:51 ZiegFeld wrote:
I don't get why you people stop playing below top Masters level though. Cheeses are equivalent to free wins, which allows you to play better players that don't cheese.
Unless your skill level doesn't permit you to block cheeses, in which case you would probably lose every single game against skilled macro players. There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid. Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2. How many cheeses can you name that are both "safe" and not an all-in? (very important to distinguish between cheese and all-in) Calling sc2 a cheesefest? Really? Remember proxy rax from BOTH players in a proleague game last week or so? Or Flash's knack for bunker rushing/proxy rax? On February 21 2012 07:22 Disastorm wrote:On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 19 2012 17:51 ZiegFeld wrote:
I don't get why you people stop playing below top Masters level though. Cheeses are equivalent to free wins, which allows you to play better players that don't cheese.
Unless your skill level doesn't permit you to block cheeses, in which case you would probably lose every single game against skilled macro players. There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid. Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2. I have to agree with this guy, I know people that quit SC2 for the above reasons. Sure there was cheese in BW but theres no way you can even argue that it can compare with the insane cheese amount in sc2 (and the insane cheese strength in sc2). You too, how many games can you give me that someone lost to cheese in the gsl in the past weeks? Remember I'm talking about cheese according to the liquipedia definition http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Cheese and NOT all-ins The main differences between BW cheese and SC2 cheese, In BW: Less skill discrepancy between executing the cheese and defending from it. The higher the skill discrepancy of the cheese, the easier it is to scout it. And the main one, Cheese will lose to standard play erring on the safe sde. I can't emphasize this enough. If a player plays entirely standard and scouts correctly, they'll win vs any cheese in BW hands down. Cheese is used to punish players who go for the cut corners and going super econ heavy. If you want proof of this, try getting to B+ on iccup by ONLY doing cheese builds like 6-pool, something people have demonstrated as not only possibly, but EASY to do in SC2 (see GM by 6-pooling thread)
It's the same in SC2, safe standard play wins against cheese. You're not saying that the reactor hellion double CC vs a roach bling bust is considered safe are you? Or any FE build vs proxy is safe?
Since it's so easy to get GM only by 6-pooling, why isn't for example KR GM ladder filled with 6poolers? The SC2 ladder has not matured, 2%(!) of the ladder population is in masters which is where most people consider you to be good.
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You'll never make ladder less stressful.
This is a duel game. If you lose you can only blame yourself.
Why do you think theres so much haters / BMers in LoL and any team game ?
Its because you've someone to blame when you lose.
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Starcraft 2 is just way too stressful to get used to at first. A lot of people can't get over the hump, and stop playing, it's fairly simple. A lot of games are just way too easy, or very simple to understand, Starcraft is either at first.
I don't think it really matters though, as long as there are pros, and people watching them, casuals won't matter too much as long as SC2 as an Esport/spectator sport can bring in viewers.
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On February 21 2012 08:12 Zeroxk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 07:39 Shiladie wrote:On February 21 2012 07:23 Zeroxk wrote:On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 19 2012 17:51 ZiegFeld wrote:
I don't get why you people stop playing below top Masters level though. Cheeses are equivalent to free wins, which allows you to play better players that don't cheese.
Unless your skill level doesn't permit you to block cheeses, in which case you would probably lose every single game against skilled macro players. There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid. Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2. How many cheeses can you name that are both "safe" and not an all-in? (very important to distinguish between cheese and all-in) Calling sc2 a cheesefest? Really? Remember proxy rax from BOTH players in a proleague game last week or so? Or Flash's knack for bunker rushing/proxy rax? On February 21 2012 07:22 Disastorm wrote:On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 19 2012 17:51 ZiegFeld wrote:
I don't get why you people stop playing below top Masters level though. Cheeses are equivalent to free wins, which allows you to play better players that don't cheese.
Unless your skill level doesn't permit you to block cheeses, in which case you would probably lose every single game against skilled macro players. There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid. Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2. I have to agree with this guy, I know people that quit SC2 for the above reasons. Sure there was cheese in BW but theres no way you can even argue that it can compare with the insane cheese amount in sc2 (and the insane cheese strength in sc2). You too, how many games can you give me that someone lost to cheese in the gsl in the past weeks? Remember I'm talking about cheese according to the liquipedia definition http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Cheese and NOT all-ins The main differences between BW cheese and SC2 cheese, In BW: Less skill discrepancy between executing the cheese and defending from it. The higher the skill discrepancy of the cheese, the easier it is to scout it. And the main one, Cheese will lose to standard play erring on the safe sde. I can't emphasize this enough. If a player plays entirely standard and scouts correctly, they'll win vs any cheese in BW hands down. Cheese is used to punish players who go for the cut corners and going super econ heavy. If you want proof of this, try getting to B+ on iccup by ONLY doing cheese builds like 6-pool, something people have demonstrated as not only possibly, but EASY to do in SC2 (see GM by 6-pooling thread) It's the same in SC2, safe standard play wins against cheese. You're not saying that the reactor hellion double CC vs a roach bling bust is considered safe are you? Or any FE build vs proxy is safe? Since it's so easy to get GM only by 6-pooling, why isn't for example KR GM ladder filled with 6poolers? The SC2 ladder has not matured, 2%(!) of the ladder population is in masters which is where most people consider you to be good.
Actually Masters is more like 6% now.
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I admire all the ideas for automated tournaments, I think that could be a lot of fun, but there would need to be the community portion already present to get it to work. I don't know if it falls completely on Blizzard to architect an all-inclusive social interface, especially with stiff competition. I believe it would also warrant much more complaints.
TL has a lot to offer for the SC2 community, and it is not without effort.
The users and players are going to get out of the community what they put into it. Consider it a freedom, not a sanction.
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Ladder is too stressfull.
Im always full of anxiety when queing for a match. The thought of knowing that im being matched against someone who is supposed to be of "equal" skill as you is very jarring on my nerves etc.
What I enjoyed about Broodwar was that the only way you could gauge another person's skill was checking their record for amount of games played. You didnt care if it was 2000+ or 300+ games played, cause amount of games played does not determine your skill. This blind side of gauging someones skill is what kept me stress free in Broodwar ladder. I always enjoyed playing games that were either a total steamroll, or a super hard and a very good game. You got a mix of both, and thats what I feel is lacking.
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On February 21 2012 08:01 Kickboxer wrote:
Combination of overabundant and too effective cheese and terrible Bnet infrastructure. At least that's what turned me and my entire group of sc buddies off.
... and me and my friends as well.
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On February 21 2012 08:19 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 08:12 Zeroxk wrote:On February 21 2012 07:39 Shiladie wrote:On February 21 2012 07:23 Zeroxk wrote:On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 19 2012 17:51 ZiegFeld wrote:
I don't get why you people stop playing below top Masters level though. Cheeses are equivalent to free wins, which allows you to play better players that don't cheese.
Unless your skill level doesn't permit you to block cheeses, in which case you would probably lose every single game against skilled macro players. There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid. Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2. How many cheeses can you name that are both "safe" and not an all-in? (very important to distinguish between cheese and all-in) Calling sc2 a cheesefest? Really? Remember proxy rax from BOTH players in a proleague game last week or so? Or Flash's knack for bunker rushing/proxy rax? On February 21 2012 07:22 Disastorm wrote:On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
[quote]
There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid.
Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2. I have to agree with this guy, I know people that quit SC2 for the above reasons. Sure there was cheese in BW but theres no way you can even argue that it can compare with the insane cheese amount in sc2 (and the insane cheese strength in sc2). You too, how many games can you give me that someone lost to cheese in the gsl in the past weeks? Remember I'm talking about cheese according to the liquipedia definition http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Cheese and NOT all-ins The main differences between BW cheese and SC2 cheese, In BW: Less skill discrepancy between executing the cheese and defending from it. The higher the skill discrepancy of the cheese, the easier it is to scout it. And the main one, Cheese will lose to standard play erring on the safe sde. I can't emphasize this enough. If a player plays entirely standard and scouts correctly, they'll win vs any cheese in BW hands down. Cheese is used to punish players who go for the cut corners and going super econ heavy. If you want proof of this, try getting to B+ on iccup by ONLY doing cheese builds like 6-pool, something people have demonstrated as not only possibly, but EASY to do in SC2 (see GM by 6-pooling thread) It's the same in SC2, safe standard play wins against cheese. You're not saying that the reactor hellion double CC vs a roach bling bust is considered safe are you? Or any FE build vs proxy is safe? Since it's so easy to get GM only by 6-pooling, why isn't for example KR GM ladder filled with 6poolers? The SC2 ladder has not matured, 2%(!) of the ladder population is in masters which is where most people consider you to be good. Actually Masters is more like 6% now.
Source?
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On February 21 2012 08:24 Emnjay808 wrote:
Ladder is too stressfull.
Im always full of anxiety when queing for a match. The thought of knowing that im being matched against someone who is supposed to be of "equal" skill as you is very jarring on my nerves etc.
What I enjoyed about Broodwar was that the only way you could gauge another person's skill was checking their record for amount of games played. You didnt care if it was 2000+ or 300+ games played, cause amount of games played does not determine your skill. This blind side of gauging someones skill is what kept me stress free in Broodwar ladder. I always enjoyed playing games that were either a total steamroll, or a super hard and a very good game. You got a mix of both, and thats what I feel is lacking.
You still get that mix in SC2 if you play a lot. It seems like the longer it takes for the game to find me an opponent, the more likely it is that the game will be one-sided. Plus, people are simply not consistent -- there is a high likelihood that you or your opponent (or both) will make a big mistake that leads to a one-sided game.
I used to be scared to ladder -- now I have the opposite problem. I'll keep requeuing on losing streaks, far after my brain is too tired to play optimally. I think I need to play fewer games and only play when I can focus hard -- and train my brain to focus more.
As for the OP, I'm not worried about people disappearing as long as I still get games when I hit "find match."
My new theory about "ladder anxiety" is that people who worry about laddering don't have enough real problems in their lives. Laddering usually relaxes me. Drink a beer, relax, find match, glhf.
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I've played about 75 games over the past 6 weeks or so, and I think I've only been cheesed once... zerg tried to 6 pool me in aZvZ, held it off pretty easily with a 14 pool. Not sure why you guys say you get cheesed every game or whatever. Or what you consider cheese, maybe. :/
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On February 21 2012 08:39 prOpSaiton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 08:19 Psychobabas wrote:On February 21 2012 08:12 Zeroxk wrote:On February 21 2012 07:39 Shiladie wrote:On February 21 2012 07:23 Zeroxk wrote:On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
[quote]
There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid.
Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2. How many cheeses can you name that are both "safe" and not an all-in? (very important to distinguish between cheese and all-in) Calling sc2 a cheesefest? Really? Remember proxy rax from BOTH players in a proleague game last week or so? Or Flash's knack for bunker rushing/proxy rax? On February 21 2012 07:22 Disastorm wrote:On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:
[quote]
lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier...
Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2. I have to agree with this guy, I know people that quit SC2 for the above reasons. Sure there was cheese in BW but theres no way you can even argue that it can compare with the insane cheese amount in sc2 (and the insane cheese strength in sc2). You too, how many games can you give me that someone lost to cheese in the gsl in the past weeks? Remember I'm talking about cheese according to the liquipedia definition http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Cheese and NOT all-ins The main differences between BW cheese and SC2 cheese, In BW: Less skill discrepancy between executing the cheese and defending from it. The higher the skill discrepancy of the cheese, the easier it is to scout it. And the main one, Cheese will lose to standard play erring on the safe sde. I can't emphasize this enough. If a player plays entirely standard and scouts correctly, they'll win vs any cheese in BW hands down. Cheese is used to punish players who go for the cut corners and going super econ heavy. If you want proof of this, try getting to B+ on iccup by ONLY doing cheese builds like 6-pool, something people have demonstrated as not only possibly, but EASY to do in SC2 (see GM by 6-pooling thread) It's the same in SC2, safe standard play wins against cheese. You're not saying that the reactor hellion double CC vs a roach bling bust is considered safe are you? Or any FE build vs proxy is safe? Since it's so easy to get GM only by 6-pooling, why isn't for example KR GM ladder filled with 6poolers? The SC2 ladder has not matured, 2%(!) of the ladder population is in masters which is where most people consider you to be good. Actually Masters is more like 6% now. Source?
http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
I think this is just because of the ladder reset people who are masters are more likely to play frequently and get placed back into their league.
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On February 21 2012 08:39 prOpSaiton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 08:19 Psychobabas wrote:On February 21 2012 08:12 Zeroxk wrote:On February 21 2012 07:39 Shiladie wrote:On February 21 2012 07:23 Zeroxk wrote:On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
[quote]
There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid.
Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2. How many cheeses can you name that are both "safe" and not an all-in? (very important to distinguish between cheese and all-in) Calling sc2 a cheesefest? Really? Remember proxy rax from BOTH players in a proleague game last week or so? Or Flash's knack for bunker rushing/proxy rax? On February 21 2012 07:22 Disastorm wrote:On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:
[quote]
lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier...
Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2. I have to agree with this guy, I know people that quit SC2 for the above reasons. Sure there was cheese in BW but theres no way you can even argue that it can compare with the insane cheese amount in sc2 (and the insane cheese strength in sc2). You too, how many games can you give me that someone lost to cheese in the gsl in the past weeks? Remember I'm talking about cheese according to the liquipedia definition http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Cheese and NOT all-ins The main differences between BW cheese and SC2 cheese, In BW: Less skill discrepancy between executing the cheese and defending from it. The higher the skill discrepancy of the cheese, the easier it is to scout it. And the main one, Cheese will lose to standard play erring on the safe sde. I can't emphasize this enough. If a player plays entirely standard and scouts correctly, they'll win vs any cheese in BW hands down. Cheese is used to punish players who go for the cut corners and going super econ heavy. If you want proof of this, try getting to B+ on iccup by ONLY doing cheese builds like 6-pool, something people have demonstrated as not only possibly, but EASY to do in SC2 (see GM by 6-pooling thread) It's the same in SC2, safe standard play wins against cheese. You're not saying that the reactor hellion double CC vs a roach bling bust is considered safe are you? Or any FE build vs proxy is safe? Since it's so easy to get GM only by 6-pooling, why isn't for example KR GM ladder filled with 6poolers? The SC2 ladder has not matured, 2%(!) of the ladder population is in masters which is where most people consider you to be good. Actually Masters is more like 6% now. Source?
http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
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On February 21 2012 08:44 SoleSteeler wrote:
I've played about 75 games over the past 6 weeks or so, and I think I've only been cheesed once... zerg tried to 6 pool me in aZvZ, held it off pretty easily with a 14 pool. Not sure why you guys say you get cheesed every game or whatever. Or what you consider cheese, maybe. :/
Any attack before 15 minutes is cheese unless you announce that you are attacking at least a minute before you go in.
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On February 21 2012 08:44 SoleSteeler wrote:
I've played about 75 games over the past 6 weeks or so, and I think I've only been cheesed once... zerg tried to 6 pool me in aZvZ, held it off pretty easily with a 14 pool. Not sure why you guys say you get cheesed every game or whatever. Or what you consider cheese, maybe. :/
Yeah this. I very rarely get cheesed, and I'm in Silver, where you see people swear blind every game they play is cheese.
I haven't had any problems finding games, so to say "nobody" is playing ladder any more is well off, and games naturally lose players the longer they go on as people find other games, get lives or whatever. It'll pick back up again when HotS is released, taper off again then get big again as LotV comes out.
Personally, I don't play a huge amount because 1.) Games feel like they take forever (which might be my fault for playing a very passive style  ) and 2.) I'm very active in competitive TF2. Also Skyrim. Goddamn you Skyrim.
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Ladder is stressful? Are you guys serious? By the age of 25 you should be a nervous wreck, if playing a game online makes you stressed. This is just sad and funny at the same time. SC2 not a team game, so you can't hid behind your team mates' skill or lack of such. You are responsible for every move and that is why winning is so rewarding, while losing feels the end of the world, but that is what makes this game exciting.
What SC2 doesn't have is a good social interface and a decent custom game mechanic. I still remember the 1x1 games with obs in Warcraft 3, where you could just hop in, watch the game and have a nice chat with the rest of the observers. Nothing comes close to that in SC2. Even when in a clan it feels empty. I want the clan wars to come back, clan chat and a normal, unregulated custom game interface. The current one is just BAD.
Yesterday I got bored of playing 1x1 and tried 2x2. Boring. Then some marine arena. Boring. Then I went to teamliquid chat channel. 100 people nothing interesting, just people requesting 1x1 practise games.
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On February 21 2012 08:19 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 08:12 Zeroxk wrote:On February 21 2012 07:39 Shiladie wrote:On February 21 2012 07:23 Zeroxk wrote:On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 19 2012 17:51 ZiegFeld wrote:
I don't get why you people stop playing below top Masters level though. Cheeses are equivalent to free wins, which allows you to play better players that don't cheese.
Unless your skill level doesn't permit you to block cheeses, in which case you would probably lose every single game against skilled macro players. There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid. Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2. How many cheeses can you name that are both "safe" and not an all-in? (very important to distinguish between cheese and all-in) Calling sc2 a cheesefest? Really? Remember proxy rax from BOTH players in a proleague game last week or so? Or Flash's knack for bunker rushing/proxy rax? On February 21 2012 07:22 Disastorm wrote:On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
[quote]
There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid.
Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2. I have to agree with this guy, I know people that quit SC2 for the above reasons. Sure there was cheese in BW but theres no way you can even argue that it can compare with the insane cheese amount in sc2 (and the insane cheese strength in sc2). You too, how many games can you give me that someone lost to cheese in the gsl in the past weeks? Remember I'm talking about cheese according to the liquipedia definition http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Cheese and NOT all-ins The main differences between BW cheese and SC2 cheese, In BW: Less skill discrepancy between executing the cheese and defending from it. The higher the skill discrepancy of the cheese, the easier it is to scout it. And the main one, Cheese will lose to standard play erring on the safe sde. I can't emphasize this enough. If a player plays entirely standard and scouts correctly, they'll win vs any cheese in BW hands down. Cheese is used to punish players who go for the cut corners and going super econ heavy. If you want proof of this, try getting to B+ on iccup by ONLY doing cheese builds like 6-pool, something people have demonstrated as not only possibly, but EASY to do in SC2 (see GM by 6-pooling thread) It's the same in SC2, safe standard play wins against cheese. You're not saying that the reactor hellion double CC vs a roach bling bust is considered safe are you? Or any FE build vs proxy is safe? Since it's so easy to get GM only by 6-pooling, why isn't for example KR GM ladder filled with 6poolers? The SC2 ladder has not matured, 2%(!) of the ladder population is in masters which is where most people consider you to be good. Actually Masters is more like 6% now.
...I guess that explains how I got into Masters this season.
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All games lose players over time. It's natural. Most people just play a game for the single player, dabble with the multiplayer, and then move on to the next new game. Only the hardcore players stick with a game for years. BW for example, was almost exclusively hardcore players by 2009. Even a D rank player was probably a Diamond+ SC2 player.
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EPT
