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On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 19 2012 17:51 ZiegFeld wrote:
I don't get why you people stop playing below top Masters level though. Cheeses are equivalent to free wins, which allows you to play better players that don't cheese.
Unless your skill level doesn't permit you to block cheeses, in which case you would probably lose every single game against skilled macro players. There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid. Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed.
in BW,
1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options.
2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save.
3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist.
BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2.
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On February 13 2012 23:14 IOvEggY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 23:10 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
I guess it is because the lack of community the game has. im guessing team liquid is not a community.
SC2 community is the best. Also look read the top of the website under the massive team liquid logo
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A lot of my friends went from being really into 1v1 to being more into custom 1v1 obs or team games. The ladder anxiety got to them. They still love SC but they're happy where they're at and aren't looking to get much better at the game.
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I went back to playing BW, because i think the gameplay is better.
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On February 21 2012 03:46 Honeybadger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 17:21 honkeybeef wrote:
Low master, played 15 games today, not 1 cheese. Back in diamond, 1/30 games cheese. SC is fun. America (Im American) has a lot of apathetic whiners and good for nothings that like life handed to them on a plate, I seriously don't know why half of the people in this thread play the game, are on TL, or post excuses why not to play a game (like not playing is a bad thing, gtfo or stfu)... TL is a place people come to grow and get better, not to whine about balance and "cheese". There is no cheese, just get better, its not the game its you that sucks. more gg more skill.
this threads makes me weep and needs to die, like all the whining in it... Wow, you are single-handedly the most insensitive person I have ever seen. Ever hear about people with anxiety? BM (which there is TONS of) profoundly affects me. Not to mention your evidence is completely anecdotal. I don't cheese, but I get cheesed at least half of my games.
Its a good thing HoneyBadger dont give a damn hahah (meme, not more insensitivity)
1. If BM bothers you that much block players when you enter a game, although that might get lonely.
2. Dont let losses get you down, win rate doesnt matter if you look at the long run. (getting masters or something)
3. Tell yourself there is no cheese, just builds, and that you should have scouted better. Learn from it and move on.
Anxiety used to bother me and this is what I did to fix it, hope it helps!
Also being the most insensitive person you have ever met on the internet is quite the achievement, so I guess I'll just take it as a compliment or world record or something haha
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Reason why i dont play is i try to have fun games.. which the ladder does not give me get cheesed 80 percent of the time from players who just try to get ladder points and not try to get good. So i play customs which is far more better and funner i believe
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It's easy to not play and keep your delusions of grandeur. I used to be one of these people, I'd placed into diamond every season accept the first, where I quickly got diamond, but I never really came to terms with my skill level. I used to always say I didn't play 1v1s because it was a cheese fest, something many of people here are saying. However, I feel like this is just a cowardly way of hiding from your true fear of losing, which is what all ladder anxiety boils down to. It wasn't until I realized this, and started actually playing the game, that I finished my first season without a bonus pool, and was consequently promoted to masters. There are many people I know that play 4v4 randoms instead of 1v1s. This is because it allows them to blame their failures on others. Starcraft 1v1s is a humbling experience, if you lose you have to accept that your opponent outplayed you, regardless of whether you lost to a dark templar(the most rage inducing experience ever) or you lost in a 50 minute macro game.
I've noticed that the people who don't play much, are the people who have the greatest fear of losing. There are many excuses people make for losses, cheese, imbalance, etc. This is why bad players never watch thier replays, and instead just exclaim angrily, "I only lost because I forgot detection, and he's a DT rushing scrub." When instead they should be saying, "What can I do to fix this, I need to watch the replay to see what I could have done to scout better or to fit a turret into my build." It's amazing, as a player, who used to not play much and wallow in diamond grandeur, to realize how much accepting your losses actually helps you. You start to realize, that it's pretty easy to tell when a protoss is DT rushing, and then all the sudden you realize 1 base plays don't scare you, and then suddenly, your whole cheese problem is gone. [i]Because you learned how to stop it[i].I think it's important to those fearful of the ladder to just sit down and play 10 games in a row, no matter what happens, and just get over your fear. If your posting in a starcraft gaming forum, then clearly you care about this game enough to put in the time to improve.
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On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 19 2012 17:51 ZiegFeld wrote:
I don't get why you people stop playing below top Masters level though. Cheeses are equivalent to free wins, which allows you to play better players that don't cheese.
Unless your skill level doesn't permit you to block cheeses, in which case you would probably lose every single game against skilled macro players. There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid. Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2.
bunker rush is a cheese .. wtff
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Getting tired of playing the same strategies and same builds game in and game out. Much prefer customs over laddering.
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On February 21 2012 06:46 Blindo wrote:
There are many people I know that play 4v4 randoms instead of 1v1s. This is because it allows them to blame their failures on others. Starcraft 1v1s is a humbling experience, if you lose you have to accept that your opponent outplayed you, regardless of whether you lost to a dark templar(the most rage inducing experience ever) or you lost in a 50 minute macro game.
I'd bet you there's another better reason why most people don't play 4v4 instead of 1v1.
Let me tell you a much better theory:
1v1 is lonely. For the most people this is what happens: you play a game, you get (mostly) bm'ed, the game ends and you click to find another game. No chat, no interaction, nothing. Feeling lonely sucks a lot. And the few human interactions are negative. So lack of good human interaction is a big disadvantage of 1v1.
Another difference is that in team games, the fun factor is bigger than the pressure to win. You're with other people, some in your team. You feel good and connected. For that time while the game lasts you're fighting for the same purpose. In FPS, Team Deathmatches, Capture the flags and other team game modes, are much more popular than Free For All. And even in FFA, you're not going 1v1, it's 1vX, so it's not so lonely and not so much in-your-face-1v1. Everyone knows 1v1 is the most intense type of game, that's why it's by far the one who people complain about ladder fear.
Being that most people play games to have fun, both feeling lonely, bm'ed, and stress because of pressure to win make it hard to accomplish that goal.
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I DO JUST GOT 100 WINS WOOOOOOOO ON LADDER MASTERS 1v1 !!!
Terrible record but I did it!@!@@!
Hopefully Im the first person to get 100 wins
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On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 19 2012 17:51 ZiegFeld wrote:
I don't get why you people stop playing below top Masters level though. Cheeses are equivalent to free wins, which allows you to play better players that don't cheese.
Unless your skill level doesn't permit you to block cheeses, in which case you would probably lose every single game against skilled macro players. There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid. Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2.
Some people actually enjoy the fact that SC2 games are closer to 10min average than to 20.
Heavy agression build are fun.
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On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 19 2012 17:51 ZiegFeld wrote:
I don't get why you people stop playing below top Masters level though. Cheeses are equivalent to free wins, which allows you to play better players that don't cheese.
Unless your skill level doesn't permit you to block cheeses, in which case you would probably lose every single game against skilled macro players. There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid. Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2.
I have to agree with this guy, I know people that quit SC2 for the above reasons. Sure there was cheese in BW but theres no way you can even argue that it can compare with the insane cheese amount in sc2 (and the insane cheese strength in sc2).
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On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 19 2012 17:51 ZiegFeld wrote:
I don't get why you people stop playing below top Masters level though. Cheeses are equivalent to free wins, which allows you to play better players that don't cheese.
Unless your skill level doesn't permit you to block cheeses, in which case you would probably lose every single game against skilled macro players. There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid. Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2.
How many cheeses can you name that are both "safe" and not an all-in? (very important to distinguish between cheese and all-in)
Calling sc2 a cheesefest? Really? Remember proxy rax from BOTH players in a proleague game last week or so? Or Flash's knack for bunker rushing/proxy rax?
On February 21 2012 07:22 Disastorm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 19 2012 17:51 ZiegFeld wrote:
I don't get why you people stop playing below top Masters level though. Cheeses are equivalent to free wins, which allows you to play better players that don't cheese.
Unless your skill level doesn't permit you to block cheeses, in which case you would probably lose every single game against skilled macro players. There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid. Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2. I have to agree with this guy, I know people that quit SC2 for the above reasons. Sure there was cheese in BW but theres no way you can even argue that it can compare with the insane cheese amount in sc2 (and the insane cheese strength in sc2).
You too, how many games can you give me that someone lost to cheese in the gsl in the past weeks? Remember I'm talking about cheese according to the liquipedia definition http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Cheese and NOT all-ins
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Haven't read the whole thread, so not sure if this has been mentioned before, but I quit laddering because of bnet 2.0. Back in WC3 I could play for a long time, but I usually had something in between games. Like a chat with people in our private channel, or there'd be some custom 1v1 going which I could obs. After that I'd ladder a few games again, and so on.
With SC2 this just doesn't happen at all. All you can do is play your games, and there's hardly any sense of community around the actual battle.net. This kinda got boring for me after a few months. I still follow tournaments/day9/sotg though.
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On February 21 2012 06:50 jupiter6 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 19 2012 17:51 ZiegFeld wrote:
I don't get why you people stop playing below top Masters level though. Cheeses are equivalent to free wins, which allows you to play better players that don't cheese.
Unless your skill level doesn't permit you to block cheeses, in which case you would probably lose every single game against skilled macro players. There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid. Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2. bunker rush is a cheese .. wtff
This proves the point entirely, in SC2 it is safe enough it isn't even considered a cheese by most players. This is due to the bunker salvage and a number of other factors. In BW a bunker rush was a commitment, in SC2 it's become standard play, yet they still have a decent chance to instant-win in the non-masters/GM leagues, simply because they are easy to execute and hard to hold off. This is just to show the current state of the game, and isn't a comment on racial balance (i'm aware if Z can get away with FE unpunished at high levels they run wild etc, that's not the point). I'd prefer that no strat with such a high skill discrepancy (low to execute high to defend) exist at all, much less be something a race is almost forced to do in certain situations.
If you told me bunker rushes would be the standard in SC2 back a few months before beta I would have laughed, then cried, then stayed playing BW...
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On February 21 2012 07:23 Zeroxk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 19 2012 17:51 ZiegFeld wrote:
I don't get why you people stop playing below top Masters level though. Cheeses are equivalent to free wins, which allows you to play better players that don't cheese.
Unless your skill level doesn't permit you to block cheeses, in which case you would probably lose every single game against skilled macro players. There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid. Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2. How many cheeses can you name that are both "safe" and not an all-in? (very important to distinguish between cheese and all-in) Calling sc2 a cheesefest? Really? Remember proxy rax from BOTH players in a proleague game last week or so? Or Flash's knack for bunker rushing/proxy rax? Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 07:22 Disastorm wrote:On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 19 2012 17:51 ZiegFeld wrote:
I don't get why you people stop playing below top Masters level though. Cheeses are equivalent to free wins, which allows you to play better players that don't cheese.
Unless your skill level doesn't permit you to block cheeses, in which case you would probably lose every single game against skilled macro players. There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid. Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2. I have to agree with this guy, I know people that quit SC2 for the above reasons. Sure there was cheese in BW but theres no way you can even argue that it can compare with the insane cheese amount in sc2 (and the insane cheese strength in sc2). You too, how many games can you give me that someone lost to cheese in the gsl in the past weeks? Remember I'm talking about cheese according to the liquipedia definition http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Cheese and NOT all-ins
The main differences between BW cheese and SC2 cheese, In BW:
Less skill discrepancy between executing the cheese and defending from it.
The higher the skill discrepancy of the cheese, the easier it is to scout it.
And the main one, Cheese will lose to standard play erring on the safe sde. I can't emphasize this enough. If a player plays entirely standard and scouts correctly, they'll win vs any cheese in BW hands down. Cheese is used to punish players who go for the cut corners and going super econ heavy. If you want proof of this, try getting to B+ on iccup by ONLY doing cheese builds like 6-pool, something people have demonstrated as not only possibly, but EASY to do in SC2 (see GM by 6-pooling thread)
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which cheese ever works if the player "scouts correctly"? im sure all the sc2 pros are lining up to find the cheese that works even when scouted
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Tired of losing to stupid crap. A lot of aspects in this game such as the deathball should not exist. Hence why i've returned to Broodwar.
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On February 21 2012 06:50 jupiter6 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 04:18 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 18:02 TheRealFluid wrote:On February 20 2012 17:54 KULA_u wrote:On February 20 2012 01:32 HuKPOWA wrote:On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 19 2012 17:51 ZiegFeld wrote:
I don't get why you people stop playing below top Masters level though. Cheeses are equivalent to free wins, which allows you to play better players that don't cheese.
Unless your skill level doesn't permit you to block cheeses, in which case you would probably lose every single game against skilled macro players. There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid. Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. lol bias much? pretty sure six pooling with all ur drones is much easier...no...it is easier... Just b/c u dont know how to hold off protoss cheese doesn't mean you have to say it takes 0 skill :\ sad to see a pro player making such a dumb statement not really, to executing a good 6pool is not really that easy, because making simple mistakes/a simple wall will instantly cost you the game. protoss X-gate all-ins on the other hand don't really require too much micro. (relatively to each other of course) also it really doesn't matter wheter bad player's should advance. the problem is that bad people never get to play normal games because holing off cheese is pretty hard for low level players. and that's really a problem of game design. You are aware that cheese existed in Starcraft Brood War and even Watcraft 3 to a large extent. I cannot tell you how many times I've been cannon and tower rushed. in BW, 1. there weren't even remotely that many cheese options. 2. cheesing usually meant autoloss if countered. in SC2, a lot of cheese like bunkerrushing is pretty save. 3. things like void rays (no zerg T1 anti air beside queens), baneling (bust), warp in (i.e. turbo reinforcements without the risk of proxy gates) or op-rines/salvagable bunkers just didn't exist. BW had some cheese but it was far away from the cheesefest of SC2. bunker rush is a cheese .. wtff
Are you serious wtf
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EPT
