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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 12 2012 19:30 architecture wrote:
Who cares about these macro mechanics? None of them are hard. Looking somewhere every 25s is not hard. Army control and positioning is hard. Multitasking multiple fights is hard.
Every time a Zerg injects, a Terran has to look away to make depots, P has to warpin. What's the difference?
So true, and i ll add to that that arguing about which race's macro is more difficult is completely pointless since you will get different opinions from people who play / have played all the races.
For example, i started with Zerg and whined endlessly about inject and thought T had it easy, when i switched though i found out that having to constantly make buildings / addons / depos and tabing through buildings was much harder than i originally thought. It's a matter of personal preference and has no place in any balance discussion thread IMO.
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On February 12 2012 18:20 demitap wrote:
i think these changes wont solve the problem that terran is so OP in early games. also why the hell you guys cry about snipe, ghosts still remains the strongest unit in game for its cast, at least with this change terrans will have to try a little that just sniping the shit out of everythink that zerg has and than just attack move.
Strongest cast in the game, r u kidding? EMP just takes energy and shields away. FG damages and holds them in place.
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apparently there is a modified version of daybreak, to try out the new patch
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Give an upgrade to Archons in templar archives OR fleet beacon ( even tho fleet beacon doesn't make any sense )
This new ability is the following: Archon will enter siege mode( 3 seconds deploy ).
While in siege mode, the archon cannot move and has double range (6 range). The archon will also be rendered invisible WHILE not atacking. If the archon atacks he will be visible for 5 seconds.
In siege mode the archon splash range is doubled or increased by +50% vs air. 150/150 cost 120 second research.
Although I like the idea of P having to choose modes in some of their units (like the terran sieges tanks) in order to deal with certain compositions (I remember in Alpha stages the Collosi had two attack modes).
This is just silly tho' - along with collusi to mega-own all ground you add siege archons (invisible wall even) to counter all air.
Archons are a viable recycle unit from templars. That's all it should be. Templars already deal fine vs mutalisks.
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Blizzard are so intelligent with their patching...Can't believe no one else thought about making an upgrade for increased range! 
And the mule change is pretty smart too.
And bringing back old APM is really nice, but alot of us has already turned to SC2Gears cause we couldn't be bothered with the useless "cpm" thingie.
But man! I'd much rather have a nerf to protoss ! ZvP is so frustrating and ZvT is already so f...... easy! ;>
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On February 12 2012 08:52 Dalavita wrote:
BFH are awful against chargelots, and they always have been. You're better off spamming reapers.
What? BHF are sick good against chargelots! They cost the same, and utterly rape chargelots. Try like 10 BHF against 10 Chargelots, and you'll see what I'm talking about. No contest.
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Phoenix change is really cool, more stargate play would be awesome to see. Ghost change seems a bit strong though but they certainly needed to be looked at for vZ late game. Was depressing watching T3 zerg armies melt in the GSL
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The change to Snipe really feels like overkill. Ultralisks and Brood Lords were a problem, so they went and nerfed it against Banelings, Marines, workers, Mutalisks...
I really hope they'll reconsider this one.
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On February 12 2012 09:03 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 08:53 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Let me inform you people on the reason why they nerfed the ghost's snipe ability:
In the late game, a lot of the ghosts have 150 energy saved up, if not more. When 2 ghosts can snipe an ultra or broodlord without the Terran losing any units, it's imbalanced. That is effectively removing 4-6 supply of the zerg's army, which is worth roughly 300 minerals and 200 gas, for free. Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
Some may say thats a stretch but let me tell you, it isn't. If you have seen any Terran professionals play, you would know most of them have about 16 ghosts ( If not more ) in the late game versus Zerg. There goes 8 Ultralisks, or 16 Broodlords essentially for free.
Don't waste your time posting a response if you are going to come up with the argument of micro. It is not that micro intesive to pull off. Even if the Terran loses 4 ghosts, he/she is still ahead by miles. We waste our time posting responses about innefective tier 3 units to counter your Tier 3 and tier 2.5 units a.k.a infestors..Have you ever wonder why ppl even if they have an economy advantage stay on marine/tank/medivac with the occasional thor???Because they have nothing to transition to..Get your facts straight.We don't like to base our game on a unit that easily dies to mass tier 1 units anyway.We want viable late game units that capitalize on our mid to late game advantage(if that exists at any given game) I implore you to think before speaking. Terran has units to transition to, here are some examples: Raven, Banshee, Battlecruiser. Terran 's refusing to try and incorporate them into their army is a whole different story. This is why I admire White Ra. He makes use of the underused Carrier and makes it a very viable and powerful unit. Just because Terran's still have yet to discover how to use these units properly is not a valid reason to say " we have nothing to transition into".
Thats right! Protoss got so desperate fighting BL/INf, that they made even the most gimmicky unit in the game (Mothership) work!
There simply is no excuse for not using ravens and BCs (yamato gun). Produce a good mix of ravens, BCs and Vikings, and you will see, that there is hardly anything a zerg can do to stop that composition. Defended by PDDs BCs rape even equal cost hydras and corruptors.
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On February 12 2012 09:11 tobiii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 09:03 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On February 12 2012 08:53 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Let me inform you people on the reason why they nerfed the ghost's snipe ability:
In the late game, a lot of the ghosts have 150 energy saved up, if not more. When 2 ghosts can snipe an ultra or broodlord without the Terran losing any units, it's imbalanced. That is effectively removing 4-6 supply of the zerg's army, which is worth roughly 300 minerals and 200 gas, for free. Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
Some may say thats a stretch but let me tell you, it isn't. If you have seen any Terran professionals play, you would know most of them have about 16 ghosts ( If not more ) in the late game versus Zerg. There goes 8 Ultralisks, or 16 Broodlords essentially for free.
Don't waste your time posting a response if you are going to come up with the argument of micro. It is not that micro intesive to pull off. Even if the Terran loses 4 ghosts, he/she is still ahead by miles. We waste our time posting responses about innefective tier 3 units to counter your Tier 3 and tier 2.5 units a.k.a infestors..Have you ever wonder why ppl even if they have an economy advantage stay on marine/tank/medivac with the occasional thor???Because they have nothing to transition to..Get your facts straight.We don't like to base our game on a unit that easily dies to mass tier 1 units anyway.We want viable late game units that capitalize on our mid to late game advantage(if that exists at any given game) I implore you to think before speaking. Terran has units to transition to, here are some examples: Raven, Banshee, Battlecruiser. Terran 's refusing to try and incorporate them into their army is a whole different story. This is why I admire White Ra. He makes use of the underused Carrier and makes it a very viable and powerful unit. Just because Terran's still have yet to discover how to use these units properly is not a valid reason to say " we have nothing to transition into". Because these Terran T3 Units get owned by the other races' casters like Ultras and Broodlords get owned by Ghosts. They all have energy, so in TvP you get owned by feedback and a couple of storms + Blink kills of the remainder of the Battlecruisers. And in TvZ these units get chain-fungled to death + Corruptor support. So tell me how these units are going to work against any non-dumb opponent.
They are going to work beautifully.
What you need is BCs (which suffer minimal damage from fungal), ravens, some vikings and ghosts, and you are way more powerful against any zerg composition.
And although this terran composition is hard to get, we are talking about "end game" here.
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On February 12 2012 09:22 Naphal wrote:
so "try carriers" or "try doublenydus" please.
There are zerg and toss players, who are experimenting with both. Whitera and HongUn come to mind (carriers).
There are no terrans experimenting with BCs and ravens.
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On February 12 2012 21:09 PureBalls wrote:
There simply is no excuse for not using ravens and BCs (yamato gun). Produce a good mix of ravens, BCs and Vikings, and you will see, that there is hardly anything a zerg can do to stop that composition. Defended by PDDs BCs rape even equal cost hydras and corruptors.
infestors + corruptors own Air vs P and T. ( infestors very strong unit, affordable since mid-game, good vs everything T can do, even vs ghost if properly microed -- see Stephano --, but they get nerfed by 5% while ghosts, only fine vs BL, will be 50% nerfed..... ^^^)
Except mass raven (very difficult to obtain without death earlier), mas air sux vs Z.
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On February 12 2012 21:09 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 09:03 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On February 12 2012 08:53 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 12 2012 08:41 KiLLJoy216 wrote:
Let me inform you people on the reason why they nerfed the ghost's snipe ability:
In the late game, a lot of the ghosts have 150 energy saved up, if not more. When 2 ghosts can snipe an ultra or broodlord without the Terran losing any units, it's imbalanced. That is effectively removing 4-6 supply of the zerg's army, which is worth roughly 300 minerals and 200 gas, for free. Tier 3 units are meant to be the backbone of all the races' army. So when you can remove those units basically for free, there is a problem. After you remove those units all Zerg is left with are Tier 1 units, zerglings, and maybe some infestors and banelings.
Some may say thats a stretch but let me tell you, it isn't. If you have seen any Terran professionals play, you would know most of them have about 16 ghosts ( If not more ) in the late game versus Zerg. There goes 8 Ultralisks, or 16 Broodlords essentially for free.
Don't waste your time posting a response if you are going to come up with the argument of micro. It is not that micro intesive to pull off. Even if the Terran loses 4 ghosts, he/she is still ahead by miles. We waste our time posting responses about innefective tier 3 units to counter your Tier 3 and tier 2.5 units a.k.a infestors..Have you ever wonder why ppl even if they have an economy advantage stay on marine/tank/medivac with the occasional thor???Because they have nothing to transition to..Get your facts straight.We don't like to base our game on a unit that easily dies to mass tier 1 units anyway.We want viable late game units that capitalize on our mid to late game advantage(if that exists at any given game) I implore you to think before speaking. Terran has units to transition to, here are some examples: Raven, Banshee, Battlecruiser. Terran 's refusing to try and incorporate them into their army is a whole different story. This is why I admire White Ra. He makes use of the underused Carrier and makes it a very viable and powerful unit. Just because Terran's still have yet to discover how to use these units properly is not a valid reason to say " we have nothing to transition into". Thats right! Protoss got so desperate fighting BL/INf, that they made even the most gimmicky unit in the game (Mothership) work! There simply is no excuse for not using ravens and BCs (yamato gun). Produce a good mix of ravens, BCs and Vikings, and you will see, that there is hardly anything a zerg can do to stop that composition. Defended by PDDs BCs rape even equal cost hydras and corruptors.
That is not true at all. I just tried this this in the unit tester just to make sure. Corruptors evaporate Battlecruicers even with PDD. Please remember that Corruptors only cost 100 gas compared to Ravens 200 and Battlecruicers 300.
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So instead of a reasonable change that phoenix range is, you propose pure sci-fi invisible siege mode archons?
Also
"Mutas currently are a uninteresting and boring unit when massed, their only purpose is harass and counter attack as soon as Protoss leaves it's base."
Im curious, if you find mutas uniteresting, tell me, which unit is interesting to you?
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On February 12 2012 21:19 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 09:22 Naphal wrote:
so "try carriers" or "try doublenydus" please. There are zerg and toss players, who are experimenting with both. Whitera and HongUn come to mind (carriers). There are no terrans experimenting with BCs and ravens.
lol
We experimented them since beta, dude.
For a raven exemple you can see Brat_Ok vs Nestea on shakuras @ blizzcon.
Beastyqt or even Kas incorporate them more and more in their late game vs Z/T.
For BC.... TLO, Beastyqt, all T in TvT, used to incorporate them. They are just overall bad vs Z, and we simply need too much costly infrastructure (fusion core, 4 starport, some more armory and upgrades) to do this non-powerful switch.
Btw zerglings/bling counter BC.
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On February 12 2012 17:31 cozzE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 16:56 Sandermatt wrote:On February 12 2012 15:36 mlspmatt wrote:
I occasionally play Toss and Zerg, and I find their macro much more forgiving. If you miss a macro round as Terran, it's gone, you missed it. With Zerg you just spend more larva, with Toss you warp stuff in then chrono and do it again. I wouldn't say terran macro is harder, just less forgiving.
And I'm gonna miss the ghost. I don't think terrans are going to make them much in TvZ if this nurf happens. They're so expensive, and need the two upgrades, and with their output cut in half, investing those resources in Vikings/air upgrades or more Rax might be a better investment.
It's terrible for the game and as a fan. I wanna see more ghosts, not less ghosts.
About your comment on forgiving macro: If you miss it with toss and chrono, you miss whatever else you would have chronoed if you didn't miss the cycle. If you miss an inject as zerg it's gone as well. Terrans can que up the second cycle before the first cycle finishes (you shouldn't que up too much, but still you do not have to wait until the last unit is produced). Neither injects nor warpgate cycles can be qued up. I agree that terrans need a lot of micro in many situations, but their macro surely isn't less forgiving than the one of zergs and protosses. About the changes: I like the mule change. The ghost change seems a little bit extreme. In TvZ they might remain somewhat useful for nukes and emps for infestors, but in uch smaller numbers. In TvT they most likely vanish completly (altough they were already rare). In TvP the change does little, You can no longer snipe zealots but otherwise. I think the range upgrade will actually help protoss, even on the fleet beacon, as protosses build motherships in PvZ anyway. you are totally clueless and don't know how each respective races macro mechanic works. Your talking as if Queuing is a good thing that helps T when this couldn't be any further from the truth. The fact you're bringing queuing into this argument means you cannot conceptualize the top level of play by any means - as queuing for terran is a deathwish, money tied in production buildings = potential buildings/units/upgrades wasted. The only worrisome change will be the ghost change, the rest make sense at the moment for top level play. Things will definitely get a lot harder for diamond and masters level terran users.
As a terran I have to say that queing helps. I have made a macro training map where there is no que option in production buildings. It's hell. The que helps, as you can miss the exact time a unit is complete by 2-5 secs without much dmg. Placing the 2nd unit 2 sec before the 1st is complete helps alot to smooth your macro.
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About the changes - what I think is
1.that the M.U.L.E.'s won't affect the game really that much since T rarely get to the point of dropping ton of M.U.L.E.'s on high yield mineral field but "Blizzard" probably made their calculations better than me (  )
2.About the Snipe: I don't think that what they changed is good because (it's occasional of course) when I went for ghosts in several games vs ling/bling/blord it was all about how you micro your units no matter if you're the Z or the T player.That said I don't know about doing it in professional play and how hard it is to succeed with it or defend against it, but there is also the thing that zealots will survive more shots.After EMP-ing the protoss force the ghost energy is to snipe the Zealots in my opinion and they will have 100 life and it will take 4 shots not 3 which is 25 more energy used.The Snipe still two hits the High Templar.
3.The Phoenix upgrade is nice to have in my opinion, but not much players will opt to go for it, as warping in more Stalkers is easier than going for Starport and then Phoenixes rather than just using Warpgates.Bottom line, I think that this upgrade is nice and it's going to work as intended.
4.The APM/CPM is really nice to keep an eye on when you're watching a replay because you can compare yourself to the player you're watching and see if it's possible to upgrade your skills in some way.
For a new patch that's quite the awesome changes and I don't think none of the players playing a dedicated race should be sad or frustrated about, 'cause it's more balance, balance etc.I don't know what you guys think about the new maps, but in my opinion they are quite nice made and you got to find the way to "deal with it" .
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On February 12 2012 21:19 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 09:22 Naphal wrote:
so "try carriers" or "try doublenydus" please. There are zerg and toss players, who are experimenting with both. Whitera and HongUn come to mind (carriers). There are no terrans experimenting with BCs and ravens.
because BCs are god awful when its dead even against your opponent, cauz 1. u need many starports/armories/fusion core; 2. u cant chronoboost them so they take ages to make and its even longer considering u only have 3-4 staports; 3. u need 3-3 upgrades otherwise they suck against upgraded Z air army; 4. what do u do when ur remaxing into BCs with very little ground army? u cant defend ur bases and u need a shitload of ressources to get BCs out. Terran cant mess around with their units.
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I think the ghost change is horrible and completely untested on their part. Kim said that it will now take 19 snipes to kill an ultra instead of 11 so that you will have to plan that strat further in the future.... As if terran didnt already have a hard enough time reacting to a tech switch! And how often do you see one single ultra? They are a late game unit and usually come after a tech switch or after the zerg has maxed and brought in 5-8 at a time.
Furthermore, marauders have very little place in TvZ because of lings and mutas. Unless the zerg has gone roach already (then he would be a fool to follow with ultras as marauds will already be out) and the terran will likely have either a mech army or a rine tank army and will not really stand a chance against a batch of ultras....
Terrible, horrible, and un-tested change in my opinion. If they want to drop it to 35, then ok... maybe.... but cutting it almost in half is basically a death blow to the snipe ability in TvZ.
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EPT
