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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 12 2012 16:56 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 15:36 mlspmatt wrote:
I occasionally play Toss and Zerg, and I find their macro much more forgiving. If you miss a macro round as Terran, it's gone, you missed it. With Zerg you just spend more larva, with Toss you warp stuff in then chrono and do it again. I wouldn't say terran macro is harder, just less forgiving.
And I'm gonna miss the ghost. I don't think terrans are going to make them much in TvZ if this nurf happens. They're so expensive, and need the two upgrades, and with their output cut in half, investing those resources in Vikings/air upgrades or more Rax might be a better investment.
It's terrible for the game and as a fan. I wanna see more ghosts, not less ghosts.
About your comment on forgiving macro: If you miss it with toss and chrono, you miss whatever else you would have chronoed if you didn't miss the cycle. If you miss an inject as zerg it's gone as well. Terrans can que up the second cycle before the first cycle finishes (you shouldn't que up too much, but still you do not have to wait until the last unit is produced). Neither injects nor warpgate cycles can be qued up. I agree that terrans need a lot of micro in many situations, but their macro surely isn't less forgiving than the one of zergs and protosses. About the changes: I like the mule change. The ghost change seems a little bit extreme. In TvZ they might remain somewhat useful for nukes and emps for infestors, but in uch smaller numbers. In TvT they most likely vanish completly (altough they were already rare). In TvP the change does little, You can no longer snipe zealots but otherwise. I think the range upgrade will actually help protoss, even on the fleet beacon, as protosses build motherships in PvZ anyway.
Your argument is silly.
If you que units, your essentially miss managing your macro, which would be similar to having to use chrono inefeciently or missing injects. It's just bad macro. You're assuming there's no cost to Terran queing units when there clearly is.
Assuming i don't macro perfectly, which I do not, my biggest concern when I mess up is getting units on the field so I don't die. Having two rounds of units qued in my baracks isn't going to do me any good when my opponent shows up to kill me. I'm gonna die.
If I mess up with Zerg, I have much more flexibility in how I spend my larva, or I can have a macro hatch, in any case I find I can get units on the field, quicker, again so i do not die.
Protoss is in between the two. Not as flexable as Zerg but still gives me a way to get units on the field faster with chronoboost of my gates. If my opponent is coming to kill me i don't give a shit if i'm not using my chrono as effecientley as possible, I need units, and I need them NOW. Chrono allows me to do that.
Terran has no way to get units on the field faster if I'm going to die. And again, I can have my units que'd 4 deep but that aint gonna do me any good when my oponent is on my doorstep. I'll take the chronoboost and queen injections to Terrans queing any day. But that's just my opinion.
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On February 12 2012 17:31 cozzE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 16:56 Sandermatt wrote:On February 12 2012 15:36 mlspmatt wrote:
I occasionally play Toss and Zerg, and I find their macro much more forgiving. If you miss a macro round as Terran, it's gone, you missed it. With Zerg you just spend more larva, with Toss you warp stuff in then chrono and do it again. I wouldn't say terran macro is harder, just less forgiving.
And I'm gonna miss the ghost. I don't think terrans are going to make them much in TvZ if this nurf happens. They're so expensive, and need the two upgrades, and with their output cut in half, investing those resources in Vikings/air upgrades or more Rax might be a better investment.
It's terrible for the game and as a fan. I wanna see more ghosts, not less ghosts.
About your comment on forgiving macro: If you miss it with toss and chrono, you miss whatever else you would have chronoed if you didn't miss the cycle. If you miss an inject as zerg it's gone as well. Terrans can que up the second cycle before the first cycle finishes (you shouldn't que up too much, but still you do not have to wait until the last unit is produced). Neither injects nor warpgate cycles can be qued up. I agree that terrans need a lot of micro in many situations, but their macro surely isn't less forgiving than the one of zergs and protosses. About the changes: I like the mule change. The ghost change seems a little bit extreme. In TvZ they might remain somewhat useful for nukes and emps for infestors, but in uch smaller numbers. In TvT they most likely vanish completly (altough they were already rare). In TvP the change does little, You can no longer snipe zealots but otherwise. I think the range upgrade will actually help protoss, even on the fleet beacon, as protosses build motherships in PvZ anyway. you are totally clueless and don't know how each respective races macro mechanic works. Your talking as if Queuing is a good thing that helps T when this couldn't be any further from the truth. The fact you're bringing queuing into this argument means you cannot conceptualize the top level of play by any means - as queuing for terran is a deathwish, money tied in production buildings = potential buildings/units/upgrades wasted. The only worrisome change will be the ghost change, the rest make sense at the moment for top level play. Things will definitely get a lot harder for diamond and masters level terran users.
Queuing up a second set of units close to the completion of the first is still better than missing injects - or not using the larvae that you have saved up (the basic larva generation stops on a hatchery when you have more than 3). The first means that you are floating a bit of resources (though not much, since you can queue it up a couple of seconds before the completion of the previous set of units), whilst a missed inject means that you literally lose the production time.
Also, keep in mind that your hatcheries won't be synced up if you hit all your injects, especially early on, it can drastically change your unit production if you wait until they are.
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On February 12 2012 17:31 cozzE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 16:56 Sandermatt wrote:On February 12 2012 15:36 mlspmatt wrote:
I occasionally play Toss and Zerg, and I find their macro much more forgiving. If you miss a macro round as Terran, it's gone, you missed it. With Zerg you just spend more larva, with Toss you warp stuff in then chrono and do it again. I wouldn't say terran macro is harder, just less forgiving.
And I'm gonna miss the ghost. I don't think terrans are going to make them much in TvZ if this nurf happens. They're so expensive, and need the two upgrades, and with their output cut in half, investing those resources in Vikings/air upgrades or more Rax might be a better investment.
It's terrible for the game and as a fan. I wanna see more ghosts, not less ghosts.
About your comment on forgiving macro: If you miss it with toss and chrono, you miss whatever else you would have chronoed if you didn't miss the cycle. If you miss an inject as zerg it's gone as well. Terrans can que up the second cycle before the first cycle finishes (you shouldn't que up too much, but still you do not have to wait until the last unit is produced). Neither injects nor warpgate cycles can be qued up. I agree that terrans need a lot of micro in many situations, but their macro surely isn't less forgiving than the one of zergs and protosses. About the changes: I like the mule change. The ghost change seems a little bit extreme. In TvZ they might remain somewhat useful for nukes and emps for infestors, but in uch smaller numbers. In TvT they most likely vanish completly (altough they were already rare). In TvP the change does little, You can no longer snipe zealots but otherwise. I think the range upgrade will actually help protoss, even on the fleet beacon, as protosses build motherships in PvZ anyway. you are totally clueless and don't know how each respective races macro mechanic works. Your talking as if Queuing is a good thing that helps T when this couldn't be any further from the truth. The fact you're bringing queuing into this argument means you cannot conceptualize the top level of play by any means - as queuing for terran is a deathwish, money tied in production buildings = potential buildings/units/upgrades wasted. The only worrisome change will be the ghost change, the rest make sense at the moment for top level play. Things will definitely get a lot harder for diamond and masters level terran users.
Goody queues up units all the time, and he does fine. Your logic must be flawed.
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On February 12 2012 14:03 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 13:13 BanelingXD wrote:
I still don't understand why they need this kludgey ass Mule nerf when the same thing could be achieved with a longer Mule cooldown.
Terran players shouldn't be able to "energy expo" with mules and 6 CCs as a 4 click action when Zerg and Toss have nothing remotely comparable. Set Mule cast cooldown to 30 secs and this tactic dies. I actually don't mind gold expos, but why do they need 2 gas on everything? Low resource and island maps are badly needed.
Blizzard designed the races to play easy/difficult in different areas of the game. Terran: + easy resource management (MULES), supply management (supply calldown) and detection/scout (scan) - 3 different unit producing structures, need to cycle through them and queue up a unit each all the time, remaxes slow Zerg: + all units produced from a single building, ability to produce a large number of units at the same time - unforgiving macro mechanic (larva inject, missing the timing) Protoss: + free hotkey for all warpgates + can build units anywhere (warp-in), can produce/research faster (chronoboost) - ?
True for terran. But u have to consider this that all that management all comes from energy of CC. So u have to be very strategical what time do u use it. If u call mules and the DT came u lost because u had no detection. If u call supply u don't have for mule etc. So CC energy is one more thing (besides all other) that u have to think of how will u distribute it.
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On February 12 2012 17:40 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 16:56 Sandermatt wrote:On February 12 2012 15:36 mlspmatt wrote:
I occasionally play Toss and Zerg, and I find their macro much more forgiving. If you miss a macro round as Terran, it's gone, you missed it. With Zerg you just spend more larva, with Toss you warp stuff in then chrono and do it again. I wouldn't say terran macro is harder, just less forgiving.
And I'm gonna miss the ghost. I don't think terrans are going to make them much in TvZ if this nurf happens. They're so expensive, and need the two upgrades, and with their output cut in half, investing those resources in Vikings/air upgrades or more Rax might be a better investment.
It's terrible for the game and as a fan. I wanna see more ghosts, not less ghosts.
About your comment on forgiving macro: If you miss it with toss and chrono, you miss whatever else you would have chronoed if you didn't miss the cycle. If you miss an inject as zerg it's gone as well. Terrans can que up the second cycle before the first cycle finishes (you shouldn't que up too much, but still you do not have to wait until the last unit is produced). Neither injects nor warpgate cycles can be qued up. I agree that terrans need a lot of micro in many situations, but their macro surely isn't less forgiving than the one of zergs and protosses. About the changes: I like the mule change. The ghost change seems a little bit extreme. In TvZ they might remain somewhat useful for nukes and emps for infestors, but in uch smaller numbers. In TvT they most likely vanish completly (altough they were already rare). In TvP the change does little, You can no longer snipe zealots but otherwise. I think the range upgrade will actually help protoss, even on the fleet beacon, as protosses build motherships in PvZ anyway. Your argument is silly. If you que units, your essentially miss managing your macro, which would be similar to having to use chrono inefeciently or missing injects. It's just bad macro. You're assuming there's no cost to Terran queing units when there clearly is. Assuming i don't macro perfectly, which I do not, my biggest concern when I mess up is getting units on the field so I don't die. Having two rounds of units qued in my baracks isn't going to do me any good when my opponent shows up to kill me. I'm gonna die. If I mess up with Zerg, I have much more flexibility in how I spend my larva, or I can have a macro hatch, in any case I find I can get units on the field, quicker, again so i do not die. Protoss is in between the two. Not as flexable as Zerg but still gives me a way to get units on the field faster with chronoboost of my gates. If my opponent is coming to kill me i don't give a shit if i'm not using my chrono as effecientley as possible, I need units, and I need them NOW. Chrono allows me to do that. Terran has no way to get units on the field faster if I'm going to die. And again, I can have my units que'd 4 deep but that aint gonna do me any good when my oponent is on my doorstep. I'll take the chronoboost and queen injections to Terrans queing any day. But that's just my opinion.
Because terran can queue he can concentrate on the fight and just use hotkeys to remake army and rally. Protoss for example has to look away from the fight and be in sync with the warpgate warp cycle to be effective.
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There is a stalemate situation in late game, where Terran and Zerg have 200/200 army. And terran starts to abuse ghosts, by sniping expensive units of Zerg. And zerg can't do shit and lose eventually, since terran doesnt lose anything.
Thats what david kim adressing.
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On February 12 2012 17:47 Zdrastochye wrote:
Goody queues up units all the time, and he does fine. Your logic must be flawed.
Nope. Just yours. Good player doing bad things doesn't make bad things okay. This is why he's just an "average" pro.
For the rest of you: While it's established that Zerg doesn't require any micro (very little) it is also more forgiving on macro because (aside from the fact that it's the most simple because Zerg players only use 1 single building) if you get supply blocked you're not actually punished as you can just stockpile larvae. If you forget mules you won't have the production capabilities to utilize them all at once, so a player who doesn't forget them will always have a bigger army.
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i think these changes wont solve the problem that terran is so OP in early games. also why the hell you guys cry about snipe, ghosts still remains the strongest unit in game for its cast, at least with this change terrans will have to try a little that just sniping the shit out of everythink that zerg has and than just attack move.
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My Opinon on Patch:
Just remove the ghost. And Bunkers. And Tanks. And Mules. If Terran still OP, remove Terran.
Terran will find other ways to kill T/P early now.
User was warned for this post
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Russian Federation473 Posts
i feel that they will add something big and unannounced during the ptr testing. they are inclined to this kind of decision-making.
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On February 12 2012 17:40 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 16:56 Sandermatt wrote:On February 12 2012 15:36 mlspmatt wrote:
I occasionally play Toss and Zerg, and I find their macro much more forgiving. If you miss a macro round as Terran, it's gone, you missed it. With Zerg you just spend more larva, with Toss you warp stuff in then chrono and do it again. I wouldn't say terran macro is harder, just less forgiving.
And I'm gonna miss the ghost. I don't think terrans are going to make them much in TvZ if this nurf happens. They're so expensive, and need the two upgrades, and with their output cut in half, investing those resources in Vikings/air upgrades or more Rax might be a better investment.
It's terrible for the game and as a fan. I wanna see more ghosts, not less ghosts.
About your comment on forgiving macro: If you miss it with toss and chrono, you miss whatever else you would have chronoed if you didn't miss the cycle. If you miss an inject as zerg it's gone as well. Terrans can que up the second cycle before the first cycle finishes (you shouldn't que up too much, but still you do not have to wait until the last unit is produced). Neither injects nor warpgate cycles can be qued up. I agree that terrans need a lot of micro in many situations, but their macro surely isn't less forgiving than the one of zergs and protosses. About the changes: I like the mule change. The ghost change seems a little bit extreme. In TvZ they might remain somewhat useful for nukes and emps for infestors, but in uch smaller numbers. In TvT they most likely vanish completly (altough they were already rare). In TvP the change does little, You can no longer snipe zealots but otherwise. I think the range upgrade will actually help protoss, even on the fleet beacon, as protosses build motherships in PvZ anyway. Your argument is silly. If you que units, your essentially miss managing your macro, which would be similar to having to use chrono inefeciently or missing injects. It's just bad macro. You're assuming there's no cost to Terran queing units when there clearly is. Assuming i don't macro perfectly, which I do not, my biggest concern when I mess up is getting units on the field so I don't die. Having two rounds of units qued in my baracks isn't going to do me any good when my opponent shows up to kill me. I'm gonna die. If I mess up with Zerg, I have much more flexibility in how I spend my larva, or I can have a macro hatch, in any case I find I can get units on the field, quicker, again so i do not die. Protoss is in between the two. Not as flexable as Zerg but still gives me a way to get units on the field faster with chronoboost of my gates. If my opponent is coming to kill me i don't give a shit if i'm not using my chrono as effecientley as possible, I need units, and I need them NOW. Chrono allows me to do that. Terran has no way to get units on the field faster if I'm going to die. And again, I can have my units que'd 4 deep but that aint gonna do me any good when my oponent is on my doorstep. I'll take the chronoboost and queen injections to Terrans queing any day. But that's just my opinion.
The point is that you can cue up units, not that you should always do it. You can't say it's not a benefit to have the ability to cue up as it allows you to focus more on other things such as micro. This isn't to say that it doesn't have its cost, but sometimes it can be better to have full attention on your units and less efficient macro.
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On February 12 2012 17:42 iglocska wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 17:31 cozzE wrote:On February 12 2012 16:56 Sandermatt wrote:On February 12 2012 15:36 mlspmatt wrote:
I occasionally play Toss and Zerg, and I find their macro much more forgiving. If you miss a macro round as Terran, it's gone, you missed it. With Zerg you just spend more larva, with Toss you warp stuff in then chrono and do it again. I wouldn't say terran macro is harder, just less forgiving.
And I'm gonna miss the ghost. I don't think terrans are going to make them much in TvZ if this nurf happens. They're so expensive, and need the two upgrades, and with their output cut in half, investing those resources in Vikings/air upgrades or more Rax might be a better investment.
It's terrible for the game and as a fan. I wanna see more ghosts, not less ghosts.
About your comment on forgiving macro: If you miss it with toss and chrono, you miss whatever else you would have chronoed if you didn't miss the cycle. If you miss an inject as zerg it's gone as well. Terrans can que up the second cycle before the first cycle finishes (you shouldn't que up too much, but still you do not have to wait until the last unit is produced). Neither injects nor warpgate cycles can be qued up. I agree that terrans need a lot of micro in many situations, but their macro surely isn't less forgiving than the one of zergs and protosses. About the changes: I like the mule change. The ghost change seems a little bit extreme. In TvZ they might remain somewhat useful for nukes and emps for infestors, but in uch smaller numbers. In TvT they most likely vanish completly (altough they were already rare). In TvP the change does little, You can no longer snipe zealots but otherwise. I think the range upgrade will actually help protoss, even on the fleet beacon, as protosses build motherships in PvZ anyway. you are totally clueless and don't know how each respective races macro mechanic works. Your talking as if Queuing is a good thing that helps T when this couldn't be any further from the truth. The fact you're bringing queuing into this argument means you cannot conceptualize the top level of play by any means - as queuing for terran is a deathwish, money tied in production buildings = potential buildings/units/upgrades wasted. The only worrisome change will be the ghost change, the rest make sense at the moment for top level play. Things will definitely get a lot harder for diamond and masters level terran users. Queuing up a second set of units close to the completion of the first is still better than missing injects - or not using the larvae that you have saved up (the basic larva generation stops on a hatchery when you have more than 3). The first means that you are floating a bit of resources (though not much, since you can queue it up a couple of seconds before the completion of the previous set of units), whilst a missed inject means that you literally lose the production time. Also, keep in mind that your hatcheries won't be synced up if you hit all your injects, especially early on, it can drastically change your unit production if you wait until they are.
Could we please stop on the bronze league topics like "Terran can queue units and protoss warpgate instant ez macro!!". Looks like the B.net forums. Just move your fingers a bit and produce stuff, that's all there is to it.
On topic, imo there is much less TvZ games which ended with 20 ghosts one shotting everything than PvZ games that ended in a mass BLs infestors spine crawlers turtle into "everything dies" from a lucky archon toilet. Blizzard should have looked at this common lategame situation first instead of nerfing ghosts again.
Edit: In fact those 2 vZ lategame problems have the broodlords+infestors part in common. I think infestors are fine where they are, maybe it's time to have a look at the broodlord. Make them slightly less powerful, but slightly faster. You could then tone down Vortex for protoss and let Zerg micro back their BLs against Terran. I think it could work with the right balancing.
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On February 12 2012 14:03 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 13:13 BanelingXD wrote:
I still don't understand why they need this kludgey ass Mule nerf when the same thing could be achieved with a longer Mule cooldown.
Terran players shouldn't be able to "energy expo" with mules and 6 CCs as a 4 click action when Zerg and Toss have nothing remotely comparable. Set Mule cast cooldown to 30 secs and this tactic dies. I actually don't mind gold expos, but why do they need 2 gas on everything? Low resource and island maps are badly needed.
Blizzard designed the races to play easy/difficult in different areas of the game. Terran: + easy resource management (MULES), supply management (supply calldown) and detection/scout (scan) - 3 different unit producing structures, need to cycle through them and queue up a unit each all the time, remaxes slow Zerg: + all units produced from a single building, ability to produce a large number of units at the same time - unforgiving macro mechanic (larva inject, missing the timing) Protoss: + free hotkey for all warpgates + can build units anywhere (warp-in), can produce/research faster (chronoboost) - ?
Protoss also have 3 different unit producing structures, or can you execute the different tactics like
- heavy gateway push
- immortal push
- voidray push
just out of 2 facilities?
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On February 12 2012 18:10 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 17:47 Zdrastochye wrote:
Goody queues up units all the time, and he does fine. Your logic must be flawed. Nope. Just yours. Good player doing bad things doesn't make bad things okay. This is why he's just an "average" pro. For the rest of you: While it's established that Zerg doesn't require any micro (very little) it is also more forgiving on macro because (aside from the fact that it's the most simple because Zerg players only use 1 single building) if you get supply blocked you're not actually punished as you can just stockpile larvae. If you forget mules you won't have the production capabilities to utilize them all at once, so a player who doesn't forget them will always have a bigger army.
I would say Zerg macro is actually the most complex not because of the mechanics but because of the decision making it requires. If you make a bunch of drones then get attacked you just die, that is wayy less forgiving than Terran or Protoss.
Also the same argument can be said for inject as mules, if one player forgets injects but the other doesn't, the player that didn't forget the inject will always have a larger army as they will be ahead in production. In your scenario however, the Terran player who is late on their mules still ends up with the same amount of minerals after they have used all their energy, so they can at least use the minerals for something, whereas the Zerg will only have extra energy on their Queen.
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On February 12 2012 17:40 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 16:56 Sandermatt wrote:On February 12 2012 15:36 mlspmatt wrote:
I occasionally play Toss and Zerg, and I find their macro much more forgiving. If you miss a macro round as Terran, it's gone, you missed it. With Zerg you just spend more larva, with Toss you warp stuff in then chrono and do it again. I wouldn't say terran macro is harder, just less forgiving.
And I'm gonna miss the ghost. I don't think terrans are going to make them much in TvZ if this nurf happens. They're so expensive, and need the two upgrades, and with their output cut in half, investing those resources in Vikings/air upgrades or more Rax might be a better investment.
It's terrible for the game and as a fan. I wanna see more ghosts, not less ghosts.
About your comment on forgiving macro: If you miss it with toss and chrono, you miss whatever else you would have chronoed if you didn't miss the cycle. If you miss an inject as zerg it's gone as well. Terrans can que up the second cycle before the first cycle finishes (you shouldn't que up too much, but still you do not have to wait until the last unit is produced). Neither injects nor warpgate cycles can be qued up. I agree that terrans need a lot of micro in many situations, but their macro surely isn't less forgiving than the one of zergs and protosses. About the changes: I like the mule change. The ghost change seems a little bit extreme. In TvZ they might remain somewhat useful for nukes and emps for infestors, but in uch smaller numbers. In TvT they most likely vanish completly (altough they were already rare). In TvP the change does little, You can no longer snipe zealots but otherwise. I think the range upgrade will actually help protoss, even on the fleet beacon, as protosses build motherships in PvZ anyway. Your argument is silly. If you que units, your essentially miss managing your macro, which would be similar to having to use chrono inefeciently or missing injects. It's just bad macro. You're assuming there's no cost to Terran queing units when there clearly is. Assuming i don't macro perfectly, which I do not, my biggest concern when I mess up is getting units on the field so I don't die. Having two rounds of units qued in my baracks isn't going to do me any good when my opponent shows up to kill me. I'm gonna die. If I mess up with Zerg, I have much more flexibility in how I spend my larva, or I can have a macro hatch, in any case I find I can get units on the field, quicker, again so i do not die. Protoss is in between the two. Not as flexable as Zerg but still gives me a way to get units on the field faster with chronoboost of my gates. If my opponent is coming to kill me i don't give a shit if i'm not using my chrono as effecientley as possible, I need units, and I need them NOW. Chrono allows me to do that. Terran has no way to get units on the field faster if I'm going to die. And again, I can have my units que'd 4 deep but that aint gonna do me any good when my oponent is on my doorstep. I'll take the chronoboost and queen injections to Terrans queing any day. But that's just my opinion.
OT: I think that the nerf to snipe is too much, cutting the damage in half against most units is kind of silly when you can and should have it do reduced damage to massive units.
Off topic:
In the end I think that T/Z macro mechanics are about the same as far as mechanics needed, and I consider Toss to be a little easier. The reason for this is that Z has to keep on perfect injects to have enough units (most of the time this is 3+ queens every 40 secs) and spending larvae every 15 secs. This combined with drone production makes Z production a pain. In addition to earlier points, the overlord production is odd because you get larvae in chunks and have supply inefficient units like the roach. Terran have to hit mules every 50 points and have to cycle through different unit structures I still don't think that is on par with Z. Also, the different timings on units isn't a good excuse because all races have that.
Also, the amount of damage 5f worth of terran units can do is heinous compared to Z or even P. and if the queen dies, it sets the Z so far back it is almost GG worthy. On the flip side of this, Marines die quickly to banelings, fungals, colossi and you can't rely on reinforcements on the front line too much because of the speed/production timing of marines.
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On February 12 2012 08:20 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:43 gosuMalicE wrote:On February 12 2012 07:38 Phanekim wrote:
you never know how its going to work. people have constnatly nerfed terran. but terran have always risen to the top again because terran had so much untapped potential. so just cause you are buffing zerg doesn't mean terran can't adjust. maybe more raven usage. Very good point, zerg and protoss, use (and often) every unit at their disposal, simply because they have to. Tell a Terran to use a raven and they just laugh because their race is so well designed they have 3 units to a role and only need to use the most powerful one until it gets nerfed. okay so let's put aside ghosts for a moment and talk about ravens in lategame tvz autoturrets are obviously basically useless against blord/infestor/corruptor. PDD actually has a use(it can eat corruptor shots while your vikings attempt to kill the broodlords), but it's usually worse than just building more vikings. But what about the mighty seeker missiles? Well, they cost 125 energy, meaning any raven can't shoot a seeker missile more than once every 70 game seconds, on average. Luckily, that's largely irrelevant; since seeker missiles only have 6 range, your raven will generally either die to corruptors, get neuraled and shoot the missile at your stuff, or get fungalled and die. The reward for managing to do this? Well, shooting a single missile with pathetic splash ( http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/b/bf/Marauderafter.jpg) that kills about 40% of a broodlord. Oh, and there's a pretty good chance your raven is dead. luckily, that way you can use the supply for units which actually do things.
Except according to liquipedia, energy regeneration rate is 0.5625 energy per game second, that would mean 1 HSM every 222 seconds or almost 4 minutes! Additionally HSM do 100 damage with 6 range and within small radius for 125 energy, while ghost snipe even after the patch will do 125 damage with 9 range for 125 energy, so, even after patch, despite how ineffective, it would still be arguably better then HSM against broodlords and surely better against ultras.
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On February 12 2012 18:10 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 17:47 Zdrastochye wrote:
Goody queues up units all the time, and he does fine. Your logic must be flawed. Nope. Just yours. Good player doing bad things doesn't make bad things okay. This is why he's just an "average" pro. For the rest of you: While it's established that Zerg doesn't require any micro (very little) it is also more forgiving on macro because (aside from the fact that it's the most simple because Zerg players only use 1 single building) if you get supply blocked you're not actually punished as you can just stockpile larvae. If you forget mules you won't have the production capabilities to utilize them all at once, so a player who doesn't forget them will always have a bigger army.
This is so incredibly biased -_- Stockpiling larvae indeed makes you lose larva time. Also T usually isn't even running out of minerals if he forgets the mule, you generally don't get enough barracks to produce constantly with full mule mining because then they'd be idling when you're scanning.
Also have you attempted to 1a as Z? How'd that go?
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We are gonna see more motherships and blizzard is gonna be like, wtf why are we removing this ? :O
Awesome patch for the rest - I sort off am fine with the snipe change as terran - for ultralisks i feel we got a decent counter called the marauder. but for broods, its abit harder without the nice sniping - but then again, if we deal with the infestors, then micro the marines well - they can do a bunch too. 3/3 marines very stronk
Mules on gold where indeed stupid, good fix imho.
Or pray that your zerg is bad and build 5 ravens and seeker missle the stacked up broods! *giggle*
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Who cares about these macro mechanics? None of them are hard. Looking somewhere every 25s is not hard. Army control and positioning is hard. Multitasking multiple fights is hard.
Every time a Zerg injects, a Terran has to look away to make depots, P has to warpin. What's the difference?
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On February 12 2012 17:38 VoO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 17:31 cozzE wrote:On February 12 2012 16:56 Sandermatt wrote:On February 12 2012 15:36 mlspmatt wrote:
I occasionally play Toss and Zerg, and I find their macro much more forgiving. If you miss a macro round as Terran, it's gone, you missed it. With Zerg you just spend more larva, with Toss you warp stuff in then chrono and do it again. I wouldn't say terran macro is harder, just less forgiving.
And I'm gonna miss the ghost. I don't think terrans are going to make them much in TvZ if this nurf happens. They're so expensive, and need the two upgrades, and with their output cut in half, investing those resources in Vikings/air upgrades or more Rax might be a better investment.
It's terrible for the game and as a fan. I wanna see more ghosts, not less ghosts.
About your comment on forgiving macro: If you miss it with toss and chrono, you miss whatever else you would have chronoed if you didn't miss the cycle. If you miss an inject as zerg it's gone as well. Terrans can que up the second cycle before the first cycle finishes (you shouldn't que up too much, but still you do not have to wait until the last unit is produced). Neither injects nor warpgate cycles can be qued up. I agree that terrans need a lot of micro in many situations, but their macro surely isn't less forgiving than the one of zergs and protosses. About the changes: I like the mule change. The ghost change seems a little bit extreme. In TvZ they might remain somewhat useful for nukes and emps for infestors, but in uch smaller numbers. In TvT they most likely vanish completly (altough they were already rare). In TvP the change does little, You can no longer snipe zealots but otherwise. I think the range upgrade will actually help protoss, even on the fleet beacon, as protosses build motherships in PvZ anyway. you are totally clueless and don't know how each respective races macro mechanic works. Your talking as if Queuing is a good thing that helps T when this couldn't be any further from the truth. The fact you're bringing queuing into this argument means you cannot conceptualize the top level of play by any means - as queuing for terran is a deathwish, money tied in production buildings = potential buildings/units/upgrades wasted. The only worrisome change will be the ghost change, the rest make sense at the moment for top level play. Things will definitely get a lot harder for diamond and masters level terran users. Even before the patch it was brutal for a high master terran to make the tech switch surviving ling to infestor to ultras (which is btw standard play in masters), now it will require massive scouting every 30 seconds to react properly with ghost/marauders. I really don't understand Blizzard, Terran was a complete race, why make them incomplete instead of completing the other two races...
Because it's easier, that simple. Protoss suck, Zerg feel lacking, lets screw the only versatile and complete race :/
Way to go Blizzard!
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EPT
