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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
Why not make snipe into a deploy ability like siege mode?
Like make a "snipe mode" where ghosts become stationary and attack normally but using snipe's range instead? I think this fits more into the name of the ability, plus the fact that they have cloak they can stay hidden and shoot from afar.
Edit: I remember banshees all of a sudden... Too OP I guess?
Or since snipe only works on Bio units, why not just remove that restriction so that ghosts can snipe sentries too? Otherwise the 25 + 25 to psionic damage I think is not a very sensible nerf since it can only be used on Bio units.
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On February 12 2012 22:28 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 22:20 TechSc2 wrote:On February 12 2012 22:14 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
They should stop nerfing the late game of the race with the weakest late game. Find a way to reduce terran's efficiency early game and buff the tier 3 units weakest late game? herp derp my zerg opponent has a 6000 gas army and i will wipe it out with 4000 gas worth of ghost and not loose a single ghost. That's what the snipe nerf is about. Ever seen pro's only mass ghosts lategame against zerg? simply because they could cloak, snipe the overseer in 3 shots and then just snipe/normal attack everything to death without casualties. Stop whining terrans. It's not like you can't produce ghosts anymore and you really should get out of your own world off 60% winratio's and not complain I can agree with stop whining, but.. http://imgur.com/a/hQHYSThat's funny, seems like at least for the last year Terrans haven't had a winrate above 60% except for one month in Korea. The days of 'terran op' are behind us, but I suppose it'll be another year yet before people stop talking about them like they're completely broken.
Yet almost nobody whines about ZvP being absolutely broken.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Vatican City State334 Posts
On February 12 2012 21:52 graNite wrote:
protoss never had to find micro solutions... just think of the 111, noone thought about p micro, just buff imortals (i think they needed more range, too, maybe it is just a bad example)
t always has to find micro solutions for its nerfs, i dont like that. i know t is the most micro intensive race, but still...
It would be amazing if there were some micro solutions, but Protoss can't do much until Stalkers can kite a Terran unit without having to take turning damage each time.
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I don't like the phoenix's range upgrade :/
Giving AoE damage upgrade would have been better in my opinion.
=> Muta would still be able to kill easily the phoenix but with major loses instead of a dumb chase all other the map with phoenixes kiting mutas !
Range upgrade won't do anything if phoenix get trapped by a fungal !
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On February 12 2012 14:03 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 13:13 BanelingXD wrote:
I still don't understand why they need this kludgey ass Mule nerf when the same thing could be achieved with a longer Mule cooldown.
Terran players shouldn't be able to "energy expo" with mules and 6 CCs as a 4 click action when Zerg and Toss have nothing remotely comparable. Set Mule cast cooldown to 30 secs and this tactic dies. I actually don't mind gold expos, but why do they need 2 gas on everything? Low resource and island maps are badly needed.
Protoss: + free hotkey for all warpgates + can build units anywhere (warp-in), can produce/research faster (chronoboost) - ?
- Chrono is not a bonus but a must, since otherwise research and build time of tech units is longer than with the other two races.
- warpgates also take much of the precious APM in a fight, since because of gate way unit efficiency you must warp in or you will lose the battle or you have to warp in in order to not waste cooldown - there is no queuing, meaning warpgates are similarly unforgiving like larva inject.
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Thinking more about it, a +1 base armor for Phoenix would have been better than a +range upg, giving them increased hp against the bounces of mutas and making them slightly more viable in TvP as they would be better against marines.
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On February 12 2012 22:43 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 22:28 The KY wrote:On February 12 2012 22:20 TechSc2 wrote:On February 12 2012 22:14 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
They should stop nerfing the late game of the race with the weakest late game. Find a way to reduce terran's efficiency early game and buff the tier 3 units weakest late game? herp derp my zerg opponent has a 6000 gas army and i will wipe it out with 4000 gas worth of ghost and not loose a single ghost. That's what the snipe nerf is about. Ever seen pro's only mass ghosts lategame against zerg? simply because they could cloak, snipe the overseer in 3 shots and then just snipe/normal attack everything to death without casualties. Stop whining terrans. It's not like you can't produce ghosts anymore and you really should get out of your own world off 60% winratio's and not complain I can agree with stop whining, but.. http://imgur.com/a/hQHYSThat's funny, seems like at least for the last year Terrans haven't had a winrate above 60% except for one month in Korea. The days of 'terran op' are behind us, but I suppose it'll be another year yet before people stop talking about them like they're completely broken. Yet almost nobody whines about ZvP being absolutely broken.
Is it absolutely broken? Or are zergs just going through a period of slight dominance which is completely expected and natural in an asymmetrical RTS?
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On February 12 2012 22:58 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 22:43 Recognizable wrote:On February 12 2012 22:28 The KY wrote:On February 12 2012 22:20 TechSc2 wrote:On February 12 2012 22:14 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
They should stop nerfing the late game of the race with the weakest late game. Find a way to reduce terran's efficiency early game and buff the tier 3 units weakest late game? herp derp my zerg opponent has a 6000 gas army and i will wipe it out with 4000 gas worth of ghost and not loose a single ghost. That's what the snipe nerf is about. Ever seen pro's only mass ghosts lategame against zerg? simply because they could cloak, snipe the overseer in 3 shots and then just snipe/normal attack everything to death without casualties. Stop whining terrans. It's not like you can't produce ghosts anymore and you really should get out of your own world off 60% winratio's and not complain I can agree with stop whining, but.. http://imgur.com/a/hQHYSThat's funny, seems like at least for the last year Terrans haven't had a winrate above 60% except for one month in Korea. The days of 'terran op' are behind us, but I suppose it'll be another year yet before people stop talking about them like they're completely broken. Yet almost nobody whines about ZvP being absolutely broken. Is it absolutely broken? Or are zergs just going through a period of slight dominance which is completely expected and natural in an asymmetrical RTS?
Has that ever mattered? It just feels Blizzard is balancing around community concerns instead of anything substantial.
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On February 12 2012 22:49 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 14:03 S1eth wrote:On February 12 2012 13:13 BanelingXD wrote:
I still don't understand why they need this kludgey ass Mule nerf when the same thing could be achieved with a longer Mule cooldown.
Terran players shouldn't be able to "energy expo" with mules and 6 CCs as a 4 click action when Zerg and Toss have nothing remotely comparable. Set Mule cast cooldown to 30 secs and this tactic dies. I actually don't mind gold expos, but why do they need 2 gas on everything? Low resource and island maps are badly needed.
Protoss: + free hotkey for all warpgates + can build units anywhere (warp-in), can produce/research faster (chronoboost) - ? - Chrono is not a bonus but a must, since otherwise research and build time of tech units is longer than with the other two races. - warpgates also take much of the precious APM in a fight, since because of gate way unit efficiency you must warp in or you will lose the battle or you have to warp in in order to not waste cooldown - there is no queuing, meaning warpgates are similarly unforgiving like larva inject.
unforgiving like larva inject... what a non-sense, every single race is unforgiving when u dont macro. Not macroing = no army. Even if u queue shitload of units from ur rax as terran, u wont have an army, ur just dumping ur ressources.
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I personally do not like the Ghost design . as it stands the Ghost is a protoss quality unit . High cost , high hp , high utility [not counting next patch, we have to see how it pans out]
I think , from a design perspective , that terran bio has lost its flavor . Essentially there are 3 units you would use [ignoring reapers cause they are gimicky] . And only 1 of those units is a 1 pop low hp high dpser , namely the marine . I could come to terms with the Marauder staying beefy and 2 pop as it is a new unit for a new game , but why are ghosts as such . I think its much cooler what was done in BW .
To make things short [sorry for the long rant] , aside from the obvious lack of utility in terran tier3 and some units being pidgeon holled demanding another look at , would it be so bad if Ghosts were completely redesigned for HOTS????
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On February 12 2012 22:49 algue wrote:
I don't like the phoenix's range upgrade :/
Giving AoE damage upgrade would have been better in my opinion.
=> Muta would still be able to kill easily the phoenix but with major loses instead of a dumb chase all other the map with phoenixes kiting mutas !
Range upgrade won't do anything if phoenix get trapped by a fungal !
This would break PvT.
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On February 12 2012 22:58 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 22:43 Recognizable wrote:On February 12 2012 22:28 The KY wrote:On February 12 2012 22:20 TechSc2 wrote:On February 12 2012 22:14 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
They should stop nerfing the late game of the race with the weakest late game. Find a way to reduce terran's efficiency early game and buff the tier 3 units weakest late game? herp derp my zerg opponent has a 6000 gas army and i will wipe it out with 4000 gas worth of ghost and not loose a single ghost. That's what the snipe nerf is about. Ever seen pro's only mass ghosts lategame against zerg? simply because they could cloak, snipe the overseer in 3 shots and then just snipe/normal attack everything to death without casualties. Stop whining terrans. It's not like you can't produce ghosts anymore and you really should get out of your own world off 60% winratio's and not complain I can agree with stop whining, but.. http://imgur.com/a/hQHYSThat's funny, seems like at least for the last year Terrans haven't had a winrate above 60% except for one month in Korea. The days of 'terran op' are behind us, but I suppose it'll be another year yet before people stop talking about them like they're completely broken. Yet almost nobody whines about ZvP being absolutely broken. Is it absolutely broken? Or are zergs just going through a period of slight dominance which is completely expected and natural in an asymmetrical RTS?
Wait, Zergs are the ones slightly dominant? Please do tell how exactly Zergs are dominating over Protoss because I have seen nothing of the sort. The only thing I think you could be referring to is Mutalisks being difficult to deal with but that's about it, aside from that there is still a plethora of incredibly powerful Protoss tactics that work perfectly fine. Heck, just yesterday I saw a top masters Zerg get beaten by a platinum Protoss player who simply 6 gated, yeah....not even exagerating one bit.
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According to Blizzard, Terran already was the most complete of the races. Now, it's finished!
At least the changes apart from snipe seem decent.
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On February 12 2012 17:10 tauon wrote:Maybe the phoenix range upgrade will finally give protoss the excuse they need to get the fleet beacon and then the carrier/mothership in PvZ. 
I hope so (@ carriers), but mamaship is already standard late game play.
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On February 12 2012 23:25 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 22:58 The KY wrote:On February 12 2012 22:43 Recognizable wrote:On February 12 2012 22:28 The KY wrote:On February 12 2012 22:20 TechSc2 wrote:On February 12 2012 22:14 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
They should stop nerfing the late game of the race with the weakest late game. Find a way to reduce terran's efficiency early game and buff the tier 3 units weakest late game? herp derp my zerg opponent has a 6000 gas army and i will wipe it out with 4000 gas worth of ghost and not loose a single ghost. That's what the snipe nerf is about. Ever seen pro's only mass ghosts lategame against zerg? simply because they could cloak, snipe the overseer in 3 shots and then just snipe/normal attack everything to death without casualties. Stop whining terrans. It's not like you can't produce ghosts anymore and you really should get out of your own world off 60% winratio's and not complain I can agree with stop whining, but.. http://imgur.com/a/hQHYSThat's funny, seems like at least for the last year Terrans haven't had a winrate above 60% except for one month in Korea. The days of 'terran op' are behind us, but I suppose it'll be another year yet before people stop talking about them like they're completely broken. Yet almost nobody whines about ZvP being absolutely broken. Is it absolutely broken? Or are zergs just going through a period of slight dominance which is completely expected and natural in an asymmetrical RTS? Wait, Zergs are the ones slightly dominant? Please do tell how exactly Zergs are dominating over Protoss because I have seen nothing of the sort. The only thing I think you could be referring to is Mutalisks being difficult to deal with but that's about it, aside from that there is still a plethora of incredibly powerful Protoss tactics that work perfectly fine. Heck, just yesterday I saw a top masters Zerg get beaten by a platinum Protoss player who simply 6 gated, yeah....not even exagerating one bit.
What I'm referring to is the statistics I linked earlier in this discussion, just click the spoiler tags. International tournament winrates for ZvP in the month of January 2012; 58.8%. In Korea it's 55.
The fact that a masters player got beat in one game means literally nothing to me. I beat a masters protoss when I was in plat...it's one game. It sounds like you're a zerg who just doesn't want to accept that not everyone is being beat by protoss (and trust me, I can relate), but it's ironic because my point was that zerg is not OP just because they have a high winrate in this match up right now.
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On February 12 2012 17:40 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 16:56 Sandermatt wrote:On February 12 2012 15:36 mlspmatt wrote:
I occasionally play Toss and Zerg, and I find their macro much more forgiving. If you miss a macro round as Terran, it's gone, you missed it. With Zerg you just spend more larva, with Toss you warp stuff in then chrono and do it again. I wouldn't say terran macro is harder, just less forgiving.
And I'm gonna miss the ghost. I don't think terrans are going to make them much in TvZ if this nurf happens. They're so expensive, and need the two upgrades, and with their output cut in half, investing those resources in Vikings/air upgrades or more Rax might be a better investment.
It's terrible for the game and as a fan. I wanna see more ghosts, not less ghosts.
About your comment on forgiving macro: If you miss it with toss and chrono, you miss whatever else you would have chronoed if you didn't miss the cycle. If you miss an inject as zerg it's gone as well. Terrans can que up the second cycle before the first cycle finishes (you shouldn't que up too much, but still you do not have to wait until the last unit is produced). Neither injects nor warpgate cycles can be qued up. I agree that terrans need a lot of micro in many situations, but their macro surely isn't less forgiving than the one of zergs and protosses. About the changes: I like the mule change. The ghost change seems a little bit extreme. In TvZ they might remain somewhat useful for nukes and emps for infestors, but in uch smaller numbers. In TvT they most likely vanish completly (altough they were already rare). In TvP the change does little, You can no longer snipe zealots but otherwise. I think the range upgrade will actually help protoss, even on the fleet beacon, as protosses build motherships in PvZ anyway. Your argument is silly. If you que units, your essentially miss managing your macro, which would be similar to having to use chrono inefeciently or missing injects. It's just bad macro. You're assuming there's no cost to Terran queing units when there clearly is. Assuming i don't macro perfectly, which I do not, my biggest concern when I mess up is getting units on the field so I don't die. Having two rounds of units qued in my baracks isn't going to do me any good when my opponent shows up to kill me. I'm gonna die. If I mess up with Zerg, I have much more flexibility in how I spend my larva, or I can have a macro hatch, in any case I find I can get units on the field, quicker, again so i do not die. Protoss is in between the two. Not as flexable as Zerg but still gives me a way to get units on the field faster with chronoboost of my gates. If my opponent is coming to kill me i don't give a shit if i'm not using my chrono as effecientley as possible, I need units, and I need them NOW. Chrono allows me to do that. Terran has no way to get units on the field faster if I'm going to die. And again, I can have my units que'd 4 deep but that aint gonna do me any good when my oponent is on my doorstep. I'll take the chronoboost and queen injections to Terrans queing any day. But that's just my opinion.
Then you are doing it wrong. What you should be doing as terran, is queing BEFORE the battle, so that you have APM to spare on your micro.
Thats a luxury neither toss nor zerg have. As toss, if your gates are ready, you have to make units in midst of a battle, and therefore you lose APM for microing units. If you micro and dont make units, you lose those 5-15 sec on every warp gate, and you cant get it back. Same with zerg.
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hooray!!!!! I can finally make up my mind switching away from terran(that I played since game out and watch every single strategy guides on teamliquids and watch all major tournaments to study and barely got to master without cheese). Now if i start play zerg, I can get to master in a week. Protoss? 5 placement games after the patch. Good job, blizzard, I might just make up my mind switching away from this game after the patch. GOOD JOB balancing the code s, better change the name of the game to gslcraft 2.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Cant wait for that phoenix buff <3 mutas can go suck it!
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On February 12 2012 23:53 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 17:40 mlspmatt wrote:On February 12 2012 16:56 Sandermatt wrote:On February 12 2012 15:36 mlspmatt wrote:
I occasionally play Toss and Zerg, and I find their macro much more forgiving. If you miss a macro round as Terran, it's gone, you missed it. With Zerg you just spend more larva, with Toss you warp stuff in then chrono and do it again. I wouldn't say terran macro is harder, just less forgiving.
And I'm gonna miss the ghost. I don't think terrans are going to make them much in TvZ if this nurf happens. They're so expensive, and need the two upgrades, and with their output cut in half, investing those resources in Vikings/air upgrades or more Rax might be a better investment.
It's terrible for the game and as a fan. I wanna see more ghosts, not less ghosts.
About your comment on forgiving macro: If you miss it with toss and chrono, you miss whatever else you would have chronoed if you didn't miss the cycle. If you miss an inject as zerg it's gone as well. Terrans can que up the second cycle before the first cycle finishes (you shouldn't que up too much, but still you do not have to wait until the last unit is produced). Neither injects nor warpgate cycles can be qued up. I agree that terrans need a lot of micro in many situations, but their macro surely isn't less forgiving than the one of zergs and protosses. About the changes: I like the mule change. The ghost change seems a little bit extreme. In TvZ they might remain somewhat useful for nukes and emps for infestors, but in uch smaller numbers. In TvT they most likely vanish completly (altough they were already rare). In TvP the change does little, You can no longer snipe zealots but otherwise. I think the range upgrade will actually help protoss, even on the fleet beacon, as protosses build motherships in PvZ anyway. Your argument is silly. If you que units, your essentially miss managing your macro, which would be similar to having to use chrono inefeciently or missing injects. It's just bad macro. You're assuming there's no cost to Terran queing units when there clearly is. Assuming i don't macro perfectly, which I do not, my biggest concern when I mess up is getting units on the field so I don't die. Having two rounds of units qued in my baracks isn't going to do me any good when my opponent shows up to kill me. I'm gonna die. If I mess up with Zerg, I have much more flexibility in how I spend my larva, or I can have a macro hatch, in any case I find I can get units on the field, quicker, again so i do not die. Protoss is in between the two. Not as flexable as Zerg but still gives me a way to get units on the field faster with chronoboost of my gates. If my opponent is coming to kill me i don't give a shit if i'm not using my chrono as effecientley as possible, I need units, and I need them NOW. Chrono allows me to do that. Terran has no way to get units on the field faster if I'm going to die. And again, I can have my units que'd 4 deep but that aint gonna do me any good when my oponent is on my doorstep. I'll take the chronoboost and queen injections to Terrans queing any day. But that's just my opinion. Then you are doing it wrong. What you should be doing as terran, is queing BEFORE the battle, so that you have APM to spare on your micro. Thats a luxury neither toss nor zerg have. As toss, if your gates are ready, you have to make units in midst of a battle, and therefore you lose APM for microing units. If you micro and dont make units, you lose those 5-15 sec on every warp gate, and you cant get it back. Same with zerg.
Except that if you have money to que up units beffore battle you have been macroing bad beffore the battle already.
Toss on other hand can micro efficiently because warpgates alow him to get units asap if he gets into trouble after the battle and terran cannot.
good day, svizcy
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On February 12 2012 23:47 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 23:25 BeeNu wrote:On February 12 2012 22:58 The KY wrote:On February 12 2012 22:43 Recognizable wrote:On February 12 2012 22:28 The KY wrote:On February 12 2012 22:20 TechSc2 wrote:On February 12 2012 22:14 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
They should stop nerfing the late game of the race with the weakest late game. Find a way to reduce terran's efficiency early game and buff the tier 3 units weakest late game? herp derp my zerg opponent has a 6000 gas army and i will wipe it out with 4000 gas worth of ghost and not loose a single ghost. That's what the snipe nerf is about. Ever seen pro's only mass ghosts lategame against zerg? simply because they could cloak, snipe the overseer in 3 shots and then just snipe/normal attack everything to death without casualties. Stop whining terrans. It's not like you can't produce ghosts anymore and you really should get out of your own world off 60% winratio's and not complain I can agree with stop whining, but.. http://imgur.com/a/hQHYSThat's funny, seems like at least for the last year Terrans haven't had a winrate above 60% except for one month in Korea. The days of 'terran op' are behind us, but I suppose it'll be another year yet before people stop talking about them like they're completely broken. Yet almost nobody whines about ZvP being absolutely broken. Is it absolutely broken? Or are zergs just going through a period of slight dominance which is completely expected and natural in an asymmetrical RTS? Wait, Zergs are the ones slightly dominant? Please do tell how exactly Zergs are dominating over Protoss because I have seen nothing of the sort. The only thing I think you could be referring to is Mutalisks being difficult to deal with but that's about it, aside from that there is still a plethora of incredibly powerful Protoss tactics that work perfectly fine. Heck, just yesterday I saw a top masters Zerg get beaten by a platinum Protoss player who simply 6 gated, yeah....not even exagerating one bit. What I'm referring to is the statistics I linked earlier in this discussion, just click the spoiler tags. International tournament winrates for ZvP in the month of January 2012; 58.8%. In Korea it's 55. The fact that a masters player got beat in one game means literally nothing to me. I beat a masters protoss when I was in plat...it's one game. It sounds like you're a zerg who just doesn't want to accept that not everyone is being beat by protoss (and trust me, I can relate), but it's ironic because my point was that zerg is not OP just because they have a high winrate in this match up right now.
It's not that, it's just that I've seen a lot of Zerg players [progamers too] express difficulty and utter confusion in how to win ZvP at all without just going all-in and hoping shit works out. Like sure, I can probably beat Protoss somewhere around 50% of the time maybe even better than that, but I honestly have not beaten a Protoss in a macro game in months, at some point in the game now I just go all-in and kill them some way or another. My point was just that statistically sure Zerg might be fine right now and have a slight advantage but in terms of metagame I think Protoss are completely dominant right now if they just learn to not get taken surprise by the more popular all-in strats. The only thing Zergs have going for them heavily in their favor right now is Mutas but the next patch will even that out and Zergs are going to have their backs against the wall for a while and be almost soley getting their wins from all-in strategies much like how Protoss used to get their wins vs Zerg.
Maybe I'm completely wrong and crazy though, but that's what I see happening right now.
Also, I'm mostly talking about on ladder, the way things work in tourneys and the way things work in ladder are almost completely different.
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EPT
