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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 16:48 R!! wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 16:30 tomatriedes wrote:On February 11 2012 16:25 R!! wrote:On February 11 2012 16:08 tomatriedes wrote:On February 11 2012 16:03 ChriseC wrote:On February 11 2012 15:53 tomatriedes wrote:On February 11 2012 15:47 R!! wrote:On February 11 2012 15:41 Sylfyre wrote:
Alot of people aren't liking the snipe thing by the looks of it. I don't mind the snipe change because it's still decent against ultras and brood lords, and even just weakening those units is beneficial. On top of that, snipe does more damage to infestors (which is what I personally have the most trouble dealing with in TvZ)
Even better imo, is the extra damage against high templars in TvP, which is good, since storm dodging is usually what screws me up in TvP. In terms of people who don't like terran not having the greatest caster units, ravens are pretty good, especially if your against a deathball that's zealot/sentry/HT heavy. 19 snipes = decent?19 snipes = 475 energy(and tendonitis), you need to use at least 7 new ghosts with mobious reactor to kill an ultra, god damn these dramatic terrans, snipe is totally fine! Marauders do an excellent job of killing ultras. Hell, in chokes marines and tanks rape ultras pretty hard too. The point is that ghosts should be for emping and taking out casters. Ghosts were never supposed to be a counter-every-zerg-tier3 unit. That was a mistake that Blizz made that they are now trying to rectify. mainproblem is not the ultralisk itself its more about the techswitches between BL/infestor and Ultra/infestor and that terran cant switch fast enough before knowing whats happening. with ghosts u were/are always on the safe side cuz they are quite good against both of them. marauders obviously dont help against broodlords, vikings not vs ultras My point is that tech switching is the sign of a good rts. And that both races reacting to each other is a good thing. We want to encourage it not discourage it. Having a single unit that can counter all of another races tier 3 units is the sign of a bad RTS. It's much more interesting to watch players reacting and counter-reacting to each other's compositions. Except terran is the only race doing the reacting, terran doesn't have the potential to win because they've hidden their tech in the late game, now wonder what happens if a zerg manages to hide a tech switch to blords while the terran was expecting ultras because he scanned the cavern, I guess that's an autoloss( because marauders apparently can't shoot air!), the same goes for assuming blords, good luck using vikings vs ultras.So unless we can constantly throw scans everywhere, we need ghosts to counter every T3 unit, whilst building the 'proper' conter, any other answer simply doesn't cut it and it's not like ghosts are anywhere near exceptional at what they do. Zerg will have to react too. Once viking numbers get too high they need to switch out of BLs. Once marauder numbers are too high they need to switch out of ultras. Ghosts are not out of the game- they are still super-effective at EMPing and sniping infestors and without infestors both bls and ultras are pretty trash. Once either are too high and zerg switches the terran dies, especially when the switch is to ultras, since ghosts don't do anything against them.You aren't making much sense when you say that zergs will have to react, zergs don't have to do anything when they see too many marauders or too many vikings.
To add on to that it is MUCH harder for T to perform a quick tech switch than Z.... T requires a huge infrastructure in lategame involving addons. It would be difficult to go from a many reactor barracks, couple tech lab barracks for the heavy marine midgame through BL/Infestor and then when zerg decides to make 12 ultras at once because he has all this bank along with however many 10's of zerglings to swarm the ground to changing all those rax to tech labs and then creating marauders. No matter how fast you are you cannot make tech labs build faster or make buildings float faster to switch around. Z can do this tech switch with each round of larva if they so desire! This is why T needs a staple unit around which he adjust his composition for the tech switch rather than have to match the Z capability of completely changing his composition. The ghost provided this.... ghost/viking or ghost/marauder depending on fighting air or land Z. All barracks could be tech labs, all starports could be reactors. Now it takes 21 snipes for ultras?!?
edit: before someone comes in and tries to point out the obvious. Yes, other units are involved besides ghost/viking or ghost/marauder or any combination of ghost/viking/marauder depending on Z but the point is that without the ability to tech switch T needs a unit that can bind all the compositions together.
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I must admit to mixed feelings about this patch.
I'm not sure that nerfing Ghosts was the right way to handle it - I think Zergs were starting to shift their endgame to avoid the Ghost-heavy play (I think DRG's shown this to some extent) - but it's certainly an option to get out of the endgame style that NesTea keeps losing against Terrans.
Phoenix range change will be nice, although it'll really encourage more extensive Phoenix harass versus Zerg, IMO. It'll be interesting to see how that shakes out.
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United States13143 Posts
On February 11 2012 16:59 MalakhWing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 16:47 kofman wrote:
This is ridiculous. 45 damage to 25 damage? Thats a HUGE nerf, and it makes ghosts drastically less effective. A number like 30 would have been much more reasonable. I don't think blizzard is ever going to stop nerfing terran, terran has been nerfed in every single patch since the game came out. its not neccesary either, just look at the numbers of terrans compared to the other races on ladder, terrans are already a small minority, and will become even worse represented. Pardon if I am mistaken, but I have never seen numbers stating that terran were a minority, and if they are I can only assume it is by an insignificant amount statistically. That is also disregarding that the game is being balanced for the top tier of play which the ladder doesn't actually represent race wise in this sense. Regardless it does seem like a big nerf, but other than effectively killing off all chances of the new Idra and Artosis episode of Unbalanced: The Ghost Edition, I say we just have to wait it out with their internal testing. Chances are Blizzard really just wants a cheaper alternative to use against infestors besides emp for when there isn't enough mana instead of being a counter to the tier 3 zerg units.
http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
30% Masters, 26% Diamond/Plat, 28% Gold.
With the number of people who actually play, that's significant, especially since it keeps going down iirc.
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thanks blizzard, but you still have YET to implement a LAN mode and replay sharing, two of the most common things requested.
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Im not the best player out there ,but i feel as if Ghosts were made to be super good and expensive, but then got nerfed many times . I mean, they are too expensive to contribute via damage due to lack of cost efficiency , they are kind of expensive to use as a nuke platform . THeir saving grace for the cost u pay for ghost was the snipe ability , but then again both storm and fungal are far better . I know its bad to dirrectly compare casters ... Personally i would rather ghosts were like in BroodWar , cheap and weak but with utility.
BTW , did anyone notice that the Viking tool tip says "Durable support flyer" ... yes, you read it right ... it says DURABLE!!!!
Anyway, i suppose things will dramatically shift in HOTS , especially with mech becoming more viable and new units shifting the meta and affecting balance with future patches . But thats a long ways off... I think Terran will have to emulate Empire.Kass super agro TvZ till then
Vlad
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I think that Blizzards is doing a great job at balancing the game, and their's why:
The Snipe nerf in TvZ share a lot of similarity with the Khaldarym Amulet removal nerf. The nerf is adress to change the way the unit is use, because how the Terran was using the Ghost doesn't have a counter strategy.
When the Protoss has KA, , Ghost wasn't made at all. This is mostly because the HT were born in the battle and then insta-storming their way to victory. How can your counter a unit that isn't in the battlefield ? you needed some sick reaction. When the nerf came, all protoss were complaining. And since their was no more insta-storm, EMP became the subject of complaining of every protoss. The truth is that they were using HT very bad after the patch. Every player i can remember in the pro level for some time was using lots of Zealots, Archon and high number of HT in the main army. This was like asking to be EMPed. They were not very spread, if not at all. But Day9 has done a entire Daily ( i don't remember the number, can someone can tell me) about the usage of HT from Hero in PvT. His usage of this unit was by using small number in the main army, but in base having lots of HT building energy. The main difference between the newb method and the Hero method is this : Lots of low energy for the newb, and few high energy for hero. An Emp on the newb completly negate his multiple HT, but for Hero, his Ht have still enough energy because EMP remove only 100 energy.
The Snipe issue share some caracteristic with the KA : The Terran was massing Ghost in the Lategame because this allows him to have Lots of Snipe (every Ghost can have up to 8 snipe) and it can counter lategame unit from the Zerg. The issue now was that the Snipe is so cheap on energy that lots of ghost become very fast an invincible army if you rely on Expensive unit. The Ghost will have to have more energy to be has effective with the next patch, so it mean that the Terran will need a evolution about their use of the Ghost.
It's all about unit usage that a strategy is strong or not. Blizzard is taking the right direction 
Just as i write that, i look at a GSL match ( the final match between NSH and TSL where NSH almost all-kill TSL), and a protoss player was warping exclusivly from Warp Prism instead of a Pylon in a PvZ where the opponent use roach and Zergling in the Early game. What can the opponent do ? loll it'S so funny. I really hope this game will evolve like that
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Well, I personally did not expect that, but I was mistaken then. Anyways I do strongly believe that its Blizzard's interest to keep the ghost as an anti spellcaster unit as of the patch explanation linked in the thread prior. I like that line of thinking though I am of no authority on whether it is justifiable. I only wish that snipe still 1 shotted marines and things with similar health totals, because frankly I find it silly that it won't any longer.
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On February 11 2012 17:03 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 16:56 Shebuha wrote:
Mules change = yay
Snipe change = we shall see
Phoenix change = ummm okay?
APM change = yay
We complain about what Blizzard does and doesn't do a lot, which is certainly fine to do and we gotta acknowledge that they are doing a fine job. I feel good about this patch in general! Most of the issues and gripes I have with the game are more metagamey and 'people haven't figured the game out yet and do retarded shit' than balance now, so props to Blizz for balancing quite well.
Also, I really hated the change of measurement of APM and I'm glad it's back. I thought it was really stupid to suddenly change what APM was for the sake of.... nothing. Like the infestor projectile nerf they proposed PTR this snipe nerf won't make it me thinks. Too much and too much bitching by community. You're right blizz patches are very very good though but they also PTR for a reason and drop stuff when they feel they made a mistake.
This change won't go through since it doesnt really make sense, or if it does they will revert at some point - mark my words.
It's like these fools dont even play the game anymore, whatever Bliz. In the meantime back to practicing all-ins / 2 base timing attacks for everyone as T.
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I'm kind of glad the balance team is getting more focused on timings beyond the early game. It seemed like they were too focused on rushes and specific timings in the past, and many of the patches instituted early on in SC2 had negative effects on the balance in long games.
IMO zerg is designed too heavily as a snow ball, and it feels like a "time bomb" race. Terran is too dependent on having god like micro and is too reliant on it's strong early and mid game (because mech and bio suck late game vs protoss or zerg imo, so you have to do a lot of micro oriented damage early and mid game to not be in a bad situation) Protoss still seems stronger at all ins than safe macro oriented play, this may be becasue of protoss's weak defense (you almost have to anticipate and pre postition for every possibility) or just a problem with the commitment and cost asscociated with protoss's tech trees. I also feel like protoss has a lower skill ceiling than terran or zerg, which is bad for protoss, top players get rewarded less for thier multitasking and apm.
How races play on maps is a big issue too, how hard is it to make a map that is "bad for terran" as opposed to how easy it is to make a map that is "bad for zerg" or " bad for toss" . However, what I'm looking at are definately more racial/game design issues than balance. Hopefully, with all the time being taken for HOTS these types of questions will be focused on.
I am also hopefull that as the overall top level of play in every race increases in skill and understanding, we will see more creativity and evolution in gameplay. I feel like play styles of all the races have been very stagnant and patches are what drive innovation rather than top players taking fresh approaches to match ups. Some of this maybe because there are some problematic units in SC2, and once they enter the field they take away a long list of options from the opponent.
Please, I'm certainly not looking for being a target for flame, these are just some gereralized observations and I am hopefull the balance team continue to look at a broader scope for HOTS gameplay (as they appear to be doing in this patch)
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Blizzard could fix so many things if infestor couldnt target air without buffing or nerfing all the time. Put Ghost back to old cost leave it's dmg alone. No way to build 20 of them.
Vikings could handle BL late game if zerg doesnt build enough corruptors.
Mothership could be deleted once and for all and phoenix could pick up infestors if zerg doesnt build enough corruptors. Then VR would come into late game too to contest BL and corrupter.
Would be a way more exciting game as well with air play.
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This is a patch where you either love or hate it, Mutas now have a semi hard time crushing protoss. on the other hand i can't comment for the terran side of things seems like snipe got nerfed quite a bit. I'm going to hit up the PTR to test out the changes when the server comes up.
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clearly blizzard doesn't understand the problem....
T has too many options vs. Z in the beginning (also 1-1-1 vP)-- delay factory tech
P has stalkers which counter every T3 tech in the game (yea with templars) and every upgrade toss needs is on the same tech path
Z has two boring mid games units called roaches/hydras with no fun abiltities-- I love watching roachvZ and roachvP
T has no late game, stays on tanks/rines or mmm, makes ghosts in order not to die
I have a question as well... How come hunter seeker missle is 125 nrg while storm is 75???
whatever i quit
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Maybe Blizzard is "pulling an NP".
Remember when they announced the patch notes a while ago where they stopped NP working on all massive units and gave it a range of 2 (or something :p)
Everyone (zergs) raged for about a week and then blizzard reduced the nerf and zergs felt somewhat better about it (and Blizzard).
Announce a massive nerf, hear outcry, reduce nerf. Blizz nerfs something they believe needs nerfing but the playerbase still feels ok about it (even zergs).
That said, cant remember the last time I saw NP used
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On February 11 2012 17:18 tdt wrote:
Blizzard could fix so many things if infestor couldnt target air without buffing or nerfing all the time. Put Ghost back to old cost leave it's dmg alone. No way to build 20 of them.
Vikings could handle BL late game if zerg doesnt build enough corruptors.
Mothership could be deleted once and for all and phoenix could pick up infestors if zerg doesnt build enough corruptors. Then VR would come into late game too to contest BL and corrupter.
Would be a way more exciting game as well with air play.
You're missing the part where corruptors are made useful.
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On February 11 2012 17:13 nvrs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 17:03 tdt wrote:On February 11 2012 16:56 Shebuha wrote:
Mules change = yay
Snipe change = we shall see
Phoenix change = ummm okay?
APM change = yay
We complain about what Blizzard does and doesn't do a lot, which is certainly fine to do and we gotta acknowledge that they are doing a fine job. I feel good about this patch in general! Most of the issues and gripes I have with the game are more metagamey and 'people haven't figured the game out yet and do retarded shit' than balance now, so props to Blizz for balancing quite well.
Also, I really hated the change of measurement of APM and I'm glad it's back. I thought it was really stupid to suddenly change what APM was for the sake of.... nothing. Like the infestor projectile nerf they proposed PTR this snipe nerf won't make it me thinks. Too much and too much bitching by community. You're right blizz patches are very very good though but they also PTR for a reason and drop stuff when they feel they made a mistake. This change won't go through since it doesnt really make sense, or if it does they will revert at some point - mark my words. It's like these fools dont even play the game anymore, whatever Bliz. In the meantime back to practicing all-ins / 2 base timing attacks for everyone as T.
After reading the blizz statements, im pretty sure the snipe nerf will go through because its much more of a design change than a balance one. They dont want the ghost to be the unit to go against zerg. Its pretty much the same like it was with the Thor in TvP. They said the no energy Thor was not imbalanced. They just didnt like the idea of massing Thor and thats why they nerfed it to no existence in TvP. Same will now happen with the Ghost being only a anti caster unit.
But the change overall is stupid, if they think sniping is a problem they should make massiv units immun, but telling the terran players that sniping a ultra 21 times is still a viable tactic ist just bullshit and is totally the opposite to what DK said in his earlier blog where he said they want to make the game easier for lowies.
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On February 11 2012 17:28 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 17:18 tdt wrote:
Blizzard could fix so many things if infestor couldnt target air without buffing or nerfing all the time. Put Ghost back to old cost leave it's dmg alone. No way to build 20 of them.
Vikings could handle BL late game if zerg doesnt build enough corruptors.
Mothership could be deleted once and for all and phoenix could pick up infestors if zerg doesnt build enough corruptors. Then VR would come into late game too to contest BL and corrupter.
Would be a way more exciting game as well with air play. You're missing the part where corruptors are made useful.
I know Zerg complains about corruptor by I don't get it. They beat vikings, they beat phoenix, they actually beat every air unit cost/cost other than VR (charged).
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Mixed feelings about the snipe change. Damage nerf might be too much. I honestly thought the range on snipe was more problematic for me than was the damage. Oh well, let's see how terrans respond to this. Hopefully ravens will be incorporated more late game.
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is this patch on the PTR atm?
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So many Terrans complaining about snipe nerf, I am being 1 of them.
Ts always gets nerf I dont understand. First the ghost EMP was nerfed (the radius) now the snipe. Next, the nuke? Then cloak?
For now even if the snipe is very painful for someone who uses ghosts a lot, I will stick to T. However, if there is another nerf they do to ghosts, I am quitting SC2 lol. Or at least changing race
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Terran lategame was arguably the worst and they make it... even worse. I think the ghost nerf is a bit much. It also takes out the early ghost in TvT 1 shotting marines before combat shields.
The phoenix change is interesting but it changes the dynamic completely considering phoenix can outrun mutas all day. Vulture of the sky... just without mines. Zergs generally don't have very good anti air with their army currently and hydras are slow off creep so I could see it chase mutas away then pick off infestors/units. Very micro intensive but possibly very strong as well. I'm not sure what to think of that since PvZ is my least knowledgeable matchup.
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EPT
