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Patch 1.4.3 - Preview Blog - Page 110

Forum Index > SC2 General
4449 CommentsPost a Reply
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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.

Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions.
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6223 Posts
February 11 2012 02:10 GMT
#2181
I was thinking about it and my opinion is that instead of 25+25 psionic, it should be 50 -25 vs massive. It'd keep ghosts useful and viable early game at taking out small numbers of banelings/roaches while being far worse at dealing with broods and ultras.
rogzardo
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
610 Posts
February 11 2012 02:10 GMT
#2182
Ghost? Nerfed to shit. Tank? Nerfed hard. Thor? nerfed. Hellion? Nerf. Dropship? Nerf. Marine/bunker/reaper? Indirectly nerfed.

But my + .25 speed Battlecruisers will pwn
Noocta
Profile Joined June 2010
France12578 Posts
February 11 2012 02:10 GMT
#2183
On February 11 2012 11:01 Dauntless wrote:
Please add this to OP.

Blizzard employee Aldrexus elaborated on the snipe nerf in a thread on the official forums:
Show nested quote +
We felt that the Snipe ability was countering broodlords and ultralisks slightly too well, but we wanted the Snipe ability to remain viable in the matchup. It’s important to keep in mind that zerg’s late game strength is not derived exclusively from their tier 3 units; much of their late game strength comes as a result of their ability to combine these higher tech units with other units, especially infestors. Accordingly, we elected to lower the ability’s base damage to increase the number of Snipes required to kill ultralisks and broodlords and supplement it by having it deal additional damage to Psionic units to reduce the number of snipes required to kill infestors.

We wanted to improve Snipe’s effectiveness against infestors since EMPs can be difficult to land due to the unit’s size, so we decided to increase the amount of total damage it deals to against Psionic units only. Making the ability deal 30 + 15 Light would reduce its effectiveness versus broodlords and ultralisks, but it would not provide the desired effect versus infestors. In fact, changing the bonus damage to + Light would make it more difficult to kill infestors, and we believe this would further weaken terran late game versus zerg. We understand that this change will require terran players to use more Snipes versus a variety of other units; however, we do not feel as if this will have a noticeable effect on balance since the ability isn’t used frequently versus units other than broodlords, ultralisks, infestors, and high templar. Our desire is not to redesign the ability or redefine the ghost’s role in the TvZ matchup, but to reduce its effectiveness versus broodlords and ultralisks while increasing its effectiveness versus infestors.

We appreciate all the constructive feedback we’ve received thus far. As a reminder, you’ll be able to test these changes first-hand once Patch 1.4.3 is placed on the PTR in the coming weeks, so we encourage you to try it out and let us know what you think.


Source


It's stupid imo.
You can't snipe the infestor against BL/Corruptor/Infestor play if the zerg is smart and bring some oversser. BL give cover to infestor from ghost, and inferstor give cover to BLs from marines. Withoput snipe on BLs, you just can"t kill the Broodlord. :/
We can"'t even snipe the overseer anymore since it's a caster but not a psyonic one !
" I'm not gonna fight you. I'm gonna kick your ass ! "
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
February 11 2012 02:10 GMT
#2184
On February 11 2012 11:08 lachy89 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 11:06 ValhallaDude wrote:
On February 11 2012 11:01 Reval wrote:
On February 11 2012 10:48 lachy89 wrote:
Zerg player

APM change > Awesome
Pheonix Change > I like it
Mule Change > Seems fine to me
Ghost Change > a bit too much, make snipe unusable on Massive and be done with it.


Protoss player

I agree with this. Snipe back to 45 and cannot target massive units

Why? Why? What are you even saying??? Snipe was used almost purely for broodlords and ultras, both of which are massive. Your proposed nerf is even worse than the nerf blizz is suggesting.


I was under the impression broods weren't massive, well then as an additional change make broods not massive also.



25+10 bio should be better than your suggestion I guess.
Torra
Profile Joined October 2011
Norway469 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-11 02:11:12
February 11 2012 02:11 GMT
#2185
On February 11 2012 11:05 lachy89 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 11:03 Scila wrote:
On February 11 2012 10:56 NoobCrunch wrote:
On February 11 2012 10:51 On_Slaught wrote:
On February 11 2012 10:48 lachy89 wrote:
Zerg player

APM change > Awesome
Pheonix Change > I like it
Mule Change > Seems fine to me
Ghost Change > a bit too much, make snipe unusable on Massive and be done with it.


Seems like making Snipe unusable on Massive Units would have been a solution that made much more sense. The 2 shot infestor is nice tho.



That is assuming that ghost snipe was imbalanced in the first place.


Which it wasn't...TvZ was still roughly 50/50 in late games, in fact Zerg has a general advantage in the late game...


I believe it would be better for the match up if ghosts countered 1 T3 unit and not the other, making ghosts unable to snipe ultras would make the match-up more interesting imo, and also shouldn't provide zerg with an extreme advantage (I don't think many people would complain that ultras are OP due to not being snipes).

Already as it is now, marauders are better vs ultras than ghosts. Do u really think using 11 snipes on one ultras is imbalanced?
shizna
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom803 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-11 02:16:03
February 11 2012 02:11 GMT
#2186
On February 11 2012 11:09 ValhallaDude wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 11:03 Cloud9157 wrote:
On February 11 2012 10:59 ValhallaDude wrote:
Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 +25 Psionic
We felt the Snipe ability was countering zerg broodlords and ultralisks slightly too well. Especially at the pro level, we were seeing a lot of games where terran players were playing very defensive games while massing ghosts to counter most of the options zerg players had at their disposal.

I do find this kind of absurd. Ghosts are all ready sickeningly expensive. Not only that but we have to invest significantly into infrastructure to pump out a lot of ghosts. Broodlord infestor corruptor was really something you needed ghosts to deal with. Because corruptors beat vikings for cost, infestors beat marines for cost, and broodlords kill siege tanks and everything else.

a 45-25 nerf is overboard. Ghosts are necessary to have any chance of success against broordlord corruptor infestor and removing them from the game leaves terran with very few if no options to deal with this composition without losing significantly more resources per exchange.


I'm not sure how actually BUFFING the Ghost against Infestors actually hurts its performance vs Zerg. Yeah, Ghosts can no longer Snipe BLs as well as they could before, but there is nothing to protect a BL if the Infestors are dead/don't have any energy, which the Ghost can still do.

Get rid of the Infestors and shoot everything else in the face with Vikings. I'm not sure how that is complicated.

On a side note, I do believe Ghosts do need to be more gas heavy. Should at least go back to the 150/150 cost.


Because any half competent will let a terran walk in all his ghosts, and snipe all his infestors. Yes.

Like I said, if terran has to invest both significantly into the infrastructure for making a lot of vikings AND ghosts, you've all ready put yourself at a massive advantage especially since vikings are only good against brood lords.


maybe he forgot to add that ghosts should be changed to have colossus legs so they can walk over ultralisks and broodlings in order to get in range of infestors.

seriously, if it was that easy for terran to beat broodlord/infestor - wouldn't it be obvious in tournaments by now? the only thing i've seen is MVP whining about how zerg is imba, and idra whining about how terran is imba.
Deezl
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States355 Posts
February 11 2012 02:11 GMT
#2187
I just switched to Terran now I have to switch back to Protoss... Why not just make it 35 + 15 to psionic? How about a bonus to light?

I mean seriously, halving the damage on one of the more skill intensive moves in the game that imo is going to destroy its earlygame potential. I want ghosts that can 1shot marines and put in work against zealots. Why are we removing that?
Three hundred lives of men I have walked this world, and now I have no time.
bucckevin
Profile Joined April 2011
858 Posts
February 11 2012 02:12 GMT
#2188
On February 11 2012 11:01 Torra wrote:
So basically what all u zergs are saying is that nothing should be able to stop ur BLs, corruptor, infestor deathball? It's not even like once terran gets a few ghosts out, it's gg for u. And u need macro like MVP to reach those high ghost counts. Still, the zerg deathball trades decent with high ghost counts, and then u can remax with a lower tier compostition which is better vs. terran's ghost/viking. Ghosts does not COUNTER every zerg unit. They do very good vs. infestors and BLs, and still the zerg can trade ecually with u. Ghosts are acutally not that cost effective vs. ultras, marauders work better.

Maybe it could be zergs time to change up things if they think ghosts are a problem? But naaah, nerfing terran some more seems better when terran is already the weakest race in lategame.

I really don't see how zerg can lose w/ a deathball now. How are u supposed to take out BLs w/ corruptor and infestor support? Vikings are not cost effective enough, Ghosts were already hard to get enough of, what now?




That's correct....... You let the zerg get to T3 and not kill them before 20 minute mark, you deserve to lose. You and your little T1 marines and T2 tanks shouldnt even be able to breath on zerg T3 units.(holding a straight face.)
jgelling
Profile Joined February 2011
55 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-11 02:16:36
February 11 2012 02:12 GMT
#2189
On February 11 2012 11:06 rogzardo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 11:04 jgelling wrote:
On February 11 2012 11:01 Reval wrote:
On February 11 2012 10:48 lachy89 wrote:
Zerg player

APM change > Awesome
Pheonix Change > I like it
Mule Change > Seems fine to me
Ghost Change > a bit too much, make snipe unusable on Massive and be done with it.


Protoss player

I agree with this. Snipe back to 45 and cannot target massive units

LOL, that'd be an even worse nerf - then ghosts wouldn't get the benefit of 2-sniping infestors patch 1.4.3 would give them AND be ENTIRELY useless against broods/ultras.

Why do people say things without mapping it out?


19 snipes to kill an ultralisk might as well be 1000. Ghosts aren't going to do shit against them anymore.


Actually no - being able to penetrate the 6 armor on a 300/200 tier 3 unit and deal a guaranteed 25 damage, when otherwise the ghost would deal a max of 7 damage a shot and marines 3 damage a shot, is pretty important. The idea that ghosts have to single-handedly kill super-expensive tier 3 units to be cost-efficient is ridiculous. Softening them up is significant, when you realize the ultra has to tank a lot of damage to get in range to deal ANY damage at all.

Anyhow, I don't think snipe should work against ultras at all - the unit is mediocre enough and tanks/marauders are so good vs. them along with the infinity of split, stimmed +3 marines firing from all sides that Terran hardly needs extra help countering them.

But yeah, 25 vs. broods, given their huge range, flying status, and the threat posed by fungal to marines and Vikings does sound like too much of a nerf. I'd probably just bar snipe from targeting ultras and leave it at 45 vs. broods if it were up to me.
X-baz
Profile Joined September 2009
9 Posts
February 11 2012 02:13 GMT
#2190
Looking forward to see the new Phoenix change, hoping my friend can use them to deal with Mutas in our team games, they can be so annoying :D

As a Terran player I always thought snipe was pretty good versus an unmicroed Zerg late game army, but seen it as about the same as how banes are good against an unmicroed Terran Bio army.

The problem I really have with the snipe nerf is not even just the nerf itself but the implications that the nerf comes with. I personally love diversity in a game, but with every nerf Terran is getting less options are viable for TvP and TvZ, which means that the Protoss player will KNOW I'm going Bio late game, and the Zerg player will KNOW I'm getting vikings to counter their Broodlords, which leaves little room for strategy when all you have to do is expect vikings or Bio and preemptively prepare for it effectively. This leaves little room for variation in a Terran players composition.

I also think Blizzard is expecting a little too much micro out of us lower league Terran players.

A sad day for Starcraft as a whole seeing as how diversity seems to be frowned upon.

Hope the pros can figure it out, or Zerg here I come! :D
I play Terran to have fun, if I just wanted to win I'd play Zerg...
FinalForm
Profile Joined August 2010
United States450 Posts
February 11 2012 02:14 GMT
#2191
"it's lame how snipe can counter a tier 3 Zerg army"

well, maybe it's lame how Terran doesn't even have a viable tier 3 army
Bodzilla
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia472 Posts
February 11 2012 02:14 GMT
#2192
oh my god.

Having my birthday party today and this is the greatest gift i could ever have.
but seriously ghosts where fucking BULLSHIT.

SO MUCH WIN
when life gives you lemons, make banelings
ValhallaDude
Profile Joined June 2011
United States24 Posts
February 11 2012 02:14 GMT
#2193
On February 11 2012 11:08 PatouPower wrote:
^Yeah, because obviously this game is a game of counters and saying things like "infestors beat marines for costs" (exactly what they are supposed to do) means a lot... And terran were doing fine before people started mass using snipe in their games. Everytime blizzard nerfs terrans, people cry for a few weeks before finding the next big thing because this is such a versatile race.

Overall the patch seems good. I don't like the change to phoenixes but that's only because I don't like the unit itself. I think they should stay an harrass unit and not be a solution to mutalisk. It could really be nice to see how they can be used in PvT battles though, against vikings and medivacs.


Look at how well brood, corruptor, and infestor work together to support each other and see how they will beat several things for cost. It doesn't even take half a brain to realize that it does matter.

And terrans were not doing fine before mass snipes. Brood infestor corruptor was a GIANT problem that required one to essentially play with not a single mistake to have a chance of winning.
shimbal
rogzardo
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
610 Posts
February 11 2012 02:15 GMT
#2194
On February 11 2012 11:12 jgelling wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 11:06 rogzardo wrote:
On February 11 2012 11:04 jgelling wrote:
On February 11 2012 11:01 Reval wrote:
On February 11 2012 10:48 lachy89 wrote:
Zerg player

APM change > Awesome
Pheonix Change > I like it
Mule Change > Seems fine to me
Ghost Change > a bit too much, make snipe unusable on Massive and be done with it.


Protoss player

I agree with this. Snipe back to 45 and cannot target massive units

LOL, that'd be an even worse nerf - then ghosts wouldn't get the benefit of 2-sniping infestors patch 1.4.3 would give them AND be ENTIRELY useless against broods/ultras.

Why do people say things without mapping it out?


19 snipes to kill an ultralisk might as well be 1000. Ghosts aren't going to do shit against them anymore.


Actually no - being able to penetrate the 6 armor on a 300/200 tier 3 unit and deal a guaranteed 25 damage, when otherwise the ghost would deal a max of 7 damage a shot and marines 3 damage a shot, is pretty important. The idea that ghosts have to single-handedly kill super-expensive tier 3 units to be cost-efficient is ridiculous. Softening them up is significant.

Anyhow, I don't think snipe should work against ultras at all - the unit is mediocre enough and tanks/marauders are so good vs. them along with the infinity of split, stimmed +3 marines firing from all sides that Terran hardly needs extra help countering them.

But yeah, 25 vs. broods, given their huge range, flying status, and the threat posed by fungal to marines and Vikings does sound like too much of a nerf. I'd probably just bar snipe from targeting ultras and leave it at 45 vs. broods if it were up to me.


All I'm saying that 19 snipes is like 4-5 ghosts of full energy to kill 1 ultra. It might as well be immune to snipe.
NoctemSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States771 Posts
February 11 2012 02:15 GMT
#2195
Yet another nerf for Terran and another buff for Toss.
You're seriously making Terran the worst race to choose. Players at all levels who play terran will agree that the mechanics are harder than any race and with these continued changes it's going to be even hard.
If you disagree, go play terran for a month.
They've just successfully made ghosts the most useless unit aside from emp'ing HT and festors. Whereis the Casters for both toss and Zerg are immensely powerful. Both are good mid/late game with huge splash damage. This is ridiculous.
http://www.twitch.tv/noctemsc <--Most epic fun times
Sylfyre
Profile Joined January 2012
Australia222 Posts
February 11 2012 02:17 GMT
#2196
I think this is probably one of my favourite patches yet (probably beaten by when they took out void ray speed but =P) Phoenix range is a pretty big change, maybe we can see some more protoss air-based builds, that would be pretty cool. Maybe PvP will become more phoenix based, rather than who has more collossi lol XD

and of course... Huzzah for the old APM being back =D =D
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
February 11 2012 02:17 GMT
#2197
On February 11 2012 11:15 NoctemSC wrote:
Yet another nerf for Terran and another buff for Toss.
You're seriously making Terran the worst race to choose. Players at all levels who play terran will agree that the mechanics are harder than any race and with these continued changes it's going to be even hard.
If you disagree, go play terran for a month.
They've just successfully made ghosts the most useless unit aside from emp'ing HT and festors. Whereis the Casters for both toss and Zerg are immensely powerful. Both are good mid/late game with huge splash damage. This is ridiculous.


Then EMP has huge splash as well?
rogzardo
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
610 Posts
February 11 2012 02:17 GMT
#2198
On February 11 2012 11:17 darkness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 11:15 NoctemSC wrote:
Yet another nerf for Terran and another buff for Toss.
You're seriously making Terran the worst race to choose. Players at all levels who play terran will agree that the mechanics are harder than any race and with these continued changes it's going to be even hard.
If you disagree, go play terran for a month.
They've just successfully made ghosts the most useless unit aside from emp'ing HT and festors. Whereis the Casters for both toss and Zerg are immensely powerful. Both are good mid/late game with huge splash damage. This is ridiculous.


Then EMP has huge splash as well?


No, they nerfed that.
Sanguinarius
Profile Joined January 2010
United States3427 Posts
February 11 2012 02:18 GMT
#2199
I like the mule change. I dont know how effective the phoenix one will be. We will have to see.
Your strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others -Heart of Darkness
Cloud9157
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2968 Posts
February 11 2012 02:18 GMT
#2200
I like how Terran are complaining that Ghosts can't counter every t3 anymore.

Like Ultras. Man, Terran has nothing that can do decent against those guys...
"Are you absolutely sure that armor only affects the health portion of a protoss army??? That doesn't sound right to me. source?" -Some idiot
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