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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 +25 Psionic
We felt the Snipe ability was countering zerg broodlords and ultralisks slightly too well. Especially at the pro level, we were seeing a lot of games where terran players were playing very defensive games while massing ghosts to counter most of the options zerg players had at their disposal.
I do find this kind of absurd. Ghosts are all ready sickeningly expensive. Not only that but we have to invest significantly into infrastructure to pump out a lot of ghosts. Broodlord infestor corruptor was really something you needed ghosts to deal with. Because corruptors beat vikings for cost, infestors beat marines for cost, and broodlords kill siege tanks and everything else.
a 45-25 nerf is overboard. Ghosts are necessary to have any chance of success against broordlord corruptor infestor and removing them from the game leaves terran with very few if no options to deal with this composition without losing significantly more resources per exchange.
On February 11 2012 10:53 Niazger wrote:
I think its pretty bad game design that you have to spam a button in order to kill something. I mean 21 shots for an ultralisk? It might be fine from a balance standpoint but it just doesnt feel right. If you do reduce the damage done aiganst zerg t3 it should at least scale with units health. Just let it do 45 dmg against workers/lings and scale from there (maybe in the 30s for zealots) up to 25 against broods/ultras.
21 shots to snipe an ultralisk. It was pretty absurd before and now it feels like it will be impossible. They're essentially doubling the skill and speed needed to use snipe and doing nothing about the faulty ai associated with sniping. And... the whole point of ghosts was to snipe broods and ultras, and maybe random infestors on the side. the change you are proposing would not help at all.
21 shots to kill an ultralisk. That makes an upgraded marauder superior to ghosts in fighting ultras. Just goes to show how bad ghosts are now.
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Everyone complains about terrans not playing the macro game, but jesus christ, if blizzard doesn't want us to what can we do?
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So basically what all u zergs are saying is that nothing should be able to stop ur BLs, corruptor, infestor deathball? It's not even like once terran gets a few ghosts out, it's gg for u. And u need macro like MVP to reach those high ghost counts. Still, the zerg deathball trades decent with high ghost counts, and then u can remax with a lower tier compostition which is better vs. terran's ghost/viking. Ghosts does not COUNTER every zerg unit. They do very good vs. infestors and BLs, and still the zerg can trade ecually with u. Ghosts are acutally not that cost effective vs. ultras, marauders work better.
Maybe it could be zergs time to change up things if they think ghosts are a problem? But naaah, nerfing terran some more seems better when terran is already the weakest race in lategame.
I really don't see how zerg can lose w/ a deathball now. How are u supposed to take out BLs w/ corruptor and infestor support? Vikings are not cost effective enough, Ghosts were already hard to get enough of, what now?
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Please add this to OP.
Blizzard employee Aldrexus elaborated on the snipe nerf in a thread on the official forums:
We felt that the Snipe ability was countering broodlords and ultralisks slightly too well, but we wanted the Snipe ability to remain viable in the matchup. It’s important to keep in mind that zerg’s late game strength is not derived exclusively from their tier 3 units; much of their late game strength comes as a result of their ability to combine these higher tech units with other units, especially infestors. Accordingly, we elected to lower the ability’s base damage to increase the number of Snipes required to kill ultralisks and broodlords and supplement it by having it deal additional damage to Psionic units to reduce the number of snipes required to kill infestors.
We wanted to improve Snipe’s effectiveness against infestors since EMPs can be difficult to land due to the unit’s size, so we decided to increase the amount of total damage it deals to against Psionic units only. Making the ability deal 30 + 15 Light would reduce its effectiveness versus broodlords and ultralisks, but it would not provide the desired effect versus infestors. In fact, changing the bonus damage to + Light would make it more difficult to kill infestors, and we believe this would further weaken terran late game versus zerg. We understand that this change will require terran players to use more Snipes versus a variety of other units; however, we do not feel as if this will have a noticeable effect on balance since the ability isn’t used frequently versus units other than broodlords, ultralisks, infestors, and high templar. Our desire is not to redesign the ability or redefine the ghost’s role in the TvZ matchup, but to reduce its effectiveness versus broodlords and ultralisks while increasing its effectiveness versus infestors.
We appreciate all the constructive feedback we’ve received thus far. As a reminder, you’ll be able to test these changes first-hand once Patch 1.4.3 is placed on the PTR in the coming weeks, so we encourage you to try it out and let us know what you think.
Source
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On February 11 2012 10:48 lachy89 wrote:
Zerg player
APM change > Awesome
Pheonix Change > I like it
Mule Change > Seems fine to me
Ghost Change > a bit too much, make snipe unusable on Massive and be done with it.
Protoss player
I agree with this. Snipe back to 45 and cannot target massive units
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Yep, Fleet Beacon needs to be 300/100 or 200/200 at least. It's too much to justify +1 range for phoenixes. :/
And yeah.. snipe nerf is too much.
/Protoss
Edit: Oops, +2. Shame on me although I had some doubts regarding range. 
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Last 2 posters.
Blizzard wants Snipe to be viable vs BL, not useless.
It's +2 ranger for phoenix, not +1.
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On February 11 2012 10:56 NoobCrunch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 10:51 On_Slaught wrote:On February 11 2012 10:48 lachy89 wrote:
Zerg player
APM change > Awesome
Pheonix Change > I like it
Mule Change > Seems fine to me
Ghost Change > a bit too much, make snipe unusable on Massive and be done with it. Seems like making Snipe unusable on Massive Units would have been a solution that made much more sense. The 2 shot infestor is nice tho. That is assuming that ghost snipe was imbalanced in the first place.
Which it wasn't...TvZ was still roughly 50/50 in late games, in fact Zerg has a general advantage in the late game...
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On February 11 2012 10:59 ValhallaDude wrote:
Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 +25 Psionic
We felt the Snipe ability was countering zerg broodlords and ultralisks slightly too well. Especially at the pro level, we were seeing a lot of games where terran players were playing very defensive games while massing ghosts to counter most of the options zerg players had at their disposal.
I do find this kind of absurd. Ghosts are all ready sickeningly expensive. Not only that but we have to invest significantly into infrastructure to pump out a lot of ghosts. Broodlord infestor corruptor was really something you needed ghosts to deal with. Because corruptors beat vikings for cost, infestors beat marines for cost, and broodlords kill siege tanks and everything else.
a 45-25 nerf is overboard. Ghosts are necessary to have any chance of success against broordlord corruptor infestor and removing them from the game leaves terran with very few if no options to deal with this composition without losing significantly more resources per exchange.
I'm not sure how actually BUFFING the Ghost against Infestors actually hurts its performance vs Zerg. Yeah, Ghosts can no longer Snipe BLs as well as they could before, but there is nothing to protect a BL if the Infestors are dead/don't have any energy, which the Ghost can still do.
Get rid of the Infestors and shoot everything else in the face with Vikings. I'm not sure how that is complicated.
On a side note, I do believe Ghosts do need to be more gas heavy. Should at least go back to the 150/150 cost.
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I'm posting twice within 5 minutes. This patch is fucked. Patch notes = gg terran
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On February 11 2012 11:01 Reval wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 10:48 lachy89 wrote:
Zerg player
APM change > Awesome
Pheonix Change > I like it
Mule Change > Seems fine to me
Ghost Change > a bit too much, make snipe unusable on Massive and be done with it. Protoss player I agree with this. Snipe back to 45 and cannot target massive units
LOL, that'd be an even worse nerf, a hugely worse nerf - then ghosts wouldn't get the benefit of 2-sniping infestors patch 1.4.3 would give them AND be ENTIRELY useless against broods/ultras.
Why do people say things without mapping it out?
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On February 11 2012 11:03 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 10:56 NoobCrunch wrote:On February 11 2012 10:51 On_Slaught wrote:On February 11 2012 10:48 lachy89 wrote:
Zerg player
APM change > Awesome
Pheonix Change > I like it
Mule Change > Seems fine to me
Ghost Change > a bit too much, make snipe unusable on Massive and be done with it. Seems like making Snipe unusable on Massive Units would have been a solution that made much more sense. The 2 shot infestor is nice tho. That is assuming that ghost snipe was imbalanced in the first place. Which it wasn't...TvZ was still roughly 50/50 in late games, in fact Zerg has a general advantage in the late game...
I believe it would be better for the match up if ghosts countered 1 T3 unit and not the other, making ghosts unable to snipe ultras would make the match-up more interesting imo, and also shouldn't provide zerg with an extreme advantage (I don't think many people would complain that ultras are OP due to not being snipes).
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All the changes seem fine to me for the most part. Snipe seems to be WAY over done. Essentially doubling the number of snipes to kill an ultra or brood is pretty outrageous. Im not sure why they didnt just increase the energy cost of snipe so it cant be used as much.
Just makes the ghost harder to use well for less skilled players... especially weird in a time when lower skilled terrans are already struggling. My 2 cents anyway
(I did play terran, but I dont play SC2 anymore, so this is mostly based on what Ive seen in pro games/on the forums)
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On February 11 2012 11:01 Reval wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 10:48 lachy89 wrote:
Zerg player
APM change > Awesome
Pheonix Change > I like it
Mule Change > Seems fine to me
Ghost Change > a bit too much, make snipe unusable on Massive and be done with it. Protoss player I agree with this. Snipe back to 45 and cannot target massive units
Why? Why? What are you even saying??? Snipe was used almost purely for broodlords and ultras, both of which are massive. Your proposed nerf is even worse than the nerf blizz is suggesting.
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On February 11 2012 11:04 jgelling wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 11:01 Reval wrote:On February 11 2012 10:48 lachy89 wrote:
Zerg player
APM change > Awesome
Pheonix Change > I like it
Mule Change > Seems fine to me
Ghost Change > a bit too much, make snipe unusable on Massive and be done with it. Protoss player I agree with this. Snipe back to 45 and cannot target massive units LOL, that'd be an even worse nerf - then ghosts wouldn't get the benefit of 2-sniping infestors patch 1.4.3 would give them AND be ENTIRELY useless against broods/ultras. Why do people say things without mapping it out?
19 snipes to kill an ultralisk might as well be 1000. Ghosts aren't going to do shit against them anymore.
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On February 11 2012 10:51 Murlox wrote:Additional blizzard employee comment : Show nested quote +We felt that the Snipe ability was countering broodlords and ultralisks slightly too well, but we wanted the Snipe ability to remain viable in the matchup. It’s important to keep in mind that zerg’s late game strength is not derived exclusively from their tier 3 units; much of their late game strength comes as a result of their ability to combine these higher tech units with other units, especially infestors. Accordingly, we elected to lower the ability’s base damage to increase the number of Snipes required to kill ultralisks and broodlords and supplement it by having it deal additional damage to Psionic units to reduce the number of snipes required to kill infestors.
We wanted to improve Snipe’s effectiveness against infestors since EMPs can be difficult to land due to the unit’s size, so we decided to increase the amount of total damage it deals to against Psionic units only. Making the ability deal 30 + 15 Light would reduce its effectiveness versus broodlords and ultralisks, but it would not provide the desired effect versus infestors. In fact, changing the bonus damage to + Light would make it more difficult to kill infestors, and we believe this would further weaken terran late game versus zerg. We understand that this change will require terran players to use more Snipes versus a variety of other units; however, we do not feel as if this will have a noticeable effect on balance since the ability isn’t used frequently versus units other than broodlords, ultralisks, infestors, and high templar. Our desire is not to redesign the ability or redefine the ghost’s role in the TvZ matchup, but to reduce its effectiveness versus broodlords and ultralisks while increasing its effectiveness versus infestors.
We appreciate all the constructive feedback we’ve received thus far. As a reminder, you’ll be able to test these changes first-hand once Patch 1.4.3 is placed on the PTR in the coming weeks, so we encourage you to try it out and let us know what you think. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=2--- On a side note, make banelings psionic!!!
please god i hope there's recently been a virus or something at blizz hq and all of the ppl with common sense were off sick... that's the only explanation for "We understand that this change will require terran players to use more Snipes versus a variety of other units; however, we do not feel as if this will have a noticeable effect on balance since the ability isn’t used frequently versus units other than broodlords, ultralisks, infestors, and high templar." coming directly from the horses mouth.
just because something isn't used frequently doesn't mean it's okay to effectively removed from the game... otherwise see what the reaction is like when you go ahead and remove nydus, hydralisk, reaper, seeker missile, thor cannon, neural parasite, battlecruiser, carrier, graviton beam, ventral sacs.
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^Yeah, because obviously this game is a game of counters and saying things like "infestors beat marines for costs" (exactly what they are supposed to do) means a lot... And terran were doing fine before people started mass using snipe in their games. Everytime blizzard nerfs terrans, people cry for a few weeks before finding the next big thing because this is such a versatile race.
Overall the patch seems good. I don't like the change to phoenixes but that's only because I don't like the unit itself. I think they should stay an harrass unit and not be a solution to mutalisk. It could really be nice to see how they can be used in PvT battles though, against vikings and medivacs.
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Big and questionable changes Blizzard ! I am happy to see them none the less, as a Terran player I will suffer a lot because of the ghost change TT. But I am excited to see what late-game strategies emerge at the highest levels so I can try to mimic them.
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On February 11 2012 11:06 ValhallaDude wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 11:01 Reval wrote:On February 11 2012 10:48 lachy89 wrote:
Zerg player
APM change > Awesome
Pheonix Change > I like it
Mule Change > Seems fine to me
Ghost Change > a bit too much, make snipe unusable on Massive and be done with it. Protoss player I agree with this. Snipe back to 45 and cannot target massive units Why? Why? What are you even saying??? Snipe was used almost purely for broodlords and ultras, both of which are massive. Your proposed nerf is even worse than the nerf blizz is suggesting.
I was under the impression broods weren't massive, well then as an additional change make broods not massive also.
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On February 11 2012 11:03 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 10:59 ValhallaDude wrote:
Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 +25 Psionic
We felt the Snipe ability was countering zerg broodlords and ultralisks slightly too well. Especially at the pro level, we were seeing a lot of games where terran players were playing very defensive games while massing ghosts to counter most of the options zerg players had at their disposal.
I do find this kind of absurd. Ghosts are all ready sickeningly expensive. Not only that but we have to invest significantly into infrastructure to pump out a lot of ghosts. Broodlord infestor corruptor was really something you needed ghosts to deal with. Because corruptors beat vikings for cost, infestors beat marines for cost, and broodlords kill siege tanks and everything else.
a 45-25 nerf is overboard. Ghosts are necessary to have any chance of success against broordlord corruptor infestor and removing them from the game leaves terran with very few if no options to deal with this composition without losing significantly more resources per exchange. I'm not sure how actually BUFFING the Ghost against Infestors actually hurts its performance vs Zerg. Yeah, Ghosts can no longer Snipe BLs as well as they could before, but there is nothing to protect a BL if the Infestors are dead/don't have any energy, which the Ghost can still do. Get rid of the Infestors and shoot everything else in the face with Vikings. I'm not sure how that is complicated. On a side note, I do believe Ghosts do need to be more gas heavy. Should at least go back to the 150/150 cost.
Because any half competent will let a terran walk in all his ghosts, and snipe all his infestors. Yes.
Like I said, if terran has to invest both significantly into the infrastructure for making a lot of vikings AND ghosts, you've all ready put yourself at a massive advantage especially since vikings are only good against brood lords.
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EPT
