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Carmac responds to IEM Criticism: "Bring on the pitchforks…

Forum Index > SC2 General
418 CommentsPost a Reply
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Mekare
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany393 Posts
January 19 2012 23:32 GMT
#121
Thanks for the statement Carmac, it was all very confusing and frustrating throughout the delays when nobody knew what was going on and people went wild with flaming and ptichfork-sharpening. Having some intel on what was causing the problems helps (although trolls will keep trolling, of course).
Really hope tomorrow will see less problems!
Inex
Profile Joined October 2010
Bulgaria443 Posts
January 19 2012 23:33 GMT
#122
The graphics settings weren't maxed out, when I was watching Bitterdam's commentary. No idea if it was the computers or the casters' preferences, but it was noticeable. I am really happy that Zenio made this huge decision to rematch such a decisive game. NightEnd losing today was really unfortunate and the way they handled Grubby's game was just sad. I hope the best man wins tomorrow in the rematch, but Zenio really gets all my respect points. GLHF tomorrow.
suddendeathTV
Profile Joined January 2012
Sweden388 Posts
January 19 2012 23:33 GMT
#123
On January 20 2012 08:30 figq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2012 08:23 sd_andeh wrote:
On January 20 2012 08:20 figq wrote:
On January 20 2012 08:14 sd_andeh wrote:
People need to realize the difference between Blizzard not having a LAN-setting, and COMPUTERS not being able to handle StarCraft 2.

These problems weren't caused by neither routing or connection, they were caused by the computers. Hence all bullshit about Blizzard not having a LAN-setting is irrelevant as even if they were playing a LAN-mode - the lag would remain.

Good post by Carmac, but it's sad to see players fly all the way to Kiev to play in a tournament, and lose due to IEM not testing the computers enough / providing good enough computers. Some people were undeniably ROBBED of games because of it. Let's hope for a better tomorrow!
To remind you that there was lag on all computers, according to WhiteRa, just on some it was much worse, and on others it was playable - but still "not normal".


The sole reason that some computers lagged more than other proves that it wasn't a battle.net issue. Besides, more people would have complained who were playing on the EU server in case it was a battle.net-related issue. Just read twitter what the pros say, especially ThorZain's.

Quoting:
mouzThorZaIN
How can they bring computers that cant handle the COMPUTER GAMES they want to play at their COMPUTER game tournament? It doesn't make sense.

Some computers can have network issues that others don't, due to settings or software. Connection from there to Bnet isn't the same as any other connection from EU to Bnet. So these two arguments aren't convincing at all.

Of course, I have no idea what the specs of the computers were, so it could be just that the computers were not good enough, but that would be really unusual. Guess we should wait for further clarification about it.


While it's true what you say, the arguement that the lags happen at 200vs200 fights rules out internetlag. Of course there might have been internetrelated lags as well, as they were lagging even in early game.
Information is everything
Parsistamon
Profile Joined July 2010
United States390 Posts
January 19 2012 23:33 GMT
#124
As disappointing as a day like this is for everyone, it's really hard for me to blame the organizers. As Carmac said, there are things the tournament could have done better. But even if all those things were done, to what degree would it have improved the experience? Would it have eliminated crippling lag spikes? .

So long as tournaments are held on the internet, there is potential for massive disruptions, which particularly hurt for companies like MLG and ESL which specialize in high-investment short-run events. Today probably constituted a pretty massive loss for ESL, and it's hard to look anywhere other than blizzard (read: Activision) for blame.

It's worth noting that the loss here is not only in ad revenue: all the results of this tournament have lost some credibility as a result of potentially skewed group results. That hurts the players in addition to the organizers.
delchuu
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany166 Posts
January 19 2012 23:34 GMT
#125
I dont get it anyways why no Lan Support anymore :O
Victory Loves Preparation
NekoFlandre
Profile Joined March 2011
United States497 Posts
January 19 2012 23:36 GMT
#126
Meh, stuff happens.
Computers ar enot peferct, and nor can a connection be 100% SUPER PERFECT all the time.

Understand crap happens, it migh effect us and the players? But can it be avoided, sadly no.
Kitty Flandre....even more scary..
JayJay_90
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany1632 Posts
January 19 2012 23:36 GMT
#127
Probs to Zenio, although in the official statement it doesn't really sound like he had such a big influence on the decision: Link.
Freye
Profile Joined August 2010
Denmark14 Posts
January 19 2012 23:37 GMT
#128
On January 20 2012 08:28 Apollo324 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2012 08:21 Freye wrote:
On January 20 2012 08:19 Apollo324 wrote:
On January 20 2012 08:17 floor exercise wrote:
On January 20 2012 08:15 Apollo324 wrote:
Blizzard isn't just hiding a button that says "RELEASE LAN". Not that simple, sorry.

The way BNet 2.0 is built, all of your games, all interactions between the players, the record of where each unit is, EVERYTHING is mediated on the server side. Your SC2 client DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO HOST A GAME! To provide LAN support, Blizzard would have to implement all of the server functionality on a client side program. The development time and cost would be huge. It's not going to happen.

Blizzard has said this much publicly. However, they have also said that they are working on a way of providing portable servers to major tournaments. Hypothetically, a year from now, MLG, DH, GSL will have their own BNet servers that can be run locally, removing these problems. Again, this will take time, but it's supposedly in the works.

Really sucks to see major tournaments suffering from technical issues, and I can't imagine being a progamer and suffering from random lag spikes wrecking my games, but I don't think people can casually throw this at Blizzard's feet.

My $0.02

This is so wrong it's physically painful to read.


Explain please? This is based on interviews with BNet 2.0 engineers and Browder.


Right now you connect to a server cluster that is far away, therefore it lags. If you move the servers next to you computer you have lan. Lan mode is implemented by setting a bnet server next to your computer. The only client side change is changing the IP you connect to from SC2.

This is pretty basic stuff >.>


In other words the portable servers that Blizzard is discussing...

The LAN support that people are crying for is asking for public release of (part of) a BNet2.0 client to run in parallel to their client side SC2. This is the standard model for LAN support.

The BNet2.0 code is almost certainly written to take advantage of a parallel computing environment rather than a single, relatively small machine. Changing that alone requires significant development resources. Also, it causes a MASSIVE security risk from reverse engineering the BNet2.0 architecture. Finally, the release of such server functionality would cost Blizzard any degree of control on tournament and ladder structures. And whether you agree to how Blizz runs their ladders and tournament contracts, it's their IP and they have the right to protect it.


If it really takes advantage of a parallel computing environment, then it should be programmed to add new/more parallels to the environment, which means it's quite simple to have 1 machine only. You just don't add more than 1... It'll be slower than normal with a ton of servers, yeah, but with such little traffic on it, it'll be fast as shit anyway.

Also the whole BNet 2.0 can be faked in the protocol, ie. you have no friends etc. It really isn't a development problem... Except they don't want to put > 0 dollars into something they can get away with putting = 0 into (standard business procedure), also it's probably true that they are worried over security issues.

I'm not talking about running ladders or managing contracts. I'm just saying from a development standpoint it's a choice of money, not technical difficulty.
pew? MOAR PEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEPEW
Ragoo
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany2773 Posts
January 19 2012 23:37 GMT
#129
Shit happens and you are obviously doing your best to fix it and be transparent about it! Don't blame you.
Member of TPW mapmaking team/// twitter.com/Ragoo_ /// "goody represents border between explainable reason and supernatural" Cloud
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
January 19 2012 23:37 GMT
#130
On January 20 2012 08:33 sd_andeh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2012 08:30 figq wrote:
On January 20 2012 08:23 sd_andeh wrote:
On January 20 2012 08:20 figq wrote:
On January 20 2012 08:14 sd_andeh wrote:
People need to realize the difference between Blizzard not having a LAN-setting, and COMPUTERS not being able to handle StarCraft 2.

These problems weren't caused by neither routing or connection, they were caused by the computers. Hence all bullshit about Blizzard not having a LAN-setting is irrelevant as even if they were playing a LAN-mode - the lag would remain.

Good post by Carmac, but it's sad to see players fly all the way to Kiev to play in a tournament, and lose due to IEM not testing the computers enough / providing good enough computers. Some people were undeniably ROBBED of games because of it. Let's hope for a better tomorrow!
To remind you that there was lag on all computers, according to WhiteRa, just on some it was much worse, and on others it was playable - but still "not normal".


The sole reason that some computers lagged more than other proves that it wasn't a battle.net issue. Besides, more people would have complained who were playing on the EU server in case it was a battle.net-related issue. Just read twitter what the pros say, especially ThorZain's.

Quoting:
mouzThorZaIN
How can they bring computers that cant handle the COMPUTER GAMES they want to play at their COMPUTER game tournament? It doesn't make sense.

Some computers can have network issues that others don't, due to settings or software. Connection from there to Bnet isn't the same as any other connection from EU to Bnet. So these two arguments aren't convincing at all.

Of course, I have no idea what the specs of the computers were, so it could be just that the computers were not good enough, but that would be really unusual. Guess we should wait for further clarification about it.


While it's true what you say, the arguement that the lags happen at 200vs200 fights rules out internetlag. Of course there might have been internetrelated lags as well, as they were lagging even in early game.
Indeed, that's the most compelling argument about ... insufficient hardware?... (wow, would be strange). But, I think a couple of the most critical moments of lag with complaints from the players were not during maxed out battles, so I'm not sure it's that.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
attenzionee
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany40 Posts
January 19 2012 23:38 GMT
#131
Its not the Problem only on this event. I cant remember an event in the last 2 Years of the ESL where everything was fine.

The streamquality suxx like hell - Every sc2 private Stream is much better than the sc2.HD Stream by ESL

So many problems with the Computers / Lags / etc... cant believe that there still the same people working since 2 years..
Cocacooh
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway1510 Posts
January 19 2012 23:38 GMT
#132
On January 20 2012 08:21 obsKura wrote:
this was just tweeted:

@SC2ZergLair
Zenio has agreed to a rematch with NightEnD due to lag problems in the final game of their bo3. Really good sportsmanship from @LiquidZenio.
1 minute ago via web


Now thats sportsmanship, mad props to Zenio.
suddendeathTV
Profile Joined January 2012
Sweden388 Posts
January 19 2012 23:39 GMT
#133
On January 20 2012 08:36 NekoFlandre wrote:
Meh, stuff happens.
Computers ar enot peferct, and nor can a connection be 100% SUPER PERFECT all the time.

Understand crap happens, it migh effect us and the players? But can it be avoided, sadly no.


This ^

I don't like the fact that players are forced to play under these circumstances though, and games should be postponed or a non-accurate result will occur. People losing games because of it that they would never lose otherwise.

However I guess they're on a tight schedule and the games cannot be postponed as then they wouldn't have time to play all the games they need to play in this tournament. So what does one do? No idea, but having players play in order to decide "who's the best" is impossible with lag, sadly.
Information is everything
Chengakz
Profile Joined January 2012
United States163 Posts
January 19 2012 23:39 GMT
#134
On January 20 2012 08:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
'Throughout the entire situation - from the start until after all of his games, he was considerate and understanding and his behaviour was very professional.'- Carmac on Naniwa. Was nice to see this as the amount of negative speculation that was flowing around Nani was a bit over-the-top.



So sad about the whole situation. I understand Naniwa's feelings and I know the organizers cannot control everything. I think I reacted more to what Naniwa said that he will never attend another IEM even if he wins this one. I hope it's not true and he only said it in the heat of the moment. For those who are fast to judge, reflect upon yourself: have you never said anything you did not mean when you were frustrated? Good luck to all the players tomorrow!
For Aiur!
CaptainCrush
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States785 Posts
January 19 2012 23:40 GMT
#135
Kinda lame if you ask me, lag spikes are going to occur anywhere and at any time, regardless of how awesome the internet connection is. That is just a fact of gaming when there is no longer LAN. Its unfortuante for the pros, but they all stand the same chance of lag, and when it happens to one person in a game, it happens to both.... It sucks that Nightend needed to blink his stalkers at that exact moment, but it could have happend 3 secs earlier when [whoever] needed to move their broods into position. People need to just relax sometimes...
EG.Thorzain
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden164 Posts
January 19 2012 23:42 GMT
#136
Everyone i spoke to that are at the event (4-5 players) were telling me that the computers were the issue, that they were crap. Not that the connection was faulty.
Thanks to Roberi for taking care of my TL fanclub! Also a thanks to all my fans in and outside my TL fanclub :). Fighting~~!
Let it Raine
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1245 Posts
January 19 2012 23:42 GMT
#137
carmac bossin' it up like always
Grandmaster Zerg x14. Diamond 1 LoL. MLG 50, Halo 3. Raine.
suddendeathTV
Profile Joined January 2012
Sweden388 Posts
January 19 2012 23:43 GMT
#138
On January 20 2012 08:37 figq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2012 08:33 sd_andeh wrote:
On January 20 2012 08:30 figq wrote:
On January 20 2012 08:23 sd_andeh wrote:
On January 20 2012 08:20 figq wrote:
On January 20 2012 08:14 sd_andeh wrote:
People need to realize the difference between Blizzard not having a LAN-setting, and COMPUTERS not being able to handle StarCraft 2.

These problems weren't caused by neither routing or connection, they were caused by the computers. Hence all bullshit about Blizzard not having a LAN-setting is irrelevant as even if they were playing a LAN-mode - the lag would remain.

Good post by Carmac, but it's sad to see players fly all the way to Kiev to play in a tournament, and lose due to IEM not testing the computers enough / providing good enough computers. Some people were undeniably ROBBED of games because of it. Let's hope for a better tomorrow!
To remind you that there was lag on all computers, according to WhiteRa, just on some it was much worse, and on others it was playable - but still "not normal".


The sole reason that some computers lagged more than other proves that it wasn't a battle.net issue. Besides, more people would have complained who were playing on the EU server in case it was a battle.net-related issue. Just read twitter what the pros say, especially ThorZain's.

Quoting:
mouzThorZaIN
How can they bring computers that cant handle the COMPUTER GAMES they want to play at their COMPUTER game tournament? It doesn't make sense.

Some computers can have network issues that others don't, due to settings or software. Connection from there to Bnet isn't the same as any other connection from EU to Bnet. So these two arguments aren't convincing at all.

Of course, I have no idea what the specs of the computers were, so it could be just that the computers were not good enough, but that would be really unusual. Guess we should wait for further clarification about it.


While it's true what you say, the arguement that the lags happen at 200vs200 fights rules out internetlag. Of course there might have been internetrelated lags as well, as they were lagging even in early game.
Indeed, that's the most compelling argument about ... insufficient hardware?... (wow, would be strange). But, I think a couple of the most critical moments of lag with complaints from the players were not during maxed out battles, so I'm not sure it's that.


Mhm... well I reacted mostly to the NightEnd game vs Zenio where he obviously lost the entire series due to that one huge battle that the computer couldn't handle (this time it was not the internet, and it was the most important situation of the game). But Grubby having to put down a hatch-block-pylon 3 times for it to actually start warping in has probably to do with internetrelated issues. Either way, my point in all this is that you can't blame Blizzard for this, even though I would very much want to have LAN-mode in the game. The fault is sadly at ESL whether Carmac makes a nice post or not. I've always loved Carmac though ever since his old interview of QuakeWorld legend ParadokS (http://videos.quakeworld.nu/video/dhw07-1on1-with-paradoks-ggl-wire/) xD so I very much appreciate his post.
Information is everything
Darkhorse
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States23455 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-19 23:46:05
January 19 2012 23:43 GMT
#139
I wasn't watching but after reading twitter and this, I have to come to the conclusion that this isn't really IEM's fault. There haven't been problems at past IEM tournaments, and some problems are just out of a tournament organizer's control. I certainly wish there was LAN support so that tourneys didn't have to rely on the internet connection. However, I find players comments that they won't be attending future IEM events because of this a bit immature and irrational. I guess sometimes people demand perfection where perfection isn't possible, and whoever demands that will always be dissapointed. Props for the post and GL with the rest of the tourney.
(BTW most players are handling this with a great deal of professionalism, such as Zenio and Naniwa. It's really only a select few that are voicing serious complaints.)
EDIT: I made a somewhat underinformed post, as I don't really know the condition of the computers used. If it was a computer problem and not a connection problem, I can see why people would blame IEM. Not to the point of boycotting their tourneys though.
WriterRecently Necro'd (?)
suddendeathTV
Profile Joined January 2012
Sweden388 Posts
January 19 2012 23:44 GMT
#140
On January 20 2012 08:42 Thorzain wrote:
Everyone i spoke to that are at the event (4-5 players) were telling me that the computers were the issue, that they were crap. Not that the connection was faulty.


^ tataah. Thanks ThorZain
Information is everything
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