Is it someone who earn money to play the game? (Gold player who teach bronze league could earn a lot if he's a good coach and know how to sell himself/herself).
Is it someone who play and achieve high rank in tournament?
Is it someone who's widely known by the community?
My definition would be "To be paid to play in a respected clan".
Btw, it's a bit like how to define a pianist? I mean, I've played in some weddings (got paid for) and enjoy playing. I've also taught people.. but I don't consider myself a pianist. If I was in a band who'd pay me to play (even if I was less good!), I think I'd say I'm a pianist.
What do you think?
I ask that because I often see gamers such as CatZ being asked "Do you want to become a pro-gamer like Idra or Destiny IIRC". I'm sure someone can link the video of Catz being mad to that question xD
I think the definition is pretty strait forward. Pro or professional meaning it is something you do for a living. Really even if you are making money off of it then I would say you are a professional gamer. Doesn't have to be tournament money either. It could just as easily be income from streaming.
On January 11 2012 10:51 iSometric wrote: Paid to play. That's about it.
agreed, but too simplistic. i won a $5 tournament once (4th place), but i am nowhere near progamer. you have to be someone who can sustain your lifestyle off the money. if you can't, you are not a professional player in my mind.
Pro, short for professional, as in, this is their profession. You are a pro gamer when playing the game is your job. You are semi-pro when your income is not mostly based from playing starcraft2. This is the same as a pro hockey player, a pro volleyball player. Any other person who isnt playing as a professional is considered recreational, even if you are in grandmasters and spend unhealthy amounts of time on this game.
Kazie is incorrect. You can be a pro through coaching if it is your entire means of income and you consider it a job. You would be a pro coach.
IF you make a living off playing, you are by definition a pro-gamer. You may get paid winning minor tournaments but that doesn't make you a pro. By definition, professional means it is your main source of income.
this is the awkward part about the definition of a progamer, Is that everyone's is different and when someone calls themselves a pro gamer that doesn't fit their personal definition they rage at said person...
I know this as a fact, as it happens every time I stream and play a strong a player that attracts parts of their viewership to my stream.
My definition is, someone who lives off of tournament winnings. Which means i qualify by my own definition. Yet people cant respect that lol...
On January 11 2012 11:07 IMoperator wrote: Someone that can live off of what they get paid and play full time.
I would agree with that. I guess it depends on your definition of professional. In my opinion, someone who supports themselves with the game, and no outside job, would be classified as a progamer.
A pro-gamer is someone who is paid to play a game. Any person that can make their living off of a game to me is a pro-gamer that is specifically successful, but anyone who is fully devoted to gaming and is paid to play it in general is a progamer to me.
On January 11 2012 14:13 KiF1rE wrote: this is the awkward part about the definition of a progamer, Is that everyone's is different and when someone calls themselves a pro gamer that doesn't fit their personal definition they rage at said person...
I know this as a fact, as it happens every time I stream and play a strong a player that attracts parts of their viewership to my stream.
My definition is, someone who lives off of tournament winnings. Which means i qualify by my own definition. Yet people cant respect that lol...
Yeah, I remember when Ret played you. . .
Anyways, I don't think the defination of what a progamer is matters, what matters is a player distinguishing himself from the rest of the field. This can can come from results or exceptional streaming, until then it's a rather useless defination. Its not like saying "I am progamer" or "that person is a progamer" elevates their status as a gamer.
On January 11 2012 14:29 Ares[Effort] wrote: Someone who has passed Rookie league and then drafted by a professional team
Corrected it
What would you consider a "Rookie league"?
A gamer who uses competitive gaming as their sole source of income (streaming excluded). This does not refer to someone who games all the time and attains some level of skill; being a pro gamer means you use it as your profession, and that you actually do earn money.
On January 11 2012 14:29 Ares[Effort] wrote: Someone who has passed Rookie league and then drafted by a professional team
Corrected it
What would you consider a "Rookie league"?
A gamer who uses competitive gaming as their sole source of income (streaming excluded). This does not refer to someone who games all the time and attains some level of skill; being a pro gamer means you use it as your profession, and that you actually do earn money.
I urge you to read Efforts post again. Then read my quote with the correction. If you still don't get it now, then PM me
Edit:
On January 11 2012 15:06 Cambam wrote: One who writes code for software; a computer scientist.
I think it's if it's your main source of income. I don't think basing it off being on a team or clan makes sense because players like SaSe and viOlet do SC2 for a living and SaSe wasn't on a team for a long time and viOlet still isn't on a team.
Where gaming is your profession, and source of income. If you win 10 bucks at a tourney you're not a pro gamer but if you win a majority of the money you spend by playing games then you are.
On January 11 2012 14:29 Ares[Effort] wrote: Someone who has passed Rookie league and then drafted by a professional team
Corrected it
What would you consider a "Rookie league"?
A gamer who uses competitive gaming as their sole source of income (streaming excluded). This does not refer to someone who games all the time and attains some level of skill; being a pro gamer means you use it as your profession, and that you actually do earn money.
I urge you to read Efforts post again. Then read my quote with the correction. If you still don't get it now, then PM me
On January 11 2012 15:02 eScaper-tsunami wrote: So you're saying that, you can do a certain profession, not be an expert but still call yourself a professional?
This is difficult since, like most things so much of it depends on whether the people around you recognize you as one or not. Do you take the definition from those at the apex or those at the lowest levels? Is your definition more inclusive or exclusive?
While you could reduce a pro-gamer to an occupation, like someone who works at McDonald's or a 9-5 job in some sprawling corporate bureacracy, that doesn't really fit. Is an artist only someone who survives off of their art or is an artist someone who is passionate and dedicated to their trade? As we see from the various levels of pro-gaming, so much of the job is about how much you decide to put into it. How much practice, sacrifice, energy, how much of yourself you invest in it. For the top level of players who make a good living off of their gaming, you could say its just money, but what about everyone else? If we include the others who don't make quite as much, it means that pro-gaming could also be defined by that self-investment and willingness to self-sacrifice in order to make it.
On January 11 2012 15:02 eScaper-tsunami wrote: So you're saying that, you can do a certain profession, not be an expert but still call yourself a professional?
edit:
On January 11 2012 14:59 dAPhREAk wrote:
On January 11 2012 14:47 eScaper-tsunami wrote: I don't think what you do as a profession qualifies you as a professional in the specific field.
i think you are mistaking the word expert and professional. you can do a certain profession, but not be an expert in the specific field.
yes. of course you can. people do it all the time.
I'm an expert on bullshitting, but I'm no professional.
Pro-gamers are people who can play games e.x Starcraft 2 for full time and make living out of it. If someone is focusing more into work than into game, even how good player he might be, I can't consider him as a professional gamer.
On January 11 2012 15:02 eScaper-tsunami wrote: So you're saying that, you can do a certain profession, not be an expert but still call yourself a professional?
edit:
On January 11 2012 14:59 dAPhREAk wrote:
On January 11 2012 14:47 eScaper-tsunami wrote: I don't think what you do as a profession qualifies you as a professional in the specific field.
i think you are mistaking the word expert and professional. you can do a certain profession, but not be an expert in the specific field.
yes. of course you can. people do it all the time.
Well, where I live... to become a professional engineer (p.eng) and to market oneself as a professional engineer, you need to apply and take an exam. You can practice as an engineer without it but marketing yourself as a professional is a giant lawsuit waiting to happen. This is true with many other professions, such as accountant, plumber (other trades included), bartenders, lawyers and the list goes on.
On January 11 2012 15:02 eScaper-tsunami wrote: So you're saying that, you can do a certain profession, not be an expert but still call yourself a professional?
edit:
On January 11 2012 14:59 dAPhREAk wrote:
On January 11 2012 14:47 eScaper-tsunami wrote: I don't think what you do as a profession qualifies you as a professional in the specific field.
i think you are mistaking the word expert and professional. you can do a certain profession, but not be an expert in the specific field.
yes. of course you can. people do it all the time.
Well, where I live... to become a professional engineer (p.eng) and to market oneself as a professional engineer, you need to apply and take an exam. You can practice as an engineer without it but marketing yourself as a professional is a giant lawsuit waiting to happen. This is true with many other professions, such as accountant, plumber (other trades included), bartenders, lawyers and the list goes on.
Thing is there is no requirement to become a progamer, if a team picks you up when your bronze and you make it your main source of income your a progamer as in you do it for a profession don't confuse being pro with actually being good at the game.
I guess the literal definition is what everyone is saying, playing games for money, as a living.
But I feel like the amateur title should be given more in place of progamer sometimes. There's lots of progamers that play like 20 games a day and then there's really hardworking serious progamers that play like 50-60 games a day. ><"
On January 11 2012 15:02 eScaper-tsunami wrote: So you're saying that, you can do a certain profession, not be an expert but still call yourself a professional?
edit:
On January 11 2012 14:59 dAPhREAk wrote:
On January 11 2012 14:47 eScaper-tsunami wrote: I don't think what you do as a profession qualifies you as a professional in the specific field.
i think you are mistaking the word expert and professional. you can do a certain profession, but not be an expert in the specific field.
yes. of course you can. people do it all the time.
Well, where I live... to become a professional engineer (p.eng) and to market oneself as a professional engineer, you need to apply and take an exam. You can practice as an engineer without it but marketing yourself as a professional is a giant lawsuit waiting to happen. This is true with many other professions, such as accountant, plumber (other trades included), bartenders, lawyers and the list goes on.
i think you are missing the point. you can be a professional (albeit a p.eng) and still not be an expert in your field. being licensed does not make you an expert, although it usually allows you to practice the profession. its all semantics anyways.
On January 11 2012 15:02 eScaper-tsunami wrote: So you're saying that, you can do a certain profession, not be an expert but still call yourself a professional?
edit (didn't want to double post):
On January 11 2012 14:59 dAPhREAk wrote:
On January 11 2012 14:47 eScaper-tsunami wrote: I don't think what you do as a profession qualifies you as a professional in the specific field.
i think you are mistaking the word expert and professional. you can do a certain profession, but not be an expert in the specific field.
yes. of course you can. people do it all the time.
Well, where I live... to become a professional engineer (p.eng) and to market oneself as a professional engineer, you need to apply and take an exam. You can practice as an engineer without it but marketing yourself as a professional is a giant lawsuit waiting to happen. This is true with many other professions, such as accountant, plumber (other trades included), bartenders, lawyers and the list goes on.
Thing is there is no requirement to become a progamer, if a team picks you up when your bronze and you make it your main source of income your a progamer as in you do it for a profession don't confuse being pro with actually being good at the game.
I'm confused by your explanation, you said there are no requirements to become a progamer yet you stated that you need a team to pick you up..... And are you a progamer if your source of income is ONLY from a team paying you? If so I guess in SC2 a lot of GSL players aren't pros by your definition.
On January 11 2012 15:02 eScaper-tsunami wrote: So you're saying that, you can do a certain profession, not be an expert but still call yourself a professional?
edit:
On January 11 2012 14:59 dAPhREAk wrote:
On January 11 2012 14:47 eScaper-tsunami wrote: I don't think what you do as a profession qualifies you as a professional in the specific field.
i think you are mistaking the word expert and professional. you can do a certain profession, but not be an expert in the specific field.
yes. of course you can. people do it all the time.
Well, where I live... to become a professional engineer (p.eng) and to market oneself as a professional engineer, you need to apply and take an exam. You can practice as an engineer without it but marketing yourself as a professional is a giant lawsuit waiting to happen. This is true with many other professions, such as accountant, plumber (other trades included), bartenders, lawyers and the list goes on.
i think you are missing the point. you can be a professional (albeit a p.eng) and still not be an expert in your field. being licensed does not make you an expert, although it usually allows you to practice the profession. its all semantics anyways.
I think you misunderstood my point.... First of all I think the word expert is only making the matter more confusing. Second, I understand things vary from one place to another, but in Canada you can practice engineering by calling yourself an engineer without a p.eng, you just can't market yourself as a professional engineer without it.
On January 11 2012 15:02 eScaper-tsunami wrote: So you're saying that, you can do a certain profession, not be an expert but still call yourself a professional?
edit:
On January 11 2012 14:59 dAPhREAk wrote:
On January 11 2012 14:47 eScaper-tsunami wrote: I don't think what you do as a profession qualifies you as a professional in the specific field.
i think you are mistaking the word expert and professional. you can do a certain profession, but not be an expert in the specific field.
yes. of course you can. people do it all the time.
Well, where I live... to become a professional engineer (p.eng) and to market oneself as a professional engineer, you need to apply and take an exam. You can practice as an engineer without it but marketing yourself as a professional is a giant lawsuit waiting to happen. This is true with many other professions, such as accountant, plumber (other trades included), bartenders, lawyers and the list goes on.
Thing is there is no requirement to become a progamer, if a team picks you up when your bronze and you make it your main source of income your a progamer as in you do it for a profession don't confuse being pro with actually being good at the game.
I'm confused by your explanation, you said there are no requirements to become a progamer yet you stated that you need a team to pick you up..... And are you a progamer if your source of income is ONLY from a team paying you? If so I guess in SC2 a lot of GSL players aren't pros by your definition.
Income is the only requirement, to be paid for what you do. Im not saying you have to be on a team, you could win enough tournaments to make a living off it or have a personal sponsor. And yeah technically if your teamless in GSL and don't make enough money for a living off it your not really a professional maybe an amateur idk. Not saying its wrong to call them a pro but in reality they aren't.
On January 11 2012 15:02 eScaper-tsunami wrote: So you're saying that, you can do a certain profession, not be an expert but still call yourself a professional?
edit:
On January 11 2012 14:59 dAPhREAk wrote:
On January 11 2012 14:47 eScaper-tsunami wrote: I don't think what you do as a profession qualifies you as a professional in the specific field.
i think you are mistaking the word expert and professional. you can do a certain profession, but not be an expert in the specific field.
yes. of course you can. people do it all the time.
Well, where I live... to become a professional engineer (p.eng) and to market oneself as a professional engineer, you need to apply and take an exam. You can practice as an engineer without it but marketing yourself as a professional is a giant lawsuit waiting to happen. This is true with many other professions, such as accountant, plumber (other trades included), bartenders, lawyers and the list goes on.
Thing is there is no requirement to become a progamer, if a team picks you up when your bronze and you make it your main source of income your a progamer as in you do it for a profession don't confuse being pro with actually being good at the game.
I'm confused by your explanation, you said there are no requirements to become a progamer yet you stated that you need a team to pick you up..... And are you a progamer if your source of income is ONLY from a team paying you? If so I guess in SC2 a lot of GSL players aren't pros by your definition.
Income is the only requirement, to be paid for what you do. Im not saying you have to be on a team, you could win enough tournaments to make a living off it or have a personal sponsor. And yeah technically if your teamless in GSL and don't make enough money for a living off it your not really a professional maybe an amateur idk. Not saying its wrong to call them a pro but in reality they aren't.
Ya I agree. The only problem with income is the threshold, exactly how much qualifies you as a pro?
edit: A lot of payment to players through team is still undisclosed information sadly
On January 11 2012 15:02 eScaper-tsunami wrote: So you're saying that, you can do a certain profession, not be an expert but still call yourself a professional?
edit:
On January 11 2012 14:59 dAPhREAk wrote:
On January 11 2012 14:47 eScaper-tsunami wrote: I don't think what you do as a profession qualifies you as a professional in the specific field.
i think you are mistaking the word expert and professional. you can do a certain profession, but not be an expert in the specific field.
yes. of course you can. people do it all the time.
Well, where I live... to become a professional engineer (p.eng) and to market oneself as a professional engineer, you need to apply and take an exam. You can practice as an engineer without it but marketing yourself as a professional is a giant lawsuit waiting to happen. This is true with many other professions, such as accountant, plumber (other trades included), bartenders, lawyers and the list goes on.
Thing is there is no requirement to become a progamer, if a team picks you up when your bronze and you make it your main source of income your a progamer as in you do it for a profession don't confuse being pro with actually being good at the game.
I'm confused by your explanation, you said there are no requirements to become a progamer yet you stated that you need a team to pick you up..... And are you a progamer if your source of income is ONLY from a team paying you? If so I guess in SC2 a lot of GSL players aren't pros by your definition.
Income is the only requirement, to be paid for what you do. Im not saying you have to be on a team, you could win enough tournaments to make a living off it or have a personal sponsor. And yeah technically if your teamless in GSL and don't make enough money for a living off it your not really a professional maybe an amateur idk. Not saying its wrong to call them a pro but in reality they aren't.
Ya I agree. The only problem with income is the threshold, exactly how much qualifies you as a pro?
edit: A lot of payment to players through team is still undisclosed information sadly
Enough to make a living of it so it probably is different depending on where you live. Not saying its carved in stone but in general that.
I think it is someone who gets paid for playing a competitive e-sport/game. I'd separate casters from progamers, but I believe that it is important to recognize ex-progamers such as Day[9], Tasteless, etc.. I suppose the grey area is for players like Destiny and Artosis who definitely play Starcraft at a high level; these two players are definitely good, however, in Starcraft 2 their popularity and income coming from their personalities and ability to teach others rather than having pure skill at the game. Nothing against these two players, I view their streams very often and happen to like both players a lot, however if you simply look at their results in Starcraft 2, really the only thing that separates them from another masters league/low GM player that enters tournaments is not results, but simply success due to personality.
On January 11 2012 11:07 IMoperator wrote: Someone that can live off of what they get paid and play full time.
This is why I think that definitions such as (quoted above) really add to the ambiguity in the difference of progamer and paid players/streamers listed above.
One would think professional gamer means gaming for a living.
If people want a special word for something else they probably have to come up with a new word for it since the meaning of professional, like most words wont change anytime soon.
On January 11 2012 10:46 phzbox wrote: Is it someone who earn money to play the game?
It's someone who is paid to play the game, outside of prize money.
In other words: you have some sort of sponsorship, team affiliations, etc, that allows you to participate in tournaments - or you are paid to participate in tournaments (GSL for example pay everyone that qualifies a little bit of money to participate, so they are pro gamers).
If you are 'just' making money by winning them in daily tournaments for example, I'd say you are not a pro gamer but a talented amateur Even if you are earning more money than a professional.
Streaming? Coaching? Doesn't count. If Husky decides to stream a lot, and makes a lot of money doing so, he is still a pro caster / streamer, not a pro gamer.
In my own opinion, a professional gamer is someone who plays a game competitively, who is paid and who acts mature (professional?) in games and outside.
Some people may retort: "So IdrA is not professional due to his behavior, right?" If you ask me, I consider IdrA as a professional player. Sometimes, he definitely crosses the line but overall, he is more an entertainer. He does not want to hurt anyone in what he says.
A pro-gamer to me is someone whose main source of income is from playing video games competitively.
I don't think lessons count towards that though (if it were your main source of income). With lessons, you're being paid to teach. To me it would be like calling an NFL coach a "Professional Football Player" when what they really are is a "Professional Football Coach".
"A professional is a person who is paid to undertake a specialised set of tasks and to complete them for a fee. The traditional professions were doctors, lawyers, clergymen, and commissioned military officers. Today, the term is applied to estate agents, surveyors , environmental scientists, forensic scientists, educators, and many more. The term is also used in sports to differentiate amateur players from those who are paid — hence "professional footballer" and "professional golfer"."
As everyone already said this one is really easy. You're a professional when you earn enough money with any said activity to provide for yourself. You're an amateur or a "semi-pro" when you can compete with professionals in their field but earn a living through other means.
This thread again hey. I'd say it's someone who plays games for a living. As a job. The programers of old did not get paid, so getting paid should not be criteria.
A pro gamer is someone that has a salary playing a video game and is under a contract. During the BW days and now, a pro gamer would be an individual with a pro gamer license by KeSPA.
On January 11 2012 14:35 DYEAlabaster wrote: pro-gaming, in my opinion, is someone who makes a living off of playing the game. Ie, this is their entire job.
I agree with this, however I feel that the income source could lead to further classifications. To restate the opinion, anyone who needs to supplement their "gaming" income is an amateur gamer. However, what qualifies as "gaming income"? Team salary? - of course, you're getting paid to play. Tournament winnings? sure, you're getting paid to play win - but you can't win without playing. Streaming? - probably... again getting paid because you are a player (and usually streaming games - ladder or tournaments) Coaching? - no, coaching =/= playing. Sponsors? - maybe, but like coaching it doesn't actually require playing.
I'm not saying pro gamers can't participate in any of the no/maybe activities to get extra income, I'm just of the opinion that to be pro they income before the extra activities should be enough to make a living (room for more debate as to what that is).
"Professional sports, as opposed to amateur sports, are sports in which athletes receive payment for their performance. Professional athleticism has come to the fore through a combination of developments. Mass media and increased leisure have brought larger audiences, so that sports organizations or teams can command large incomes.[1] As a result, more sportspeople can afford to make athleticism their primary career, devoting the training time necessary to increase skills, physical condition, and experience to modern levels of achievement.[1] This proficiency has also helped boost the popularity of sports.[1] Most sports played professionally also have amateur players far outnumbering the professionals. Professional athleticism is seen by some as a contradiction of the central ethos of sport, competition performed for its own sake and pure enjoyment, rather than as a means of earning a living.[1] Consequently, many organisations and commentators have resisted the growth of professional athleticism, saying that it was so incredible that he has impeded the development of sport. For example, rugby union was for many years a part-time sport engaged in by amateurs, and English cricket has allegedly suffered in quality because of a "non-professional" approach.[1]" From Wikipedia
On January 11 2012 18:19 zoLo wrote: A pro gamer is someone that has a salary playing a video game and is under a contract. During the BW days and now, a pro gamer would be an individual with a pro gamer license by KeSPA.
I said this on the first page and this answer is the only one that objectively defines what is a "progamer." To the person who said that I was trolling, it seems that he was trolling himself xd
EPT
