• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:01
CEST 18:01
KST 01:01
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Fresh Flow6[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy21ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30
Community News
MaNa leaves Team Liquid15$5,000 WardiTV TLMC tournament - Presented by Monster Energy5GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding7Weekly Cups (May 30-Apr 5): herO, Clem, SHIN win0[BSL22] RO32 Group Stage5
StarCraft 2
General
MaNa leaves Team Liquid Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy Quebec Clan still alive ? BGE Stara Zagora 2026 cancelled
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $5,000 WardiTV TLMC tournament - Presented by Monster Energy RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 521 Memorable Boss The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 520 Moving Fees Mutation # 519 Inner Power
Brood War
General
[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Fresh Flow Leta's ASL Ro24 Review The Korean Terminology Thread ASL21 General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro16 Group A Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro24 Group F
Strategy
Any training maps people recommend? Fighting Spirit mining rates Muta micro map competition What's the deal with APM & what's its true value
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The China Politics Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT] Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
lurker extra damage testi…
StaticNine
How Streamers Inspire Gamers…
TrAiDoS
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1709 users

The Philosophy of Design: Part 2 - Unit Design - Page 15

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 13 14 15 16 17 33 Next All
infinity2k9
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom2397 Posts
January 12 2012 15:34 GMT
#281
Well i guess it's heavily opinion here.. but not meaning just a single unit, but the bio play doesn't seem very dynamic to me and the fact you can see it everywhere, i feel spread out or made more micro heavy in some way it could be improved. Like maybe even another unit to be more synergic with the marine.. just a thought; something that would make constant correct positioning and movement even more important. Or an ability where they could form lines with shields and block units to create on-the-fly walls and soaking of damage. Right now you have stimming which is not really a skill at all and stutter stepping which is only a kiting variation. In BW they felt vulnerable and now them being a solid all around unit seen in every matchup and with the blobbing is just personally unappealing currently.

I'm not too familar with this second example, saw a few games i think; but it feels more like this is only the composition because you have to do it to gain the eco advantage no? Like there's little choice in the matter lings is the only option to play to that style. Correct me if i'm wrong there. Zerg's options surely could be better. There seems to be a gap in strategies between total all-in or an eco style. Like no in between that's how it felt.

I think more peole object to the balling creating quick simple battles than single units; they could all be interesting if that changed. Units like the roach/marine seem deliberately designed just for this style so the criticisms overlap a bit. Of course you could think it's all interesting right now but i'm sure everyone agrees there's ways to improve that or it really will be stale in the long run.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
January 12 2012 15:50 GMT
#282
On January 13 2012 00:34 infinity2k9 wrote:
Well i guess it's heavily opinion here.. but not meaning just a single unit, but the bio play doesn't seem very dynamic to me and the fact you can see it everywhere, i feel spread out or made more micro heavy in some way it could be improved. Like maybe even another unit to be more synergic with the marine.. just a thought; something that would make constant correct positioning and movement even more important. Or an ability where they could form lines with shields and block units to create on-the-fly walls and soaking of damage. Right now you have stimming which is not really a skill at all and stutter stepping which is only a kiting variation. In BW they felt vulnerable and now them being a solid all around unit seen in every matchup and with the blobbing is just personally unappealing currently.

I'm not too familar with this second example, saw a few games i think; but it feels more like this is only the composition because you have to do it to gain the eco advantage no? Like there's little choice in the matter lings is the only option to play to that style. Correct me if i'm wrong there. Zerg's options surely could be better. There seems to be a gap in strategies between total all-in or an eco style. Like no in between that's how it felt.

I think more peole object to the balling creating quick simple battles than single units; they could all be interesting if that changed. Units like the roach/marine seem deliberately designed just for this style so the criticisms overlap a bit. Of course you could think it's all interesting right now but i'm sure everyone agrees there's ways to improve that or it really will be stale in the long run.


well, that sounds a lot different to what I was responding to, because I can pretty much agree with all of that. A little more positional play in bio would be more interesting. (like it is forced in TvZ due to banelings)
a little more variety in zerg compositions would be interesting (mostly thinking about the range tech path being underpowered)
A little less warpgate focused play from protoss, with more dynamic would be interesting.
But that's not to say that the current styles are bad. I just think there should be more (equal strenght/different orientation) options in the game.

And yeah, stephano style (just like bio TvT or even bio TvP) relies a lot on taking bases and therefore the resulting compositon is low tier. But imo that again shows that low tier is only playable if you have it in a solid eco advantage gameplan, which again is a counterargument to "marines (or whatever unit you want to put in that spot) are too good".
Zax19
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Czech Republic1136 Posts
January 12 2012 15:50 GMT
#283
On January 13 2012 00:27 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2012 00:24 Zax19 wrote:
I really liked the comparison to CnC, they seem to think about "fun" first and only later on about the repercussions on competitive gameplay. Supposing we're done with the question "can SC2 be improved?" the main issue for me is the vicious circle which comes from:


CnC always had a small competetive scene and balance wasn't too far off as far as I know from playing RA3 myself for some time.

I can't comment on older CnC but CnC3 was a game I played for "fun", not for balance, and CnC4 was an utter disgrace of unit design, IMHO.
Really Blizz, really? - Darnell
YaShock
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Hungary119 Posts
January 12 2012 16:00 GMT
#284
On January 11 2012 05:17 Big G wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 11 2012 04:50 Scufo wrote:
Tanks make me cry in SC2. Zealots that can take 5 tank shots to the face, Immortals and Marauders. Speedlings on creep...my god. Tanks are the heart and soul of Terran and seeing them take a back seat to Marines and Marauders is depressing.

Ya this is a critical point. For some reason Blizzard decided to balance the game around MM instead of the old tank which is so much more interesting and race-defining.



Because MM requires much less micro, so casuals can play. In BW a random noname player couldn't beat some famous korean progamer (for example Flash, Jaedong etc.) but in SC2 if you learn some strong timing or allin, you can actually beat those guys. It is so much more casual game than BW.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
January 12 2012 16:05 GMT
#285
On January 13 2012 00:50 Zax19 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2012 00:27 Big J wrote:
On January 13 2012 00:24 Zax19 wrote:
I really liked the comparison to CnC, they seem to think about "fun" first and only later on about the repercussions on competitive gameplay. Supposing we're done with the question "can SC2 be improved?" the main issue for me is the vicious circle which comes from:


CnC always had a small competetive scene and balance wasn't too far off as far as I know from playing RA3 myself for some time.

I can't comment on older CnC but CnC3 was a game I played for "fun", not for balance, and CnC4 was an utter disgrace of unit design, IMHO.


well, I played a lot of CnCs, mostly for fun. I know that CnC3 had a lot of problems early with GDI tankrushes being overpowered, but from what I have heard of a SC2-colleague who played it for a longer time, it became very solid after that phase with a lot of harass strategies and stuff like that.
And again from my own experience in CnC: RA3, it is a very fast, very micro- and rushfocused game with a lot of strategies (at least if you play sowjets or allies) and a very balanced lategame, if you don't let things get out of hand before that (which is also true for BW and SC2). Maybe allies are a bit too strong if you can micro well, but at the skill level it has been played it was still acceptable imo.
can't talk for CnC4. Never played it, but from what I have seen and heard, it is obviously a different category of RTS then the other CnCs or SC2.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
January 12 2012 16:06 GMT
#286
On January 13 2012 01:00 YaShock wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 11 2012 05:17 Big G wrote:
On January 11 2012 04:50 Scufo wrote:
Tanks make me cry in SC2. Zealots that can take 5 tank shots to the face, Immortals and Marauders. Speedlings on creep...my god. Tanks are the heart and soul of Terran and seeing them take a back seat to Marines and Marauders is depressing.

Ya this is a critical point. For some reason Blizzard decided to balance the game around MM instead of the old tank which is so much more interesting and race-defining.



Because MM requires much less micro, so casuals can play. In BW a random noname player couldn't beat some famous korean progamer (for example Flash, Jaedong etc.) but in SC2 if you learn some strong timing or allin, you can actually beat those guys. It is so much more casual game than BW.


everyone could beat Flash one year after the game was out. Bring the same argument when SC2 is as old as BW, so let's say 10years from now?!
K9GM3
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands116 Posts
January 12 2012 16:06 GMT
#287
On January 13 2012 01:00 YaShock wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 11 2012 05:17 Big G wrote:
On January 11 2012 04:50 Scufo wrote:
Tanks make me cry in SC2. Zealots that can take 5 tank shots to the face, Immortals and Marauders. Speedlings on creep...my god. Tanks are the heart and soul of Terran and seeing them take a back seat to Marines and Marauders is depressing.

Ya this is a critical point. For some reason Blizzard decided to balance the game around MM instead of the old tank which is so much more interesting and race-defining.



Because MM requires much less micro, so casuals can play. In BW a random noname player couldn't beat some famous korean progamer (for example Flash, Jaedong etc.) but in SC2 if you learn some strong timing or allin, you can actually beat those guys. It is so much more casual game than BW.

That's because in BW, everything is set in stone. Your Korean progamers know the answer to everything, because everything has already been tried and done. Not to mention that for every match-up, there's actually an optimal build and strategy.

In SC2, on the other hand, people don't know everything yet. There are multiple playstyles, some of which haven't even been discovered yet. There are strong timing attacks for which there's no definite answer yet. And with time, people will be able to deflect them, provided the attack isn't executed better than the defence. Which, in my opinion, is a good thing.
No, I don't want your number.
Laserist
Profile Joined September 2011
Turkey4269 Posts
January 12 2012 16:09 GMT
#288
Nice compilation of previous threads and good comments.
I agree most of your statements, except about micro-reducing. I thought it gives a different option to players to contro lthe game.
“Are you with the Cartel? Because you’re definitely an Angel.”
Tomba
Profile Joined January 2012
Norway106 Posts
January 12 2012 16:12 GMT
#289
Chess: a minute to learn a lifetime to master.
BW: same deal.
sc2: not convinced yet.

So many good points.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10873 Posts
January 12 2012 16:12 GMT
#290
This stuff was true in Beta and still is.


/sad
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-12 16:27:40
January 12 2012 16:24 GMT
#291
On January 12 2012 23:49 gn0m wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2012 22:20 Grumbels wrote:
I keep thinking more and more the biggest problem with so many of these issues is Blizzard wanting to have the game playable for bronze/silver level players. There is, as mentioned, an industry trend towards more automation so that the game actually becomes pure strategy, no execution involved, so even if you can barely play the game, you can still have some semblance of the experience the game is meant to provide. In Starcraft's case it is about alien races on harsh worlds going to battle - I think the fear is a new player is going to start, say, Brood War multiplayer and simply become overwhelmed by the high execution requirements and become frustrated at his inability to produce said armies.

That's one incarnation of an automation argument: the fear of alienating casual players. I have two examples to sort of illustrate some of the ideas in here.

[.....]

I think there is a lot of truth in your post, Blizzard is actively thinking about low level casuals when designing SC2, both in terms of playability (easiness) and balance. This is a major problem in my opinion, even though I can see the reasons for doing so.

I don’t think that it is a problem if some players are horrendous relative to professional players; they can still have a great time with a game, even though their games play out in a very different way compared to professional games. There is also one thing to keep in mind; the game is equally hard for all players. That means that even though BW is ridiculously hard, or maybe because BW is so hard, there will be tons of equally bad players.

On the other hand of the spectrum, the “streamlined design” of SC2 creates major constraints for the extremely talented gamers. With the approach that more stuff happens automatically, there are less ways for a better player to utilize his APM to dramatically affect the outcome of a battle. Blizzard needs to find a balance where there is a way to perform basic tasks without extensive use of micro/skill in order to appeal to casuals, and at the same time give professional players enough room to fully get rewarded for their skill. At this stage, I think the balance is skewed towards making SC2 accessible to everyone which hinders the complexity and ultimately the lifespan of the game.

In conclusion, I think that the professional scene could appreciate a boost in micro ability while it wouldn’t affect casual players that much as they still would face players of a similar skill level.

I also think that Starcraft 2 is sort of built around a higher latency than we might think. They obviously decided right at the start to not allow LAN and they must have thought they needed to not make the game too frustrating to play for people with bad connections/who are far away from the server. I think some of the lack of 'twitchiness' can be explained this way: it's actually a design goal by Blizzard. It's just a guess though.

Some minor evidence for this: right at the start of beta the standard battle.net in-built delay was an unplayable 200+ms and they only later changed it to the current 100+ ms. Another one: you can't properly transform vikings to avoid enemy missiles even if with minor tweaking they could have added that as micro skill. (not too hard to implement in the editor I think) They probably did not because it would be too unfair for people with bad latency.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Azera
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3800 Posts
January 12 2012 16:26 GMT
#292
Very nice to read!
Check out some great music made by TLers - http://bit.ly/QXYhdb , by intrigue. http://bit.ly/RTjpOR , by ohsea.toc.
SyrZulu
Profile Joined August 2011
80 Posts
January 12 2012 16:32 GMT
#293
well written man
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
January 12 2012 16:35 GMT
#294
On January 13 2012 01:24 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2012 23:49 gn0m wrote:
On January 12 2012 22:20 Grumbels wrote:
I keep thinking more and more the biggest problem with so many of these issues is Blizzard wanting to have the game playable for bronze/silver level players. There is, as mentioned, an industry trend towards more automation so that the game actually becomes pure strategy, no execution involved, so even if you can barely play the game, you can still have some semblance of the experience the game is meant to provide. In Starcraft's case it is about alien races on harsh worlds going to battle - I think the fear is a new player is going to start, say, Brood War multiplayer and simply become overwhelmed by the high execution requirements and become frustrated at his inability to produce said armies.

That's one incarnation of an automation argument: the fear of alienating casual players. I have two examples to sort of illustrate some of the ideas in here.

[.....]

I think there is a lot of truth in your post, Blizzard is actively thinking about low level casuals when designing SC2, both in terms of playability (easiness) and balance. This is a major problem in my opinion, even though I can see the reasons for doing so.

I don’t think that it is a problem if some players are horrendous relative to professional players; they can still have a great time with a game, even though their games play out in a very different way compared to professional games. There is also one thing to keep in mind; the game is equally hard for all players. That means that even though BW is ridiculously hard, or maybe because BW is so hard, there will be tons of equally bad players.

On the other hand of the spectrum, the “streamlined design” of SC2 creates major constraints for the extremely talented gamers. With the approach that more stuff happens automatically, there are less ways for a better player to utilize his APM to dramatically affect the outcome of a battle. Blizzard needs to find a balance where there is a way to perform basic tasks without extensive use of micro/skill in order to appeal to casuals, and at the same time give professional players enough room to fully get rewarded for their skill. At this stage, I think the balance is skewed towards making SC2 accessible to everyone which hinders the complexity and ultimately the lifespan of the game.

In conclusion, I think that the professional scene could appreciate a boost in micro ability while it wouldn’t affect casual players that much as they still would face players of a similar skill level.

I also think that Starcraft 2 is sort of built around a higher latency than we might think. They obviously decided right at the start to not allow LAN and they must have thought they needed to not make the game too frustrating to play for people with bad connections/who are far away from the server. I think some of the lack of 'twitchiness' can be explained this way: it's actually a design goal by Blizzard. It's just a guess though.

Some minor evidence for this: right at the start of beta the standard battle.net in-built delay was an unplayable 200+ms and they only later changed it to the current 100+ ms. Another one: you can't properly transform vikings to avoid enemy missiles even if with minor tweaking they could have added that as micro skill. (not too hard to implement in the editor I think) They probably did not because it would be too unfair for people with bad latency.


viking argument doesnt hold. you can do it with drop micro (avoid missiles). They would have to remove this kind of micro out of the same reason (latency) then.
EternaLLegacy
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States410 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-12 16:40:12
January 12 2012 16:39 GMT
#295
On January 12 2012 19:49 Garmer wrote:
there is also a Minerals/gas ratio problem, that no one seems to have noticed, marine are overpowered because of this, u have much more minerals than gas so u build more the units that require only minerals, obviously
I wonder how it would be SC2 with one only gas, like broodwar..


Actually, this is a fair point. SC2 seems to have a very high reliance on gas units, and the mineral sink units are not universally appropriate, except marines. I'll hit on resource interplay a bit in my next part on macro.

Oh, I'm not saying the marine is overpowered, because that's a balance argument and we don't do that here.
Statists gonna State.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10873 Posts
January 12 2012 16:42 GMT
#296
Ahm, yes you are saying that here... Just not directly.

Your also saying that Colossus are imbalanced... Just not directly (actually, your saying this pretty directly)...
infinity2k9
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom2397 Posts
January 12 2012 16:44 GMT
#297
On January 13 2012 01:06 K9GM3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2012 01:00 YaShock wrote:
On January 11 2012 05:17 Big G wrote:
On January 11 2012 04:50 Scufo wrote:
Tanks make me cry in SC2. Zealots that can take 5 tank shots to the face, Immortals and Marauders. Speedlings on creep...my god. Tanks are the heart and soul of Terran and seeing them take a back seat to Marines and Marauders is depressing.

Ya this is a critical point. For some reason Blizzard decided to balance the game around MM instead of the old tank which is so much more interesting and race-defining.



Because MM requires much less micro, so casuals can play. In BW a random noname player couldn't beat some famous korean progamer (for example Flash, Jaedong etc.) but in SC2 if you learn some strong timing or allin, you can actually beat those guys. It is so much more casual game than BW.

That's because in BW, everything is set in stone. Your Korean progamers know the answer to everything, because everything has already been tried and done. Not to mention that for every match-up, there's actually an optimal build and strategy.

In SC2, on the other hand, people don't know everything yet. There are multiple playstyles, some of which haven't even been discovered yet. There are strong timing attacks for which there's no definite answer yet. And with time, people will be able to deflect them, provided the attack isn't executed better than the defence. Which, in my opinion, is a good thing.


Firstly you are just assuming things about SC2's future.. but it's irrelevent because you are just wrong. The game is more volatile, pro's directly say it. The skill gaps are all closer people like Gatored can somehow take series let alone games, from GSL Koreans. If you look at the foreign TLPD in particular there's almost no consistency. In BW the better player wins a BO3 nearly all of the time, and single games are not disregarded like in SC2 when it's more heavily often decided by one advantage snowballing to a win. Plus less defenders advantage, less potential for comebacks etc.

BW also still gets new ideas used. Even in the OSL finals we saw new ideas. Besides Jaedong or Flash would just smash you regardless of strategies or build order, they don't need to answer you strategically because they would outmicro you completely with normal early aggression. The gap is massive in mechanics from the S-class to the rest of the A-teamers let alone to to non-pro's who they would never lose to. People don't just fluke wins after one engagement, it's not volatile at all in comparison.
iky43210
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2099 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-12 16:52:55
January 12 2012 16:48 GMT
#298
On January 13 2012 01:44 infinity2k9 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2012 01:06 K9GM3 wrote:
On January 13 2012 01:00 YaShock wrote:
On January 11 2012 05:17 Big G wrote:
On January 11 2012 04:50 Scufo wrote:
Tanks make me cry in SC2. Zealots that can take 5 tank shots to the face, Immortals and Marauders. Speedlings on creep...my god. Tanks are the heart and soul of Terran and seeing them take a back seat to Marines and Marauders is depressing.

Ya this is a critical point. For some reason Blizzard decided to balance the game around MM instead of the old tank which is so much more interesting and race-defining.



Because MM requires much less micro, so casuals can play. In BW a random noname player couldn't beat some famous korean progamer (for example Flash, Jaedong etc.) but in SC2 if you learn some strong timing or allin, you can actually beat those guys. It is so much more casual game than BW.

That's because in BW, everything is set in stone. Your Korean progamers know the answer to everything, because everything has already been tried and done. Not to mention that for every match-up, there's actually an optimal build and strategy.

In SC2, on the other hand, people don't know everything yet. There are multiple playstyles, some of which haven't even been discovered yet. There are strong timing attacks for which there's no definite answer yet. And with time, people will be able to deflect them, provided the attack isn't executed better than the defence. Which, in my opinion, is a good thing.


Firstly you are just assuming things about SC2's future.. but it's irrelevent because you are just wrong. The game is more volatile, pro's directly say it. The skill gaps are all closer people like Gatored can somehow take series let alone games, from GSL Koreans. If you look at the foreign TLPD in particular there's almost no consistency. In BW the better player wins a BO3 nearly all of the time, and single games are not disregarded like in SC2 when it's more heavily often decided by one advantage snowballing to a win. Plus less defenders advantage, less potential for comebacks etc.

BW also still gets new ideas used. Even in the OSL finals we saw new ideas. Besides Jaedong or Flash would just smash you regardless of strategies or build order, they don't need to answer you strategically because they would outmicro you completely with normal early aggression. The gap is massive in mechanics from the S-class to the rest of the A-teamers let alone to to non-pro's who they would never lose to. People don't just fluke wins after one engagement, it's not volatile at all in comparison.


game isn't as volatile, maybe months ago, or else people wouldn't have such consistent results like MVP/nestea and foreigners in GSL wouldn't keep coming home with 0-10 scores.

Nerchios wouldn't be winning almost every online tournament he ever attended

Even Flash doesn't win everything, and those below him often drop games as well to lesser known players

Naniwa have something like 1-11 in GSL doesn't he? idra is 1-4 and sen is 0-4. You'd think if it is truly volatile they'd have win something by now, since they are the best foreigners have to present
EternaLLegacy
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States410 Posts
January 12 2012 16:58 GMT
#299
+ Show Spoiler +
On January 12 2012 22:20 Grumbels wrote:
I keep thinking more and more the biggest problem with so many of these issues is Blizzard wanting to have the game playable for bronze/silver level players. There is, as mentioned, an industry trend towards more automation so that the game actually becomes pure strategy, no execution involved, so even if you can barely play the game, you can still have some semblance of the experience the game is meant to provide. In Starcraft's case it is about alien races on harsh worlds going to battle - I think the fear is a new player is going to start, say, Brood War multiplayer and simply become overwhelmed by the high execution requirements and become frustrated at his inability to produce said armies.

That's one incarnation of an automation argument: the fear of alienating casual players. I have two examples to sort of illustrate some of the ideas in here.

I used to play Warcraft 3 a lot and I was able to convince one of my brothers to also play the game. He actually likes strategy games a lot and often plays Risk and Rome: Total War and such. He did not play on as high a level as I did, playing mostly team games, where he likes getting ultimate unit compositions. I don't think I could have gotten him to play Brood War the same way though. Maybe some big money maps, if that, because Brood War is so much harder than Warcraft 3. My youngest brother tried Warcraft 3 melee gameplay like a couple of times, but he was terrible at it and just stuck to playing DotA. For him even WC3 was too mechanically demanding compared to just the one hero.

My second example is that I'm currently playing through the Warcraft 2 campaigns and if you think Brood War was mechanically demanding, try that game. No control groups, awkward hotkeys, no queuing, you can only select 9 units maximum. If you play it at the highest speed and actually bother with expanding, you'll be so busy creating units you will hardly have time to even do scouting or set up attacks. You pretty much need to sacrifice efficient macro, just build way too many barracks, and focus on purely army movement in such cases.
I will say that playing this is a little bit tiring, but I actually hardly have any problems with it, even if it's more demanding than Starcraft 2. I think the reason is because I only play the campaigns and I'm not punished for lack of speed: it just makes the missions harder, but I can also always play on slower game speeds if I want to or use cheat codes.

Personally, I think that you have to know your audience, and some people are simply not good at multitasking and/or strategic thought. To dilute something too much for the casuals will eventually alienate actual RTS players, who are the people you want to attract. At the same time, not everyone has the ability to acquire mechanical skill and it's a good thing to have a playable game for both casuals and hardcore players. Maybe at TL the focus is purely on the hardcore aspect of it, but you will eventually lose an audience of potential RTS gamers that are just too overwhelmed by the game's difficulty.

I honestly think it's a big missed opportunity that Blizzard didn't create more of a casual multiplayer experience. As I said earlier, I don't think requiring mechanical skill is too overwhelming (maybe) if you are simply not punished for the lack of it. Ladder play does exist, and it's pretty nice, but it's still a game mode focused on competitive play, where you will be punished. It's not about fun. I think some people approach RTS games with a certain idea in their head about how they like to play the game and they are mostly concerned about recreating that idea, not about "playing to win".

So just an example of what an implementation of this might look like: instead of the silly practice ladder, just divide the ladder into two modes: casual, competitive. Casual is focused on having a slightly slower game speed, lots of available scouting information such as plentiful xel`naga towers, safety against rushes, lots of resources. I think if Blizzard wants to, they could also add autocast options for mules, inject larva, building workers. Add a notification to the warpgate icon for protoss that shows when all your warpgates are off cooldown etc. So keep the game mostly the same (I think having actually different units can be confusing), but change the maps and add some beneficial UI features. All these features would disappear from the competitive ladder, though.

I hope what this accomplishes is to separate competitive play and 'fun' play in a meaningful way that does not prevent crossover. The units are the same, the mechanics are also mostly the same, it's just that minerals are sparser, attacks are easier and there's overwhelmingly more mechanical stuff to do. I think that if the game was set up this way you could attract a casual audience that you could sort of 'nurture' and have transition off into watching or playing competitive e-sports - or just stick to casual modes, of course. In my first example, I think my brother that plays DotA would still not go for Starcraft 2 in this incarnation, but my other brother certainly would, so that'll be nice I think.
Obviously you can accomplish all of this in the map editor, but it's not as accessible and frankly, the results won't have the quality of when an industry-leading game development company would do the same thing.



A lot of this fear of alienating casuals is absolutely silly. If you played Broodwar ever, you'd know that 90% of the players played BGH and Fastest, a lot with no rush 15 or similar. Hell, I did that as a kid and had a ton of fun with my 20 APM. If you make the game flexible, people will make it work for them. Blizzard seems to have this mindset that everyone must play the same game, and they have to tell you how you're going to play it.

I have a huge problem with the custom game system right now because it basically ensures that the casual scene BW had will never occur. Why they felt a need to ruin a system that worked for 2 world-class games is beyond me.
Statists gonna State.
bgx
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland6595 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-12 17:03:44
January 12 2012 17:02 GMT
#300
On January 13 2012 00:34 infinity2k9 wrote:
Well i guess it's heavily opinion here.. but not meaning just a single unit, but the bio play doesn't seem very dynamic to me and the fact you can see it everywhere, i feel spread out or made more micro heavy in some way it could be improved. Like maybe even another unit to be more synergic with the marine.. just a thought; something that would make constant correct positioning and movement even more important. Or an ability where they could form lines with shields and block units to create on-the-fly walls and soaking of damage. Right now you have stimming which is not really a skill at all and stutter stepping which is only a kiting variation. In BW they felt vulnerable and now them being a solid all around unit seen in every matchup and with the blobbing is just personally unappealing currently.

I'm not too familar with this second example, saw a few games i think; but it feels more like this is only the composition because you have to do it to gain the eco advantage no? Like there's little choice in the matter lings is the only option to play to that style. Correct me if i'm wrong there. Zerg's options surely could be better. There seems to be a gap in strategies between total all-in or an eco style. Like no in between that's how it felt.

I think more peole object to the balling creating quick simple battles than single units; they could all be interesting if that changed. Units like the roach/marine seem deliberately designed just for this style so the criticisms overlap a bit. Of course you could think it's all interesting right now but i'm sure everyone agrees there's ways to improve that or it really will be stale in the long run.

zerg definetely lacks "gray area"(like im not going for allin neither for mass mass drone), no lurkers/dark swarm , or a general sense of threat from these units and/or muta timing makes them in most cases submissive to T/P strategies, the only MUST REACT situations to protoss/terran are zerg all ins or heavy droning. Assuming both players go for standard macro play.

. There is no muta timing in a sense of bw one. There are quite weak detection triggers for zerg also (creep sometimes
/depends, borrow banelings), and often they can be prevented without detection. Borrowed banelings work like stop lurkers but dont work like lurkers so they cannot zone. I feel like there is big lack of defensive mechanisms (high ground/swarm) that you can work around with as zerg to buy time.
Stork[gm]
Prev 1 13 14 15 16 17 33 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Monday Night Weeklies
16:00
#47
RotterdaM303
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Hui .314
RotterdaM 303
LamboSC2 285
ProTech127
TKL 68
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 8512
Calm 6201
Bisu 3888
Horang2 2278
Jaedong 1555
Britney 1020
Mini 844
EffOrt 657
BeSt 562
Stork 400
[ Show more ]
Larva 388
firebathero 247
actioN 203
Soulkey 195
Rush 173
ggaemo 161
Hyun 140
Zeus 113
Pusan 75
Mind 63
Sea.KH 52
[sc1f]eonzerg 48
Barracks 46
ToSsGirL 30
Rock 27
zelot 27
Movie 22
Terrorterran 18
GoRush 14
Bale 11
Dewaltoss 11
IntoTheRainbow 9
Sexy 9
Dota 2
qojqva2402
syndereN418
420jenkins261
BananaSlamJamma54
League of Legends
Reynor58
Counter-Strike
fl0m5642
olofmeister3332
pashabiceps941
Other Games
B2W.Neo1112
hiko953
FrodaN908
XBOCT341
crisheroes242
KnowMe113
ArmadaUGS91
QueenE90
Mew2King35
Trikslyr33
Organizations
Other Games
WardiTV438
Counter-Strike
PGL212
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 17
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Shameless 57
• poizon28 16
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Noizen40
League of Legends
• Nemesis1755
• Jankos1291
• TFBlade989
Other Games
• Shiphtur147
Upcoming Events
OSC
7h 59m
Afreeca Starleague
17h 59m
Snow vs PianO
hero vs Rain
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
17h 59m
GSL
19h 59m
PiGosaur Cup
1d 7h
CranKy Ducklings
1d 16h
Kung Fu Cup
1d 19h
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
2 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
Escore
3 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
3 days
Korean StarCraft League
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
4 days
IPSL
4 days
WolFix vs nOmaD
dxtr13 vs Razz
BSL
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
5 days
Ladder Legends
5 days
BSL
6 days
IPSL
6 days
JDConan vs TBD
Aegong vs rasowy
Replay Cast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
Bisu vs Ample
Jaedong vs Flash
Monday Night Weeklies
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S2: W2
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W3
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
RSL Revival: Season 5
WardiTV TLMC #16
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.