On December 15 2011 07:42 ACrow wrote: I could agree with Gom's punishment of revoking Naniwa's Code S spot for immature behavior... ...if it wasn't for the MLG exchange program. The way the wording of the program is - as far as it's public - GSL broke their obligations to MLG. This is very unprofessional by Gom and should be cleared up. If I were in Sundance's shoes, I'd be pissed; part of the appeal of his circuit is that it acts (or at least acted for 2011 events, which includes Providence) as qualifier for the most respected league. This damages MLG's reputation quite a bit if this is not cleared up! This whole thing makes me sad, I love the GSL, but something really seems fishy here
On December 15 2011 07:13 staavros wrote: At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
MLG Providence was a 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition.
Pro Circuit Live Competitions grant Code S status. NOT invites to any particular tournament, be it Blizzard cup or anything else.
I expect either GOM or MLG, preferrably the latter, to explain to me and many others of the same opinion what of the above is wrong. For me that concludes the discussion about GOM simply deciding to NOT OFFER naniwa code S, versus TAKING IT AWAY from him.
On a side note, just an observation: Naniwa's code S status was announced by virtually EVERY party involved in starcraft 2 those previous weeks. Shouldn't GOM clarify that this is not true?
I am sorry, but no matter how much I try to rationalize it driven by my love for starcraft, it still seems absolutely clear that the rules changed overnight. I will still, with great hope, anticipate a statement that sets things straight.
Thank you! This proves that GomTV is directly lying. Now they owe us an apology, and they owe MLG an apology.
However, it doesn't mean that the punishment is inappropriate. GomTV, just stick with your judgements, if they are Just they will stand.
Don't make up fake excuses and deny punishing a player. Now we can't trust you, GomTV. You are a business, not a cause. There are plenty of opposition tournaments that participate in the business of competitive eSports.
Your own judgement against NaNiWa is that he acted unprofessionally, and is not trustworthy to give competition to his opponents, nor quality entertainment to your viewers. Your own judgement is turned back upon you. It is not professional business practice to lie to your customers. You are no longer trustworthy.
If it is the cause of eSports that we are worried about, then we should support the trustworthy businesses. I certainly am not giving my credit card information to a company that blatantly lies.
GomTV isn't lying, partnership changed, read the OP. Naniwa wasn't punished, he just wasn't chose for the spot, read the OP. You're welcome.
You cant change partnership AFTER the event? that like changing prize money for the event AFTER someone has won the money LOL.
Nope, they just didn't announce it yet. You should REALLY read the OP.
At MLG Columbus, the Top 3 non-Korean finishers will each be placed into GSL Code A. At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
What's up?
Even if that was true Gom is entitled to terminate the current contractual relationship with naniwa
Contracts are not as simple as this - don't attempt to make a statement without backing it up with legalese. I'll give you a little example:
Contracts in Canada can be brought to an end in the following four ways (to simplify it): 1) Performance; 2) Mutual Agreement; 3) Frustration; 4) Breach. Performance relates to completion of the obligations under the contract. Mutual agreement is evident in itself, and frustration is when the parties cannot carry out the terms of the agreements because events beyond their control prevent them from doing so.
interesting but canadian law is not applicable due to conflict of law rules
canadian courts have no jurisdiction over this case only korean courts do
On December 15 2011 07:28 NeO)DarK wrote:
The last, breach, is more relevant in this situation - it's a failure by a party to perform an obligation agreed to in the contract.
Progaming would likely fall under labor laws and that's not my area of expertise. So, the question is if an agreement was made between Naniwa and GOM and if it was an express contract or implied contract. I'm unaware if if there were verbal or written terms and conditions, so I'd assume this is an implied contract where parties indicate consensus through conduct.
I'm not saying any of this is enforceable because contracts aren't my expertise and South Korea certainly has a different legal system than Canada. I'd honestly be more concerned with Chae Jung Won's (he is not my superior, he will not be referred to as "mr") comments - it seems like Naniwa was given code S and he admitted that in his statement.
Anyways, I think this is an overreaction on GOM's part. This community has blown things out of proportion and instead of discussing the event intelligently, the trolls prevailed (as they always have). In my view: why waste a special strategy on a meaningless game? I would have walked out too for wasting my time - GOM is just mad about the views the match was going to attract.
Here come the flames...
I dont think its labour law as naniwa is no employee of gom but i believe the type of contract is not that important as long as we can clearly say that in fact it is a (implied or written) mutual agreement that naniwa will receive money if he places on certain spots and gom will receive games played by naniwa.
and as long as such contract is there the provisions i posted will apply. of course they wont apply if expressly excluded which does not seem to be the case.
On December 15 2011 07:13 staavros wrote: At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
MLG Providence was a 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition.
Pro Circuit Live Competitions grant Code S status. NOT invites to any particular tournament, be it Blizzard cup or anything else.
I expect either GOM or MLG, preferrably the latter, to explain to me and many others of the same opinion what of the above is wrong. For me that concludes the discussion about GOM simply deciding to NOT OFFER naniwa code S, versus TAKING IT AWAY from him.
On a side note, just an observation: Naniwa's code S status was announced by virtually EVERY party involved in starcraft 2 those previous weeks. Shouldn't GOM clarify that this is not true?
I am sorry, but no matter how much I try to rationalize it driven by my love for starcraft, it still seems absolutely clear that the rules changed overnight. I will still, with great hope, anticipate a statement that sets things straight.
Thank you! This proves that GomTV is directly lying. Now they owe us an apology, and they owe MLG an apology.
However, it doesn't mean that the punishment is inappropriate. GomTV, just stick with your judgements, if they are Just they will stand.
Don't make up fake excuses and deny punishing a player. Now we can't trust you, GomTV. You are a business, not a cause. There are plenty of opposition tournaments that participate in the business of competitive eSports.
Your own judgement against NaNiWa is that he acted unprofessionally, and is not trustworthy to give competition to his opponents, nor quality entertainment to your viewers. Your own judgement is turned back upon you. It is not professional business practice to lie to your customers. You are no longer trustworthy.
If it is the cause of eSports that we are worried about, then we should support the trustworthy businesses. I certainly am not giving my credit card information to a company that blatantly lies.
GomTV isn't lying, partnership changed, read the OP. Naniwa wasn't punished, he just wasn't chose for the spot, read the OP. You're welcome.
You cant change partnership AFTER the event? that like changing prize money for the event AFTER someone has won the money LOL.
most precisely, it's like advertising the prize money to be 20k then after the match has taken place, say some bs like nope, we changed it to 5 bucks. Live with it.
On December 15 2011 07:25 uberMatt wrote: so you're penalizing everyone who does disrespectful ceremonies after they win, drops mules mid fight, does pylon hearts, etc right?
unless you mean to argue that those actions are less unprofessional or less disrespectful than naniwa throwing a pointless match?
They are. Ceremonies, mule bombs, scan clouds, etc. are entertaining. Throwing a highly anticipated game is not.
how entertaining a player is might correlate with how much enjoyment you get from watching them, but it certainly has nothing to do with either respect or professionalism.
gom has penalized naniwa for being unprofessional and showing disrespect, not for not being entertaining.
so again, i ask, why is a disrespectful ceremony in a match with consequence more acceptable than throwing a meaningless match?
On December 15 2011 07:41 SCST wrote: Again I love how people in this thread are constantly whining about how GOM has "no right" to take away a Code S spot for Naniwa. WRONG. GOM owns the tournament, they pay for it and decide every aspect of their own tournament. They can change the rules, break them or whatever they want.
You on the other hand (person complaining about this), most likely sit on your butt and watch the games from a couch eating Cheetos. What you want is irrelevant. What Naniwa wants is irrelevant. GOM can do whatever they want, and if they don't want a disrespectful punk on their show then all the whining and Cheeto-throwing in the world isn't going to change that. Individuals thinking "waaa it's unfair" seriously need to grow up. There aren't enough consequences for jerks in this world, it should be applauded when someone or something finally grows the balls to enforce some.
This is not how society works dude.
There is a lot of relation beetween companies and people, there are contracts and deals. One company can't just stop and say, FUCK IT ill change that just because I can. The truth is that the decision the GOM made has a great impact in one's life, and it was a decision made purely by passion, not by reason. And I don't care what are the Koreans traditions, you make some rules and people should follow those rules. Naniwa did not break any rule, so he shouldn't be punished like that, at most a warning of some kind.
We are talking in a 2 thousand dollar punishment at least here guys, is not just a spot.
A lot of people share the opinion that NaNiWa has not broken any rules and should therefore not receive any punishment.
It is true that NaNiWa has not taken actions that break any explicit rules, like for example using a cheat to gain an unfair advantage. NaNiWa has however purposefully not tried his best and shown this in a disrespectful manner. This was not only disappointing for his opponent NesTea and the GSL, but also for the many fans who had anticipated a great match. This behavior does not match with the definition of a progamer as laid out in the paragraph above.
Would have been a better game if he throwed down 2-3 fast expands (without forges or units) and loose from zerglins? You can force a player to play the way you want. If an athlete would not liek to give his best then he won't.
On December 15 2011 07:00 Derity wrote: so why idra and sen? why not stephano? did you even talk to him?
GomTv really failed to make clear that MLG Providence didn't give a Code S seed.
I believe Stephano has made a point that he does not want to play in Korea (GSL)
On December 15 2011 07:01 pi_rate_pir_ate wrote: I have a question about the game NaNiWa played against Nestea.
Did he micro his probes or simply stop them by Nestea?
The reason that I ask this, is that if he tried to win with his probe rush, I fail to see the distinction between this and a discouraged player cheesing his way out of a tournament.
He did not. He a-moved. At least Nestea went mineral drill to surround the probes.
Thank you! I wish I could have watched the games. I'm still a little confused about whether he had already been awarded the Code S or whether it was "under consideration." If it had been awarded, then it is clearly a punishment and GomTV is lying. This would seem completely unnecessary, because obviously you can't have players deliberately throwing games because that would make match-fixing motive based rather than fact based. GomTV did mention this last point in their statement.
So my remaining question:
Had Code S been officially awarded to NaNiWa? Is there digital or hard proof of this fact?
There has never been, as far as I know, a GOMTV announcement that Naniwa gets Code S.
Read Waxangels post
My point is: GOMTV, after MLG Providence, has never announced Naniwa to get the Code S.
But they did allrdy announce it get it?
They didnt announce MMA or DRG got a spot when they won there code S in the MLG exchange program
At MLG Columbus, the Top 3 non-Korean finishers will each be placed into GSL Code A. At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
this says it all Naniwa won a code S spot. Acording to there own rules.
So MLG Dallas 2025 will award a Code-S Spot too? Stop being blind, the partnership is over, or atleast in this form. GOM was about to explain it to us (as they said in this thread that you apparently didn't read). If you fail to read or refuse to believe them, it's your problem but that doesn't make your statement right.
MLG Dallas 2025 is not a 2011 Pro Circuit Live event, thus it will not award a code S spot, unless an agreement is made by that time that determines so.
MLG Providence 2011 on the other hand, is a 2011 Pro Circuit Live event and, according to an absolutaly clearly worded agreement between MLG and GSL/GOM, awards code S status to the highest placed non-code S player, unless none such exists in the top 3.
The partnership, as defined by the specific agreement is over, AFTER MLG Providence 2011. It includes (as very clearly stated in the announcements of both MLG and GOM) all 2011 Pro Circuit Live events subsequent to the starting date of the agreement.
Edited mistake in the last sentence.
Unless the partnership changes. Which happened. Read the OP.
No problem, as long as MLG or GOM remind us when did this happen and post the relevent links from the time it happened.
Or, alternatively, tell us that it changed secretly, with a relevant apology to the fans that they secretly changed an agreement and kept us all in the dark. If it didn't change secretly, there must have been in the past an official announcement of the change and the rules pages should be updated to reflect current information.
But I believe it never changed. I believe it was decided today that it is changed, in the light of circumstances.
I would be glad to see a link from the past announcing the change though.
GOMTV admits that Naniwa didnt break any rules and they claim that withdrawing his code s seed isnt a punishment. The definition of progamer they provide could be applied on pretty much anyone on any level. Nothing in that announcement makes much sense tbh
On December 15 2011 07:42 ACrow wrote: I could agree with Gom's punishment of revoking Naniwa's Code S spot for immature behavior... ...if it wasn't for the MLG exchange program. The way the wording of the program is - as far as it's public - GSL broke their obligations to MLG. This is very unprofessional by Gom and should be cleared up. If I were in Sundance's shoes, I'd be pissed; part of the appeal of his circuit is that it acts (or at least acted for 2011 events, which includes Providence) as qualifier for the most respected league. This damages MLG's reputation quite a bit if this is not cleared up! This whole thing makes me sad, I love the GSL, but something really seems fishy here
Naniwa was invited to Code S. Naniwa did not go through Code A or won through Up and Down matches.
he was one of candidate for Code S 2012 season 1. Due to his actions, he was taken of the lift of candidate. It is not like this is mid Season of Code S or anything. If Naniwa deserves to be in code S, he can go through the qualifier and show he has what it takes other than losing to Lucky two times in a row in first round.
wrong. as stated many times in this thread, he won a code S spot at providence.
Actually I think what happened is this: GOM changes their format along with how Code S seeds are given out. However, Naniwa was basically going to get the Code S spot if this incident didn't happen so GOM didn't see a reason to correct any of the articles stating this. The lack of complete transparency has come to haunt them, as it does many companies.
I am not really offended though and will continue to support GOM.
this, agree, everyone insist on RULES, but there are no need for rules. Naniwa did an unacceptable behaviour there and he got punished.
I bougth GSL Nov ticket. I bougth Blizzard Cup ticket.
I'd love to have seen Naniwa vs Nestea. It's a lack of respect refusing to give the best possible spectacle, playing till dead. That's why you are professional. You are in debt with your public, the ones that pay. If you think you are not, then don't play for money, refuse to accept the price in case of winning. Until you do that, you are stealing me if you refuse to play for a match I've paid but there's no money to win in it.
I support GOM, I love their ethics and that they fully understand what they are about.
I also would like to ask them to keep an eye on Idra. He's also very obsessed with money and those early Idraculations sometimes are very frustrating from the spectator point of view, specially because I'd love to see him winning.
I fully support GOMTV. People need to realize that if a Korean had done what Naniwa did, the consequences would have been way harsher. I don't see how anyone can still support Naniwa after he has shown time and time again that the only thing he gives a shit about is himself.
On December 15 2011 07:46 L3gendary wrote: Wouldn't be the first time gom has tried to cover something up, like they did with the (not so) sound-proof booths.
At MLG Columbus, the Top 3 non-Korean finishers will each be placed into GSL Code A. At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
"
Circumstances change. At the time that was written, Gom had a certain tournament format. Their format has changed a lot since that statement was made. It's only natural that the way players are seeded into gsl from mlg also change with it. There is no hypocrisy or lying here. Just a reshuffling of how mlg players are now seeded into gsl.
EPT
