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On December 14 2011 21:42 Resonance wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:36 hmsrenown wrote:On December 14 2011 21:17 Resonance wrote:On December 14 2011 20:51 hmsrenown wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 skideff wrote:
Poor Naniwa, poor interview.
I sincerely feel sorry for Naniwa.
If he understands e-sports culture in Korea 0.01%,
he couldn't have done and moreover he couldn't do the interview like that.
Your act is almost insults to Korean e-sports culture.
The great players could not exists without fans.
They need to do their best of best for fans no matter what the situation is.
That is the fundamental to whom wants to become a progamer in Korea.
That is why Slayers_Coca gave up GSL Code S and Byun Hyun Woo kept apologize to fans about the incident.
Bye Naniwa!
Many Koreans want to see your success in GSL include myself.
But you just kicked yourself and Korean fans' hope out of the door.
I guess most Koreans won't care whether you keep doing good outside of Korea or not
unless you take the situation more seriously from the Korean fans' point of view and apologize from your heart.
If Naniwa still could not get the point, Naniwa should talk with Jinro who understands the situation a lot better I guess. It's totally different. This match has exactly no consequence. It's not a "match-fix" that is pre-determined. In essence Naniwa was forfeiting the match, but couldn't do so otherwise. It's very offensive towards both viewers and the other player. Not showing respect for every single game. It's much less about whether it was fixed or not, but rather more so about playing a good game. Would you not be upset to see your favorite gamer just throw away his last game, especially if you paid for it? Not only this, but he showed no respect for Nestea by doing this sort of rush. I am not hating because it is Naniwa, but rather I'm hating because of his actions. If MC did something like that I'd lose all respect for him. All competitor has a right to forfeit in my opinion. And they will if the circumstances are less than favourable. How about baseball teams out of contention playing their minor leaguers come September? That give fans terrible games, showing contempt to supposed "competitiveness" of the game, but no one whined about that. Oh yes, fans paid to see those games TOO! I just simply fail to see how SC2 needs to hold a "honor code" than any other sport. It doesn't make the game any more better than another, competition is competition, any way you cut it. Moreover, I am stunned at differential treatment that Nani got for his actions, I think nobody complained when ToD outright forfeited the three matches remaining after going 1-2 in groups with little to no hope of advancing. ToD has a following, he was "fighting for his country" over excellent players like SarenS and Adelscott, and even Stephano. To put it simply, I believe the person behind the screen had more to do with the decision than his in game actions. And if he was denied the right to forfeit the game when it is inconsequential, it is downright ridiculous to force him to play half-hearted and see a fail 4-gate. Different league has different ruling. I'd rather watch him get dismantled than see him probe rush. Not putting in effort is just a joke. Half-hearted 4 gate>probe rush. Just because we still see some amount of skill other than ability to micro some probes.
He's got nothing to prove with a half-hearted 4-gate. I wouldn't dismiss this argument, but GM draws in chess doesn't display that much skill either. An inconsequential 4-gate would be SC2 equivalent of a GM draw with just as much effort and just as much skill display in my humble opinion.
Personally I'd put up a good game every game I play, but I just simply do not believe that it is a moral standard that every competitor must adhere to unless the competition specifically outlined in the rules. In which case, GSL did not until after the fact (another thing that bugs me is the retroactive application of the rule).
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On December 14 2011 20:13 skideff wrote:
Poor Naniwa, poor interview.
I sincerely feel sorry for Naniwa.
If he understands e-sports culture in Korea 0.01%,
he couldn't have done and moreover he couldn't do the interview like that.
Your act is almost insults to Korean e-sports culture.
The great players could not exists without fans.
They need to do their best of best for fans no matter what the situation is.
That is the fundamental to whom wants to become a progamer in Korea.
That is why Slayers_Coca gave up GSL Code S and Byun Hyun Woo kept apologize to fans about the incident.
Bye Naniwa!
Many Koreans want to see your success in GSL include myself.
But you just kicked yourself and Korean fans' hope out of the door.
I guess most Koreans won't care whether you keep doing good outside of Korea or not
unless you take the situation more seriously from the Korean fans' point of view and apologize from your heart.
If Naniwa still could not get the point, Naniwa should talk with Jinro who understands the situation a lot better I guess.
Clearly there's a big cultural divide between east and west that makes it hard not to misinterpret each others actions. Although it should also be said that it seems naniwa has a hard time dealing with many different social contexts. It's disheartening, because he clearly wants to do well and to be liked.
Anyways, it's interesting to get the Korean perspective. I've argued how I believe much of the blame should be put on GOM for their flawed choice of tournament-format, and how I have a hard time accepting their complete lack of acknowledgement of any responsibility of the current situation. But it's interesting to hear your point of view. From my perspective it's a huge overreaction to a fairly benign situation, and one that is caused by bad planning, but obviously there's a whole set of traditions and expectations that I'm not aware of. I just really hoped that somehow the situation can be salvaged and that he can repair his relationship to he Korean community, regardless of who is to blame.
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Sjows vs Whit-ra on DreamHack was a game like this, nobody complained and everybody found it funny....
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On December 14 2011 19:36 shin432 wrote:
I know its easy for people to say "who cares" but what if your favorite nba, soccer, football, hockey etc etc team had the same mentality? Just cause they can't make it to the finals and they just throw every single game since they know they can't make it to the finals. I think what naniwa did was pretty disrespectful to the game and for those who paid to watch the match.
Are people that retarded?
It was the fact that NEITHER player could advance, not that just HE couldn't advance, that was why it was pointless...
On December 14 2011 19:23 LXR wrote:
He seems to have some internal conflict. He thinks he is a serious and focused progamer focused on improving himself, yet when presented with the opportunity to play a televised match vs. one of the best zergs in the world, a chance to defend his skill and name, and he just shits on everything? Apparently his whining in the quantic/complexity issue shows that complexity was probably in the right... they realized that naniwa was too immature and unfocused to succeed as a moneymaker for their team.
As he said in the interview, he couldn't play at his best because of his mental state, so how exactly is he supposed to defend his skill if he already knows that he can't play his best?
If complexity sees that in a player that they recruit and just give up on him and hand him off to someone else, it shows they don't really care...? I mean they could HELP his mentality, try and change it so that he can really be a "moneymaker for their team"
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I'm completely behind Naniwa on this one.
Korean Culture shouldn't matter. SC2 has really become an international thing. GomTv shouldn't punish a player for not taking a game seriously. In my eyes it's completely their fault for not making the games matter. We international viewers don't go on GomTv to see Korean culture, we go there for Starcraft 2. Its about the game. And if the player thinks that loosing a game because it doesn't really matter for him, its not his fault. It's the organisations fault for not making that match mean something. Another solution would be to contract the players to show best offort and paying the player for it. This would sadly reduce the price pool of course.
Here an analogy that applies perfectly imho: If I create an online tournament, set the price to 100$ for first and 50$ for second, i can't expect the match for the 3rd place to be played, right? Let's say the players don't want to play for the 3rd/4th match and i tell them: "Play this match or you will be banned for the next Tournament.". This is my right, as I organise the tournament. But is it the right thing to do?
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oh my god i love the drama in e-sports so much , small things like this really hypes me
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Nani your the best, keep fighting!
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damn i missed probe rush ;/ didnt even watch the game, because it didnt change anything for both players..
..and with GOM decision to ban Nani, koreans will love GOM for that and foreigners will hate GOM for that..
.as for me ill hold on buying premium ticket for the next season.
Peace off
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I appreciate his honesty, but it's sad when players need money to play their best. Back in War2/Kali thousands of players played hard on the ladder for pride alone. It's nice that SC has grown this into a cash tournament setting, but is it only for money now?
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If Naniwa really isn't banned and only lost his seed, I hope he tries for the Code A qualifiers and gets in.
There would be no better storyline than Naniwa losing his GSL Code S seed, qualifying for Code A, then winning his way back into Code S.
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On December 14 2011 23:09 Zzoram wrote:
If Naniwa really isn't banned and only lost his seed, I hope he tries for the Code A qualifiers and gets in.
There would be no better storyline than Naniwa losing his GSL Code S seed, qualifying for Code A, then winning his way back into Code S.
he only lost his seed from what i saw in another post
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On December 14 2011 22:26 m0l0ch wrote:
I'm completely behind Naniwa on this one.
Korean Culture shouldn't matter. SC2 has really become an international thing. GomTv shouldn't punish a player for not taking a game seriously. In my eyes it's completely their fault for not making the games matter. We international viewers don't go on GomTv to see Korean culture, we go there for Starcraft 2. Its about the game. And if the player thinks that loosing a game because it doesn't really matter for him, its not his fault. It's the organisations fault for not making that match mean something. Another solution would be to contract the players to show best offort and paying the player for it. This would sadly reduce the price pool of course.
Here an analogy that applies perfectly imho: If I create an online tournament, set the price to 100$ for first and 50$ for second, i can't expect the match for the 3rd place to be played, right? Let's say the players don't want to play for the 3rd/4th match and i tell them: "Play this match or you will be banned for the next Tournament.". This is my right, as I organise the tournament. But is it the right thing to do?
You should adopt the custom where you are.
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On December 14 2011 22:26 m0l0ch wrote:
Korean Culture shouldn't matter. SC2 has really become an international thing. GomTv shouldn't ...
International doesn't mean western culture rules. Korean culture is just as valid as western - more so since GSL is by far the largest tournament (MLG beats them in live audiences I guess, but nothing else) - and they are running it.
A korean company running a tournament in Korea with mostly korean players where they make the rules of the tournament ... I can't see why he should get a pass because 'korean culture shouldn't matter'.
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Naniwa has proven time and time again that he's not a respectable progamer and that he doesn't care about the fans or the tournaments he plays in. Glad to see him gone.
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On December 14 2011 22:26 m0l0ch wrote:
I'm completely behind Naniwa on this one.
Korean Culture shouldn't matter. SC2 has really become an international thing. GomTv shouldn't punish a player for not taking a game seriously. In my eyes it's completely their fault for not making the games matter. We international viewers don't go on GomTv to see Korean culture, we go there for Starcraft 2. Its about the game. And if the player thinks that loosing a game because it doesn't really matter for him, its not his fault. It's the organisations fault for not making that match mean something. Another solution would be to contract the players to show best offort and paying the player for it. This would sadly reduce the price pool of course.
Here an analogy that applies perfectly imho: If I create an online tournament, set the price to 100$ for first and 50$ for second, i can't expect the match for the 3rd place to be played, right? Let's say the players don't want to play for the 3rd/4th match and i tell them: "Play this match or you will be banned for the next Tournament.". This is my right, as I organise the tournament. But is it the right thing to do?
1) players were paid by gom to play in the tourny which means they are expected to show or attempt to show their best games
2) All players knew about the format before signing up. So they knew they had to play out all games. It was their choice to sign up or not.
3) Gom is a korean sc tourny managed by Korean people. So they can apply their culture to give out punishment they see fit like MLG's punishment might seem soft to koreans but they can't do anything because MLG is managed by Americans.
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understandable, but i cant ignore the lack of respect
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I think a line from "The Big Lebowski" fits this situation best - "Your not wrong, your just an asshole."
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On December 14 2011 23:25 Witten wrote:
Naniwa has proven time and time again that he's not a respectable progamer and that he doesn't care about the fans or the tournaments he plays in. Glad to see him gone.
this + sponsors and his team.
Being childish really...
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Pure honesty is a thing that i admire. Even he is not right with his actions.
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On December 15 2011 01:25 theaxis12 wrote:
I think a line from "The Big Lebowski" fits this situation best - "Your not wrong, your just an asshole."
Well put. I think people need to separate their unhappiness with Nani's attitude from some higher moral or ethical misstep they keep trying to pin on him. Especially GOM, wtf pull code s seed, hes so good.
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EPT
