On December 14 2011 04:09 Sea_Food wrote: You could edit this at the end of OP
TL;DR
Some Koreans do not understand that there are people in the world with different cultures. That happens when a nation does not have enough immigrants. People there will not learn to respect other cultures within their own borders.
Understanding cultures go both ways. You expect Koreans to understand Naniwa's "Western" culture of winning but you do not understand the Korean culture of respect. So ironic.
Last time I checked, "fighting to the bitter end" thing is very prevalent in Western cultures. 300 and Spartans and all.
Naniwa was in pissed off, so there is a reason why he dosnt act respectfully.
And FYI. 300 spartans was not a documentary. 300 spartans never did kill 10 000 persians. If you havent stayed awake during history lessons, western nations give up before they have only 300 soldiers left.
I don't think you understood my reference to 300 and the Spartans. I'm saying how Western culture seems to have some sort of value in fighting to the end because it's the honourable thing to do and how the lore of the Battle of Thermopylae is one of the most celebrated examples of this.
Also I don't see how Naniwa being pissed off is an excuse to not act respectfully. Do Western parents really buy the candy for their child just because the child is having a temper tantrum?
Yeah they do buy them the candy kinda often, and it really blows. But Naniwa sees the world differently, and probably didn't even conceive that it might be disrespectful. Im' sure he's totally shocked at how much hate he's getting for a fucking probe rush.
Reading the interview I cannot see any sign of Naniwa being shocked, he still thinks he did nothing wrong, even if he denied the PAYING STARCRAFT2-FANS a game of NesTea.
On December 14 2011 02:12 oxxo wrote: Gotta love the foreigner bias. Complete outrage over what coca did, but a pass and complaints about Korean 'racism' when naniwa does something similar.
How are those two situations even fucking comparable? Go read up on the countless threads, dude.
How are they not? They both threw games. You are a prime example of what I'm talking about.
Coca threw a game in the first round in a different tournament that had nothing to do with gomtv. He played out the games for entertainment, rather than not showing up. The outcome would be exactly the same if he didn't show up and didn't impact any other players.
Naniwa threw a game in a gomtv tournament where the rules explicity state that you don't throw games. Here as well, the games didn't matter.
Imho, what Coca did was less serious, and less of a thing gomtv should punish since it wasn't part of their tournaments.
This was more serious since it's their tournament AND he broke a rule.
In neither case did the outcome matter to any other players or change their chances.
But of course they are somewhat comparable ... there are however some small differences between them.
What rules? GSL rules or ANYTHING GomTV related? Because GSL certainly doesn't have pointless matches that hope the players are willing to throw the game in a more entertaining way.
That's the whole point. No good tourney has pointless matches and any tourney that does should be at blame, not the players they force to play those matches.
Teams eliminated from playoff contention in other sports still have to play out the regular season, and their players still go out there and perform.
In the end I just really hope HuK can show the Koreans that the foreigners can be nice too...
I just love it when people bring this up. I think Huk is really funny, but consider one of the things Huk did at MLG Providence. When he played (and lost) against Naniwa, he put the "It's simple, we kill the Batman" meme image of Naniwa on his desktop, which would show to the entire audience on big screen in between games. Imagine this was the GSL, and Huk had put some meme image "making fun of"* NesTea on the big screen. Wouldn't that be like one million times more disrespectful than what Naniwa did today? And still, I don't think I've heard anyone even mentioning this particular event from MLG since*. Everyone was busy talking about how Nani thumbs downed NesTea, as if he had just killed a bassetful of kittens.
How's that for double standards?
*Apart from being a side note in the whole "was Nani booed?" discussion.
It was a culmination of various things, from "idiotic" to pausing to criticizing MLG to thumbs down. Thumbs down alone is a normal ceremony performed in GSTL many times, nobody minds. Naniwa did the thumbs down at a pretty bad timing, and that explains the reaction.
And i'm sure if MVP did something like that image to Nestea, it wouldn't have mattered since they are on good terms. Huk and Naniwa are on good terms i suppose.
A culmination of various minor things that has happened lots of times before in various tournaments with various players. This will probably sound a bit biased, but I can't help but feel that all these reactions are different because they involve NesTea and the Korean scene. It's like they have some divine status and that the foreigner mortals should fall in line. Would anyone have cared if Idra had called Huk an idiot on stream? Would anyone have cared if Jinro said "fuck" on Dreamhack stage? It just feels like we're tip-toeing around the whole korean/foreigner thing. As if the foreigners have to be super respectful of the Koreans or else they might not be allowed to play with them anymore.
Well, at MLG Invitational/Providence, Naniwa was a mortal who said "I don't think you're gods". I guess in one way he did today as well.
Yes, its generalizing and no, it doesn't include everyone, but it just feels a bit iffy imo.
Nestea has a lot of fans, so all those fans turned into haters the moment Naniwa was misunderstood with that "idiotic" comment.
Its not about korea imo. I bet if Naniwa said that idra was idiotic, all those stupid idra fan boys will rush to hate on Naniwa too. On the other hand, if Naniwa said that someone like Artist was idiotic, everybody would be like "OH SO BM <3", "OH THATS HILARIOUS" , "NANIWA <3", "OH I JUST JIZZED IN MY PANTS, NANIWA SUCH A BADASS"
"NaNiwa makes Greg Fields look like an angel?" Powerful stuff right here lol. In all honesty NaNi should maybe take a break from gaming for a while to put things into perspective.
On December 13 2011 23:04 paschl wrote: how is this any different than idra regularly throwing the 7/8 (or similar) place matches in mlgs?
placement matches aren't broadcast.
So you're saying it was GOMTV's fault for broadcasting an inconsequential game?
I would say that 30 minutes after a player is eliminated from a major tournament is a bad time for them to be on camera, playing or not. These sorts of matchs seem out of place in a professional competition. Is there another sport where players are expected to play 30 minutes after losing a major match? Personally I expect them to shake hands if they are not to emotional and then go process their loss in their own way.
In the olympics, some competitors break down when they lose and not one expects them to shake hands, gg or be interviewed. I don't understand why Starcraft 2 is any different. Players give up a lot to play in Korea. They are away from friends, family, and miss out on things that are important to them.
Nani shouldn't have thrown the game because he knew what he got into when he accepted the slot. However, tournament should really think about what sort of state the player will be in after a loss and if it is a good idea to have him on camera 30 minutes later.
This is the most important part, imo. I agree the format is silly, but by accepting to play you accept the format. What I don't understand is why even start the game, why not just ask to forfeit beforehand.
People have been saying he asked but I can't find a source of this
It was childish, how you basketball fans feel if there favorite team didnt show up to the last match cause the out come was irrelevant? I remember a while back (i lived in chicago okay) sammy sosa left a game early because either they were losing really bad or the outcome was irrelevant and it cause a small outrage.
NaNi's getting paid to play so he should play and if he doesn't want to play also it just looks bad for the whole professionalism of esports/scII and it also looks bad for quantic
On December 14 2011 04:37 Gabriel Verlaine wrote: "People are just hating because it's me who did it."
Naniwa really seems to think all people all over the world are either hating or loving him. But Naniwa there are still people who don't give a shit about you. I just wanted to see another ZvP of NesTea and I paid for it. So I really hope you drop off eSports for hurting it so much.
Why would you want to see a bullshit PvZ where neither player is trying their hardest?
On December 14 2011 03:20 GeNeSiDe wrote: The whole point of these "pointless matches".
1. To play out the groups to have REAL table results rather than just so and so advance. In World Cup, if two teams go 0-2 they still play each other. It doesn't matter for any other reason but my point #2.
Just you don't see it doesn't mean it couldn't happen. It's very very difficult for an ENTIRE team to all not give a shit. OFten times in those types of games you will see quite a few players not really exerting themselves. Which is often why those kinds of games the teams use it as a chance for lesser known players to get playing or practice time. When you have a team of 1, its so very easy to give up as its soley your decision, and ahve your whole "team" quitting. If this was a GSTL type match, even if it didn't matter, I'm sure Naniwa would of put more efforit into it soley for the sake of it being a team situation. When its just about yourself its very easy to give up as the ramifications are much less servere.
THAT IS EXACTLY MY POINT.
They might not be exerting themselves. They might not be playing their strongest side, but they are still playing to a professional standard. Unless you are an absolute expert who knows the capabilities of each individual player you won't be able to tell the difference. None of them are about to kick the ball out of touch and walk off the pitch are they? That's essentially what Nani has done, and then justifies it because he wasn't in a "right mindframe to deliver games for my fans"? I have never seen a professional team quit in ANY SPORT not just football. Think about F1 or any other form of motorsport, do the bottom 14 cars retire from the race just because they won't score points? No, they finish the race doing the best that they can, esp in F1 the most exciting battles can be seen fighting for the midfield pointless spots because these people have something to prove to their sponsors, their fans and themselves. Imagine if Vettel said after Japan "I'm not going to finish the season because I am #1 already, I've already been paid and have taken all I can out of this year". He would probably be fired and face fines.
Let's be honest NaNiWa is not winning everything, he hasn't won 14 tournaments out of 19, he hasn't secured #1 in MLG points ranking, in GSL points ranking, probably not even #1 in-house ranking or #1 on ladder. Do you really think he is in the position where he can just walk away from games because he feels like it? Should you really be justifying this kind of behavior?
Like I said, REAL professionals know how to hide their emotions and play out their commitments without incident. Seeing how Naniwa has insulted MLG, Nestea, GSL, Blizzard and a whole host of his ex-teams which judging by the Korean coaches statement were happy to have him out of the house, there is just too much bad energy around this guy.
I think he fails to realize that you can act like this when your on the up, but as soon as the cards turn against you, you will be left with nothing and hit rock bottom. Pissing off every team you've ever been with, every tournament organizer, fellow players and your beloved fans is just the first step in making this happen.
And for those comparing his antics to those of the legendary Firebathero, look at his "BM" and tell me it's on the same scale. FBH was showmanship and charisma(which is why I like MC, even though he can look a little awkward at times doing it, FBH just has flair on stage and looks like a yakuza in shades).
Tell me someone like this would not be GOOD for SC2? And Nani is just BAD, he may not be SPOILED(as in he has everything he ever wanted) but he acts like it by the way he takes the scene for granted apparently. Talent is only a part of the equation....
On December 14 2011 04:42 forsooth wrote: Teams eliminated from playoff contention in other sports still have to play out the regular season, and their players still go out there and perform.
and almost never are they required to go out and play immeadiately after losing game 7 of a finals or something. If Naniwa had been required to play the game even the day after, it probably would of turned out completely differently.
I'd say every sport needs a heel and this is perfectly normal and good for the scene. You've got Dennis Rodman and Chael Sonnen and then you have Naniwa. Adds some flavor and that WTF factor to the scene and gives people something to talk about ^.^
On December 14 2011 03:17 legaton wrote: Well, with Naniwa going 0-4 on a slightly worst pool than Stephano (2-2), it seems to me it is clear now who's the better player. I think now Stephano can claim the title of best foreigner.
You can't be serious. I know you're French but at least try to pass as a little less biased.
This comes off as a lot more racist than I think you intended The best competition wasn't necessarily at this tournament, so I think the claim that Stephano≥all other foreigners is unfounded based on just this tournament, but this reply just made me laugh.
No it doesn't, I'm not talking about French people in general, I'm saying the guy is obviously biased towards Stephano because he's French.
On December 13 2011 23:04 paschl wrote: how is this any different than idra regularly throwing the 7/8 (or similar) place matches in mlgs?
placement matches aren't broadcast.
So you're saying it was GOMTV's fault for broadcasting an inconsequential game?
I would say that 30 minutes after a player is eliminated from a major tournament is a bad time for them to be on camera, playing or not. These sorts of matchs seem out of place in a professional competition. Is there another sport where players are expected to play 30 minutes after losing a major match? Personally I expect them to shake hands if they are not to emotional and then go process their loss in their own way.
In the olympics, some competitors break down when they lose and not one expects them to shake hands, gg or be interviewed. I don't understand why Starcraft 2 is any different. Players give up a lot to play in Korea. They are away from friends, family, and miss out on things that are important to them.
Nani shouldn't have thrown the game because he knew what he got into when he accepted the slot. However, tournament should really think about what sort of state the player will be in after a loss and if it is a good idea to have him on camera 30 minutes later.
Exactly that.
We do get that it was hard for him, and seriously, GOM should be careful with that... but he knew what he was getting into and that it could happen, so throwing the game away was really shamefull. He knew that "non money related game" could happen, and that he would have to play them.
But eh, if GOM want to punish him, hard or not, it's their right.
On December 13 2011 23:12 zul wrote: Naniwa responds on twitter: "apparently people got upset when i probe rushed nestea, the game was pointless and it couldnt change anything in the tournament."
people who bought the HD Pass just to see good games from him, will not approve of this behavior.
The people who bought the HD Pass knew the format of the tournament and knew that it allowed for inconsequential games. Without the incentive of winning a tournament, progamers should not try to win. No one is good enough to waste their best effort on inconsequential games, especially with how many major tournaments there are nowadays. Whatever the best strategy Naniwa had in mind for the game, he should not use it. What irrational people want and expect is for the players to put on a false show of a competition, where they both seem to be trying enough for viewers to successfully suspend their disbelief. Such people don't constitute a significant enough part of the community to justify this huge reaction.
Tyler said it best right here. I think that many people just don't have any empathy for how hard it is to be a pro gamer.
Really? How "hard" it is to be a pro gamer? You've got hundreds of thousands of nerds who would give anything to be in your shoes. You're playing a video game for money. Go talk to all of the unemployed recent college graduates about how hard your lives are. Go whine about all of the expectations placed on you by the community to the guy who just lost his office job and doesn't know how he's going to pay the mortgage next month.
Honestly, talk about people acting fucking entitled.
NOTE: wasn't meant to be completely directed AT YOU, setmeal... just at the general idea.
Practice SC2 for 12 hours a day and pray something comes out of it.
On December 14 2011 04:37 Gabriel Verlaine wrote: "People are just hating because it's me who did it."
Naniwa really seems to think all people all over the world are either hating or loving him. But Naniwa there are still people who don't give a shit about you. I just wanted to see another ZvP of NesTea and I paid for it. So I really hope you drop off eSports for hurting it so much.
Why would you want to see a bullshit PvZ where neither player is trying their hardest?
Well, one wasn't. You can't say the other wasn't either.
AFAIK aren't progamers supposed to sign contracts stating that they are supposed to play all games to their best abilities, and Naniwa violated the contract with this?
On December 13 2011 23:12 zul wrote: Naniwa responds on twitter: "apparently people got upset when i probe rushed nestea, the game was pointless and it couldnt change anything in the tournament."
people who bought the HD Pass just to see good games from him, will not approve of this behavior.
The people who bought the HD Pass knew the format of the tournament and knew that it allowed for inconsequential games. Without the incentive of winning a tournament, progamers should not try to win. No one is good enough to waste their best effort on inconsequential games, especially with how many major tournaments there are nowadays. Whatever the best strategy Naniwa had in mind for the game, he should not use it. What irrational people want and expect is for the players to put on a false show of a competition, where they both seem to be trying enough for viewers to successfully suspend their disbelief. Such people don't constitute a significant enough part of the community to justify this huge reaction.
Tyler said it best right here. I think that many people just don't have any empathy for how hard it is to be a pro gamer.
Really? How "hard" it is to be a pro gamer? You've got hundreds of thousands of nerds who would give anything to be in your shoes. You're playing a video game for money. Go talk to all of the unemployed recent college graduates about how hard your lives are. Go whine about all of the expectations placed on you by the community to the guy who just lost his office job and doesn't know how he's going to pay the mortgage next month.
Honestly, talk about people acting fucking entitled.
NOTE: wasn't meant to be completely directed AT YOU, setmeal... just at the general idea.
You know why there are not hundreds of thousands of nerds who are taking his place? Because they can not handle practicing and the stress of being a progamer.
On December 14 2011 03:20 GeNeSiDe wrote: The whole point of these "pointless matches".
1. To play out the groups to have REAL table results rather than just so and so advance. In World Cup, if two teams go 0-2 they still play each other. It doesn't matter for any other reason but my point #2.
Just you don't see it doesn't mean it couldn't happen. It's very very difficult for an ENTIRE team to all not give a shit. OFten times in those types of games you will see quite a few players not really exerting themselves. Which is often why those kinds of games the teams use it as a chance for lesser known players to get playing or practice time. When you have a team of 1, its so very easy to give up as its soley your decision, and ahve your whole "team" quitting. If this was a GSTL type match, even if it didn't matter, I'm sure Naniwa would of put more efforit into it soley for the sake of it being a team situation. When its just about yourself its very easy to give up as the ramifications are much less servere.
THAT IS EXACTLY MY POINT.
They might not be exerting themselves. They might not be playing their strongest side, but they are still playing to a professional standard. Unless you are an absolute expert who knows the capabilities of each individual player you won't be able to tell the difference. None of them are about to kick the ball out of touch and walk off the pitch are they? That's essentially what Nani has done, and then justifies it because he wasn't in a "right mindframe to deliver games for my fans"? I have never seen a professional team quit in ANY SPORT not just football. Think about F1 or any other form of motorsport, do the bottom 14 cars retire from the race just because they won't score points? No, they finish the race doing the best that they can, esp in F1 the most exciting battles can be seen fighting for the midfield pointless spots because these people have something to prove to their sponsors, their fans and themselves. Imagine if Vettel said after Japan "I'm not going to finish the season because I am #1 already, I've already been paid and have taken all I can out of this year". He would probably be fired and face fines.
Let's be honest NaNiWa is not winning everything, he hasn't won 14 tournaments out of 19, he hasn't secured #1 in MLG points ranking, in GSL points ranking, probably not even #1 in-house ranking or #1 on ladder. Do you really think he is in the position where he can just walk away from games because he feels like it? Should you really be justifying this kind of behavior?
Like I said, REAL professionals know how to hide their emotions and play out their commitments without incident. Seeing how Naniwa has insulted MLG, Nestea, GSL, Blizzard and a whole host of his ex-teams which judging by the Korean coaches statement were happy to have him out of the house, there is just too much bad energy around this guy.
I think he fails to realize that you can act like this when your on the up, but as soon as the cards turn against you, you will be left with nothing and hit rock bottom. Pissing off every team you've ever been with, every tournament organizer, fellow players and your beloved fans is just the first step in making this happen.
And for those comparing his antics to those of the legendary Firebathero, look at his "BM" and tell me it's on the same scale. FBH was showmanship and charisma(which is why I like MC, even though he can look a little awkward at times doing it, FBH just has flair on stage and looks like a yakuza in shades).
Tell me someone like this would not be GOOD for SC2? And Nani is just BAD, he may not be SPOILED(as in he has everything he ever wanted) but he acts like it by the way he takes the scene for granted apparently. Talent is only a part of the equation....
This should close the thread. Not just the epic FBH celebration, but its about making E-sports as professional as real sports.
They might not be exerting themselves. They might not be playing their strongest side, but they are still playing to a professional standard. Unless you are an absolute expert who knows the capabilities of each individual player you won't be able to tell the difference. None of them are about to kick the ball out of touch and walk off the pitch are they? That's essentially what Nani has done, and then justifies it because he wasn't in a "right mindframe to deliver games for my fans"? I have never seen a professional team quit in ANY SPORT not just football. Think about F1 or any other form of motorsport, do the bottom 14 cars retire from the race just because they won't score points? No, they finish the race doing the best that they can, esp in F1 the most exciting battles can be seen fighting for the midfield pointless spots because these people have something to prove to their sponsors, their fans and themselves. Imagine if Vettel said after Japan "I'm not going to finish the season because I am #1 already, I've already been paid and have taken all I can out of this year". He would probably be fired and face fines.
Let's be honest NaNiWa is not winning everything, he hasn't won 14 tournaments out of 19, he hasn't secured #1 in MLG points ranking, in GSL points ranking, probably not even #1 in-house ranking or #1 on ladder. Do you really think he is in the position where he can just walk away from games because he feels like it? Should you really be justifying this kind of behavior?
Like I said, REAL professionals know how to hide their emotions and play out their commitments without incident. Seeing how Naniwa has insulted MLG, Nestea, GSL, Blizzard and a whole host of his ex-teams which judging by the Korean coaches statement were happy to have him out of the house, there is just too much bad energy around this guy.
I think he fails to realize that you can act like this when your on the up, but as soon as the cards turn against you, you will be left with nothing and hit rock bottom. Pissing off every team you've ever been with, every tournament organizer, fellow players and your beloved fans is just the first step in making this happen.
And for those comparing his antics to those of the legendary Firebathero, look at his "BM" and tell me it's on the same scale. FBH was showmanship and charisma(which is why I like MC, even though he can look a little awkward at times doing it, FBH just has flair on stage and looks like a yakuza in shades).
Tell me someone like this would not be GOOD for SC2? And Nani is just BAD, he may not be SPOILED(as in he has everything he ever wanted) but he acts like it by the way he takes the scene for granted apparently. Talent is only a part of the equation....
In all honesty, they pretty much bench players showing signs of doing so, or they are told before not to play. Kobe Bryant caused a shit storm in the wester conference finals, when his team was going to lose and he stopped shooting to prove how shit the Lakers around him were. He got alot of shit for that, but fans will always be disappointed when they dont' see someone giving it their all. Sure its not great, but let's not pretend it doesn't happen in other sports, and that Naniwa is way worse.
I don't think you understood my reference to 300 and the Spartans. I'm saying how Western culture seems to have some sort of value in fighting to the end because it's the honourable thing to do and how the lore of the Battle of Thermopylae is one of the most celebrated examples of this.
Also I don't see how Naniwa being pissed off is an excuse to not act respectfully. Do Western parents really buy the candy for their child just because the child is having a temper tantrum?
The battle of Thermopylae wasn't about fighting to the bitter end as there were a hell of a lot more than 300 Spartans left in the world. It was about doing the best you can to defend your homeland and the power of a superior mentality(fighting power in the specific case) in any situation to overcome overwhelming odds and crush the biggest bad guys.
This thread has led to by far the worst possible arguments I've ever seen on this site.
No one can deny you your reactions but don't bother arguing with every non-hater if you're gonna come with this silly stuff.
On December 14 2011 04:37 Gabriel Verlaine wrote: "People are just hating because it's me who did it."
Naniwa really seems to think all people all over the world are either hating or loving him. But Naniwa there are still people who don't give a shit about you. I just wanted to see another ZvP of NesTea and I paid for it. So I really hope you drop off eSports for hurting it so much.
Why would you want to see a bullshit PvZ where neither player is trying their hardest?
This is the difference between Naniwa an NesTea: NesTea would try to win anyway. Nani is just a child with no fighting spirit.
EPT
