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On December 07 2011 04:54 gogogadgetflow wrote:"The way I play is to create a pattern where I have an advantage, and then crush my opponents with momentum. That way my opponent can’t play with 100% of his skill. That’s why I think mind-games are more important than skill."-  iloveoov I'd describe his play as being more tactic-centric as compared to strategy-centric than we have been seeing from top players since beta
This will be the case for all BW pros that switch, utter and unstoppable domination
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On December 07 2011 08:46 Zanno wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think everyone who's trying to downplay this either didn't watch the vods or didn't watch them closely enough If you just look at a list of the players he beat to get into Code S it doesn't seem that impressive, that's true However, the reason I ForGG's rise so alarming, is how badly he roflstomped all these players As a comparison point, watch MVP vs July MVP vs. July http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors5/vod/66109ForGG vs. July http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors7/vod/66572Now MVP did win that series but it was a rather bloody set with some extremely long games (If you've never seen that game on Meta, you should). MVP was clearly dominant, but aside from the bunker rush on Antiga, July didn't just roll over and die immediately. ForGG, on the other hand, completely managed to cripple July both games in his very first attack, and he didn't cheese or all-in doing it, either, he used a very small number of units to maximum effect and macroed up an even bigger attack behind it. I think July is a good reference point because as much as I am a fan of him, I feel like in recent months July's sc2 skill has remained constant while everyone else in Code S has either shot well beyond him, or was better than him to begin with. That's why I'm convinced ForGG is already one of the best at SC2, myself. MVP crushed July, but ForGG pulverized him. I imagine absolutely nobody is going to have the balls to pick him in group selection. This means that next season we have an almost 95% guarantee of seeing Leenock vs ForGG, who will be the poor sap stuck in group H on merit of getting 2nd place. If he beats Leenock, then I think there's no question anymore.
MVP v July was from months ago, so IDK if that's the best comparison...
Also, no one is underrating him, from what I can see, most people are just saying that 3 series against mid-tier pros are not the damning evidence we need to crown him the GoAT of SC2 yet. I watched him against July and he looked really good, sure, but also lucky. I want to see a nice Bo5 or a Bo7 against MVP, NesTea, Leenock, Jjakji, Oz, etc. before I make my predictions.
That being said... dude is obviously legit.
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On December 07 2011 08:50 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 08:46 Zanno wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think everyone who's trying to downplay this either didn't watch the vods or didn't watch them closely enough If you just look at a list of the players he beat to get into Code S it doesn't seem that impressive, that's true However, the reason I ForGG's rise so alarming, is how badly he roflstomped all these players As a comparison point, watch MVP vs July MVP vs. July http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors5/vod/66109ForGG vs. July http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors7/vod/66572Now MVP did win that series but it was a rather bloody set with some extremely long games (If you've never seen that game on Meta, you should). MVP was clearly dominant, but aside from the bunker rush on Antiga, July didn't just roll over and die immediately. ForGG, on the other hand, completely managed to cripple July both games in his very first attack, and he didn't cheese or all-in doing it, either, he used a very small number of units to maximum effect and macroed up an even bigger attack behind it. I think July is a good reference point because as much as I am a fan of him, I feel like in recent months July's sc2 skill has remained constant while everyone else in Code S has either shot well beyond him, or was better than him to begin with. That's why I'm convinced ForGG is already one of the best at SC2, myself. MVP crushed July, but ForGG pulverized him. I imagine absolutely nobody is going to have the balls to pick him in group selection. This means that next season we have an almost 95% guarantee of seeing Leenock vs ForGG, who will be the poor sap stuck in group H on merit of getting 2nd place. If he beats Leenock, then I think there's no question anymore. MVP v July was from months ago, so IDK if that's the best comparison... Also, no one is underrating him, from what I can see, most people are just saying that 3 series against mid-tier pros are not the damning evidence we need to crown him the GoAT of SC2 yet. I watched him against July and he looked really good, sure, but also lucky. I want to see a nice Bo5 or a Bo7 against MVP, NesTea, Leenock, Jjakji, Oz, etc. before I make my predictions. That being said... dude is obviously legit.
Pretty much my thoughts exactly, take it slow people.
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On December 07 2011 08:25 canikizu wrote:
A pro BW plays SC2:
1. If he plays poorly, that's because he has passed his prime, blah blah blah
1. If he plays well, that's because he is, well, a BW pro and is destined to crush the current SC2 scene.
Either way, BW keeps its clean image.
Nada is a part time player in SC2 and for the longest time was regularly placing in the top 16 or better at almost every tournament.
On December 07 2011 08:50 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 08:46 Zanno wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think everyone who's trying to downplay this either didn't watch the vods or didn't watch them closely enough If you just look at a list of the players he beat to get into Code S it doesn't seem that impressive, that's true However, the reason I ForGG's rise so alarming, is how badly he roflstomped all these players As a comparison point, watch MVP vs July MVP vs. July http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors5/vod/66109ForGG vs. July http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors7/vod/66572Now MVP did win that series but it was a rather bloody set with some extremely long games (If you've never seen that game on Meta, you should). MVP was clearly dominant, but aside from the bunker rush on Antiga, July didn't just roll over and die immediately. ForGG, on the other hand, completely managed to cripple July both games in his very first attack, and he didn't cheese or all-in doing it, either, he used a very small number of units to maximum effect and macroed up an even bigger attack behind it. I think July is a good reference point because as much as I am a fan of him, I feel like in recent months July's sc2 skill has remained constant while everyone else in Code S has either shot well beyond him, or was better than him to begin with. That's why I'm convinced ForGG is already one of the best at SC2, myself. MVP crushed July, but ForGG pulverized him. I imagine absolutely nobody is going to have the balls to pick him in group selection. This means that next season we have an almost 95% guarantee of seeing Leenock vs ForGG, who will be the poor sap stuck in group H on merit of getting 2nd place. If he beats Leenock, then I think there's no question anymore. MVP v July was from months ago, so IDK if that's the best comparison... Also, no one is underrating him, from what I can see, most people are just saying that 3 series against mid-tier pros are not the damning evidence we need to crown him the GoAT of SC2 yet. I watched him against July and he looked really good, sure, but also lucky. I want to see a nice Bo5 or a Bo7 against MVP, NesTea, Leenock, Jjakji, Oz, etc. before I make my predictions. That being said... dude is obviously legit.
LOL.
PoltPrime is a GSL winner, and still regularly does well in most tournaments he plays in.
JulyZerg is a multiple GSL finalist.
Sage is the most underachieved and yet still is touted as one of the most talented Protoss prospects coming out of Korea.
Yeah.... mid tier pros. That would stomp the living shit out of 95% of the foreign pros.
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GUYS REMEMBER when DRG showed up to team league and crushed everyone to pieces? And then he did it again ? Same old story. ForGG looks crazy good no doubt, but 3 Code A games while a huge achievement is nothing to go by. You know who else did it ? Parting and Brown also beat top players some of whom are better (at the moment) than July or a Polt. You could talk about the "manner" in which they did it and how dominating ForGG was (he was it was embarrasing for his opponents) but the jury's still out sorry.
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
You all can see what BW does to people
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I don't see how you can like this dude if you play terran.
Nerf's inc...
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On December 07 2011 08:46 Zanno wrote:I think everyone who's trying to downplay this either didn't watch the vods or didn't watch them closely enough If you just look at a list of the players he beat to get into Code S it doesn't seem that impressive, that's true However, the reason I ForGG's rise so alarming, is how badly he roflstomped all these players As a comparison point, watch MVP vs July MVP vs. July http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors5/vod/66109ForGG vs. July http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors7/vod/66572Now MVP did win that series but it was a rather bloody set with some extremely long games (If you've never seen that game on Meta, you should). MVP was clearly dominant, but aside from the bunker rush on Antiga, July didn't just roll over and die immediately. ForGG, on the other hand, completely managed to cripple July both games in his very first attack, and he didn't cheese or all-in doing it, either, he used a very small number of units to maximum effect and macroed up an even bigger attack behind it. I think July is a good reference point because as much as I am a fan of him, I feel like in recent months July's sc2 skill has remained constant while everyone else in Code S has either shot well beyond him, or was better than him to begin with. That's why I'm convinced ForGG is already one of the best at SC2, myself. MVP crushed July, but ForGG pulverized him, then threw the remains into a blackhole and reduced July to a singularity. Also remember Polt was on the other side of this bracket in the RO4, who ForGG also roflstomped with relative ease. I imagine absolutely nobody is going to have the balls to pick him in group selection. This means that next season we have an almost 95% guarantee of seeing Leenock vs ForGG, who will be the poor sap stuck in group H on merit of getting 2nd place. If he beats Leenock, then I think there's no question anymore.
The problem with referencing anything from a GSL two seasons ago with a new game is just that, it's still a relatively new game (only 1 year? people were still 1 basing in professional BW one year into it's existence). Keep in mind that while ForGG's performance against July/Polt is impressive, keep in mind that Sage has yet to accomplish anything yet (and those games were nothing impressive to watch, 1 base coin flip build first game on Daybreak, and an allinish second game from ForGG with a "let's get every tech" build from Sage on Bel'Shir)
1. Polt has looked less than impressive since his Super Tournament wins. His most recent Code S appearance before falling to Code A was in a relatively weak looking group, consisting of (now champion Leenock, but we didn't know he would turn into a sick nerd baller this month especially), a decidedly unimpressive Ganzi, and the mediocre Terran with good TvT Ensnare.
2. July just has not looked like himself the past two GSLs, with early exits in each and extremely weird games (especially in his games in GSL November, wtf control?) and is looking like he is done with professional gaming once he hits his military service.
Yes, ForGG has shown some incredible multitasking, and his macro is in general pretty good, however, most of these top SC2 players have excellent macro (MVP, weirdly Jjakji, NesTea, etc.) while others have shown that less than excellent macro can be made up for with excellent control and decision making etc. (Leenock, HuK etc.). I am less than impressed, and watched his matches after these threads popping up. What stands out to you? His "perfect" MMM micro is hardly perfect, he spends his time dodging storms (like you should do) and hitting things WHEN HE CAN (like you also should do).
The main difference between him and the SC2 pros is that he comes from the A class and A team BW mentality which focuses on hard practice, whilst his SC2 counterparts are not in the same rigid environment. Small wonder ForGG has come along as far as he has in the short amount of time with his hard work and raw talent in RTS games.
TL;DR ForGG is hardly the most impressive thing I've seen in SC2, although he has clearly shown that the background in BW professional gaming gives him the practice edge to improve much more rapidly than the existing scene. I wish people would wait before posting these types of threads this quickly, he hasn't even come through Code A yet. Two seasons from now if he's still performing like he is, THEN can we get really hyped up?
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Yeah.... mid tier pros. That would stomp the living shit out of 95% of the foreign pros.
Yeah, mid tier pros. There are amazing Quarterbacks; better than almost every single other QB alive; and they get to the NFL and they find out that they are mid-tier pros. Best of the Best become mid-tier when they are paired with the Best of the Best of the Best.
PoltPrime is a GSL winner, and still regularly does well in most tournaments he plays in.
JulyZerg is a multiple GSL finalist.
We can turn this argument around you know? Boxer was the best BW player in the world at one time. I guess he can't be beat by anyone who isn't the absolute best of all time? Oh wait... months can mean a LOT. Just because you played real well a couple of months ago does not mean you are still top tier. They are in Code A for a reason.
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On December 07 2011 08:27 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 08:22 aintz wrote:
fin is definitely skillful you cannot deny that but lets not get hyped up too much. players who are good at bw should be good at sc2 but you cant just say one game takes more skill than the other.
All other things aside, the AI/pathing, no-auto harvest, 12 control group limit, etc...of BW are much harder things to deal with. So all other things equal (which idk if that's even true), BW is a harder game with more skill required. How is Sc2 just as high of a skill requirement as broodwar, when it is much easier to execute as a whole.
because its easier for both people and if there aren't limitations, they can do other things. For example multitasking in bw, the highest feeling was macroing their base and being at 2 places at once. Which some diamond level player are capable of. Means if you are good you will be able to be at 4 places at once.
As for forGG's success, its a playstyle the others weren't really used to, thats why he poofed through 3 differen races with ease, as they weren't really able to prepare, while their playstyle were well known. Added some underestimation and there you go.
MLG Dreamhack and all those weekender tournaments where foreigners and korean meet, are a good example of this, especially naniwa who likes to march through the tournament because of his unique micro style.
So don't overreact. its just the unknown factor.
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On December 07 2011 08:59 las91 wrote:
The problem with referencing anything from a GSL two seasons ago with a new game is just that, it's still a relatively new game (only 1 year? people were still 1 basing in professional BW one year into it's existence). Keep in mind that while ForGG's performance against July/Polt is impressive, keep in mind that Sage has yet to accomplish anything yet (and those games were nothing impressive to watch, 1 base coin flip build first game on Daybreak, and an allinish second game from ForGG with a "let's get every tech" build from Sage on Bel'Shir) see i don't actually agree with that
3 months ago is not an eternity and the metagame is developing slower than it used to, especially TvZ
There have only really been two major shifts that effect TvZ, and both them were the result of balance changes:
1) BFH nerf forced all terrans into reactor hellion openings at a time when it seemed either opening was viable
2) Gold bases are gone
TvP has undergone some major shifts, I will agree with you on that, so we really cannot base anything off of his game with Sage
That leaves polt, who has been struggling in TvT since the super tournament, and I feel it's not that he's fallen off mechanically, but rather his problem is that he keeps playing a TvT style that plain doesn't work now.
comparing gsl january to gsl march i see your point, but i think comparing gsl august to gsl november is fair
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Has been GM forever, it's not like he started recently. He might be awesome, he might not be, let's wait and see. The hype is way too big at this point, given he has played people who are in slumps or overhyped. Let's see him against someone who is legitimately top 5 at their race before we say anything. The only person who might be considered a top 20 player out of those 3 at the moment is Polt, but based off recent results that argument is difficult.
(MVP, Jjakji, MMA, Taeja, Supernova/Happy // MC, OZ, Puzzle, Hero, HuK // Nestea, DRG, Curious, Coca/Losira, Leenock)
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United States5797 Posts
On December 07 2011 09:05 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 08:27 ExO_ wrote:On December 07 2011 08:22 aintz wrote:
fin is definitely skillful you cannot deny that but lets not get hyped up too much. players who are good at bw should be good at sc2 but you cant just say one game takes more skill than the other.
All other things aside, the AI/pathing, no-auto harvest, 12 control group limit, etc...of BW are much harder things to deal with. So all other things equal (which idk if that's even true), BW is a harder game with more skill required. How is Sc2 just as high of a skill requirement as broodwar, when it is much easier to execute as a whole. because its easier for both people and if there aren't limitations, they can do other things. For example multitasking in bw, the highest feeling was macroing their base and being at 2 places at once. Which some diamond level player are capable of. Means if you are good you will be able to be at 4 places at once. As for forGG's success, its a playstyle the others weren't really used to, thats why he poofed through 3 differen races with ease, as they weren't really able to prepare, while their playstyle were well known. Added some underestimation and there you go. MLG Dreamhack and all those weekender tournaments where foreigners and korean meet, are a good example of this, especially naniwa who likes to march through the tournament because of his unique micro style. So don't overreact. its just the unknown factor.
Have you even watched BW? Seriously, if you're going to comment on stuff like this you should at least be familar with both games
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I'm excited for ForGG, but I'm also interested in Parting and Brown. Brown took out Ryung and Losira while Parting took out TOP, Clide, and Killer! Wow
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Quick timing pushes the current pros aren't watching for aren't all that exciting.
In the july match the 2nd game july was very close to taking him out. If you watch the last matches that Slayers_Boxer had in Code A with the Reaper/Hellion/Banshee push it looks very similar to ForGGs style. A blip in the meta game that will be figued out and hard countered.
I'll get on ForGGs bandwagon when I actually see him play a full game and not just a quick rush that his opponent misread.
Edit: The biggest thing people need to take into account. The GSL code S was VERY stagnet with the old model and there were MANY code S players that didn't belong there. The new model is allowing that to be cleaned out. This is why so many great names are losing, they should never have had been great but got there early and were able to get locked in. Looking at it from that angle may change the perception of ForGGs accomplishments.
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On December 07 2011 08:50 firehand101 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 04:54 gogogadgetflow wrote:"The way I play is to create a pattern where I have an advantage, and then crush my opponents with momentum. That way my opponent can’t play with 100% of his skill. That’s why I think mind-games are more important than skill."- iloveoov I'd describe his play as being more tactic-centric as compared to strategy-centric than we have been seeing from top players since beta This will be the case for all BW pros that switch, utter and unstoppable domination
So, in other words, all this nonsense about volatility dies once the Brood War players shift over en masse?
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On December 07 2011 08:54 Rebs wrote:
GUYS REMEMBER when DRG showed up to team league and crushed everyone to pieces? And then he did it again ? Same old story. ForGG looks crazy good no doubt, but 3 Code A games while a huge achievement is nothing to go by. You know who else did it ? Parting and Brown also beat top players some of whom are better (at the moment) than July or a Polt. You could talk about the "manner" in which they did it and how dominating ForGG was (he was it was embarrasing for his opponents) but the jury's still out sorry.
I wasn't that impressed early with DRG and he grew on me.
ForGG hasn't even nearly broke a sweat yet...
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dat smirk...
ez
User was warned for this post
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On December 07 2011 09:11 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 09:05 FeyFey wrote:On December 07 2011 08:27 ExO_ wrote:On December 07 2011 08:22 aintz wrote:
fin is definitely skillful you cannot deny that but lets not get hyped up too much. players who are good at bw should be good at sc2 but you cant just say one game takes more skill than the other.
All other things aside, the AI/pathing, no-auto harvest, 12 control group limit, etc...of BW are much harder things to deal with. So all other things equal (which idk if that's even true), BW is a harder game with more skill required. How is Sc2 just as high of a skill requirement as broodwar, when it is much easier to execute as a whole. because its easier for both people and if there aren't limitations, they can do other things. For example multitasking in bw, the highest feeling was macroing their base and being at 2 places at once. Which some diamond level player are capable of. Means if you are good you will be able to be at 4 places at once. As for forGG's success, its a playstyle the others weren't really used to, thats why he poofed through 3 differen races with ease, as they weren't really able to prepare, while their playstyle were well known. Added some underestimation and there you go. MLG Dreamhack and all those weekender tournaments where foreigners and korean meet, are a good example of this, especially naniwa who likes to march through the tournament because of his unique micro style. So don't overreact. its just the unknown factor. Have you even watched BW? Seriously, if you're going to comment on stuff like this you should at least be familar with both games
You did a terrible job of addressing his point by overlooking the fact that it was an example. He's essentially saying that the limitation caused by the difficult macro effected multitasking; as in the hallmark of a top BW player was the ability to macro flawlessly and be in X places at once with his multitasking. He then posits that since macro is easier in SC2, the hallmark of a good player will be that he'll have to be doing twice as much multitasking (and that easier macro will allow him to do so).
In that regard, I agree with him. This has been a long held belief of mine that
1) If you have perfect AI controlled machines controlling the action, then yes, the skill ceiling of BW is higher.
2) With human players, the skill ceiling of either game is out of reach and thus neither game is 'harder,' within the realms of what a human can attain. In other words, no person can ever be good enough at SC2 or BW to demonstrate that one is clearly harder. BW just happens to have over a decade of a headstart in development.
3) With the easier macro in SC2, more of a players mechanical ability will simply be diverted to other areas. Think of it like this. If the idea of 'skill' or mechanics were to be illustrated as 50% emphasis on micro / 50% emphasis on macro (a gross oversimplification) in BW, then SC2 may develop into more of a 65/35 split. The two games would be/will be equally taxing in two different proportions.
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On December 07 2011 08:05 JL_GG wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 07:59 Rikke wrote:
omg OVERRATED! This guy has won like 3 games vs mediocre players, stop the hype kiddies! MSL champion bro? He beat a golden mouse winner and super tournament champion mediocore? u ez them rofl?
Doesn't matter what he did 5years ago in a different game lolz! If he wins the next 2 GSLs we can talk again 
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EPT
