EPTWhy Fin looks like one of the best in sc2 already - Page 10
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MrMercuG
Netherlands2389 Posts
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Termit
Sweden3466 Posts
On December 07 2011 07:46 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Well balls. I was hoping that these BW guys didn't make everyone look like idiots but it seems they already are. Now I'm actually worried about the state of foreigners in SC2 if more of these monsters come over. Also I don't like that he plays Terran. Why can't he just revolutionize protoss? lol by the end of 2012 or early 2013 the foreign scene will be like BW except some hardworking foreigners staying in Korea now already. It may be hastily written and all, but really what do we have against the korean players practicing now already and the current BW progamers switching if everything goes like it has been said about kespa switching to sc2 and all the talk about alot of the players practicing/gonna practice sc2? People may not like this but really, could you tell me then how things would work out for the foreign pros? | ||
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TheBomb
237 Posts
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EllipZ
France378 Posts
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haegN
Norway533 Posts
On December 07 2011 08:13 TheBomb wrote: Welcome to Brood War world where skill is trully important and its not fake lucky play as we've seen so far in SC2. cool beans. You sir, are an idiot. | ||
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MonkSEA
Australia1227 Posts
I say his the same as all the current SC2 pro's that played brood war and switched to SC2, and my evidence that his the same is that his been playing for just under a year, the exact same or a little shorter as all these other bw players that switched to SC2, like July, MVP and NaDa. I don't think his any different from these BW A-teamers, and from what I've seen he relies on the dominant early Terran aggression in most of his games. I don't think you can call him one of the best, and at the same time I don't think you can compare him to current BW players who might switch to SC2. | ||
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HardMacro
Canada361 Posts
On December 07 2011 04:50 mothergoose729 wrote: In his games against Sage, he showcased probably the best marine/maurader micro that sc2 has ever seen, showing an incredible ability, in game 2, to micro continually while keeping his minerals and gas below 400 the entire time. I don't want to sound elitist at all although I will, but that's as standard as it gets for BW pros, and more or less standard among top SC2 players. Forgg is the most established and successful BW pro to have transferred over to SC2, followed by MvP so it's no surprise that his skills acquired from his A class BW status is dominating the SC2 scene, where he faces players with no previous RTS experience, WC3 players, and B teamers. If anything, 400/400 is still quite a bit of resource. I have FULL confidence, that when the TBLS or other true S class BW players switch over, we're going to see perfect macro from these players until mid-late game, and close to perfect macro in the late game. I mean, if it's impressive to have the multitask required to macro efficiency while constantly microing for SC2 with the help of MBS, automine, etc., then any A class BW pro that does the same in a much harder game should be called Gods. But then we'd have no name to call Flash;) Edit: On December 07 2011 08:20 MonkSEA wrote: I don't think you can say he 'demolished' July. July bane busted him, which is a coin flip if you win or not. And the first game, 2 rax is incredibly strong even after tons of rax and bunker nerfs. I say his the same as all the current SC2 pro's that played brood war and switched to SC2, and my evidence that his the same is that his been playing for just under a year, the exact same or a little shorter as all these other bw players that switched to SC2, like July, MVP and NaDa. I don't think his any different from these BW A-teamers, and from what I've seen he relies on the dominant early Terran aggression in most of his games. I don't think you can call him one of the best, and at the same time I don't think you can compare him to current BW players who might switch to SC2. I just have to clear up this misconception, again. The ONLY other A-teamer to have switched over to SC2 other than ForGG is MvP, and you could argue that even when he did he wasn't a "solid" A-teamer as he only occasionally played games and wasn't part of the regular lineup, which is probably the reason he switched in the first place. Nada, July, Boxer, etc. are B-teamers who switched over. Sure, they were not just A-class, but S-class at their prime, but that was almost a decade ago. When they switched over, they were B-teamers; they could no longer compete with the younger players (slight exception is Nada, where his skills/results were obviously deteriorating but he still made the occasional RO32 and won the occasional proleague match, whereas the other 2 players pretty much stopped appearing on televised games). Then you get the eternal B-teamers that switched with the likes of Zergbong (Nestea) and Iron (MC). So in a way, this is the first time that a true A-class BW pro switched over to SC2, who was part of the regular lineup of the champion BW team KT and was actually recognized by fans. On top of that, he has his Code A perfect result to show his promise. So I don't know why you're so negative, because I sure as hell can't wait to watch him tear shit up, because believe me, he will. | ||
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mothergoose729
United States666 Posts
On December 07 2011 07:48 inamorato wrote: I appreciate the write up and his 3 game run is undeniable. Also the recognition of a good Brood War coming from a face whose never played the game or followed it earns my respect. However some of the statements in this thread are just absurd. It is ANYTHING but easy to suggest that ForGG has the best Micro Starcraft 2 has ever seen, and is insulting to players who've accomplished much more than himself in terms of accomplishments, rewards, and respect. You're analysis of the games are sub par at best. This isn't a personal attack it is more of me pointing out blasphemy. Again with fin dispalying the best Marine Marauder micro Starcraft 2 has ever seen. In game one vs Sage he proxy 2 gated all in. His micro was fantastic that's is irrefutable. However if you noticed some of the major factors in the game like the 3 hit point SCV finishing the bunker that was bar none, the game ending event. Mind you this is around 5 and a half minutes into the game meaning he is capable of having a max of 10 marines. 10 marine with scv buffer vs a teaspoon of zealots although good micro is nothing that Brood War or Star 2 have yet to witness. Game 2 he 4 rax starport off of 2 base and then threw down another 4 rax before even taking a third. Due to Sage not scouting he was obviously going to be behind in army count. If Sage had been more informed, prepared properly it would have gone 3 games. His storm micro was almost non existent. As far as 13 minute Starcraft 2 law defying mech attack, well its anything but that. But he outplayed polt in game 1 with great banshee micro simultaneous non stop macro. Games against July were sub par. Two words that I believe fit JulyZergs play as of recent. The unorthodox strategy in game one was keeping his opponent off balance by forcing him to make units while hard countering him, AFTER he already had done significant damage. Game 2 he saved the game by raising a supply depot. There's nothing amazing about that. He has a great sense of the game and his mechanics are very good. Just don't jump the gun, he hasn't accomplished anything significant yet, and believe me I'm rooting for him. Although I'm impressed, I know that every one of his skills are matched, nullified, and surpassed by top tier players. Overall, I like the passion included in your write up, but don't let emotion take priority over your intellect when it comes to a thread. Good points, all valid criticisms. My attempt with this thread was to high light specifics of his play that were really good. I stand by my statement before that the micro he displayed in those games was the best micro I have seen in any other sc2 games. Its great that a lot of people don't agree with me though. There is certainly a lot of good micro to compare that too. What I wanted to point out the most, and what I think a lot of people picked up on, is that he played starcraft differently in those games then most players, and it looked really promising. I would like to see him play like that in code S and I believe that style could take him far. It is certainly not a forgone conclusion he will win a GSL. I will be more shocked if he wins the next season then if he does poorly. I am hopeful he does well and expect to see lots more of him in the future. | ||
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
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L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
On December 07 2011 08:11 Termit wrote: lol by the end of 2012 or early 2013 the foreign scene will be like BW except some hardworking foreigners staying in Korea now already. It may be hastily written and all, but really what do we have against the korean players practicing now already and the current BW progamers switching if everything goes like it has been said about kespa switching to sc2 and all the talk about alot of the players practicing/gonna practice sc2? People may not like this but really, could you tell me then how things would work out for the foreign pros? They aren't practicing sc2. I think there was a period where they tried it out in the off season because they didn't know the direction kespa wanted to take it, but teams now are 100% focused on proleague. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
1. If he plays poorly, that's because he has passed his prime, blah blah blah 1. If he plays well, that's because he is, well, a BW pro and is destined to crush the current SC2 scene. Either way, BW keeps its clean image. | ||
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ExO_
United States2316 Posts
On December 07 2011 08:22 aintz wrote: fin is definitely skillful you cannot deny that but lets not get hyped up too much. players who are good at bw should be good at sc2 but you cant just say one game takes more skill than the other. All other things aside, the AI/pathing, no-auto harvest, 12 control group limit, etc...of BW are much harder things to deal with. So all other things equal (which idk if that's even true), BW is a harder game with more skill required. How is Sc2 just as high of a skill requirement as broodwar, when it is much easier to execute as a whole. | ||
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unkkz
Norway2196 Posts
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Sina92
Sweden1303 Posts
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MasterBlasterCaster
United States568 Posts
AMAZING!!!! /sarcasm | ||
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chenchen
United States1136 Posts
On December 07 2011 08:25 canikizu wrote: A pro BW plays SC2: 1. If he plays poorly, that's because he has passed his prime, blah blah blah 1. If he plays well, that's because he is, well, a BW pro and is destined to crush the current SC2 scene. Either way, BW keeps its clean image. Your logic fails pretty hard. A BW pro plays SC2. It is BECAUSE that he is old and past his prime, that he does not succeed. Nevertheless, several BW pros past their prime such as Boxer, Nada, and July, have had limited success in SC2. A statement is not logically equivalent to its converse. A fireman comes save the burning house because there was a fire. The converse is clearly not true . . . . firemen saving houses do not cause fires. A BW pro with recent success in BW plays SC2 and demonstrates dominance (forGG, MVP, Puma probably the best to switch over), because he was successful at BW. | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
BONJWAAAAAAA lol. No doubt he's good enough for code S but there is no point in obsessing over someone being "BETTER THAN EVERYONE" unless he actually wins something. | ||
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Zanno
United States1484 Posts
If you just look at a list of the players he beat to get into Code S it doesn't seem that impressive, that's true However, the reason I ForGG's rise so alarming, is how badly he roflstomped all these players As a comparison point, watch MVP vs July MVP vs. July http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors5/vod/66109 ForGG vs. July http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors7/vod/66572 Now MVP did win that series but it was a rather bloody set with some extremely long games (If you've never seen that game on Meta, you should). MVP was clearly dominant, but aside from the bunker rush on Antiga, July didn't just roll over and die immediately. ForGG, on the other hand, completely managed to cripple July both games in his very first attack, and he didn't cheese or all-in doing it, either, he used a very small number of units to maximum effect and macroed up an even bigger attack behind it. I think July is a good reference point because as much as I am a fan of him, I feel like in recent months July's sc2 skill has remained constant while everyone else in Code S has either shot well beyond him, or was better than him to begin with. That's why I'm convinced ForGG is already one of the best at SC2, myself. MVP crushed July, but ForGG pulverized him, then threw the remains into a blackhole and reduced July to a singularity. Also remember Polt was on the other side of this bracket in the RO4, who ForGG also roflstomped with relative ease. I imagine absolutely nobody is going to have the balls to pick him in group selection. This means that next season we have an almost 95% guarantee of seeing Leenock vs ForGG, who will be the poor sap stuck in group H on merit of getting 2nd place. If he beats Leenock, then I think there's no question anymore. Edit: I just skimmed the antiga game to refresh my memory and I forgot MVP did a double proxy that game. So basically in order to reach comparable levels of humiliation against July, MVP had to double proxy right in his face, whereas ForGG built one barracks at the edge of his main's cliff. This just reenforces the point about relative destruction I was trying to make. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
On December 07 2011 08:25 canikizu wrote: A pro BW plays SC2: 1. If he plays poorly, that's because he has passed his prime, blah blah blah 1. If he plays well, that's because he is, well, a BW pro and is destined to crush the current SC2 scene. Either way, BW keeps its clean image. Name a BW pro who plays Sc2 poorly? July,MVP,Nestea,boxer,nada,MC all have achieved Code S (pretty sure all have got to top 4 if I'm not mistaken), all have placed well at MLG events, all are a threat to get top 4 in any tournament they enter. So which former BW pro's are you referring to? Unless not getting 1st place at GSL or MLG equals playing poorly in your mind. Keep in mind that of these players, the ones that haven't placed first (Boxer, Nada, July) got top 2 finishes in BW OSL's and MSL's years apart. They all had slumps and rose back up. NEVER count them out and to say they play poorly is just ignorant. They have their slumps but who doesn't? They are ALL excellent SC2 players. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
holy crap. first time tl.net put a smile on my face longer than 5 seconds. | ||
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