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On December 24 2011 05:38 Zinjil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 05:31 Talin wrote:On December 24 2011 05:18 Hardigan wrote:On December 24 2011 05:06 Talin wrote:On December 23 2011 22:43 Hardigan wrote:On December 23 2011 19:44 Velr wrote:
Why don't people get it?
EG is "hated" because they are the rich kid.
Like Bayern München in the german football league.
Like Real Madrid in all of football.
.
.
.
There are tons of examples of rich teams that "buy" ther wins (actually they are just improving their chances of winning buy spending more money than anyone else). This does not fly good with many people (like me). But this is no reason to insult EG or call their Team bad, it's not a bad team. It's a bought Team that would look terrible whiteout it's money but well... They got the funds so... You mean EG is the only Team that buys players? hm.. I sure can name other teams that do the same.... like every professional Team out there.. (exept grubby, whitra). And you think they don't train there players? What about the EG Lair and the EG-Slayers practise agreement? shit.. i should't actually respond to these kind of trollbaits. If you are incapable of reading what you're responding to, it is for the best that you do not respond at all. What Velr was trying to point out is that the amount of money they spend is clearly heavily disproportionate to the amount of money other teams spend (or have available). Which goes to say that the only reason they stay competitive as a team is because they're able to completely overkill anything other teams can offer. If this playing field was even slightly more fair/even, they would struggle to be a top NA team, let alone compete on a global level. what do you mean by more fair? EG has a long history in esport, like col, sk, etc. They worked for what they have now, the money didn't fall from the sky. They earned it. If they are more succesful now because of it, why should it be unfair? And what do you mean by "completetly overkill anything other teams can offer"? That's how the market works. How should it work different? They didn't earn their success nor build their reputation in Starcraft, so it doesn't matter where else they earned it. Isn't this a ridiculous standard to hold teams to? Other than liquid, what foreign teams DID build their reputation in starcraft? Col didn't, afaik mouz didn't, aren't most of the Korean sc2 teams too new to have built a reputation with BW? I mean, FoU was a clan, but now they're FXO anyway. I'm not sure why it's ok to expect this of EG and not of anyone else.
All of the Korean teams started from basically zero in SC2 and built up what they have, it doesn't need to be BW. The most successful of them, SlayerS, started out later than others and actually limited their recruitment to ONLY teamless players for a long time, and Boxer in no way abused his influence and marketability to get his team to instant #1 (which he could easily have done). They were considered the weakest team in Korea for a while, then their players that nobody ever heard of before started coming through, and now they are the strongest team.
Most of the Korean teams are the same, and most of them aren't that good financially (or they certainly weren't when they started out). They couldn't attract the best players with fat contracts alone, they all started out basically as a group of friends and worked their way up. That is the sort of natural progression I'm talking about.
There aren't that many native foreign Starcraft teams because foreign BW was never big and because western esports is honestly messed up (and has always been messed up). Even the teams that started off great couldn't live for long in that environment. Root was the best NA team in 2010 when it comes to the all-round roster, but instead of them getting the sponsorship that they actually earned for building up a great team, their players were slowly picked off by others and then Complexity rounded up the rest.
Obviously it's a very high standard, but it is only right that the teams who approach Starcraft this way are considered more respectable and universally liked than the teams on the other extreme end.
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On December 24 2011 05:37 flagg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 01:42 cutler wrote:On December 23 2011 21:14 perestain wrote:
BTW which player from mouz has a history of being bm? They all appear to be very positive examples in terms of sportsmanship... did I miss something? My bad...of course Hasu is a nice guy...i totally forgot about him and Thorzain. They are both mannered. Especially Hasu. :-) In case of BM...i am sorry...this has nothing to do with OP. So i wont add it here. That more or less leave Mana and Morrow as the BM players :D Good trolling sir!
hmm i follow thorzain, mana and hasuobs pretty frequently and never seen any of those 3 act even slightly bad mannered. closest one was thorzain making a giant GG out of mules but i don't think anyone would consider that bm... donno about morrow or bigs though. i've seen strelok bm but he's out of mouz for a long time.
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Players worked hard to be good at their game and get paid the most.
EG worked hard to get sponsorships and marketing to pay the most.
The two met over mutually working hard and money.
Where is the problem with this? All the negative commentary seems related to money but isn't addressing that both the players on EG have worked their asses off to earn their pay grade and EG management has busted their asses to make a brand worth so much to investors/sponsers/etc. Hard work pays off and people are griping about it as unfair?
This is capitalism (SPARTA!) not communism. If you want the paycheck or the players that demand it, work your ass off for it. Dont degrade a team for building a functioning synergy that awards both sides of the deal.
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On December 24 2011 05:59 Synwave wrote:
This is capitalism
Ah, capitalism.
And just like everywhere else, it has negative long term consequences in esports as well. Actually, capitalism and the related mindset was in a way the downfall of other potentially big western esports.
When you look at the way that the only long term functional esport is structured, the corporate sponsors actually work together to ensure that the in-game competition is the best it can possibly be. Which is what is really behind the longevity of BW.
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SELF
OWNAGE
lol Mouz is so epic
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On December 24 2011 05:50 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 05:38 Zinjil wrote:On December 24 2011 05:31 Talin wrote:On December 24 2011 05:18 Hardigan wrote:On December 24 2011 05:06 Talin wrote:On December 23 2011 22:43 Hardigan wrote:On December 23 2011 19:44 Velr wrote:
Why don't people get it?
EG is "hated" because they are the rich kid.
Like Bayern München in the german football league.
Like Real Madrid in all of football.
.
.
.
There are tons of examples of rich teams that "buy" ther wins (actually they are just improving their chances of winning buy spending more money than anyone else). This does not fly good with many people (like me). But this is no reason to insult EG or call their Team bad, it's not a bad team. It's a bought Team that would look terrible whiteout it's money but well... They got the funds so... You mean EG is the only Team that buys players? hm.. I sure can name other teams that do the same.... like every professional Team out there.. (exept grubby, whitra). And you think they don't train there players? What about the EG Lair and the EG-Slayers practise agreement? shit.. i should't actually respond to these kind of trollbaits. If you are incapable of reading what you're responding to, it is for the best that you do not respond at all. What Velr was trying to point out is that the amount of money they spend is clearly heavily disproportionate to the amount of money other teams spend (or have available). Which goes to say that the only reason they stay competitive as a team is because they're able to completely overkill anything other teams can offer. If this playing field was even slightly more fair/even, they would struggle to be a top NA team, let alone compete on a global level. what do you mean by more fair? EG has a long history in esport, like col, sk, etc. They worked for what they have now, the money didn't fall from the sky. They earned it. If they are more succesful now because of it, why should it be unfair? And what do you mean by "completetly overkill anything other teams can offer"? That's how the market works. How should it work different? They didn't earn their success nor build their reputation in Starcraft, so it doesn't matter where else they earned it. Isn't this a ridiculous standard to hold teams to? Other than liquid, what foreign teams DID build their reputation in starcraft? Col didn't, afaik mouz didn't, aren't most of the Korean sc2 teams too new to have built a reputation with BW? I mean, FoU was a clan, but now they're FXO anyway. I'm not sure why it's ok to expect this of EG and not of anyone else. All of the Korean teams started from basically zero in SC2 and built up what they have, it doesn't need to be BW.
Except we aren't asking abour Korean teams, we are asking about foreign teams.
Remember most of us don't share the Broodwar mindset of Korea being more important then Rest.
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On December 24 2011 05:50 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 05:38 Zinjil wrote:On December 24 2011 05:31 Talin wrote:On December 24 2011 05:18 Hardigan wrote:On December 24 2011 05:06 Talin wrote:On December 23 2011 22:43 Hardigan wrote:On December 23 2011 19:44 Velr wrote:
Why don't people get it?
EG is "hated" because they are the rich kid.
Like Bayern München in the german football league.
Like Real Madrid in all of football.
.
.
.
There are tons of examples of rich teams that "buy" ther wins (actually they are just improving their chances of winning buy spending more money than anyone else). This does not fly good with many people (like me). But this is no reason to insult EG or call their Team bad, it's not a bad team. It's a bought Team that would look terrible whiteout it's money but well... They got the funds so... You mean EG is the only Team that buys players? hm.. I sure can name other teams that do the same.... like every professional Team out there.. (exept grubby, whitra). And you think they don't train there players? What about the EG Lair and the EG-Slayers practise agreement? shit.. i should't actually respond to these kind of trollbaits. If you are incapable of reading what you're responding to, it is for the best that you do not respond at all. What Velr was trying to point out is that the amount of money they spend is clearly heavily disproportionate to the amount of money other teams spend (or have available). Which goes to say that the only reason they stay competitive as a team is because they're able to completely overkill anything other teams can offer. If this playing field was even slightly more fair/even, they would struggle to be a top NA team, let alone compete on a global level. what do you mean by more fair? EG has a long history in esport, like col, sk, etc. They worked for what they have now, the money didn't fall from the sky. They earned it. If they are more succesful now because of it, why should it be unfair? And what do you mean by "completetly overkill anything other teams can offer"? That's how the market works. How should it work different? They didn't earn their success nor build their reputation in Starcraft, so it doesn't matter where else they earned it. Isn't this a ridiculous standard to hold teams to? Other than liquid, what foreign teams DID build their reputation in starcraft? Col didn't, afaik mouz didn't, aren't most of the Korean sc2 teams too new to have built a reputation with BW? I mean, FoU was a clan, but now they're FXO anyway. I'm not sure why it's ok to expect this of EG and not of anyone else. All of the Korean teams started from basically zero in SC2 and built up what they have, it doesn't need to be BW. The most successful of them, SlayerS, started out later than others and actually limited their recruitment to ONLY teamless players for a long time, and Boxer in no way abused his influence and marketability to get his team to instant #1 (which he could easily have done). They were considered the weakest team in Korea for a while, then their players that nobody ever heard of before started coming through, and now they are the strongest team. Most of the Korean teams are the same, and most of them aren't that good financially (or they certainly weren't when they started out). They couldn't attract the best players with fat contracts alone, they all started out basically as a group of friends and worked their way up. That is the sort of natural progression I'm talking about. There aren't that many native foreign Starcraft teams because foreign BW was never big and because western esports is honestly messed up (and has always been messed up). Even the teams that started off great couldn't live for long in that environment. Root was the best NA team in 2010 when it comes to the all-round roster, but instead of them getting the sponsorship that they actually earned for building up a great team, their players were slowly picked off by others and then Complexity rounded up the rest. Obviously it's a very high standard, but it is only right that the teams who approach Starcraft this way are considered more respectable and universally liked than the teams on the other extreme end.
Problem is, EG shouldn't be in your list of "teams on the other extreme end" considering they at least have a history of sponsoring RTS players with their wc3 team, and their initial set of recruitment in sc2 was entirely about rewarding strong, experienced players with strong bonds between them. That they have added stronger players since isn't something different than what slayers have done, with clide, puzzle, coca, and an absolute slew of other players having come from other clans. There are literally 0 teams that are not "guilty" of this using your criteria, there are no teams who have gone about recruiting only unknowns and continued doing that after they got big.
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This can only be settled, through a rap battle!
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On December 24 2011 06:20 Zinjil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 05:50 Talin wrote:On December 24 2011 05:38 Zinjil wrote:On December 24 2011 05:31 Talin wrote:On December 24 2011 05:18 Hardigan wrote:On December 24 2011 05:06 Talin wrote:On December 23 2011 22:43 Hardigan wrote:On December 23 2011 19:44 Velr wrote:
Why don't people get it?
EG is "hated" because they are the rich kid.
Like Bayern München in the german football league.
Like Real Madrid in all of football.
.
.
.
There are tons of examples of rich teams that "buy" ther wins (actually they are just improving their chances of winning buy spending more money than anyone else). This does not fly good with many people (like me). But this is no reason to insult EG or call their Team bad, it's not a bad team. It's a bought Team that would look terrible whiteout it's money but well... They got the funds so... You mean EG is the only Team that buys players? hm.. I sure can name other teams that do the same.... like every professional Team out there.. (exept grubby, whitra). And you think they don't train there players? What about the EG Lair and the EG-Slayers practise agreement? shit.. i should't actually respond to these kind of trollbaits. If you are incapable of reading what you're responding to, it is for the best that you do not respond at all. What Velr was trying to point out is that the amount of money they spend is clearly heavily disproportionate to the amount of money other teams spend (or have available). Which goes to say that the only reason they stay competitive as a team is because they're able to completely overkill anything other teams can offer. If this playing field was even slightly more fair/even, they would struggle to be a top NA team, let alone compete on a global level. what do you mean by more fair? EG has a long history in esport, like col, sk, etc. They worked for what they have now, the money didn't fall from the sky. They earned it. If they are more succesful now because of it, why should it be unfair? And what do you mean by "completetly overkill anything other teams can offer"? That's how the market works. How should it work different? They didn't earn their success nor build their reputation in Starcraft, so it doesn't matter where else they earned it. Isn't this a ridiculous standard to hold teams to? Other than liquid, what foreign teams DID build their reputation in starcraft? Col didn't, afaik mouz didn't, aren't most of the Korean sc2 teams too new to have built a reputation with BW? I mean, FoU was a clan, but now they're FXO anyway. I'm not sure why it's ok to expect this of EG and not of anyone else. All of the Korean teams started from basically zero in SC2 and built up what they have, it doesn't need to be BW. The most successful of them, SlayerS, started out later than others and actually limited their recruitment to ONLY teamless players for a long time, and Boxer in no way abused his influence and marketability to get his team to instant #1 (which he could easily have done). They were considered the weakest team in Korea for a while, then their players that nobody ever heard of before started coming through, and now they are the strongest team. Most of the Korean teams are the same, and most of them aren't that good financially (or they certainly weren't when they started out). They couldn't attract the best players with fat contracts alone, they all started out basically as a group of friends and worked their way up. That is the sort of natural progression I'm talking about. There aren't that many native foreign Starcraft teams because foreign BW was never big and because western esports is honestly messed up (and has always been messed up). Even the teams that started off great couldn't live for long in that environment. Root was the best NA team in 2010 when it comes to the all-round roster, but instead of them getting the sponsorship that they actually earned for building up a great team, their players were slowly picked off by others and then Complexity rounded up the rest. Obviously it's a very high standard, but it is only right that the teams who approach Starcraft this way are considered more respectable and universally liked than the teams on the other extreme end. Problem is, EG shouldn't be in your list of "teams on the other extreme end" considering they at least have a history of sponsoring RTS players with their wc3 team, and their initial set of recruitment in sc2 was entirely about rewarding strong, experienced players with strong bonds between them. That they have added stronger players since isn't something different than what slayers have done, with clide, puzzle, coca, and an absolute slew of other players having come from other clans. There are literally 0 teams that are not "guilty" of this using your criteria, there are no teams who have gone about recruiting only unknowns and continued doing that after they got big.
There was a lot of drama/backlash involved with the ZeNEX players moving to Slayers in the Korean scene as well if I remember correctly. But the point is they built their team from completely unknown, teamless players and those same players still form the backbone of their team. Arguably Coca, Clide and Puzzle only add to the depth of the team rather than define it.
Moreover, Slayers is also attractive to any Korean player because they have a real pro team structure and a proper training environment - not because of the salary alone. I'm pretty sure a lot of Korean players would join the Slayers house for free (initially at least).
Anyway, it's not a binary criteria and obviously nobody is completely innocent or completely guilty. I'm not even against such teams, I just dislike them. And for as much as I'm concerned, the more people dislike them, the better. Seeing that they thrive on popularity, the negative reputation should serve as a deterrent or at least encourage them to spend their resources in a different way rather than over-inflating player salaries just to get ahead of others.
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On December 24 2011 06:35 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 06:20 Zinjil wrote:On December 24 2011 05:50 Talin wrote:On December 24 2011 05:38 Zinjil wrote:On December 24 2011 05:31 Talin wrote:On December 24 2011 05:18 Hardigan wrote:On December 24 2011 05:06 Talin wrote:On December 23 2011 22:43 Hardigan wrote:On December 23 2011 19:44 Velr wrote:
Why don't people get it?
EG is "hated" because they are the rich kid.
Like Bayern München in the german football league.
Like Real Madrid in all of football.
.
.
.
There are tons of examples of rich teams that "buy" ther wins (actually they are just improving their chances of winning buy spending more money than anyone else). This does not fly good with many people (like me). But this is no reason to insult EG or call their Team bad, it's not a bad team. It's a bought Team that would look terrible whiteout it's money but well... They got the funds so... You mean EG is the only Team that buys players? hm.. I sure can name other teams that do the same.... like every professional Team out there.. (exept grubby, whitra). And you think they don't train there players? What about the EG Lair and the EG-Slayers practise agreement? shit.. i should't actually respond to these kind of trollbaits. If you are incapable of reading what you're responding to, it is for the best that you do not respond at all. What Velr was trying to point out is that the amount of money they spend is clearly heavily disproportionate to the amount of money other teams spend (or have available). Which goes to say that the only reason they stay competitive as a team is because they're able to completely overkill anything other teams can offer. If this playing field was even slightly more fair/even, they would struggle to be a top NA team, let alone compete on a global level. what do you mean by more fair? EG has a long history in esport, like col, sk, etc. They worked for what they have now, the money didn't fall from the sky. They earned it. If they are more succesful now because of it, why should it be unfair? And what do you mean by "completetly overkill anything other teams can offer"? That's how the market works. How should it work different? They didn't earn their success nor build their reputation in Starcraft, so it doesn't matter where else they earned it. Isn't this a ridiculous standard to hold teams to? Other than liquid, what foreign teams DID build their reputation in starcraft? Col didn't, afaik mouz didn't, aren't most of the Korean sc2 teams too new to have built a reputation with BW? I mean, FoU was a clan, but now they're FXO anyway. I'm not sure why it's ok to expect this of EG and not of anyone else. All of the Korean teams started from basically zero in SC2 and built up what they have, it doesn't need to be BW. The most successful of them, SlayerS, started out later than others and actually limited their recruitment to ONLY teamless players for a long time, and Boxer in no way abused his influence and marketability to get his team to instant #1 (which he could easily have done). They were considered the weakest team in Korea for a while, then their players that nobody ever heard of before started coming through, and now they are the strongest team. Most of the Korean teams are the same, and most of them aren't that good financially (or they certainly weren't when they started out). They couldn't attract the best players with fat contracts alone, they all started out basically as a group of friends and worked their way up. That is the sort of natural progression I'm talking about. There aren't that many native foreign Starcraft teams because foreign BW was never big and because western esports is honestly messed up (and has always been messed up). Even the teams that started off great couldn't live for long in that environment. Root was the best NA team in 2010 when it comes to the all-round roster, but instead of them getting the sponsorship that they actually earned for building up a great team, their players were slowly picked off by others and then Complexity rounded up the rest. Obviously it's a very high standard, but it is only right that the teams who approach Starcraft this way are considered more respectable and universally liked than the teams on the other extreme end. Problem is, EG shouldn't be in your list of "teams on the other extreme end" considering they at least have a history of sponsoring RTS players with their wc3 team, and their initial set of recruitment in sc2 was entirely about rewarding strong, experienced players with strong bonds between them. That they have added stronger players since isn't something different than what slayers have done, with clide, puzzle, coca, and an absolute slew of other players having come from other clans. There are literally 0 teams that are not "guilty" of this using your criteria, there are no teams who have gone about recruiting only unknowns and continued doing that after they got big. There was a lot of drama/backlash involved with the ZeNEX players moving to Slayers in the Korean scene as well if I remember correctly. But the point is they built their team from completely unknown, teamless players and those same players still form the backbone of their team. Arguably Coca, Clide and Puzzle only add to the depth of the team rather than define it. Moreover, Slayers is also attractive to any Korean player because they have a real pro team structure and a proper training environment - not because of the salary alone. I'm pretty sure a lot of Korean players would join the Slayers house for free (initially at least). Anyway, it's not a binary criteria and obviously nobody is completely innocent or completely guilty. I'm not even against such teams, I just dislike them. And for as much as I'm concerned, the more people dislike them, the better. Seeing that they thrive on popularity, the negative reputation should serve as a deterrent or at least encourage them to spend their resources in a different way rather than over-inflating player salaries just to get ahead of others.
EG is the foreign team with the closest facsimile to the Korean model of training with their house in Arizona, they convinced some of their sponsors to also sponsor djWHEAT's shows, thereby making the team also one of the largest content producers in the scene, as well as one of the most successful ingame, and the one most closely mirroring the Korean practice style. That they can afford to do all this as well as pay their players very well shouldn't be something detrimental.
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On December 24 2011 06:35 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 06:20 Zinjil wrote:On December 24 2011 05:50 Talin wrote:On December 24 2011 05:38 Zinjil wrote:On December 24 2011 05:31 Talin wrote:On December 24 2011 05:18 Hardigan wrote:On December 24 2011 05:06 Talin wrote:On December 23 2011 22:43 Hardigan wrote:On December 23 2011 19:44 Velr wrote:
Why don't people get it?
EG is "hated" because they are the rich kid.
Like Bayern München in the german football league.
Like Real Madrid in all of football.
.
.
.
There are tons of examples of rich teams that "buy" ther wins (actually they are just improving their chances of winning buy spending more money than anyone else). This does not fly good with many people (like me). But this is no reason to insult EG or call their Team bad, it's not a bad team. It's a bought Team that would look terrible whiteout it's money but well... They got the funds so... You mean EG is the only Team that buys players? hm.. I sure can name other teams that do the same.... like every professional Team out there.. (exept grubby, whitra). And you think they don't train there players? What about the EG Lair and the EG-Slayers practise agreement? shit.. i should't actually respond to these kind of trollbaits. If you are incapable of reading what you're responding to, it is for the best that you do not respond at all. What Velr was trying to point out is that the amount of money they spend is clearly heavily disproportionate to the amount of money other teams spend (or have available). Which goes to say that the only reason they stay competitive as a team is because they're able to completely overkill anything other teams can offer. If this playing field was even slightly more fair/even, they would struggle to be a top NA team, let alone compete on a global level. what do you mean by more fair? EG has a long history in esport, like col, sk, etc. They worked for what they have now, the money didn't fall from the sky. They earned it. If they are more succesful now because of it, why should it be unfair? And what do you mean by "completetly overkill anything other teams can offer"? That's how the market works. How should it work different? They didn't earn their success nor build their reputation in Starcraft, so it doesn't matter where else they earned it. Isn't this a ridiculous standard to hold teams to? Other than liquid, what foreign teams DID build their reputation in starcraft? Col didn't, afaik mouz didn't, aren't most of the Korean sc2 teams too new to have built a reputation with BW? I mean, FoU was a clan, but now they're FXO anyway. I'm not sure why it's ok to expect this of EG and not of anyone else. All of the Korean teams started from basically zero in SC2 and built up what they have, it doesn't need to be BW. The most successful of them, SlayerS, started out later than others and actually limited their recruitment to ONLY teamless players for a long time, and Boxer in no way abused his influence and marketability to get his team to instant #1 (which he could easily have done). They were considered the weakest team in Korea for a while, then their players that nobody ever heard of before started coming through, and now they are the strongest team. Most of the Korean teams are the same, and most of them aren't that good financially (or they certainly weren't when they started out). They couldn't attract the best players with fat contracts alone, they all started out basically as a group of friends and worked their way up. That is the sort of natural progression I'm talking about. There aren't that many native foreign Starcraft teams because foreign BW was never big and because western esports is honestly messed up (and has always been messed up). Even the teams that started off great couldn't live for long in that environment. Root was the best NA team in 2010 when it comes to the all-round roster, but instead of them getting the sponsorship that they actually earned for building up a great team, their players were slowly picked off by others and then Complexity rounded up the rest. Obviously it's a very high standard, but it is only right that the teams who approach Starcraft this way are considered more respectable and universally liked than the teams on the other extreme end. Problem is, EG shouldn't be in your list of "teams on the other extreme end" considering they at least have a history of sponsoring RTS players with their wc3 team, and their initial set of recruitment in sc2 was entirely about rewarding strong, experienced players with strong bonds between them. That they have added stronger players since isn't something different than what slayers have done, with clide, puzzle, coca, and an absolute slew of other players having come from other clans. There are literally 0 teams that are not "guilty" of this using your criteria, there are no teams who have gone about recruiting only unknowns and continued doing that after they got big. I'm not even against such teams, I just dislike them. And for as much as I'm concerned, the more people dislike them, the better. Seeing that they thrive on popularity, the negative reputation should serve as a deterrent or at least encourage them to spend their resources in a different way rather than over-inflating player salaries just to get ahead of others.
Like flying their players to events around the world? Or repeatedly hosting team leagues with a good production value and full time commentators? How about sponsoring a weekly show open to the community hosted by none other the DjWheat? Or sponsoring Barcrafts? Maybe even taking the huge step of opening a team house?
Edit: Ninja'ed by Zinjil I see. 
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On December 24 2011 06:51 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 06:35 Talin wrote:On December 24 2011 06:20 Zinjil wrote:On December 24 2011 05:50 Talin wrote:On December 24 2011 05:38 Zinjil wrote:On December 24 2011 05:31 Talin wrote:On December 24 2011 05:18 Hardigan wrote:On December 24 2011 05:06 Talin wrote:On December 23 2011 22:43 Hardigan wrote:On December 23 2011 19:44 Velr wrote:
Why don't people get it?
EG is "hated" because they are the rich kid.
Like Bayern München in the german football league.
Like Real Madrid in all of football.
.
.
.
There are tons of examples of rich teams that "buy" ther wins (actually they are just improving their chances of winning buy spending more money than anyone else). This does not fly good with many people (like me). But this is no reason to insult EG or call their Team bad, it's not a bad team. It's a bought Team that would look terrible whiteout it's money but well... They got the funds so... You mean EG is the only Team that buys players? hm.. I sure can name other teams that do the same.... like every professional Team out there.. (exept grubby, whitra). And you think they don't train there players? What about the EG Lair and the EG-Slayers practise agreement? shit.. i should't actually respond to these kind of trollbaits. If you are incapable of reading what you're responding to, it is for the best that you do not respond at all. What Velr was trying to point out is that the amount of money they spend is clearly heavily disproportionate to the amount of money other teams spend (or have available). Which goes to say that the only reason they stay competitive as a team is because they're able to completely overkill anything other teams can offer. If this playing field was even slightly more fair/even, they would struggle to be a top NA team, let alone compete on a global level. what do you mean by more fair? EG has a long history in esport, like col, sk, etc. They worked for what they have now, the money didn't fall from the sky. They earned it. If they are more succesful now because of it, why should it be unfair? And what do you mean by "completetly overkill anything other teams can offer"? That's how the market works. How should it work different? They didn't earn their success nor build their reputation in Starcraft, so it doesn't matter where else they earned it. Isn't this a ridiculous standard to hold teams to? Other than liquid, what foreign teams DID build their reputation in starcraft? Col didn't, afaik mouz didn't, aren't most of the Korean sc2 teams too new to have built a reputation with BW? I mean, FoU was a clan, but now they're FXO anyway. I'm not sure why it's ok to expect this of EG and not of anyone else. All of the Korean teams started from basically zero in SC2 and built up what they have, it doesn't need to be BW. The most successful of them, SlayerS, started out later than others and actually limited their recruitment to ONLY teamless players for a long time, and Boxer in no way abused his influence and marketability to get his team to instant #1 (which he could easily have done). They were considered the weakest team in Korea for a while, then their players that nobody ever heard of before started coming through, and now they are the strongest team. Most of the Korean teams are the same, and most of them aren't that good financially (or they certainly weren't when they started out). They couldn't attract the best players with fat contracts alone, they all started out basically as a group of friends and worked their way up. That is the sort of natural progression I'm talking about. There aren't that many native foreign Starcraft teams because foreign BW was never big and because western esports is honestly messed up (and has always been messed up). Even the teams that started off great couldn't live for long in that environment. Root was the best NA team in 2010 when it comes to the all-round roster, but instead of them getting the sponsorship that they actually earned for building up a great team, their players were slowly picked off by others and then Complexity rounded up the rest. Obviously it's a very high standard, but it is only right that the teams who approach Starcraft this way are considered more respectable and universally liked than the teams on the other extreme end. Problem is, EG shouldn't be in your list of "teams on the other extreme end" considering they at least have a history of sponsoring RTS players with their wc3 team, and their initial set of recruitment in sc2 was entirely about rewarding strong, experienced players with strong bonds between them. That they have added stronger players since isn't something different than what slayers have done, with clide, puzzle, coca, and an absolute slew of other players having come from other clans. There are literally 0 teams that are not "guilty" of this using your criteria, there are no teams who have gone about recruiting only unknowns and continued doing that after they got big. I'm not even against such teams, I just dislike them. And for as much as I'm concerned, the more people dislike them, the better. Seeing that they thrive on popularity, the negative reputation should serve as a deterrent or at least encourage them to spend their resources in a different way rather than over-inflating player salaries just to get ahead of others. Like flying their players to events around the world? Or repeatedly hosting team leagues with a good production value and full time commentators? How about sponsoring a weekly show open to the community hosted by none other the DjWheat? Or sponsoring Barcrafts? Maybe even taking the huge step of opening a team house? Edit: Ninja'ed by Zinjil I see.
It's ok, I completely forgot about the EGMCS, that's another good thing they do for the community :D
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honestly until team leagues become more of the man event, which currently they are not, teams like eg stacking the deck are irrelevant. It's not like gsl october or w/e it was with 3/4 terrans, team kill matches can actually be more exiting because of the excessive meta-gaming.
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team leagues will become more interesting when player will earn higher saleries and become more expensive for the teams. blub just a thought.
i like team battles only between a handful teams like TL, EG, aTn, mouz, etc... till now.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On December 24 2011 06:57 Zinjil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 06:51 TheButtonmen wrote:On December 24 2011 06:35 Talin wrote:On December 24 2011 06:20 Zinjil wrote:On December 24 2011 05:50 Talin wrote:On December 24 2011 05:38 Zinjil wrote:On December 24 2011 05:31 Talin wrote:On December 24 2011 05:18 Hardigan wrote:On December 24 2011 05:06 Talin wrote:On December 23 2011 22:43 Hardigan wrote:
[quote]
You mean EG is the only Team that buys players? hm.. I sure can name other teams that do the same.... like every professional Team out there.. (exept grubby, whitra).
And you think they don't train there players? What about the EG Lair and the EG-Slayers practise agreement?
shit.. i should't actually respond to these kind of trollbaits. If you are incapable of reading what you're responding to, it is for the best that you do not respond at all. What Velr was trying to point out is that the amount of money they spend is clearly heavily disproportionate to the amount of money other teams spend (or have available). Which goes to say that the only reason they stay competitive as a team is because they're able to completely overkill anything other teams can offer. If this playing field was even slightly more fair/even, they would struggle to be a top NA team, let alone compete on a global level. what do you mean by more fair? EG has a long history in esport, like col, sk, etc. They worked for what they have now, the money didn't fall from the sky. They earned it. If they are more succesful now because of it, why should it be unfair? And what do you mean by "completetly overkill anything other teams can offer"? That's how the market works. How should it work different? They didn't earn their success nor build their reputation in Starcraft, so it doesn't matter where else they earned it. Isn't this a ridiculous standard to hold teams to? Other than liquid, what foreign teams DID build their reputation in starcraft? Col didn't, afaik mouz didn't, aren't most of the Korean sc2 teams too new to have built a reputation with BW? I mean, FoU was a clan, but now they're FXO anyway. I'm not sure why it's ok to expect this of EG and not of anyone else. All of the Korean teams started from basically zero in SC2 and built up what they have, it doesn't need to be BW. The most successful of them, SlayerS, started out later than others and actually limited their recruitment to ONLY teamless players for a long time, and Boxer in no way abused his influence and marketability to get his team to instant #1 (which he could easily have done). They were considered the weakest team in Korea for a while, then their players that nobody ever heard of before started coming through, and now they are the strongest team. Most of the Korean teams are the same, and most of them aren't that good financially (or they certainly weren't when they started out). They couldn't attract the best players with fat contracts alone, they all started out basically as a group of friends and worked their way up. That is the sort of natural progression I'm talking about. There aren't that many native foreign Starcraft teams because foreign BW was never big and because western esports is honestly messed up (and has always been messed up). Even the teams that started off great couldn't live for long in that environment. Root was the best NA team in 2010 when it comes to the all-round roster, but instead of them getting the sponsorship that they actually earned for building up a great team, their players were slowly picked off by others and then Complexity rounded up the rest. Obviously it's a very high standard, but it is only right that the teams who approach Starcraft this way are considered more respectable and universally liked than the teams on the other extreme end. Problem is, EG shouldn't be in your list of "teams on the other extreme end" considering they at least have a history of sponsoring RTS players with their wc3 team, and their initial set of recruitment in sc2 was entirely about rewarding strong, experienced players with strong bonds between them. That they have added stronger players since isn't something different than what slayers have done, with clide, puzzle, coca, and an absolute slew of other players having come from other clans. There are literally 0 teams that are not "guilty" of this using your criteria, there are no teams who have gone about recruiting only unknowns and continued doing that after they got big. I'm not even against such teams, I just dislike them. And for as much as I'm concerned, the more people dislike them, the better. Seeing that they thrive on popularity, the negative reputation should serve as a deterrent or at least encourage them to spend their resources in a different way rather than over-inflating player salaries just to get ahead of others. Like flying their players to events around the world? Or repeatedly hosting team leagues with a good production value and full time commentators? How about sponsoring a weekly show open to the community hosted by none other the DjWheat? Or sponsoring Barcrafts? Maybe even taking the huge step of opening a team house? Edit: Ninja'ed by Zinjil I see. It's ok, I completely forgot about the EGMCS, that's another good thing they do for the community :D
The EG bashing is insane, they are being held to ridiculous standards that no other team is expected to. They spend more money and effort developing their talent than any other foreign team.
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haha! nice work from both sides
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On December 24 2011 07:22 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 06:57 Zinjil wrote:On December 24 2011 06:51 TheButtonmen wrote:On December 24 2011 06:35 Talin wrote:On December 24 2011 06:20 Zinjil wrote:On December 24 2011 05:50 Talin wrote:On December 24 2011 05:38 Zinjil wrote:On December 24 2011 05:31 Talin wrote:On December 24 2011 05:18 Hardigan wrote:On December 24 2011 05:06 Talin wrote:
[quote]
If you are incapable of reading what you're responding to, it is for the best that you do not respond at all.
What Velr was trying to point out is that the amount of money they spend is clearly heavily disproportionate to the amount of money other teams spend (or have available).
Which goes to say that the only reason they stay competitive as a team is because they're able to completely overkill anything other teams can offer. If this playing field was even slightly more fair/even, they would struggle to be a top NA team, let alone compete on a global level. what do you mean by more fair? EG has a long history in esport, like col, sk, etc. They worked for what they have now, the money didn't fall from the sky. They earned it. If they are more succesful now because of it, why should it be unfair? And what do you mean by "completetly overkill anything other teams can offer"? That's how the market works. How should it work different? They didn't earn their success nor build their reputation in Starcraft, so it doesn't matter where else they earned it. Isn't this a ridiculous standard to hold teams to? Other than liquid, what foreign teams DID build their reputation in starcraft? Col didn't, afaik mouz didn't, aren't most of the Korean sc2 teams too new to have built a reputation with BW? I mean, FoU was a clan, but now they're FXO anyway. I'm not sure why it's ok to expect this of EG and not of anyone else. All of the Korean teams started from basically zero in SC2 and built up what they have, it doesn't need to be BW. The most successful of them, SlayerS, started out later than others and actually limited their recruitment to ONLY teamless players for a long time, and Boxer in no way abused his influence and marketability to get his team to instant #1 (which he could easily have done). They were considered the weakest team in Korea for a while, then their players that nobody ever heard of before started coming through, and now they are the strongest team. Most of the Korean teams are the same, and most of them aren't that good financially (or they certainly weren't when they started out). They couldn't attract the best players with fat contracts alone, they all started out basically as a group of friends and worked their way up. That is the sort of natural progression I'm talking about. There aren't that many native foreign Starcraft teams because foreign BW was never big and because western esports is honestly messed up (and has always been messed up). Even the teams that started off great couldn't live for long in that environment. Root was the best NA team in 2010 when it comes to the all-round roster, but instead of them getting the sponsorship that they actually earned for building up a great team, their players were slowly picked off by others and then Complexity rounded up the rest. Obviously it's a very high standard, but it is only right that the teams who approach Starcraft this way are considered more respectable and universally liked than the teams on the other extreme end. Problem is, EG shouldn't be in your list of "teams on the other extreme end" considering they at least have a history of sponsoring RTS players with their wc3 team, and their initial set of recruitment in sc2 was entirely about rewarding strong, experienced players with strong bonds between them. That they have added stronger players since isn't something different than what slayers have done, with clide, puzzle, coca, and an absolute slew of other players having come from other clans. There are literally 0 teams that are not "guilty" of this using your criteria, there are no teams who have gone about recruiting only unknowns and continued doing that after they got big. I'm not even against such teams, I just dislike them. And for as much as I'm concerned, the more people dislike them, the better. Seeing that they thrive on popularity, the negative reputation should serve as a deterrent or at least encourage them to spend their resources in a different way rather than over-inflating player salaries just to get ahead of others. Like flying their players to events around the world? Or repeatedly hosting team leagues with a good production value and full time commentators? How about sponsoring a weekly show open to the community hosted by none other the DjWheat? Or sponsoring Barcrafts? Maybe even taking the huge step of opening a team house? Edit: Ninja'ed by Zinjil I see. It's ok, I completely forgot about the EGMCS, that's another good thing they do for the community :D The EG bashing is insane, they are being held to ridiculous standards that no other team is expected to. They spend more money and effort developing their talent than any other foreign team.
Don't forget the community as well, the only team that has put as much money and effort into developing the community as them is as far as I can tell FXO's work in SEA but I'm not too familiar with that scene to really say for sure.
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On December 24 2011 06:15 Talin wrote:Ah, capitalism. And just like everywhere else, it has negative long term consequences in esports as well. Actually, capitalism and the related mindset was in a way the downfall of other potentially big western esports. When you look at the way that the only long term functional esport is structured, the corporate sponsors actually work together to ensure that the in-game competition is the best it can possibly be. Which is what is really behind the longevity of BW.
Because the longevity of broodwar ISNT capitalism...
In the words of John Stewart "really??"
You do realize that broodwar is entirely based on and has been extended by capitalism right? It wouldn't have been here in any other economic structure you care to name. By all means state how it would be, in theory, because facts care to differ.
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On December 24 2011 06:32 Kuja wrote:
This can only be settled, through a rap battle!
aww yeaaaah
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EPT
