EPT[October] TLPD Race Winrate Graphs - Page 21
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On November 07 2011 20:17 Sated wrote: Clearly not. Look at the graphs. The game should be balanced for the highest level of play, not scrubs like me. You wouldn't say that if it were the other way around (Protoss hard to play on ladder but doing great in code S). At some point, they also have to think about the 99,99% of people who play this game. If they buff Protoss further a lot of people, including myself, will start to get really angry. | ||
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Ktk
Korea (South)753 Posts
Next patch is going to nerf TvP but I don't know how much it'll hurt TvZ as well, if TvZ is so close to 50% with the current emp radius vs infestors I don't know how the nerf's gonna hit TvZ. TvP it'll indeed do nothing but good in the pro tiers but for people on the ladder, this could mean TvP will be [some degree between a little to a lot] harder for the average player. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On November 07 2011 19:04 Snowbear wrote: For me it is very simple. I look at the tournaments page (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues ) and I look at the grandmaster stats: EU Grandmaster: - Protoss 32.5% (64) - Terran 24.4% (48) - Zerg 43.1% (85) Korea: Grandmaster: - Protoss: 39.5% (75) - Terran: 35.8% (68) - Zerg: 24.2% (46) America: Grandmaster: - Protoss: 36.1% (65) - Terran: 27.8% (50) - Zerg: 33.3% (60) Terran is definately imbalanced ;d You really think ladder is more important than tournaments for determining balance? | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
On November 07 2011 20:48 Ktk wrote: So if you guys take this graph for what it means I guess zergs don't little to complain about T OP if they're winning an egregious percentage of ZvPs, as in, much more than TvPs and TvZs. In fact, that has been going on for two months now unchecked, it seems. We'll see what happens as the new patch kicks in. TvZ in numbers looks even enough. Next patch is going to nerf TvP but I don't know how much it'll hurt TvZ as well, if TvZ is so close to 50% with the current emp radius vs infestors I don't know how the nerf's gonna hit TvZ. TvP it'll indeed do nothing but good in the pro tiers but for people on the ladder, this could mean TvP will be [some degree between a little to a lot] harder for the average player. Well if the next patch is identical to whats on PTR, you can expect more devastating 1/2 timing pushes from Protoss. The ghost nerf i am not sure about, i still think Blizz should have left it at 150 gas. Protoss at the moment seen to be stuck on the Fast Expand mentality and its becoming predictable, although from what i have seen recently the meta game is changing to a more aggressive stance. | ||
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
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Sellerie
Germany2 Posts
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On November 07 2011 20:41 MilesTeg wrote: You wouldn't say that if it were the other way around (Protoss hard to play on ladder but doing great in code S). Nice baseless assertion/ad hominem attack there, meant to discredit an argument without tackling it directly. On November 07 2011 20:41 MilesTeg wrote: At some point, they also have to think about the 99,99% of people who play this game. At the level you play at, balance doesn't mean shit. You can solve the balance problem by just playing more and getting better. I can guarantee that any problems you have in any match-up can be solved by something simple - if you were good enough that you didn't make stupid mistakes, you would be in GM/Code S too. On November 07 2011 20:41 MilesTeg wrote: If they buff Protoss further a lot of people, including myself, will start to get really angry. Oh no - we wouldn't want you to get offended, now? And I find it ignorant/heavily biased that you call it "further". Blizzard has been ridiculously inconsistent since release in buffing, say, Zerg, and nerfing, say, Protoss. Terran's nerfs have been minimal, while Protoss has had tons of important ones, crippling the race when there was no need to: David Kim was having an off day, it seems, and decided he didn't like playing vs Protoss. | ||
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xuanzue
Colombia1747 Posts
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Tsubbi
Germany7996 Posts
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dooraven
Australia2820 Posts
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Klystron
United States99 Posts
The problem is that most ZvP's boil down to a FFE into double stargate, 6-8 gate, stargate into 6-8gate, or stargate into 2-base robo. These openings have been used for months now and most zerg players know the timings and exactly how to counter these plays. On top of that Zerg players have discovered that Protoss players haven't figured out how to deal with mutas yet. I don't think that protoss lacks any ability to counter mutas, in fact they have some of the best counters to mutas in the game. The problem is that they don't quite know how to effectively split their army, when to start putting down cannons, how many cannons they need, and that colossi are not good against mutas. Once protoss players start to get a feel for the timings and the required responses to mutas I have a feeling that muta play in ZvP will largely disappear. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On November 07 2011 21:38 Klystron wrote: On top of that Zerg players have discovered that Protoss players haven't figured out how to deal with mutas yet. I don't think that protoss lacks any ability to counter mutas, in fact they have some of the best counters to mutas in the game. The problem is that they don't quite know how to effectively split their army, when to start putting down cannons, how many cannons they need, and that colossi are not good against mutas. Once protoss players start to get a feel for the timings and the required responses to mutas I have a feeling that muta play in ZvP will largely disappear. Having just watched HerO vs Crazymoving, I can safely say that you are wrong about everything here except the first sentence - and the reason for that is there isn't a way to "deal with" mutas unless your opponent makes a massive mistake. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On November 07 2011 21:08 Sellerie wrote: 810 matches for 6 different matchups. That results in 135 games per matchup. Not that many games in my opinion. Furthermore I didn't consider that races are probably not absolutely equally distributed. This will lead to an even smaller database. It's not just one month, the win rates have been trending this way for months and with bigger sample sizes in previous months. | ||
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ReaperX
Hong Kong1758 Posts
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On November 07 2011 20:52 tomatriedes wrote: You really think ladder is more important than tournaments for determining balance? No, that's exactly why I also linked the tournament page  | ||
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Qntc.YuMe
United States792 Posts
I honestly think we should see graphs wat "phase" of the game the win rates are for each matchup. Like for example, first 12 minutes of game = PvZ 60% win rate while 13-24 minutes of game = PvZ 40% win rate. I think that can show us if its early game timing attacks/all ins that is the source of problem of the winning and losing or the late game. | ||
Exarian
Poland58 Posts
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GhostFall
United States830 Posts
On November 07 2011 22:12 OpTiKDream wrote: Its strange because the recent patches nerf terran and zerg and buff protoss yet the graphs showing worse for protoss. I honestly think we should see graphs wat "phase" of the game the win rates are for each matchup. Like for example, first 12 minutes of game = PvZ 60% win rate while 13-24 minutes of game = PvZ 40% win rate. I think that can show us if its early game timing attacks/all ins that is the source of problem of the winning and losing or the late game. that's a really good idea. All that would be needed to do is to add a time field into TLPD, so that when a win is recorded, a time can also be recorded. Then people can pull that info and split everything correctly. | ||
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