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On November 07 2011 16:59 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 16:42 SniXSniPe wrote:On November 07 2011 16:34 LoneWolf.Alpha- wrote:On November 07 2011 13:43 MyLastSerenade wrote:On November 07 2011 10:57 Lewan72 wrote:
Guys its cuz terran players are just better. one of the few true posts here.... didnt david kim said in an interview that the problem isnt really the balance, it is that so many really skilled players play terran, and not p or z? wow... if he really said this, then that makes me rage... Name the BW pros that switched over as P. Name the ones that are playing Z. Name the ones that are playing T. You'll see a much larger difference in numbers, as well as which race has the most successful players to switch over (in BW). So it's kind of true in a way. Lol yeah it isn't even close Terran: MVP, Puma, Supernova, Ganzi, Nada, Boxer, MMA, Bomber, theSTC, Rainbow, fOrGG Zerg: Nestea, July, Fruitdealer, TheWind, Junwi Protoss: MC, Sangho, Puzzle, Tester Terran outclasses Zerg and Protoss in both quality and quantity.
u just named the ones off of ur head. rainbow played protoss in bw also
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On November 07 2011 16:42 SniXSniPe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 16:34 LoneWolf.Alpha- wrote:On November 07 2011 13:43 MyLastSerenade wrote:On November 07 2011 10:57 Lewan72 wrote:
Guys its cuz terran players are just better. one of the few true posts here.... didnt david kim said in an interview that the problem isnt really the balance, it is that so many really skilled players play terran, and not p or z? wow... if he really said this, then that makes me rage... Name the BW pros that switched over as P. Name the ones that are playing Z. Name the ones that are playing T. You'll see a much larger difference in numbers, as well as which race has the most successful players to switch over (in BW). So it's kind of true in a way.
No, the problem is for blizzard that terran is the strongest... but only in korea. Everywhere else terrans are weaker/even, in fact could you name foreign pros who are one of best and play terran? We could name some like jinro, thorzain, kas, strelok, demuslim, sjow etc. but the ones who won recent tournaments are two zergs and protoss (idra, stephano and huk). Back to Korea, I don't think you could name even one protoss and say he's top5 sc2 korean player, toss can barely get into code s so you don't really know how to aproach this situation at all, it is more of this that better and talented players play terran in korea or just terran is imba and if so why we don't see this trend go everywhere else around the globe. Blizzard also said that they have to balance game from top to bottom, they can't just look at code s and nerf terran based on that, they must also see this on other levels of play, especially at gm/master level in europe or na. What would they said to all these people when they would balance the game based on result of code s? STOP COMPLAINING AND LEARN TO PLAY? ;D
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On November 07 2011 17:20 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 16:55 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 16:50 karlkarlson wrote:On November 07 2011 16:41 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 16:35 Trsjnica wrote:
Pretty insane that ZvT has *always* been Terran-favored, every single month since the game's release. Yea its crazy, especially since terran has been nerfed the most out of all the races. The idea that terran players are just better might have some truth to it. this is straight up nonsense. the people with the best sense of game balance AND the most accurate statistics, (blizzard) CONTINUE to feel terran is overpowered. one day they'll fire David Kim ( who plays T ) and hire an unbiased lead balance architect... LOL, David Kim plays random fyi, and terran has been constantly nerfed every patch. Even with the nerfs, terrans are still the strongest race. The only reason I can see why terrans are still dominating is that terrans are simply better. Terrans simply better, just took them a year and a half to start using blue flame hellions which had been unchanged, and ghosts, which some people even said received a nerf from the original cost since "terran is so mineral intensive". Lol. They'll continue to be nerfed as well if the statistics don't even out.
It is true that at the very top, Terran does have more players that are considered good than the other two races, but you are looking at something like 5-10~ people. That is barely enough to influence graphs like these by very much.
Not to mention even though Terran have been nerfed, nothing they have received is even on the same magnitude as the nerfs the other races have gotten i.e complete removal of Flux Vanes/K.Amulet
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Man PVZ is worse than PVT now, i knew both where bad but this new resurgence of muta ling is pretty hard to deal with, i think that has something to do with it.
I was only around diamond when i played protoss (play zerg now in plat) but i always found muta ling incredibly hard to stop and wondered why more zergs didnt use it (this was months ago) honestly when a zerg goes mass spine at the begining to stop 6 gate into muta ling there is almoost nothing you can do once they get enough mutas out, they just mass expand for the win. Im glad i play zerg mostly now :D
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On November 07 2011 17:26 dashmode wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 16:42 SniXSniPe wrote:On November 07 2011 16:34 LoneWolf.Alpha- wrote:On November 07 2011 13:43 MyLastSerenade wrote:On November 07 2011 10:57 Lewan72 wrote:
Guys its cuz terran players are just better. one of the few true posts here.... didnt david kim said in an interview that the problem isnt really the balance, it is that so many really skilled players play terran, and not p or z? wow... if he really said this, then that makes me rage... Name the BW pros that switched over as P. Name the ones that are playing Z. Name the ones that are playing T. You'll see a much larger difference in numbers, as well as which race has the most successful players to switch over (in BW). So it's kind of true in a way. No, the problem is for blizzard that terran is the strongest... but only in korea. Everywhere else terrans are weaker/even, in fact could you name foreign pros who are one of best and play terran? We could name some like jinro, thorzain, kas, strelok, demuslim, sjow etc. but the ones who won recent tournaments are two zergs and protoss (idra, stephano and huk). Back to Korea, I don't think you could name even one protoss and say he's top5 sc2 korean player, toss can barely get into code s so you don't really know how to aproach this situation at all, it is more of this that better and talented players play terran in korea or just terran is imba and if so why we don't see this trend go everywhere else around the globe. Blizzard also said that they have to balance game from top to bottom, they can't just look at code s and nerf terran based on that, they must also see this on other levels of play, especially at gm/master level in europe or na. What would they said to all these people when they would balance the game based on result of code s? STOP COMPLAINING AND LEARN TO PLAY? ;D
Considering that these graphs include both korean and international data, and the amount of games played in korea is siginifcantly less on a monthly basis (so much so that the author of these graphs stopped seperating korea as their were so little games that 1 player winning the GSL could influence the korea only graphs siginificantly) i doubt korean winrates effect this graph in a very meaningful way to be honest.
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On November 07 2011 17:20 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 16:55 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 16:50 karlkarlson wrote:On November 07 2011 16:41 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 16:35 Trsjnica wrote:
Pretty insane that ZvT has *always* been Terran-favored, every single month since the game's release. Yea its crazy, especially since terran has been nerfed the most out of all the races. The idea that terran players are just better might have some truth to it. this is straight up nonsense. the people with the best sense of game balance AND the most accurate statistics, (blizzard) CONTINUE to feel terran is overpowered. one day they'll fire David Kim ( who plays T ) and hire an unbiased lead balance architect... LOL, David Kim plays random fyi, and terran has been constantly nerfed every patch. Even with the nerfs, terrans are still the strongest race. The only reason I can see why terrans are still dominating is that terrans are simply better. Terrans simply better, just took them a year and a half to start using blue flame hellions which had been unchanged, and ghosts, which some people even said received a nerf from the original cost since "terran is so mineral intensive". Lol. They'll continue to be nerfed as well if the statistics don't even out.
He's saying that statistics can only show much. If this game is indeed about skill, rather than race, it's statistically more probable that one or two races are going to have more top players. Right now it's pretty apparent there are more korean terrans and zergs at the top because they are better than korean protosses. Likewise, there are a lot more top foreigner zergs and protosses because foreign terrans are pretty lacking in skill except for a few. There comes a point when you have to stop nerfing and tell the players losing to step it up. Otherwise it's just helping bad players because they play a different race.
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On November 07 2011 17:06 Gheed wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 17:00 Topdoller wrote:
I wish the mod would lock or delete this thread, for 3 reasons
1. All it does is promote balance whine and QQ.
2. It has nothing to do with the current state of the game. Tournaments don't play on the current ladder map pool, so the results dont reflect 99.9% of total games played
3. HOTS will be here soon 1. So come up with something constructive to say instead of whining yourself. 2. That is not the purpose of the information being presented. It is clearly intended only as a representation of professional level play, not ladder matches. Whether any meaningful conclusions can be drawn for it is debatable. 3. Soom(tm) edit: lol
I am not whining , the game is balanced
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looks balanced to me! 43% win rate for pvz has a nice ring to it
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On November 07 2011 04:42 mordk wrote:
I'd like to see the korean TLPD stats apart from international. I have a feeling Protoss fares a lot better on foreigner tournaments than on korean ones.
I really dont think the korean winrates effect the graph very much, considering that the reason he merged the 2 graphs a few months ago was because their was too little data for the information to be meaningful. Like i said above one person winning the GSL could significantly effect winrates of the korean graph.
I beleive it was only 200 or so games played every month before. Now with the korean weekly though i could imagine it being double that or so.
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On November 07 2011 17:23 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 16:59 red4ce wrote:On November 07 2011 16:42 SniXSniPe wrote:On November 07 2011 16:34 LoneWolf.Alpha- wrote:On November 07 2011 13:43 MyLastSerenade wrote:On November 07 2011 10:57 Lewan72 wrote:
Guys its cuz terran players are just better. one of the few true posts here.... didnt david kim said in an interview that the problem isnt really the balance, it is that so many really skilled players play terran, and not p or z? wow... if he really said this, then that makes me rage... Name the BW pros that switched over as P. Name the ones that are playing Z. Name the ones that are playing T. You'll see a much larger difference in numbers, as well as which race has the most successful players to switch over (in BW). So it's kind of true in a way. Lol yeah it isn't even close Terran: MVP, Puma, Supernova, Ganzi, Nada, Boxer, MMA, Bomber, theSTC, Rainbow, fOrGG Zerg: Nestea, July, Fruitdealer, TheWind, Junwi Protoss: MC, Sangho, Puzzle, Tester Terran outclasses Zerg and Protoss in both quality and quantity. u just named the ones off of ur head. rainbow played protoss in bw also
Off the top of my head, you're missing Genius for protoss, Ace for protoss, squirtle for protoss. MKP for Terran. Inca for protoss. DRG for zerg. Losira for zerg. I think all of TSL were former BW pros.
I'm not 100 percent sure of this, but I think the majority of professional Starcraft 2 players on a Korean team right now were also on a BW professional team and switched over. In fact, if we're talking about one of the older teams, IM, TSL, OGS, Prime, I am actually pretty confident we have a lot of players of all races switching over from BW
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On November 07 2011 17:39 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 17:06 Gheed wrote:On November 07 2011 17:00 Topdoller wrote:
I wish the mod would lock or delete this thread, for 3 reasons
1. All it does is promote balance whine and QQ.
2. It has nothing to do with the current state of the game. Tournaments don't play on the current ladder map pool, so the results dont reflect 99.9% of total games played
3. HOTS will be here soon 1. So come up with something constructive to say instead of whining yourself. 2. That is not the purpose of the information being presented. It is clearly intended only as a representation of professional level play, not ladder matches. Whether any meaningful conclusions can be drawn for it is debatable. 3. Soom(tm) edit: lol I am not whining , the game is balanced
Oh good grief, no it's actually not. No one that knows anything is claiming that it's balanced
Again, please try to make your silly reasonless case to these pros:
IMMVP 'I think the 1-1-1 should make you be disqualified from GSL.' Basically he's saying that terrans are OP but what part of the 1-1-1 that is OP is left to the imagination.
PoltPrime 'Many of these terrans are in Code S because the race is OP so I will knock them out.' So here Polt Prime is saying that terran is easier to win with basically. You have an easier time beating protoss or zerg players as terran.
EGDeMuslim 'I can't believe that Blizzard isn't looking at the ghost. I mean they nerfed rax build time by 5 seconds but they didn't look at the ghost. Greg (IdrA) keeps telling me to use ghosts more, and I have. Now I know why he thinks they need to be changed.' So EGDeMuslim is kinda hinting at the fact that ghosts should be looked at by Blizzard. This was in SotG episode 50 or 51.
WhiteRa 'I think the ghost have too many good spells. I think they do too good with everything protoss make and I think they need to be looked at by Blizzard. Too many good spells.' So WhiteRa the guy that popularized the statement More GG More Skill is saying that he thinks ghosts are a bit too good at the moment.
Huk 'I wish I played Terran.' This was also in a SotG episode where HuK says that playing terran seems to be a bigger benefit than playing protoss. His reasonings for why terran is a better choice for pro players isn't given but he feels being terran would help him.
IMNesTea 'Everyone knows that terran is much easier than zerg. If he didn't play terran he wouldn't have won so many championships. If I played terran I'd have won a lot more, if he played zerg I don't think he'd win.' This is NesTea talking about his teammate who after the match, looked depressed about winning.
FruitDealer 'You can't beat terran with this s*@$ race! This game is broken!' I hope you can figure out what he said. And maybe figure out why he said this.
oGsMC, 'Protoss is weak right now against terran.' Typically when one race is weaker than other we call that imbalanced. Maybe not though, maybe you can spin this.
Bisu 'Who would ever play that game? I hear it's terran favored. If protoss is so weak why even have them in the game? Just get rid of them. If I had to play it though, I would still pick protoss though.'
LiquidTLO 'Look how easy this race is. You build some rax and make marines. Don't stop making marines and keep pushing. It's not very hard. I stayed with terran because it's much easier.' I think he's saying it's easier to win with terran than zerg or protoss. Just a guess. He stated this on his stream one time.
IdrA and iNcontrol have said lots of things on terran being OP but you can disregard everything they said. IrdA is actually pretty smart and doesn't want to see things broken in this game. I think he needs to change his style a bit and that's why he loses, not his mechanics.
So I think you should tell all those pros, some of those quoted are also GSL champions, others have done well in MLG or other foregin tournaments.
I know, oGsMC, IMMVP, Polt, TLO, Idra, Huk, et .al should just "suck it up, and L2P", right? What a joke your argument is. pathetic.
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On November 07 2011 17:38 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 17:20 Heavenly wrote:On November 07 2011 16:55 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 16:50 karlkarlson wrote:On November 07 2011 16:41 kofman wrote:On November 07 2011 16:35 Trsjnica wrote:
Pretty insane that ZvT has *always* been Terran-favored, every single month since the game's release. Yea its crazy, especially since terran has been nerfed the most out of all the races. The idea that terran players are just better might have some truth to it. this is straight up nonsense. the people with the best sense of game balance AND the most accurate statistics, (blizzard) CONTINUE to feel terran is overpowered. one day they'll fire David Kim ( who plays T ) and hire an unbiased lead balance architect... LOL, David Kim plays random fyi, and terran has been constantly nerfed every patch. Even with the nerfs, terrans are still the strongest race. The only reason I can see why terrans are still dominating is that terrans are simply better. Terrans simply better, just took them a year and a half to start using blue flame hellions which had been unchanged, and ghosts, which some people even said received a nerf from the original cost since "terran is so mineral intensive". Lol. They'll continue to be nerfed as well if the statistics don't even out. He's saying that statistics can only show much. If this game is indeed about skill, rather than race, it's statistically more probable that one or two races are going to have more top players. Right now it's pretty apparent there are more korean terrans and zergs at the top because they are better than korean protosses. Likewise, there are a lot more top foreigner zergs and protosses because foreign terrans are pretty lacking in skill except for a few. There comes a point when you have to stop nerfing and tell the players losing to step it up. Otherwise it's just helping bad players because they play a different race.
there are more protoss than terrans in korean GM though...
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On November 07 2011 17:26 dashmode wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 16:42 SniXSniPe wrote:On November 07 2011 16:34 LoneWolf.Alpha- wrote:On November 07 2011 13:43 MyLastSerenade wrote:On November 07 2011 10:57 Lewan72 wrote:
Guys its cuz terran players are just better. one of the few true posts here.... didnt david kim said in an interview that the problem isnt really the balance, it is that so many really skilled players play terran, and not p or z? wow... if he really said this, then that makes me rage... Name the BW pros that switched over as P. Name the ones that are playing Z. Name the ones that are playing T. You'll see a much larger difference in numbers, as well as which race has the most successful players to switch over (in BW). So it's kind of true in a way. No, the problem is for blizzard that terran is the strongest... but only in korea.
Please read the OP. These stats are for tournaments worldwide- it's not just code S and it's not just Korea.
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PvZ hurts my fucking soul.
Muta ling is so stupidly hard to beat.
Seems like I'm not alone just browsing through TL as of late.
Oh well we just had 3 months of the ridiculous build that is 1-1-1, it's only fair that protoss starts to beat that and Zerg start fucking us in the ass.
Back to the drawing board then eh?
And I was just starting to feel I was getting a decent (ish) grasp on PvZ T_T
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On November 07 2011 18:27 Tingles wrote:
PvZ hurts my fucking soul.
Muta ling is so stupidly hard to beat.
Seems like I'm not alone just browsing through TL as of late.
Oh well we just had 3 months of the ridiculous build that is 1-1-1, it's only fair that protoss starts to beat that and Zerg start fucking us in the ass.
Back to the drawing board then eh?
And I was just starting to feel I was getting a decent (ish) grasp on PvZ T_T
It's more map abuse than anything. Hopefully thirds become easier to secure and defend for toss in the future.
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On November 07 2011 18:31 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 18:27 Tingles wrote:
PvZ hurts my fucking soul.
Muta ling is so stupidly hard to beat.
Seems like I'm not alone just browsing through TL as of late.
Oh well we just had 3 months of the ridiculous build that is 1-1-1, it's only fair that protoss starts to beat that and Zerg start fucking us in the ass.
Back to the drawing board then eh?
And I was just starting to feel I was getting a decent (ish) grasp on PvZ T_T It's more map abuse than anything. Hopefully thirds become easier to secure and defend for toss in the future.
Totally agree with that. It's also a lack of mobility that Protoss seems to inherently have.
It's seemingly impossible if they keep adding to the muta ball which snowballs, and trying to secure a 3rd. They just bounce back and forth between your 3rd ( denying it ) main and nat. And all the while your loosing probes and stalkers every time.
Needless to say it's extremely stressful to deal with, and the times that i have dealt with, I've basically completely outplayed my opponent, and they've had lacklustre execution.
More of a vent than anything to do with balance ... has to be one of the most frustrating things I've ever dealt with in SC2.
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For me it is very simple. I look at the tournaments page (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues
) and I look at the grandmaster stats:
EU
Grandmaster:
- Protoss 32.5% (64)
- Terran 24.4% (48)
- Zerg 43.1% (85)
Korea:
Grandmaster:
- Protoss: 39.5% (75)
- Terran: 35.8% (68)
- Zerg: 24.2% (46)
America:
Grandmaster:
- Protoss: 36.1% (65)
- Terran: 27.8% (50)
- Zerg: 33.3% (60)
Terran is definately imbalanced ;d
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On November 07 2011 18:09 karlkarlson wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 17:39 Topdoller wrote:On November 07 2011 17:06 Gheed wrote:On November 07 2011 17:00 Topdoller wrote:
I wish the mod would lock or delete this thread, for 3 reasons
1. All it does is promote balance whine and QQ.
2. It has nothing to do with the current state of the game. Tournaments don't play on the current ladder map pool, so the results dont reflect 99.9% of total games played
3. HOTS will be here soon 1. So come up with something constructive to say instead of whining yourself. 2. That is not the purpose of the information being presented. It is clearly intended only as a representation of professional level play, not ladder matches. Whether any meaningful conclusions can be drawn for it is debatable. 3. Soom(tm) edit: lol I am not whining , the game is balanced Oh good grief, no it's actually not. No one that knows anything is claiming that it's balancedAgain, please try to make your silly reasonless case to these pros: Show nested quote +
IMMVP 'I think the 1-1-1 should make you be disqualified from GSL.' Basically he's saying that terrans are OP but what part of the 1-1-1 that is OP is left to the imagination.
PoltPrime 'Many of these terrans are in Code S because the race is OP so I will knock them out.' So here Polt Prime is saying that terran is easier to win with basically. You have an easier time beating protoss or zerg players as terran.
EGDeMuslim 'I can't believe that Blizzard isn't looking at the ghost. I mean they nerfed rax build time by 5 seconds but they didn't look at the ghost. Greg (IdrA) keeps telling me to use ghosts more, and I have. Now I know why he thinks they need to be changed.' So EGDeMuslim is kinda hinting at the fact that ghosts should be looked at by Blizzard. This was in SotG episode 50 or 51.
WhiteRa 'I think the ghost have too many good spells. I think they do too good with everything protoss make and I think they need to be looked at by Blizzard. Too many good spells.' So WhiteRa the guy that popularized the statement More GG More Skill is saying that he thinks ghosts are a bit too good at the moment.
Huk 'I wish I played Terran.' This was also in a SotG episode where HuK says that playing terran seems to be a bigger benefit than playing protoss. His reasonings for why terran is a better choice for pro players isn't given but he feels being terran would help him.
IMNesTea 'Everyone knows that terran is much easier than zerg. If he didn't play terran he wouldn't have won so many championships. If I played terran I'd have won a lot more, if he played zerg I don't think he'd win.' This is NesTea talking about his teammate who after the match, looked depressed about winning.
FruitDealer 'You can't beat terran with this s*@$ race! This game is broken!' I hope you can figure out what he said. And maybe figure out why he said this.
oGsMC, 'Protoss is weak right now against terran.' Typically when one race is weaker than other we call that imbalanced. Maybe not though, maybe you can spin this.
Bisu 'Who would ever play that game? I hear it's terran favored. If protoss is so weak why even have them in the game? Just get rid of them. If I had to play it though, I would still pick protoss though.'
LiquidTLO 'Look how easy this race is. You build some rax and make marines. Don't stop making marines and keep pushing. It's not very hard. I stayed with terran because it's much easier.' I think he's saying it's easier to win with terran than zerg or protoss. Just a guess. He stated this on his stream one time.
IdrA and iNcontrol have said lots of things on terran being OP but you can disregard everything they said. IrdA is actually pretty smart and doesn't want to see things broken in this game. I think he needs to change his style a bit and that's why he loses, not his mechanics.
So I think you should tell all those pros, some of those quoted are also GSL champions, others have done well in MLG or other foregin tournaments.
I know, oGsMC, IMMVP, Polt, TLO, Idra, Huk, et .al should just "suck it up, and L2P", right? What a joke your argument is. pathetic.
There are some very interesting quotes here. Bisus quote feels weird to include, even though he is a bw pro, he is nothing more then a casual /spectator for sc2.
If you ask me, the game can only be balanced around PRO PLAY. And by the looks of it, most pros seem to agree that there is a problem with terran being op in one way or the other
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October has by far a smaller sample size... I'd wait a bit more before crying imbalance in any of the matchups... But Protoss is getting some nice buffs in the next patch.
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Interesting to see these results. I hope protoss learn some new tricks soon, because their current win rate is kind of sad.
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EPT
