On November 01 2011 12:26 DoomsVille wrote: Quakerix posted this on Reddit:
Hello Cloud, I was reading your topic on the price money issue. I'm extremely disappointed in the fact that you publicly put the ESWC brand in a bad spot light just a few days after our event. You decided to go public first instead of asking us about it. You say that you have no idea who to talk to, but you could have replied to your invitation email. Visit our website for contact information or ask your management for our contact information. From my point of view you didn't put much effort into the contacting us. Posting before asking is a really bad move towards any organisation. The new owners of the ESWC paid out price money last year in less than 1 month. Which is extremely fast in my opinion. I can totally imagine your fear or your problems with organisations regarding pay out. But you should be careful. Not to threaten you, but just to explain you why. Can you imagine, that if I want to invite you next year that my bosses will ask me "why would you invite a player that posted unjustified bad news about us". That's not the situation I want to be in because I loved the fact that you attended our event as an Italian representative. You getting top8 justified my invite as well. Anyway; it takes about 1 to 2 weeks for us to finish logistics for the event. After that we take care of price money. We have your mail address from the application, you'll be contacted regarding bank information. You can always message me on Skype: *. teamliquid, mail() whatever. With kind regards,
Put your pitchforks away people. Cloud sure did exaggerate the hell out of that PM.
Thats such a weird pr response. He didn't post his response in the TL thread but the reddit thread in response to the tl thread. Its incredibly stupid as well as it just listed along with the other ones that havn't paid out to him yet. Darkforce backed him up with another list so that its just not his own raving about. He shouldn't talk like that at all. whoever bought the organization wants to use the brand so people can remember some of its history but not all of it? what kind of messed up stuff is that? The organizers should be aggressive in paying off and investigating if they paid or not like IPL instead of trying to make shame some player who blew the whistle on reddit.
This exactly. Who the fuck is that guy to give shit to ClouD for bringing up an (obviously) important topic. ClouD even clarified his remarks and made special exception to ESWC. Quakerix is acting like this is some isolated incident, when in reality ESWC and other major tournaments all have similar problems of straight-up fraud. Why is it ClouD's responsibility to chase you guys down? Do you think his suspicions are unjust? Given the circumstances, I wouldn't say so. Your whole attitude on this topic is wrong. Take a note from IPL who, at least in appearance, seem like they're earnestly trying to fix their shit up and separate themselves from this shitshow. Instead you're acting all offended as if this post is a huge disservice to you guys. Well look it wouldn't be if you just paid the man and he cleared you guys publicly. What do you expect him to do when you show up with that condescending tone. What is ESWC without your players and fans? As an organization this is a chance to distinguish yourself and show that you care; not get all defensive. What horrible PR. (dumb fuck)
And you know what, regardless of whether or not this issue has anything to do with the tournament organizers as opposed to the sponsors, my point is you shouldn't be pointing fingers at the players and fans. It's our duty to bring this shit up so it stops becoming a recurring problem.
I think Quakerix is just following his company line. IPL is run by the former reddit invitational staff and at least from what I've read they're surprised by this and are doing stuff about it which sounds a hell of a lot better then some other organizations. ESL is a huge organization and I think they should get some slack for all the events they have to keep up on and all the different payouts that they need to keep track of (and make sure that the money is going to the right people. ESWC is in a completely different boat as I can't really tell what other event they have done other the the Paris event (which was horribly done might I add).
I can imagine someone being really pissed that this is coming down on them right after an event and they're still within their payout time. being passive aggressive about not inviting a player for blowing a whistle on something leaves you in a really shitty spot. either you go though with it and get a hell of a lot of bad pr and risk other players following him or not doing anything and players taking advantage of you.
Player loyalty is something that made mlg successful. Even with shitty prize pools compared to other events teams always went to mlg. I remember hearing about sundance giving t2 a free shirt when he was thinking that he would be the superstar he is today. ESL supports a hell of lot of esports so I'm going to keep watching them.
Just so you know kid, ESWC 2006 in Bercy was the BEST eSports event that EVER happened in the western world.
ClouD is a notorious rager and flamer and Quakerix already answered in another thread that ClouD shoudl contact him. But because he is as lazy as a cow, he prefers to complain.
Before you un-knowledgeable kids go on rampage like you know a damn shit about this, ESWC had ALL of the prize money in a bank account BEFORE the event. Like last year. Information is power, and all the quoted posters are obviously powerless.
Some evidence backing any of those claims would be appreciated, as it seems somewhat stacked against them.
Actually the solution to "all these problems" isn't that hard.
- Tournaments should all ask bankaccount information in advance (just a requirement in the application form). So the attenders know exactly what information they need, and the tournament directors don't need to ask for these information afterwards - Tournaments should be clear BEFORE the tournament starts in which time period they will pay. - That "payment period" may not be longer then 1 month for prize money below € 2.000,- - That "payment period" may not be longer then 3 months for prize money above € 2.000,- - Tournaments that not apply to the above should be boycotted (For this there need to be some sort of KesPa).
This way you don't ask anything absurd or something from tournament directors and the payment process will be clear for everyone. So everyone knows what they are up to.
A form of KesPa would by the way be a good idea anyway. Because of the following points: - Payment (see above) - Weird / unfair mappools in certain tournaments - Conflicting dates from big tournaments - Protect player rights - Protect team rights
Wow, this is a fucking embarrassment. Tournaments better start fucking getting their shit together. How are people gunna take esports seriously if tournaments can't get their shit together.
On November 01 2011 06:04 AndersR. wrote: Kinda feel like ESWC has been bashed a bit too much in this thread, the owners now are not the ones who were known for not paying out the money, that where the previous owners who went bankruptcy with the brand. I'm pretty sure that the current owners have done a fine job paying out, at least as far as i remember that was what Na'Vi.cs said last year after they won it.
Thank you. I'm extremely surprised that aTnCloud already posted about ESWC not paying out just a few days after the event. We didn't even finish up logistically and this event is already listed in this topic.
Ok, i can imagine that because of the previous company going bankrupt the brand had some damage. But posting this before even contacting us is a bit harsh towards the new owners. Last year they paid out just a few weeks after the event and now we didn't even had the chance.
You could have contacted us in 100 ways, your management has direct contacts with us, you could have replied to your invite email you could have even gone to our website and look up contact information.
Anyway; i messaged you privately and i also already replied to you in the ESWC topic a few days earlier.
Give us a break and we'll contact you as soon as possible.
On November 01 2011 01:48 Jcnorheim wrote: I am sorry that this happens.
Many community figures talk about how events compete with one another for viewers, and I think that this is definitely one of the factors that concerns at least some viewers.
On the other side of the coin though, ESWC probably didn't get nearly enough viewers due to having to compete with Blizzcon. So they already lost the competition for viewers. Maybe ESWC will use that as an excuse to disappear again.
We had 100k simultaneous viewers as peak during our weekend and there were about 1500 people watching games at the stage.
Don't worry about the fact that ESWC wasn't a success. It was.
Not really fair blaming ClouD for something he didn't even wrong.
ESWC is one of the tournament that still owes him money, so he is right.
He also says it takes a while before he will get his money, so he is right.
He says nowhere that he won't be paid by ESWC, so once again he is right.
He can't make the point he is making, when he takes all sort of tournaments out of his list, because of the risk of damaging them.
It is good that so many pro's are putting in their personal experiences to give a little extra evidence or insight of how it is for the majority of pro's. A bit disappointing on the organizers behalf...
On November 01 2011 15:46 michielbrands wrote: Actually the solution to "all these problems" isn't that hard.
- Tournaments should all ask bankaccount information in advance (just a requirement in the application form). So the attenders know exactly what information they need, and the tournament directors don't need to ask for these information afterwards - Tournaments should be clear BEFORE the tournament starts in which time period they will pay. - That "payment period" may not be longer then 1 month for prize money below € 2.000,- - That "payment period" may not be longer then 3 months for prize money above € 2.000,- - Tournaments that not apply to the above should be boycotted (For this there need to be some sort of KesPa).
This way you don't ask anything absurd or something from tournament directors and the payment process will be clear for everyone. So everyone knows what they are up to.
A form of KesPa would by the way be a good idea anyway. Because of the following points: - Payment (see above) - Weird / unfair mappools in certain tournaments - Conflicting dates from big tournaments - Protect player rights - Protect team rights
I like these ideas. The basic problem is not that a lot of money is paid out late, but that the players have to beg for it or, if the organizers pay late, that they don't announce it in advance. I don't think we need a players organisation, which would be difficult to maintain globally anyway, but we need sort of a rating system for the tournaments.
This does not only have to include details about prize money, but maybe also other things? Like standard procedures that a tourney should follow? And we should rate them accordingly, or set a minimal set of rules, and if a tourney does not follow these, it does not get featured on TL. It would be a lot of work to monitor and check these things, but something has do be done here....
What the "bad ones" have to do: - proper communication on payout details - pay interest if the money arrives later than on the promised date (may that be 60 or 90 days) - move your asses and contact the winner yourselves!
This form of KesPa btw. shouldn't be done by the players. Not that they won't be capable of this. But this will cost a lot of time, and the players should concentrate on playing .But when the SC teammanagers of liquid (Nazgul), EG, Mouz, Fnatic (Noname), Millenium. Just make a start of this. I think we already do have a pretty strong starting team. I think they are also more then capable of doing this, and their players can tell their opinions to them.
Yeah, ESL is one of the bigs in eSports atm (and they have the best casters :3) so it's a damned shame they can't pay out. Props to pro's who stick up for themselves and say it's bullshit. I guess this is the benefit of having a KesPA to smack the shit out of anyone who gets out of line.
On November 01 2011 12:26 DoomsVille wrote: Quakerix posted this on Reddit:
Hello Cloud, I was reading your topic on the price money issue. I'm extremely disappointed in the fact that you publicly put the ESWC brand in a bad spot light just a few days after our event. You decided to go public first instead of asking us about it. You say that you have no idea who to talk to, but you could have replied to your invitation email. Visit our website for contact information or ask your management for our contact information. From my point of view you didn't put much effort into the contacting us. Posting before asking is a really bad move towards any organisation. The new owners of the ESWC paid out price money last year in less than 1 month. Which is extremely fast in my opinion. I can totally imagine your fear or your problems with organisations regarding pay out. But you should be careful. Not to threaten you, but just to explain you why. Can you imagine, that if I want to invite you next year that my bosses will ask me "why would you invite a player that posted unjustified bad news about us". That's not the situation I want to be in because I loved the fact that you attended our event as an Italian representative. You getting top8 justified my invite as well. Anyway; it takes about 1 to 2 weeks for us to finish logistics for the event. After that we take care of price money. We have your mail address from the application, you'll be contacted regarding bank information. You can always message me on Skype: *. teamliquid, mail() whatever. With kind regards,
Put your pitchforks away people. Cloud sure did exaggerate the hell out of that PM.
Thats such a weird pr response. He didn't post his response in the TL thread but the reddit thread in response to the tl thread. Its incredibly stupid as well as it just listed along with the other ones that havn't paid out to him yet. Darkforce backed him up with another list so that its just not his own raving about. He shouldn't talk like that at all. whoever bought the organization wants to use the brand so people can remember some of its history but not all of it? what kind of messed up stuff is that? The organizers should be aggressive in paying off and investigating if they paid or not like IPL instead of trying to make shame some player who blew the whistle on reddit.
This exactly. Who the fuck is that guy to give shit to ClouD for bringing up an (obviously) important topic. ClouD even clarified his remarks and made special exception to ESWC. Quakerix is acting like this is some isolated incident, when in reality ESWC and other major tournaments all have similar problems of straight-up fraud. Why is it ClouD's responsibility to chase you guys down? Do you think his suspicions are unjust? Given the circumstances, I wouldn't say so. Your whole attitude on this topic is wrong. Take a note from IPL who, at least in appearance, seem like they're earnestly trying to fix their shit up and separate themselves from this shitshow. Instead you're acting all offended as if this post is a huge disservice to you guys. Well look it wouldn't be if you just paid the man and he cleared you guys publicly. What do you expect him to do when you show up with that condescending tone. What is ESWC without your players and fans? As an organization this is a chance to distinguish yourself and show that you care; not get all defensive. What horrible PR. (dumb fuck)
And you know what, regardless of whether or not this issue has anything to do with the tournament organizers as opposed to the sponsors, my point is you shouldn't be pointing fingers at the players and fans. It's our duty to bring this shit up so it stops becoming a recurring problem.
I think Quakerix is just following his company line. IPL is run by the former reddit invitational staff and at least from what I've read they're surprised by this and are doing stuff about it which sounds a hell of a lot better then some other organizations. ESL is a huge organization and I think they should get some slack for all the events they have to keep up on and all the different payouts that they need to keep track of (and make sure that the money is going to the right people. ESWC is in a completely different boat as I can't really tell what other event they have done other the the Paris event (which was horribly done might I add).
I can imagine someone being really pissed that this is coming down on them right after an event and they're still within their payout time. being passive aggressive about not inviting a player for blowing a whistle on something leaves you in a really shitty spot. either you go though with it and get a hell of a lot of bad pr and risk other players following him or not doing anything and players taking advantage of you.
Player loyalty is something that made mlg successful. Even with shitty prize pools compared to other events teams always went to mlg. I remember hearing about sundance giving t2 a free shirt when he was thinking that he would be the superstar he is today. ESL supports a hell of lot of esports so I'm going to keep watching them.
Just so you know kid, ESWC 2006 in Bercy was the BEST eSports event that EVER happened in the western world.
ClouD is a notorious rager and flamer and Quakerix already answered in another thread that ClouD shoudl contact him. But because he is as lazy as a cow, he prefers to complain.
Before you un-knowledgeable kids go on rampage like you know a damn shit about this, ESWC had ALL of the prize money in a bank account BEFORE the event. Like last year. Information is power, and all the quoted posters are obviously powerless.
Some evidence backing any of those claims would be appreciated, as it seems somewhat stacked against them.
Here's my problem with your post:
The people protecting ESWC for not paying prize money state that prior to last year they were under different management and lead by different people so they have no obligation to pay out the prize money. But these same people take credit for prior events. Don't take credit for the events for others if you won't pay out their obligations.
On November 01 2011 12:26 DoomsVille wrote: Quakerix posted this on Reddit:
Hello Cloud, I was reading your topic on the price money issue. I'm extremely disappointed in the fact that you publicly put the ESWC brand in a bad spot light just a few days after our event. You decided to go public first instead of asking us about it. You say that you have no idea who to talk to, but you could have replied to your invitation email. Visit our website for contact information or ask your management for our contact information. From my point of view you didn't put much effort into the contacting us. Posting before asking is a really bad move towards any organisation. The new owners of the ESWC paid out price money last year in less than 1 month. Which is extremely fast in my opinion. I can totally imagine your fear or your problems with organisations regarding pay out. But you should be careful. Not to threaten you, but just to explain you why. Can you imagine, that if I want to invite you next year that my bosses will ask me "why would you invite a player that posted unjustified bad news about us". That's not the situation I want to be in because I loved the fact that you attended our event as an Italian representative. You getting top8 justified my invite as well. Anyway; it takes about 1 to 2 weeks for us to finish logistics for the event. After that we take care of price money. We have your mail address from the application, you'll be contacted regarding bank information. You can always message me on Skype: *. teamliquid, mail() whatever. With kind regards,
Put your pitchforks away people. Cloud sure did exaggerate the hell out of that PM.
Thats such a weird pr response. He didn't post his response in the TL thread but the reddit thread in response to the tl thread. Its incredibly stupid as well as it just listed along with the other ones that havn't paid out to him yet. Darkforce backed him up with another list so that its just not his own raving about. He shouldn't talk like that at all. whoever bought the organization wants to use the brand so people can remember some of its history but not all of it? what kind of messed up stuff is that? The organizers should be aggressive in paying off and investigating if they paid or not like IPL instead of trying to make shame some player who blew the whistle on reddit.
This exactly. Who the fuck is that guy to give shit to ClouD for bringing up an (obviously) important topic. ClouD even clarified his remarks and made special exception to ESWC. Quakerix is acting like this is some isolated incident, when in reality ESWC and other major tournaments all have similar problems of straight-up fraud. Why is it ClouD's responsibility to chase you guys down? Do you think his suspicions are unjust? Given the circumstances, I wouldn't say so. Your whole attitude on this topic is wrong. Take a note from IPL who, at least in appearance, seem like they're earnestly trying to fix their shit up and separate themselves from this shitshow. Instead you're acting all offended as if this post is a huge disservice to you guys. Well look it wouldn't be if you just paid the man and he cleared you guys publicly. What do you expect him to do when you show up with that condescending tone. What is ESWC without your players and fans? As an organization this is a chance to distinguish yourself and show that you care; not get all defensive. What horrible PR. (dumb fuck)
And you know what, regardless of whether or not this issue has anything to do with the tournament organizers as opposed to the sponsors, my point is you shouldn't be pointing fingers at the players and fans. It's our duty to bring this shit up so it stops becoming a recurring problem.
I think Quakerix is just following his company line. IPL is run by the former reddit invitational staff and at least from what I've read they're surprised by this and are doing stuff about it which sounds a hell of a lot better then some other organizations. ESL is a huge organization and I think they should get some slack for all the events they have to keep up on and all the different payouts that they need to keep track of (and make sure that the money is going to the right people. ESWC is in a completely different boat as I can't really tell what other event they have done other the the Paris event (which was horribly done might I add).
I can imagine someone being really pissed that this is coming down on them right after an event and they're still within their payout time. being passive aggressive about not inviting a player for blowing a whistle on something leaves you in a really shitty spot. either you go though with it and get a hell of a lot of bad pr and risk other players following him or not doing anything and players taking advantage of you.
Player loyalty is something that made mlg successful. Even with shitty prize pools compared to other events teams always went to mlg. I remember hearing about sundance giving t2 a free shirt when he was thinking that he would be the superstar he is today. ESL supports a hell of lot of esports so I'm going to keep watching them.
Just so you know kid, ESWC 2006 in Bercy was the BEST eSports event that EVER happened in the western world.
ClouD is a notorious rager and flamer and Quakerix already answered in another thread that ClouD shoudl contact him. But because he is as lazy as a cow, he prefers to complain.
Before you un-knowledgeable kids go on rampage like you know a damn shit about this, ESWC had ALL of the prize money in a bank account BEFORE the event. Like last year. Information is power, and all the quoted posters are obviously powerless.
Some evidence backing any of those claims would be appreciated, as it seems somewhat stacked against them.
Here's my problem with your post:
The people protecting ESWC for not paying prize money state that prior to last year they were under different management and lead by different people so they have no obligation to pay out the prize money. But these same people take credit for prior events. Don't take credit for the events for others if you won't pay out their obligations.
agree with that one, you want to glory of the name, then you first have to get rid of the sh*t sticking on to it first. anybody rememebering the following video by theonion? because it reminds me of the situation very much.
Pro1: "I didnt get money from IPL yet." Pro2: "I didnt get money from ESWC yet." IPL: "We're looking into it and trying our best, but sadly theres a lot of paperwork that needs to be done. But you can rest assured we're doing our best to get the payments done in time." ESWC: "What the fuck, stop putting us in bad light!! You have no reason to do that and if you continue we might not invite you to any more of our events".
One organisation seems to need a lesson in crisis management....
Let's just keep it simple. You invite players and you pay them for their placement. If you choose not to invite our favorite players because they question your organization than we as your viewers will bring all of the bad press onto you that you deserve.
Invite our favorite players and pay them. Retain your sponsors and viewers. ???? Profit.
Even if some of these claims are blown out of proportion, maybe it will keep the true culprits on their toes and make them realize that 1. The players won't stand for it and 2. We the fans won't stand for it.
On November 01 2011 06:04 AndersR. wrote: Kinda feel like ESWC has been bashed a bit too much in this thread, the owners now are not the ones who were known for not paying out the money, that where the previous owners who went bankruptcy with the brand. I'm pretty sure that the current owners have done a fine job paying out, at least as far as i remember that was what Na'Vi.cs said last year after they won it.
Thank you. I'm extremely surprised that aTnCloud already posted about ESWC not paying out just a few days after the event. We didn't even finish up logistically and this event is already listed in this topic.
Ok, i can imagine that because of the previous company going bankrupt the brand had some damage. But posting this before even contacting us is a bit harsh towards the new owners. Last year they paid out just a few weeks after the event and now we didn't even had the chance.
You could have contacted us in 100 ways, your management has direct contacts with us, you could have replied to your invite email you could have even gone to our website and look up contact information.
Anyway; i messaged you privately and i also already replied to you in the ESWC topic a few days earlier.
Give us a break and we'll contact you as soon as possible.
On November 01 2011 01:48 Jcnorheim wrote: I am sorry that this happens.
Many community figures talk about how events compete with one another for viewers, and I think that this is definitely one of the factors that concerns at least some viewers.
On the other side of the coin though, ESWC probably didn't get nearly enough viewers due to having to compete with Blizzcon. So they already lost the competition for viewers. Maybe ESWC will use that as an excuse to disappear again.
We had 100k simultaneous viewers as peak during our weekend and there were about 1500 people watching games at the stage.
Don't worry about the fact that ESWC wasn't a success. It was.
Something is still wrong with the idea that you expect players to have to contact you to get an update on the money owed to them. If you owe someone money, the responsibility is on you to pay it it.
Or at least that's how I think it should be.
I think the same, but he thought it was wise to PM me saying I put ESWC in bad light for no reason and I might not get invited next year because of it. lol.
Way to go ESWC, put yourself in a bad light ON your own.
On November 01 2011 01:35 zeru wrote: I'm surprised that this many people dont know it is like this. But yeah it totally sucks. I remember there being talk on TL about this months ago and rakaka.se made some charts
Wow, MLG is earning its respect.
Now I see what is the reason why IEM lag behind in terms of good players coming to its tournaments and the tournaments quality, the organization is just much poorer.
In MMA, most states athletic commissions actually make a sanctioned event prove they have the funds for their purses. If they can't show they have it, the commission doesn't allow the event to happen. Actually happend to a promotion in California a few years ago.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tu7Fa.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/E1UWs.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0YlVL.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.rakaka.se/images/7774-rakaka_prize_money.jpg)
