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On November 01 2011 02:56 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:29 QTIP. wrote:
Try to remember guys - It's the idea of the unit that is important for discussion. Stats / cost / energy can all be adjusted in an attempt to bring it closer to actual balance. The idea is the critical component of the new units that needs to be discussed, this will not change barring a major unit-redesign.
My take on the shredder: Unit that can control space or be used to defend hard-to-reach expansions extremely well. A bit redundant considering the potency of PF's and Turrets. Can be very powerful in protecting siege tank lines from massive flanks. Cool idea, stats are something that need to be tweaked. Very abusable in its current state, similar to the assimilator cannon rush. I really don't see the shredder being used to deny far expansions. The effective control it would have could be emulated with simply a hellion, marine, or even a engineering bay... Without backup near to take advantage of the resources spent to take it down, there is no threat of doing so. It's almost the equivalent of forcing your opponent to attack rocks and abusing the positioning to gain an advantage. Being forced to approach an area a specific way is what the shredder does, along with a direct counter to insignificant but deadly/annoying counter attacks. It basically does all the things tanks are supposed to do but can't because of their drawbacks and nerfs.
I don't mean deny expansions, I mean protecting a ninja expansion you may have, or late game scenarios on certain maps such as "Dual Sight" where taking a third for T/P and defending it effectively are extremely difficult. I do agree that the Shredder might be slightly redundant when it comes to other features of the Terran Race, but I still think it will increase the gamut of strategies we will see.
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Haha, all I could think with the battlecruiser was "YOU HAVE BOOSTER POWER!" and some overdone electric guitar music in the background.
I tried shredders, and they don't really seem as good as everyone says. They had struggles surviving versus a single roach and a single hydra, and didn't murder everything quite as fast as everyone seems to think.
In addition, you can't have them too close to each other, as they will disable. I'm not saying that shredders should be able to just go lurker up and burrow in a pack, killing EVERYTHING, and i'm quite happy that they are more strategical and not as brute force and easy to use ^^,
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On November 01 2011 03:36 marttorn wrote:
In addition, you can't have them too close to each other, as they will disable.
They don't disable each other so you can have many of them in a small area. However, the damage apparently isn't cumulative.
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On November 01 2011 02:28 Tippecanoe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:04 Krikkitone wrote:On November 01 2011 02:01 Tippecanoe wrote:
Also the Swarm host is kind of op.. no actually it is op.
With the only range limit being the timer of the locusts themselves they can actually have something like 30 range. Kind of redic. but the dps declines with range at 10 range enemy units get 2/3 of the maximum damage at 20 range enemy units get 1/3 of the maximum damage excellent for a space control unit Then you realize the only reason why the unit is good is because the tanks are doing the damage. Doesnt matter how much damage the actual locust does all that matters is that the locusts live just long enough so that even 1 tank shot does some friendly fire.
That is where the stats come in.
If instead of slow waves, the swarm host sent a constant stream of units (with low dps attacks, but enough hp for the ones behind them to make it.. depending on # swarmhosts v. target strength) Then it would feel more swarmy, and the dps enemy units would be taking would slowly go up (as more and more of the 'locusts' surround them).
The super range is what balances out the low overall dps.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
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I really don't think that these videos / this map is an accurate representation of what the units will be like.
For starters, I will be surprised if the Shredder can burrow into the ground on creep.
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On November 01 2011 04:36 Ketara wrote:
I really don't think that these videos / this map is an accurate representation of what the units will be like.
For starters, I will be surprised if the Shredder can burrow into the ground on creep.
This is what it is like right now...as of blizcon...we all know changes will be made
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I just killed 20 scvs with one shredder while my opponent was microing his reaper in my main (killing 2 of mine), I don't see how it can stay like that, without an alert that is...
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doesn't look bad to me, the problem was that the zerg had nothing to defend except queens.
regarding the problem that you could miss it (or at least not notice it for several important seconds), blizzard is probably thinking of giving it a very distinctive sound during the buildup process.
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This did not seem as bad as everyone was making it out to be.. Plenty of time to run away plus Numbers don't mean a whole lot until beta anyways. I like the concept. One thing I am interested in though is can Vipers grip these when they are deployed? and if so do they deactivate when you grip them? Lings die too fast to defend with but queens seem to do a pretty good job so I'm not too worried.
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On November 01 2011 06:12 JustPassingBy wrote:
doesn't look bad to me, the problem was that the zerg had nothing to defend except queens.
regarding the problem that you could miss it (or at least not notice it for several important seconds), blizzard is probably thinking of giving it a very distinctive sound during the buildup process.
That's doubtful. Baneling drops are just as devastating (if not more) and those are more or less instant as well.
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Yeah I think queens are ok to defend against them, the problem is if you don't see the drop, you lose everything, there's not even a sound when your workers start taking damage.
Also I thought they costed 150/150, but in the custom map they're 125/50...
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I never understood the point of a balance discussion on a game that is still pre-beta
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Because if something sucks, it needs to be discussed, in order to find a suitable solution. It is annoying that people belittle any kind of talk about things subject to change, when such talk is exactly what would bring about that change.
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On November 01 2011 06:30 NormandyBoy wrote:
Yeah I think queens are ok to defend against them, the problem is if you don't see the drop, you lose everything, there's not even a sound when your workers start taking damage.
Also I thought they costed 150/150, but in the custom map they're 125/50...
Do you not hear the warning message because of a flaw in the custom map or is that how its supposed to be?
Because it would really suck if you sent a group of lings around a side path and they evaporated to a lone shredder while you were injecting or spreading creep.
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On November 01 2011 06:52 Gheed wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:30 NormandyBoy wrote:
Yeah I think queens are ok to defend against them, the problem is if you don't see the drop, you lose everything, there's not even a sound when your workers start taking damage.
Also I thought they costed 150/150, but in the custom map they're 125/50... Do you not hear the warning message because of a flaw in the custom map or is that how its supposed to be? Because it would really suck if you sent a group of lings around a side path and they evaporated to a lone shredder while you were injecting or spreading creep.
Just like it was suck if you went to move out and you lost 30 marines to 2 banelings because you were looking at home placing buildings and didn't hear the warning message...
If you are sending units out and not paying attention and they die its your own fault, they shouldn't put a warning message for it besides units are under attack.
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Those videos were extremely underwhelming. You have a LOT of time to be looking at your mini-map and it's the easiest defense in the world. Whats silly is how hard it is to then remove them so you can continue mining. LOL
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I can't imagine 99% of this thread in brood war.
"We need an alert for spider mines."
"Spider mines need to do less damage."
"Can't see them keeping spider mines how they are."
Beta isn't even out no one knows how OP this will be or how underpowered it will be. All we know is the current design of the unit, you can't make random balance statements without a huge sample of games.
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On November 01 2011 07:35 avilo wrote:
I can't imagine 99% of this thread in brood war.
"We need an alert for spider mines."
"Spider mines need to do less damage."
"Can't see them keeping spider mines how they are."
Beta isn't even out no one knows how OP this will be or how underpowered it will be. All we know is the current design of the unit, you can't make random balance statements without a huge sample of games.
Then discuss the idea or role of the unit. These are elements of the unit that are highly unlikely to be drastically changed assuming it makes it through Beta. Blizzard has expressed a discomfort in changing the fundamental role of a new unit to the point that it is too complex or "situation-dependent." They would rather have it removed from the game than nerfed into oblivion. There is still plenty that can discussed about the shredder.
Why mention Brood War at all.
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it should also shred the terrans own units if they step in :D
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lKVoz.png)
