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On October 31 2011 21:05 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 20:51 Grumbels wrote:
Zerg can get more drones and more minerals than other races, it's not bad for them to be "forced to funnel minerals into defenses", as that works as a tax on their income that's needed to balance the game. And you know, terran was forced to get missile turrets against zerg in brood war, did that make for a bad game? Having to set up drop defense is hardly bad, given how much drops are a core mechanic of the game. You're missing the point, which is when Zergs need to spend these minerals, what they need to scout in order to prepare, and how their strategies are impacted. If you look at Zerg in the early game, they are behind in workers and income. Their ability to spend on drones makes it possible for them to gradually overcome that deficit and get into the lead. If the 'mineral tax' comes at a bad time, or cannot be avoided... My biggest worry is that shredder drops will look exactly like a banshee build, meaning I'll have to build spines AND spores in both mineral lines, AND queens. Zerg is already under a lot of pressure to play passively and low-tech. Frankly I'm fucked if I'll spend HotS making two kinds of units for the first fifteen minutes and needing half an hour to take a game off a Terran. Been there, done that.
?? shredders take half a lifetime to deploy, you can just kill them during that time with your zerglings. This is just taking a minor thing and blowing it up: zerg needs minerals early game, yet we're forced to make drop defenses and then we will spiral ever further behind.
I just don't see how early game shredder drops are a problem, unless you're a horrible player. But then you'd lose to a marine drop too. Mid to late game you can indeed just set up defenses, even with the consequences to the world economy as you stated.
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With regards to the swarm host, it looks like you can send a units to lure all the attacks, as they do not move fast at all.
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No "units under attack" alert is probably the most difficult part of defending against this unit in drop play. And it definitely makes Terran in HotS strongest harasser (by large margin), as addition to already strong harassment options.
Also please note, one spine crawler on mineral line is not enough to defeat shredder. Terran can deploy shredder behind your hatchery, on the one of mineral field corners etc. etc. - are these places will damage your eco/production hard, and there is no way to protect them with only one spine. You need at least 3, or even 4 spines to fell safe (2 on mineral line, one behind the hatch) - in each base.
One more thing: do Terran really need so many weapons with splash?
In HotS terran have:
- Hellion (two different types of splash, depending on unit mode)
- Siege tank
- Warhound (against air)
- Shredder
- Ghost (nuke and EMP)
- Battlecruiser (Yamato Gun)
- New Thor (shoulder cannons now work like in campaign)
- Raven (HSM)
- Planetary Fortress
Compare this to Toss:
- Colossi
- High Templar (Storm)
- Archon
- Tempest (against Air)
- Replicator (depending on transformation)
Or Zerg:
- Infestor (Fungal)
- Baneling (Melee, suicide)
- Mutalisk (33% damage to second and 11% to third target... lol)
- Ultralisk (Melee)
Unfair? Probably...
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On October 31 2011 18:55 PredY wrote:
you just need to learn to leave units at your bases, just like in for example tvt to prevent hellion harass.
it's gonna be hard to learn to use more than 1 control group right?
Gj, love theese comments. Noob l2p they are fine. Obviously they are not fine. But on the other side, they won't be released at this state. In the TL intwerview with Dustin, he said that the shredder is too strong atm.
If they nerf this thing somehow and it's in the game then sure, mapawarness will be really important as you gotta strike before they set up, and they wont trigger attack warnings.
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Locusts last way too long, no?
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Oh god, PLEASE let the Locusts be mini-hydras when HotS releases.
I honestly don't see much wrong with the shredder as is, they could just make it unable to be put in a medivac if it's too much of an issue.
The BC speed buff kind of scares/excites me though.
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On October 31 2011 21:33 Exarian wrote:
No "units under attack" alert is probably the most difficult part of defending against this unit in drop play. And it definitely makes Terran in HotS strongest harasser (by large margin), as addition to already strong harassment options.
Also please note, one spine crawler on mineral line is not enough to defeat shredder. Terran can deploy shredder behind your hatchery, on the one of mineral field corners etc. etc. - are these places will damage your eco/production hard, and there is no way to protect them with only one spine. You need at least 3, or even 4 spines to fell safe (2 on mineral line, one behind the hatch) - in each base.
One more thing: do Terran really need so many weapons with splash?
In HotS terran have:
- Hellion (two different types of splash, depending on unit mode)
- Siege tank
- Warhound (against air)
- Shredder
- Ghost (nuke and EMP)
- Battlecruiser (Yamato Gun)
- New Thor (shoulder cannons now work like in campaign)
- Raven (HSM)
- Planetary Fortress
Compare this to Toss:
- Colossi
- High Templar (Storm)
- Archon
- Tempest (against Air)
- Replicator (depending on transformation)
Or Zerg:
- Infestor (Fungal)
- Baneling (Melee, suicide)
- Mutalisk (33% damage to second and 11% to third target... lol)
- Ultralisk (Melee)
Unfair? Probably...
the yamoto gun does aoe in HOTS?
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all of these three units will get nerfed, they seem so imba for me
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On October 31 2011 21:21 Confuzzled wrote:OH REALLY?! Because you have totally tried HotS in hundreds of games to determine that Zerg will be completely underpowered and run over in every single matchup, RIGHT?! It's just so fun that the "Omg terran imba" still exists from the WoL beta, the only reason people still bitch about this imbalance is because the korean terrans are a couple of times better than the protoss and zerg players in GSL, but that's of course how you determine balance right? On the results of 64 players in a korean tournament, fucking imbeciles. Every single unit in HotS will most likely change, and so will the OPRIDICULOUSSHREDDER too, most likely. And if it doesn't suit you that more units are introduced then go play another game. Shredder is fine.
OH REALLY?! Because you totaly tried HoTS in hundreds of games to determine that Zerg will not be completely underpower and run over in every single games, RIGHT?!
He ONLY said "Zerg is screwed =[", and that's how you respond? "Imbecile", really? Are you freaking kidding me? You deserve an holy ban, seriously.
I have news for you, tho. Terran will probably be nerfed 3 or 4 times before HotS release. If that doesn't suit you, go play another game, thanks.
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it takes 8 seconds to deploy right?
I wouldnt be surprised if lings can kill it before deployment.
At times, spinecrawlers should work as well I guess.
Would probably still be a great late game harass unit.
But lets first see how and if they are going to tweek this unit.
edit: typo
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Shredder actually seems reasonable because the queens can manage to pick them off with minimal damage, but its defencive role is too OP. It gives Terrans more ease in turtling 
Battlecruiser upgrade is quite silly. We'll be seeing more "mass" bc builds in the late game I guess... especially because corruptors are gone. -_-
Swarm host is the most OP thing here I think. It's basically an underground broodlord and the DPS of its "minions" or whatever they are is pretty retardedly strong, like the broodlord. Broodlord-Swarm host army anyone?
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Just make it 100/100 and it would be balanced.
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On October 31 2011 09:42 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote:
Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling). Warp prism + sentries + HT. There, it's already in the game. It's more expensive than say T's drops, but just as if not more powerful. Protoss drops are fine.
I see terran drops in progames nearly every game, I wonder why dont I see p drops if they are even more powerful
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Doesn't seem imbalanced at all to me, this is just like a templar drop but with the playing responding VERY slowly. Storm drop is much more dangerous and harder to spot in time by comparison.
Giving the shredder to terran seems silly though as they already have such possibilities for map control. TvP terran has total map control by having the faster army and medivacs and in TvZ terran has fine map control too with hellions and medivacs. If the shredder can't hit air it won't change a thing at all really..
I had rather seen it as a toss unit.
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I had rather seen it as a toss unit.
As Zerg player I have very similar feeling, Shredder should go to Toss.
[+ replace SH with good, old Lurker]
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On October 31 2011 22:02 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 09:42 Sadistx wrote:On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote:
Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling). Warp prism + sentries + HT. There, it's already in the game. It's more expensive than say T's drops, but just as if not more powerful. Protoss drops are fine. I see terran drops in progames nearly every game, I wonder why dont I see p drops if they are even more powerful
Because until recently everyone said warp prisms are paper airplanes that die too fast (something i never agreed with), so noone built them which of course made it impossible to drop.
Storm drops are devastating and i predict that we will see them in the future, now that the warp prism got an image boost.
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On October 31 2011 21:33 Exarian wrote:
No "units under attack" alert is probably the most difficult part of defending against this unit in drop play. And it definitely makes Terran in HotS strongest harasser (by large margin), as addition to already strong harassment options.
Also please note, one spine crawler on mineral line is not enough to defeat shredder. Terran can deploy shredder behind your hatchery, on the one of mineral field corners etc. etc. - are these places will damage your eco/production hard, and there is no way to protect them with only one spine. You need at least 3, or even 4 spines to fell safe (2 on mineral line, one behind the hatch) - in each base.
One more thing: do Terran really need so many weapons with splash?
In HotS terran have:
- Hellion (two different types of splash, depending on unit mode)
- Siege tank
- Warhound (against air)
- Shredder
- Ghost (nuke and EMP)
- Battlecruiser (Yamato Gun)
- New Thor (shoulder cannons now work like in campaign)
- Raven (HSM)
- Planetary Fortress
Compare this to Toss:
- Colossi
- High Templar (Storm)
- Archon
- Tempest (against Air)
- Replicator (depending on transformation)
Or Zerg:
- Infestor (Fungal)
- Baneling (Melee, suicide)
- Mutalisk (33% damage to second and 11% to third target... lol)
- Ultralisk (Melee)
Unfair? Probably...
The only thing you forgot is Viper "Anti-Dark swarm".It balances things out.
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Toss has Cannons + Warp for defense.
Terran has to leave units behind for defense. And to actually prevent/decently delay a run by you have to leave quite a few units, 2-4 tanks and a few marines or 20 lings will eat your defense no problems. I assume that's the reason for the Shredder's existence, prevent lings/blings. Disables on friendly units because it's not supposed to help with attack/once your army is there. It also is useless against an attacking force (roach and hydra should kill these quite fast).
They'll have to change it quite a bit for the lower leagues. Who pays attention to the minimap there?
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It should cost something around the lines 150/100 atleast.
If it's 150/50 then i agree it seems a little cheap!
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On October 31 2011 22:15 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 22:02 Cheerio wrote:On October 31 2011 09:42 Sadistx wrote:On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote:
Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling). Warp prism + sentries + HT. There, it's already in the game. It's more expensive than say T's drops, but just as if not more powerful. Protoss drops are fine. I see terran drops in progames nearly every game, I wonder why dont I see p drops if they are even more powerful Because until recently everyone said warp prisms are paper airplanes that die too fast (something i never agreed with), so noone built them which of course made it impossible to drop. Storm drops are devastating and i predict that we will see them in the future, now that the warp prism got an image boost.
Storm drops will never be too good on pro level. A prism will get noticed and all the terran has to do is evac scvs when there is threat and go back seconds later. Compare the drops:
- a terran drop not only forces evac it also actually kills stuff even if workers are evacuated. U cant ignore the terran drop or it will kill important buildings while u can just spread out your scvs, let the storms go off, go back to mining, and go try to kill the protoss while he has much less AoE now.
- terran drop is available at around 8-00(?) while you can get HT drop realistically at 14-00(?). Not only u need to get the tech available u need to wait for energy to build up
- terran risks mineral only units while p risks extremely gas expensive units.
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EPT
