EPTThe Powert of the Shredder - Drops and Defense vid - Page 14
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Supamang
United States2298 Posts
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On October 31 2011 19:01 Daralii wrote: The deploy time's about double that, I think. When I read these threads about the shredder and the overseer's removal, I have to wonder: why are so many zergs seemingly opposed to needing to get static defenses? I'm not opposed to needing static defences under some circumstances. I'm opposed to Zerg being funneled into building queens, drones, spines and spores every game. Think about it this way: queens, spines and spores are mineral heavy and consume workers, right? Building a queen is like building a barracks. Building a spine-crawler is like building a barracks and then shooting the SCV who made it. We also need to expand quickly and defend two bases. We're also trying to invest in our economy, because nothing else we do has much chance of paying off in the early game, right? So we're kind of forced to be all about the minerals - hence no fun toys for us. The overseer may be getting removed, but you still have spores, and a single spore can easily shut down DTs or cloaked banshees assuming you have a queen at every expansion. 2 defensive structures per base(only about 10 drones in a long game), and you basically shut down any new harassment options coming in HotS. That is... oversimplifying, to put it kindly  Building a spore crawler is a fine precaution against one banshee or one DT, but it doesn't scale as a solution. Absolutely, late on, spines and spores all over to guard against a cheeky DT comeback. No argument there. What I'm talking about is the shape of the early game and how dull and passive Zerg is forced to be. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 31 2011 19:27 Supamang wrote: i completely agree with the people saying spine crawlers should stop this no problem. honestly, a dropship full of marines is probably as effective in harassing the mineral line than this thing. I've said this already (I think), but people forget about the TIME it takes to get rid of a drop. Speedlings are the perfect drop-killers since they are fast and are good vs marines when the numbers are right (which is basicly always the case vs drops). Even though marines deal terrible damage to drones, speedlings are a perfect unit to counter-act. The shredder though is the hard counter to the zergling which means that the zerg has to use "some" other unit to kill it - and this other unit will be slower. People are saying "clever spine-crawler-placement". Big herp-derp, right now zergs aren't even able to defend vs chargelots properly with spine-crawlers.... At the very least the mere threat of something like that forces two "default" spine-crawlers so the whole mineral-line is defended. That's...the cost of a hatchery. I'm protoss btw, just so that there's no confusion about bias. | ||
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Tektos
Australia1321 Posts
That deploy time is pretty huge, if you can't pull drones in time something is wrong. Also, I bet Blizzard wont be releasing them in their current state, changes will be made long before HOTS is released so that they are as balanced as possible. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
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turamn
United States1374 Posts
It may just be another thing you'll need to consider in the midgame, along with all of the other terran harass possibilities. Not that they really needed anymore options...but you know! | ||
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Jetaap
France4814 Posts
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Exarian
Poland58 Posts
IMO Terran in HotS are going to have best-by far- harassment options in the entire game. Hellion(now can transform to firebat!)+regenerating Reapers + Shredders... Plus classic MM Drop play... Cloaked Banshees... OMG. | ||
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Asha
United Kingdom38149 Posts
I still don't really get this analysis/speculation over a game that's basically still in alpha, all numbers are subject to change (hell I'm sure almost everything gets tweaked in one way or another from how it is now to how it even is when the beta is released) | ||
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turamn
United States1374 Posts
On October 31 2011 20:54 Exarian wrote: Problem with spine is simple. You MUST know shredder drop i coming. Spreading spines around bases is not economical solution. Building spine after Shredder is deployed is nit good solution too - it will delay mining for long time [build time+time required to kill shredder]. Shredder drops are going to be low-risk [I know, 150/150, but it is less then 2 mutas - and how many damage you can do with 2 mutas?] high reward [if enemy fail to react in 4 in-game seconds (3 real seconds), you cleared his mineral lines using 150/150 unit... and you still have this unit. IMO Terran in HotS are going to have best-by far- harassment options in the entire game. Hellion(now can transform to firebat!)+regenerating Reapers + Shredders... Plus classic MM Drop play... Cloaked Banshees... OMG. So, what is wrong with premptively building a spinecrawler like a lot of Zergs do now anyway? If you build it at the front, you can crawl it back in range of the shredder while it burrows. 100 Minerals + a drone seems at least a little reasonable for defensing. Alternatively, you could just place evo chambers or other structures in the way to block them from burrowing, though that may not be the most effective thing. I hate to get too caught up in this now, though, given that it's still early development and we have no idea if it's going to make release as it is or not. | ||
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brachester
Australia1786 Posts
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On October 31 2011 20:51 Grumbels wrote: Zerg can get more drones and more minerals than other races, it's not bad for them to be "forced to funnel minerals into defenses", as that works as a tax on their income that's needed to balance the game. And you know, terran was forced to get missile turrets against zerg in brood war, did that make for a bad game? Having to set up drop defense is hardly bad, given how much drops are a core mechanic of the game. You're missing the point, which is when Zergs need to spend these minerals, what they need to scout in order to prepare, and how their strategies are impacted. If you look at Zerg in the early game, they are behind in workers and income. Their ability to spend on drones makes it possible for them to gradually overcome that deficit and get into the lead. If the 'mineral tax' comes at a bad time, or cannot be avoided... My biggest worry is that shredder drops will look exactly like a banshee build, meaning I'll have to build spines AND spores in both mineral lines, AND queens. Zerg is already under a lot of pressure to play passively and low-tech. Frankly I'm fucked if I'll spend HotS making two kinds of units for the first fifteen minutes and needing half an hour to take a game off a Terran. Been there, done that. | ||
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Kireak
Sweden358 Posts
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Exarian
Poland58 Posts
- If marines are dropped, you immediately get alert (units under attack), and you can react in matter if milliseconds - If Shredder is dropped, you don't get any alert until it is deployed So 3 second to react against marine drop are ages, while 3 seconds to react against shredder drop is probably not enough, especially if you have more then 2 bases. Also it is extremely important, Shredder is damaging Larvae/Eggs, so 3 well-placed shredders are, in theory, able to completely shut down 3 Zerg bases (no production + no resources collection) | ||
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spiksel
Netherlands97 Posts
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
just seems to be another way to reaaalllly punish someone for a tiny mistake, the new blue flame drop | ||
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taldarimAltar
973 Posts
On October 31 2011 09:38 Plexa wrote: Doesn't seem too bad to be honest. But I don't think it's another thing that Terran needs in their arsenal. I think it would be much better suited to Protoss whose drop play already isn't that good (in comparison) and would benefit from a unit that's able to zone out areas (think speedling counters vs muta/ling). I read this and I couldn't agree more, protoss does have any unit that is good at zoning or holding a position like tanks/burrowed banes/swarmhost. Shredders are like mini tanks without friendly splash, I don't get why terrans needed this. What was blizzard design philosophy behind it? Tempest to counter air, swarmhost to pressure, viper to break tanklines, what's the shredder for? Holding ground? But the tanks already does that | ||
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give.ViviD
Sweden235 Posts
On October 31 2011 21:12 sparkz wrote: Zerg is screwed =[ OH REALLY?! Because you have totally tried HotS in hundreds of games to determine that Zerg will be completely underpowered and run over in every single matchup, RIGHT?! It's just so fun that the "Omg terran imba" still exists from the WoL beta, the only reason people still bitch about this imbalance is because the korean terrans are a couple of times better than the protoss and zerg players in GSL, but that's of course how you determine balance right? On the results of 64 players in a korean tournament, fucking imbeciles. Every single unit in HotS will most likely change, and so will the OPRIDICULOUSSHREDDER too, most likely. And if it doesn't suit you that more units are introduced then go play another game. Shredder is fine. | ||
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ProxyKnoxy
United Kingdom2576 Posts
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gh0un
601 Posts
The lings dont take damage until they are almost already at the shredder, while in the blizzcon video they are already in the red when they reach the shredder. | ||
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