GomTV has changed up their GSL format (again). Since they love making things confusing (and they've outdone their previous performance), I figured I could help shed a light on the new format.
First the image from the GomTV website:
But what does it mean?! First, Code S is now always played before Code A, rather than the other way around. The first round of Code S is the group stage as usual. What changes is what happens to the losers. The #4 of each group joins the 40 Code A players in the first round of Code A (Ro48). The 24 losers are out of the GSL, they'll have to requalify.
The 24 winners of the Ro48 mix up with the #3 players of each group in the Code A Ro32. The losers go to the up&down matches (more on that later). The winners move on. Next is the Code S Ro16, which will also use a group format like the Ro32. The 8 losers (#3 and #4 in each group) drop down to Code A and play the Code A Ro24 (together with the 16 remaining players from the Ro32). The losers go to the up&down matches. The 12 winners go straight to Code S.
Meanwhile, in Code S, the Ro8 and onwards are played with no changes to the setup, all players in the Ro8 stay in Code S.
The up&down matches consist of 28 players that lost in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of Code A and 2 "seeded international players". That's 30 people that will play in 5 groups with the top 2 advancing. That's 10 players going into Code S, together with the 12 Code A "winners", the top 8 from the previous Code S and 2 seeded players (MLG, I guess).
20 losers from the up&down go to Code A together with 20 players that either qualified or are seeded directly (MLG).
Summary of the changes and consequences - Players can go from Code S to Code B in one season (place 4th in group and lose Code A Ro48). - Much larger potential turnover in Code S: Only the top 8 are garantueed to stay. - Code A is no longer a separate tournament, but it more resembles a loser bracket from a double-elimination tournament. There are no finals as the top 12 advance directly into Code S. - More group-stages in Code S, with the Ro16 now also using this format.
Poll: What do you think of the new GSL format?
I like it. (1475)
75%
I don't understand it well enough to give an opinion. (212)
11%
I don't like it. (141)
7%
I'm neutral. (131)
7%
1959 total votes
Your vote: What do you think of the new GSL format?
(Vote): I like it. (Vote): I'm neutral. (Vote): I don't like it. (Vote): I don't understand it well enough to give an opinion.
A different graphic by jamessooy that shows the progress of players through code S and code A more clearly:
Even more simplified explanation thanks to Choboo (Warning: sarcasm alert!) + Show Spoiler +
Nice explanation. So all of the group stages are the 1v2, 3v4, winner vs winner, loser vs loser, final match to determine #2? All Bo1 is a bit sketchy though....
I think i like it. Think. I like the way being code S is still a big advantage but not astronomical, and that going to korea for a single month can now be enough to win the whole tournament
(as unlikely as that may be it might provide more encouragement to foreign players)
I really, really like it - way less safety for code S players, but still guaranteed spots for the elite that goes deep.
Even though it's pretty complicated, I seriously think this will be very good for future. Especially, I don't deny my bias, since it will allow for some of the mediocre terrans to get eliminated quickly if protoss gets back on track again....with the old system the racial imbalance would've been 100% guaranteed for several seasons to come.
On October 27 2011 18:35 Lunares wrote: Nice explanation. So all of the group stages are the 1v2, 3v4, winner vs winner, loser vs loser, final match to determine #2? All Bo1 is a bit sketchy though....
They said on the group selection stream that it's Bo3 instead of Bo1. So a lot less volatility in those rounds.
Thanks for the explanation! They kind of screwed up the diagram in my opinion, though: The arrows leading down from the current season to the next season should just lead to giant question marks. Who knows what GSL will look like in another month?
In all seriousness, I love the idea of this. We'll be much more likely to get to see new faces every season, and players who manage to stay in Code S season after season will earn bona fide legend status: making top 8 in Code S or top 12 in Code A over and over again will not be an easy task.
Aww.. why are you guys so fast , Anyways I made one too.
The new GSL format explained step by step.
First starts the Code S with 32 players in eight 4player groups. The 4th place finishers are seeded into the Code A tourmanent with 48 players(= 20 from up and down, 20 from up and downs and the 8 from Code S) Now Code A plays out it's Ro.48. The losers of their match are out of the GSL (=24 players) The winners move on to Ro.32 (= 24players)
Code A Ro.32 consists of the winners of the last round and Code S 3rd place finishers. Now 16 advance and the losers get placed to the Up and Downs.
Now Code S 1st and 2nd place finishers play out 4 groups of 4 players. 3rd and 4th place finishers (=8players) are placed into the ongoing Code A tournament. The 1st and 2nd place finishers play Ro.8 and onwards as single elimination tournament. (they are also seeded into next Seasons Code S) Code A has now the 16 players and the 8th players from Code S. Of these 24 players 12 get seed into Code S and the other 12 are placed into up and downs. (I'm unsure how this stage plays out, I'm guessing single elim or round robin)
Now we have 20 players into next Season's code S, so where do the missing 12 come from? Well, 2 are seeded from elsewhere (MLG's ?), so we are missing 10. To get these guys we need to play out the up and down bracket. The Up and Down is 30 players, 5 groups of 6. 28 players come from the Code A Ro.32 (=16) and Ro.24(=12) and the last 2 are seeded foreigners. Of these 5 groups the 1st and 2nd place finishers are seeded into the next seasons Code S (The missing 10 !) The rest(=20) get seeds to Code A.
The next seasons Code A therefore consists of 20 seeds, 20 offline qualifiers. Along the way the 24 Code S players are mixed in the rounds.
So each season 24 players can get kicked out of the GSL. Up to 8 Code S players can end up in Code B too (previously they could only drop down to Code A).
So there's no longer really a Code A tournament, there won't be a Code A winner, it's just a qualifier and nothing more... I don't know how I feel about that. It was nice to have Code A finals, we had some good ones...
On October 27 2011 18:35 Lunares wrote: Nice explanation. So all of the group stages are the 1v2, 3v4, winner vs winner, loser vs loser, final match to determine #2? All Bo1 is a bit sketchy though....
They said on the group selection stream that it's Bo3 instead of Bo1. So a lot less volatility in those rounds.
Is that for ALL group stages being Bo3? (both ro32, ro16, and up and down)
I love this actually. It keeps people from staying in Code S by simply getting lucky/chessing through the Group stages and then losing in the Ro16 every tournament. It also keeps players like MC or Jinro (sorry you two, I love you), when they're in a slump, from taking forever to drop out. Getting them out faster will get someone better in, and that's always good.
Also, it should be reinforced that it's all Bo3 in the Code S rounds. If it's not, then we'll get 16 pages about how Bo1 is not okay. John the translator said so in the group selections, and I'm sure we can trust what he says.
The one thing I really love is that the GSL is dragged out over something like two months now. That makes them more important by essentially cutting the amount of tourneys in half. There's been a clamoring for fewer GSLs to give the tournaments long enough to mature, create stories, and develop. Here you go.
I feel its abit harsh to be able to drop "two" leagues in one season. Going 4th in Code S -> getting matched against a up&comer from Code B and losing will result in having to requailfy.
I feel that it should take 2 seasons to drop 2 leagues, but maybe thats just me
On October 27 2011 19:39 nilssonen wrote: I feel its abit harsh to be able to drop "two" leagues in one season. Going 4th in Code S -> getting matched against a up&comer from Code B and losing will result in having to requailfy.
I feel that it should take 2 seasons to drop 2 leagues, but maybe thats just me
I thought the same but it's very similar to double elim bracket.
Players that drop from Code S and get beat by a fresh code A qualified player deserve to be knocked out anyway.
On Code S, from Ro.32 to Ro.16, it goes from 8 groups of 4 to 4 groups of 4. That means there's a mixing of groups. Is that by random chance, or sth like group 1's 1st and 2nd mix with group 2's 1st and 2nd? Also, are their "points" or "wins" reset on that mixing so on the new groups all play from scratch or there's an hierarchy within the new groups set from the games of Ro.32 ?
On October 27 2011 20:12 Apolo wrote: I didn't got one thing though.
On Code S, from Ro.32 to Ro.16, it goes from 8 groups of 4 to 4 groups of 4. That means there's a mixing of groups. Is that by random chance, or sth like group 1's 1st and 2nd mix with group 2's 1st and 2nd? Also, are their "points" or "wins" reset on that mixing so on the new groups all play from scratch or there's an hierarchy within the new groups set from the games of Ro.32 ?
Don't think anything was said about how the groups will be reseeded for the Ro16. But I'd guess that they do something like: group 1: A1, B2, C1, D2. group 2: A2, B1, C2, D1. etc... This way noone will meet someone that they've already played and all groups will contain two groupwinners and 2 second place players.
Thanks for the explination. I feel like now it will be harder for inconsistent players to stay in code s level (not necessarily bad players, but if you are having a bad month...).
It also brings more matches in general for everyone, which is good.
I like this new format as a whole but I think they should play a Code A finals anyways. It seems anticlimactic to just stop at a RO24. I know there wouldn't be a "qualification" aspect/motivator past the RO24 but still, having a piece of hardware that says "Champion" and a small cash prize would still be a good motivator.
This sounds like their best idea yet, can't wait to see it in action. Hopefully the gimmicky players who rely on finishing 3rd on the Ro32 to stay in code S can be weeded out much easier.
I think it's a really good format. It helps with the Terran problem, and it also helps Code A players who are better than Code S players. If Code S players are deserving they'll slay Code A players and stay in Code S for next season even if they lose before the Ro8. Even if a deserving Code S player falls to Code A they still have a good shot next season if they're good since there are so many chances. Code A players who fall out can also get in easier because of how many players they get from the qualifiers. Lots of chances and lots of proving. Love it!
On October 27 2011 21:27 yakitate304 wrote: I like this new format as a whole but I think they should play a Code A finals anyways. It seems anticlimactic to just stop at a RO24. I know there wouldn't be a "qualification" aspect/motivator past the RO24 but still, having a piece of hardware that says "Champion" and a small cash prize would still be a good motivator.
I think we should stop seeing code A as a separate tournament. Instead, the new Code A serves the purpose of the loser bracket in a double elimination style tournament. It gives the people that got knocked out of the winner bracket (Code S) a chance to still obtain a high ranking (= requalifying for Code S)
The graph is detailed, but because of that it kinda makes this look way more confusing than it is.
When you look at it, this format is way superior I think. Faster turnover in Code S is something I really feel is a good thing, especially with an established teamleague.
On October 27 2011 21:27 yakitate304 wrote: I like this new format as a whole but I think they should play a Code A finals anyways. It seems anticlimactic to just stop at a RO24. I know there wouldn't be a "qualification" aspect/motivator past the RO24 but still, having a piece of hardware that says "Champion" and a small cash prize would still be a good motivator.
I think we should stop seeing code A as a separate tournament. Instead, the new Code A serves the purpose of the loser bracket in a double elimination style tournament. It gives the people that got knocked out of the winner bracket (Code S) a chance to still obtain a high ranking (= requalifying for Code S)
I agree - at the beginning, following code A was fun because it was new, but I have to admit I rarely followed the matches later on, it was a bit of overkill; having code A reduced to a real "qualifier" again makes sense and seems to do what it's meant to: give people the possibility to qualifiy for code S and nothing more
So, basically, Code A is now essentially the lower bracket of a slightly weird double elim format.
I drew in a hesitant breath when I saw Code S Ro16 was groups, but if groups are Bo3 - awesome!
I like it immensely. Code A is no longer the graveyard of slumping players and Code S is no longer incredibly hard to get into. I think at least part of the reason for this is that with the previous format, so few people fall out and get in to Code S (potential change of 8 players per season?) that their huge over representation of Terran wasn't going anywhere for a long time. Even if terrans weren't doing so good, the best case scenario would be 8 T out and 8 P/Z in, which is unlikely. It's more likely to be about 5 T, 2 P 1 Z, down, and 4 T, 2 P, 2 Z in. So Code S loses...1 T. If the above paragraph seems rambling - essentially since there are so many terrans in Code S, even when they are not playing well the Up & Downs are saturated with terrans, and at least a few of them are going to get back in to Code S. So in the previous format, people would be whining about T imbalance at the highest levels for months to come because it would take months and months for the races to redistribute in GSL.
One thing to consider is how prize money is distributed now, what with no Code A finals.
Overwhelming graph if you don't look at it bibybit. I like this format, a lot more chances to see new people and enough slack on the Code S players who fall in the earlier rounds.
On October 27 2011 22:06 razz wrote: Awesome format, and a lot less volatile!
A lot less volatile? Are you serious?
I doubt many people will continue to think so after their favorite player loses 2 bo1s in the Code S group stage, then loses only 1 bo3 and falls all the way to Code B after 4 games played...
On October 27 2011 22:06 razz wrote: Awesome format, and a lot less volatile!
A lot less volatile? Are you serious?
I doubt many people will continue to think so after their favorite player loses 2 bo1s in the Code S group stage, then loses only 1 bo3 and falls all the way to Code B after 4 games played...
There are no Bo1s in this format. The entire group stage is Bo3. So if your favorite player loses three Bo3s in a row he doesn't deserve Code S. It is more volatile though.
Summary of the changes and consequences - Players can go from Code S to Code B in one season (place 4th in group and lose Code A Ro48). - Much larger potential turnover in Code S: Only the top 8 are garantueed to stay. - Code A is no longer a separate tournament, but it more resembles a loser bracket from a double-elimination tournament. There are no finals as the top 12 advance directly into Code S. - More group-stages in Code S, with the Ro16 now also using this format.
I may have read this wrong but does that mean no code A finals? I like most the changes but if this is true I will miss watching awesome GSL Korean finals. Hopefully Code S step it up!!!
On October 27 2011 22:06 razz wrote: Awesome format, and a lot less volatile!
A lot less volatile? Are you serious?
I doubt many people will continue to think so after their favorite player loses 2 bo1s in the Code S group stage, then loses only 1 bo3 and falls all the way to Code B after 4 games played...
There are no Bo1s in this format. The entire group stage is Bo3. So if your favorite player loses three Bo3s in a row he doesn't deserve Code S. It is more volatile though.
On October 27 2011 22:06 razz wrote: Awesome format, and a lot less volatile!
A lot less volatile? Are you serious?
I doubt many people will continue to think so after their favorite player loses 2 bo1s in the Code S group stage, then loses only 1 bo3 and falls all the way to Code B after 4 games played...
There are no Bo1s in this format. The entire group stage is Bo3. So if your favorite player loses three Bo3s in a row he doesn't deserve Code S. It is more volatile though.
at least next year it will change. He says no time to make the change this year probably due to time restraints and how they have set up the length of the season with regards to other tourneys etc
On October 27 2011 22:26 Umpteen wrote: Will both code S group rounds be best of one this time around, or just the round of 32? The tweet suggests both...
Probably both. Each group-stage has 5 games (Bo1). In previous seasons, the Ro16 consisted of 8 Bo3s, so between 16 and 24 games. Now it'll be 4 groups of 5 games, 20 total. The tweet from Mr. Chae said that there wasn't enough time on the schedule to fit in more games, so it makes sense that both group stages are Bo1, keeping the total number of games to be casted roughly equal to previous seasons (in Code S at least, Code A will have quite a bit more games).
Well, looks like I'll start buying the GSL pass again. The 2 international players getting in the up&down automatically is fantastic. Good job GOM, this is exactly what we were asking for.
This will be interesting to see if Terran's still dominate, or if after a few seasons we'll see it more evened out.
Very nice format. Know getting into code S is more realistic for many and code S slackers can now more easily fall into code A/B. If you're good enough for code S you stay, if not you'll come back a season or two, after . If not well, you ain't good enough
Previously it was: if you're good enough for code S, you may still not qualify for code S as crazy good players fall to up/down all the time; meanwhile mediocre code S players get yet another lucky run through the up/down bracket and stay in code S.
looks great, This format will be quite exciting in my opinion . With players shifting from Code S to Code A quickly we can see many new upcoming talents quicker , I also like the fact that Code A is actually improved overall, since its guaranteed to have quite a number of Code S players fighting for there life's in there too. I like i like.
I don't like the new format at all. It's confusing and overly complex, impossible to see "oh it's the round of 16" and know exactly where in the tournament you are. People constantly bouncing between code A and code S all in the same tournament.
Code A is no longer the minor leagues, and no longer has a final. (The round of 24 is the code A final... seriously.) Before I would watch code A, enjoy seeing who can put on dominant performances vs weaker competition, and maybe make a real impact in code S next month. And even though it's a lesser tournament, the semifinals and finals had extra entertainment value.
Now all of that is gone. I have no interest in watching any code A games ever again (except for Boxer's).
I'm also not a fan of being able to go from code S to code B in a single tournament.
On October 27 2011 22:06 razz wrote: Awesome format, and a lot less volatile!
A lot less volatile? Are you serious?
I doubt many people will continue to think so after their favorite player loses 2 bo1s in the Code S group stage, then loses only 1 bo3 and falls all the way to Code B after 4 games played...
There are no Bo1s in this format. The entire group stage is Bo3. So if your favorite player loses three Bo3s in a row he doesn't deserve Code S. It is more volatile though.
wait a sec, does this mean that naniwa and sase wont be in the Ro48, but directly placed into the up and down groups? according to the graph the mlg seeds dont start in the Ro48
edit: hmm, that would mean that they are automatically in code A next season even if they lose. that doesnt seem to make much sense to me o.o. unless they really want to make sure there is foreigner representation in every GSL
While I didn't like how easy it was to stay in Code S before, and that new faces should be seen more often, I think this new system swings too far the other way. It shouldn't be possible for a good Code S player to have a few bad matches in a row and be demoted entirely out of the GSL. 24 players will have to requalify after being pushed out in the Ro48 - many of them could be amazing players, but have an unlucky single matchup, and have to go through the grueling qualifications again. Alternatively, a player could finally, after months, push his way into the GSL, and then instantly drop out again after 2 bad games due to nerves in his first GSL series.
Think about it - everyone has bad days, and even bad weeks. The volatility of this system means that known players will drop out of the GSL much more readily. It's fun to watch unknowns rise up and dominate, of course, but if the player roster changes too quickly, only the very top-tier players will have a consistent presence, and I believe games between relative unknowns will generally have far fewer spectators.
To avoid this volatility, I'd much prefer to see a system where far more games are played at the Ro32 (perhaps using a swiss tournament, or round robin system with large groups) but only the more interesting matchups are broadcast - unexpectedly good games could also be recast. The top 16 from this would be put through to a single elimination Ro16, while the bottom 16 would be demoted to Code A (with no chance of demotion to Code B until the next season), where they could fight to reach Code S again.
In Code A, a similar system could be used for the Ro48, where only a few games are broadcast, but far more games are played. It could still be possible to eliminate the bottom 24 players and have them requalify, but with more games played, the best and most consistent players would be more certain of advancing.
Overall I think the format is great. I like the extra group stage in Code S. Only slightly sad about the lack of a Code A final since some finals in previous seasons have been epic. It'll be interesting to see if the Code S players who get knocked down can claw their way back to Code S in a single season.
On October 27 2011 22:56 Newbistic wrote: Sorry but the diagram was way clearer than the explanation D:
I agree (as a mathematician: symbols, arrows and numbers beat words any day of the week), but from earlier threads about various tournament formats it has become obvious that this isn't the case for everyone
@Aeyon: The low-quality stream is free, as is the VoD of the first game of each match (either BoX series or group-play). For high-quality live-stream and VoDs you'll have to pay.
Looks great to me. Can see some people going from code S to out of the tournament after the next season, which would have taken about 6 months in the old system. Will probably cause a lot more volatility for players, which might be a bad thing. As a fan, I think the games will become a lot better as there is always promotion/demotion on the line.
The format is a very nice upgrade to the previous seasons. I do have a problem with it though. If you look at traditional double elimination format or most other formats in general there is always a winner who have the chance to move on to win the tournament and a loser that will get knocked down or out. In this format about half the games only determines where you will play next season; code B, A or S.
If we look at the total amount of games:
Code S ro32: 40 Bo3's
Code S ro16: 20 Bo3's
Code S ro8: 4 Bo5's
Code S ro4: 2 Bo5's
Code S final: 1 Bo7
A total of up to 199 maps played where the winner can potentialy win the tournament.
Code A ro48: 24 Bo3's
Code A ro32: 16 Bo3's
Code A ro24: 12 Bo3's
Up and down: 75 Bo1's
A total of up to 231 maps played to determine which league you will be seeded into next season.
I get the same feeling with these as I get I get about 3rd/4th place matches; I dont watch them cause I dont care. The winner cant win the tournament anyway.
Surely it matters a bit more who starts in code S then finished 3rd or 4th but I dont get the same excitement of a placement match then I do from an elimination match where the winner can potentialy win the tournament.
That being said the format is still much much better then the old format and despite everything I am sure it will bring a lot of exciting games.
On October 27 2011 22:40 Sackings wrote: wait a sec, does this mean that naniwa and sase wont be in the Ro48, but directly placed into the up and down groups? according to the graph the mlg seeds dont start in the Ro48
edit: hmm, that would mean that they are automatically in code A next season even if they lose. that doesnt seem to make much sense to me o.o. unless they really want to make sure there is foreigner representation in every GSL
Didn't Naniwa and Sase qualify for Code A already? Who are the highest seeded international players?
I'm not sure I like not having a full Code A tournament, but I suppose because of the overall number of players, we'll see about the same number of games as before, so I guess it should be all right. Having a Code A finals never really made much sense to be anyway. Were they playing to find out who was the 33rd best player in the world?
GSL was already pretty intense with the amount of broadcasted matches. With the new format they'll be showing 24 more Bo3's, plus however many more Bo1's from the 6 player up/down matches. That's a lot :o Can't say I'll even be able to watch that much.
The new format is great. More turnover, and less randomness (Code S groups are bo3). The only thing I really hate is the ro48 being bo1 though. Bo1 rounds was one of the big reasons for the randomness of the previous format, and it seems weird that the players have to go through a bo3 qualifier (code B) to just play a bo1 and get out :/
i like this new format, but what about code A after ro24? the diagram doesn't show any other followin inner tourney that brings to a code A final, but just to 12 people qualified for the next code S season.
I'm glad they're no longer playing out the end of Code A. It was like the world's most difficult and meaningless tournament because all the best players in Korea were not allowed to compete.
I'm glad they're moving towards an MSL format. Although it needs to be confirmed that they're BO3s instead of BO1s.
I'm glad they're moving to a two month tournament because it creates more time to generate stories. Heck, I'd like it even more if they moved to a 3 month so they have genuine "seasons". That way the prize money could be more evenly distributed to the lower finishers.
I'm a little uncertain about only the top 8 being guarenteed Code S seeds. I'd be more comfortable with the top 16 staying, and then make the up/downs really challenging for the bottom 16 of Code S.
On October 28 2011 00:11 babishh wrote: i like this new format, but what about code A after ro24? the diagram doesn't show any other followin inner tourney that brings to a code A final, but just to 12 people qualified for the next code S season.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is now essentially no Code A championship? Meaning Code A is now literally only a progressive step to Code S? Not sure how I feel about that.
On October 27 2011 23:06 ganellon wrote: Where do the second Code S seed come from ? - one is from the MLGs, - the other ?
The other is the last month's Code A winner. Obviously now that they aren't playing out Code A anymore they'll need to think of some other way to hand out the seed. (maybe that korean online tourney thing)
On October 28 2011 00:28 JustPassingBy wrote: another good thing about the new system, no more tragic hero that is the code A champion, who would've won so much more money had he been in code S.
...and beaten a completely different bunch of opponents.
I'm not 100% sure I get the new format but this seems like a huge improvement, I love tournaments with huge turnover rates for the top players. Keeps things spicy and fun.
There should be a "GOM just gave me cancer of the brain" option in the poll. Guess I'll re-read this in the morning. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to us
On October 27 2011 19:09 sitromit wrote: So there's no longer really a Code A tournament, there won't be a Code A winner, it's just a qualifier and nothing more... I don't know how I feel about that. It was nice to have Code A finals, we had some good ones...
Yeah Code S finals are guaranteed to be one-sided. Sad to see Code A finals disappear.
Interesting. I like the double elimination type format and that only top 8 guarantee to stay. A little sad that we don't get a code A winner but this is more exciting overall in my opinion. This also makes up for when 2 really strong players meet early on in the tournament.
I like everything except that there's not preferred seeding for the very best Code S finishers. It shouldn't be possible to win one GSL and drop all the way out of the system in the next one.
Thank you, Rannasha! Kinda loving this new bracket. Having people flux in and out of Code S should give some more foreigners a chance to sneak in and make a run for it.
I dunno what the OP means, I would go so far as to say this format is a hellovalot simpler than the previous format.
Which is too bad, because I feel like the other format was good, if players had consistency, and the game wasn't constantly changing. However, for this format, code S really is less important than it once was, since it is much easier to get in.
I think all we need now is a way for the top 4-8 in Code A to play against the top 4-8 in Code S so that it's really more of a "losers bracket" and we'd have the most epic tournament ever.
I don't like it. They have it backwards. Code A should come before Code S. The way they have it set up, it feels like a sports league that has its playoffs first, then plays the regular season for next year's season.
Also, somebody from Code S can drop to Code B in one season but somebody from Code B/A can only come back to Code S in one season. They can't compete in it. With the increased volatility, they're going to have many problems with good players unable to compete for the Code S championship.
That looks quite a bit better. I'm interested to see what happens now. Might have to borrow my brothers paypal and buy GSL nov so I can get the vods.
Only have one question right now. IdrA and Demuslim will be in the code A ro48 right? I guess they are going for GSL Nov. Or will they be the 2 international seeds that are put into up and downs?
From how I read it, they should be in ro48 since they have code A seeds. The 2 international spots are for people that GSL invites? Someone like WhiteRa if he wanted to go. Maybe PuMa? Or some other code B player that they think deserves a shot?
I dont like the idea of having a code S guy going to code B in the same season specially if they keep the low ammount of games they do now. 2 code S and 2 code A games lost and you are out.
but I like the scramble at the end. I think thats the only way to get the number of races even again. Previous format would take probably a year to accomplish this
I like that there's a much bigger variance on how many stay in Code S.
With the system that was last season, you'd have from 24 to 30 Code S players that would be Code S the season after. With the current system, you can have anywhere from 8 to 30 Code S players stay in Code S.
On October 28 2011 00:55 Engore wrote: That looks quite a bit better. I'm interested to see what happens now. Might have to borrow my brothers paypal and buy GSL nov so I can get the vods.
Only have one question right now. IdrA and Demuslim will be in the code A ro48 right? I guess they are going for GSL Nov. Or will they be the 2 international seeds that are put into up and downs?
From how I read it, they should be in ro48 since they have code A seeds. The 2 international spots are for people that GSL invites? Someone like WhiteRa if he wanted to go. Maybe PuMa? Or some other code B player that they think deserves a shot?
PuMa would not get the international spot, as he's a Korean player (one that failed in the first round of Code A qualifiers this month)
I would assume that IdrA and DeMusliM will end up starting in the Code A Ro48, that makes the most sense.
On October 28 2011 00:55 Engore wrote: That looks quite a bit better. I'm interested to see what happens now. Might have to borrow my brothers paypal and buy GSL nov so I can get the vods.
Only have one question right now. IdrA and Demuslim will be in the code A ro48 right? I guess they are going for GSL Nov. Or will they be the 2 international seeds that are put into up and downs?
From how I read it, they should be in ro48 since they have code A seeds. The 2 international spots are for people that GSL invites? Someone like WhiteRa if he wanted to go. Maybe PuMa? Or some other code B player that they think deserves a shot?
PuMa would not get the international spot, as he's a Korean player (one that failed in the first round of Code A qualifiers this month)
I would assume that IdrA and DeMusliM will end up starting in the Code A Ro48, that makes the most sense.
Idra/Demu could also end up as the two seeded Up and Down players.
Personally I'd like to see Idra/Jinro be the two seeded international players into up and downs because they both were code S material at one point. Or idra/(Sase/Nani) if Jinro wants to qualify normally (so sad he was 1 game away )
the first round of Code A (Ro48). The 24 losers are out of the GSL, they'll have to requalify.
This will hurt. A lot. It actually makes the title "in Code A" kind of pointless, unless you are Code A past first round. Code A is now more like a losers' bracket / open bracket for the GSL. Overall, I like the changes, they will make both Code S and Code A, as well as the Up-Down matches, a lot more entertaining.
The bottom listed 2 direct seeds for Code S make me wonder (MLG seeds just 1 Code S). Either the GSL is going to be twice as rare as MLG, so that 2 Code S seeds are gathered, or MLG will now seed 2 Code S players, or GSL will have a direct Code S seed from another tournament (IPL? NASL? etc).
So does this mean prizemoney from Code A and Code S for two seasons are combined into one (considering a tournament now lasts the period of 2 months)? I hope its spread more evenly if that's the case. I like how this gives more mening to the finals
On October 28 2011 01:00 Mephyss wrote: I dont like the idea of having a code S guy going to code B in the same season specially if they keep the low ammount of games they do now. 2 code S and 2 code A games lost and you are out.
Well you have to see, it's now also easier to get into Code S again.
The more I think about it the more I think the second Code S seed will go to whoever wins the major foriegn tournament of that month, wether its IPL, Dreamhack, IEM, NASL or whatever tourny happens at the right time.
On October 28 2011 00:55 Engore wrote: That looks quite a bit better. I'm interested to see what happens now. Might have to borrow my brothers paypal and buy GSL nov so I can get the vods.
Only have one question right now. IdrA and Demuslim will be in the code A ro48 right? I guess they are going for GSL Nov. Or will they be the 2 international seeds that are put into up and downs?
From how I read it, they should be in ro48 since they have code A seeds. The 2 international spots are for people that GSL invites? Someone like WhiteRa if he wanted to go. Maybe PuMa? Or some other code B player that they think deserves a shot?
PuMa would not get the international spot, as he's a Korean player (one that failed in the first round of Code A qualifiers this month)
I would assume that IdrA and DeMusliM will end up starting in the Code A Ro48, that makes the most sense.
Idra/Demu could also end up as the two seeded Up and Down players.
Personally I'd like to see Idra/Jinro be the two seeded international players into up and downs because they both were code S material at one point. Or idra/(Sase/Nani) if Jinro wants to qualify normally (so sad he was 1 game away )
I don't think IdrA/DeMusliM will be the two seeded Up and Down players, as they weren't the only two offered a Code A spot from MLG Orlando.
On October 28 2011 01:10 Thurken wrote: Will there be a code a champion? A code a final or something?
No. Code A is basically the loser's bracket of Code S now. Essentially, GOM streamlined GSL by smashing Code S and Code A together. Personally, I think this is a good idea because it will lead to much more variety in the matchups but it will also lead to a lot of instability (i.e. Code S champion can be knocked down to Code B very quickly if he's unlucky/slumping).
On October 28 2011 01:00 Mephyss wrote: I dont like the idea of having a code S guy going to code B in the same season specially if they keep the low ammount of games they do now. 2 code S and 2 code A games lost and you are out.
Well you have to see, it's now also easier to get into Code S again.
The big problem is that if you play poorly once and drop out of Code S, you have to wait a season to compete in it. It's not so bad when it was very difficult to drop out but now that it's easier, it's going to be a problem. Sure, it's easier to come back to Code S but why should a player who regained their form have to wait that long?
now there will be more balance of code S and code a with races and also it will be much more interesting because the risk of dropping out is much higher
On October 28 2011 00:55 Engore wrote: That looks quite a bit better. I'm interested to see what happens now. Might have to borrow my brothers paypal and buy GSL nov so I can get the vods.
Only have one question right now. IdrA and Demuslim will be in the code A ro48 right? I guess they are going for GSL Nov. Or will they be the 2 international seeds that are put into up and downs?
From how I read it, they should be in ro48 since they have code A seeds. The 2 international spots are for people that GSL invites? Someone like WhiteRa if he wanted to go. Maybe PuMa? Or some other code B player that they think deserves a shot?
PuMa would not get the international spot, as he's a Korean player (one that failed in the first round of Code A qualifiers this month)
I would assume that IdrA and DeMusliM will end up starting in the Code A Ro48, that makes the most sense.
Idra/Demu could also end up as the two seeded Up and Down players.
Personally I'd like to see Idra/Jinro be the two seeded international players into up and downs because they both were code S material at one point. Or idra/(Sase/Nani) if Jinro wants to qualify normally (so sad he was 1 game away )
I don't think IdrA/DeMusliM will be the two seeded Up and Down players, as they weren't the only two offered a Code A spot from MLG Orlando.
Unless liquipedia isn't updated MLG hasn't announced ANYONE getting code A spots from Raleigh. Also EG wasn't going to announce "Idra/Demuslim to Up/Down Matches" because a) They didn't want to rain on GSL's announcement parade b) They weren't aware of the format
Most likely a if that were the case
EDIT: Just read the GSL Nov. Page (I had been looking on MLG-GSL exchange page) and Sase/Nani are getting the code A seeds. This, to me, looks like stronger evidence to suggest Idra/Demu getting the up and down seeds.
It COULD work that 1st and 2nd highest placing foreigners Up and Down seed 3rd/4th Code A seed
On October 28 2011 00:55 Engore wrote: That looks quite a bit better. I'm interested to see what happens now. Might have to borrow my brothers paypal and buy GSL nov so I can get the vods.
Only have one question right now. IdrA and Demuslim will be in the code A ro48 right? I guess they are going for GSL Nov. Or will they be the 2 international seeds that are put into up and downs?
From how I read it, they should be in ro48 since they have code A seeds. The 2 international spots are for people that GSL invites? Someone like WhiteRa if he wanted to go. Maybe PuMa? Or some other code B player that they think deserves a shot?
PuMa would not get the international spot, as he's a Korean player (one that failed in the first round of Code A qualifiers this month)
I would assume that IdrA and DeMusliM will end up starting in the Code A Ro48, that makes the most sense.
Idra/Demu could also end up as the two seeded Up and Down players.
Personally I'd like to see Idra/Jinro be the two seeded international players into up and downs because they both were code S material at one point. Or idra/(Sase/Nani) if Jinro wants to qualify normally (so sad he was 1 game away )
I don't think IdrA/DeMusliM will be the two seeded Up and Down players, as they weren't the only two offered a Code A spot from MLG Orlando.
Unless liquipedia isn't updated MLG hasn't announced ANYONE getting code A spots from Raleigh. Also EG wasn't going to announce "Idra/Demuslim to Up/Down Matches" because a) They didn't want to rain on GSL's announcement parade b) They weren't aware of the format
Most likely a if that were the case
Liquipedia says Sase and Naniwa is in code A. Dunno about the up & down seeds tho
On October 28 2011 01:00 Mephyss wrote: I dont like the idea of having a code S guy going to code B in the same season specially if they keep the low ammount of games they do now. 2 code S and 2 code A games lost and you are out.
Well you have to see, it's now also easier to get into Code S again.
The big problem is that if you play poorly once and drop out of Code S, you have to wait a season to compete in it. It's not so bad when it was very difficult to drop out but now that it's easier, it's going to be a problem. Sure, it's easier to come back to Code S but why should a player who regained their form have to wait that long?
Because for a time they weren't Code S material? I think that's pretty self explanatory. If you play poorly enough to only drop down to Code A, and you retain Code A, you can be back in Code S next season, but if you're slumping hard enough to fall all the way out of the GSL, I think most players deserve a season without Code S, if they can re-qualify for Code A, and make it back into Code S the season after that, then they'll have regained their Code S status as a reward for the hard work.
On October 28 2011 01:10 Thurken wrote: Will there be a code a champion? A code a final or something?
No. Code A is basically the loser's bracket of Code S now. Essentially, GOM streamlined GSL by smashing Code S and Code A together. Personally, I think this is a good idea because it will lead to much more variety in the matchups but it will also lead to a lot of instability (i.e. Code S champion can be knocked down to Code B very quickly if he's unlucky/slumping).
Well i don't see it as a loser's bracket because usually there is a loser's bracket final and players from the loser bracket get a chance to go to the current winner bracket (and not the tournament a month after). I see it as a qualifier and that makes it less interesting to watch imo. But it may better for the players.
On October 28 2011 01:00 Mephyss wrote: I dont like the idea of having a code S guy going to code B in the same season specially if they keep the low ammount of games they do now. 2 code S and 2 code A games lost and you are out.
Well you have to see, it's now also easier to get into Code S again.
The big problem is that if you play poorly once and drop out of Code S, you have to wait a season to compete in it. It's not so bad when it was very difficult to drop out but now that it's easier, it's going to be a problem. Sure, it's easier to come back to Code S but why should a player who regained their form have to wait that long?
Because for a time they weren't Code S material? I think that's pretty self explanatory. If you play poorly enough to only drop down to Code A, and you retain Code A, you can be back in Code S next season, but if you're slumping hard enough to fall all the way out of the GSL, I think most players deserve a season without Code S, if they can re-qualify for Code A, and make it back into Code S the season after that, then they'll have regained their Code S status as a reward for the hard work.
By the looks of it, it will mean a lot less Terran Players in Code S. It seems like GomTV realized that many of the Code S Terrans would not be Code S at all if they played another race, just like one of the Code S players stated in the last group nominations. I love it :D
this seems good, should hopefully allow new players to get into code S. So only 8 out of the initial 32 code S players are definitiely gonna get a code S spot for next season? the 3rd and 4th from each group will go into the code A tournament at different stages? And the top 2 will play in another group stage? do we know how this stage is formed? is it 1st and 2nd from group A placed with 1st and 2nd of group B for example? Or would it be A and H?
looking forward to this, seems like theres alot more going on
On October 27 2011 19:39 nilssonen wrote: I feel its abit harsh to be able to drop "two" leagues in one season. Going 4th in Code S -> getting matched against a up&comer from Code B and losing will result in having to requailfy.
I feel that it should take 2 seasons to drop 2 leagues, but maybe thats just me
Meh. It goes both ways. A player who came from the code a qualifiers could easily make Code S.
Either way, Falling totally out of GSL is probably not gonna happen often. I expect at least 25 Code S players to return to Code S for January
Seems like a good change. Glad they tried to do something to reduce the bottleneck for Code S. The only thing I will miss out on is some epic Code A finals we've had.
OMG are you guys thinking properly? This format is terrible. Imagine Nestea has a bad week and he loses his group in code s (maybe he happened to have the toughest group or something). he gets sent down to code a first round. Now he gets cheesed out or happens to play a really good player like sage and loses a close series. boom nestea is out of gsl. lol this format is garbage.
also with this format, who exactly is code S and code A? If you're a code s player and then lose in the second round (thus being sent down to code a) does that make you code A or code S? Lol this is very weird.
Overall what i think is happening here is that gsl wants more diversity (less terrans?) and turnover in their tournament. That may sound appealing but what they really are doing is making the gsl more random. Code S will no longer represent the best players in the world but rather the hottest players of recent, or the players who were able to get favorable matchups along the way.
It blows. A player can - starting in Code S - disappear from GSL completely in a matter of three matches (4 sets? 2 loses in Code S and then a lose in Code A Ro48 which is Bo3?). On the other hand in order to get to Code S it's hard work: qualifiers and Code A. So one season slump to be out and two seasons to get back in?
Second - why there is this silly separation Code A/Code S? Why can't a player have just one, long, great run from qualifiers to the very final? Why it is forbidden for a player to have one short peak of efficiency which will bring him (or her) ultimate trophy?
Seriously though, I think it would be a bit better if you couldn't drop to code B in one season. On the other hand, code A being group play could be a big improvement, so we'll see.
Ironic note, with no code A finals, are all Gom TV finals doomed to mediocrity now?
On October 28 2011 01:32 RedMosquito wrote: OMG are you guys thinking properly? This format is terrible. Imagine Nestea has a bad week and he loses his group in code s (maybe he happened to have the toughest group or something). he gets sent down to code a first round. Now he gets cheesed out or happens to play a really good player like sage and loses a close series. boom nestea is out of gsl. lol this format is garbage.
also with this format, who exactly is code S and code A? If you're a code s player and then lose in the second round (thus being sent down to code a) does that make you code A or code S? Lol this is very weird.
Overall what i think is happening here is that gsl wants more diversity (less terrans?) and turnover in their tournament. That may sound appealing but what they really are doing is making the gsl more random. Code S will no longer represent the best players in the world but rather the hottest players of recent, or the players who were able to get favorable matchups along the way.
I agree!
They could use some already tested format: double elimination, single elimination, swiss Bo3 system with playoffs for top4 players or something like this. Geez. Even MLG copy - but more stretched in time - would be great.
On October 27 2011 19:06 HwangjaeTerran wrote: [...] So each season 24 players can get kicked out of the GSL. Up to 8 Code S players can end up in Code B too (previously they could only drop down to Code A).
Well i cant really see a Code S player not make top3 his group in code S (make last place) and tehn lose code a ... well
i think ro48 in code A have to be groups then its perfect !
Looks to me like st adjust is also meant to shake up the code s tournament with a much higher turnover of 3:1 rather than 2:1. Which makes sense seeing how long it would take for all the terrans to drop from code s given the current format. The compensation by adding more safety nets in code a is good one and we likely won't see good players drop to code b often and will see plenty of games from good up and comers.
One thing we really haven't pointed out is that it's FAR easier to go from Code A to Code S, now.
Previously, you had to win 2 Bo3s to make Up & Downs. Then win, effectively, another 2 Bo3s (that are harder to prepare for) in the Up & Down matches. Or win 5 series to win all of Code A.
Now, after qualifying, you simply need to:
- Win Ro48 Code A - Win Ro32 Code A - Win Ro24 Code A
Then you're in Code S. Though the quality of players will be higher, generally.
But! If you at least win Ro48, you are in the Up & Down matches. So, a WHOLE lot more chances to go to Code S.
However, Ro48 Code A is going to be the most brutal thing around. Real "1 and done" scenario. Though with 20 new Code A spots via the Qualifiers + ESV online tournament + other invites, it's also easier to get back in.
Edit:
Another way to think about it: Win 3 Bo3 and you get 1500 USD (Code S spot payout for next season). That's a good bit better reason to justify the time over there for the tournament, now.
On October 28 2011 01:32 RedMosquito wrote: OMG are you guys thinking properly? This format is terrible. Imagine Nestea has a bad week and he loses his group in code s (maybe he happened to have the toughest group or something). he gets sent down to code a first round. Now he gets cheesed out or happens to play a really good player like sage and loses a close series. boom nestea is out of gsl. lol this format is garbage.
also with this format, who exactly is code S and code A? If you're a code s player and then lose in the second round (thus being sent down to code a) does that make you code A or code S? Lol this is very weird.
Overall what i think is happening here is that gsl wants more diversity (less terrans?) and turnover in their tournament. That may sound appealing but what they really are doing is making the gsl more random. Code S will no longer represent the best players in the world but rather the hottest players of recent, or the players who were able to get favorable matchups along the way.
I agree!
They could use some already tested format: double elimination, single elimination, swiss Bo3 system with playoffs for top4 players or something like this. Geez. Even MLG copy - but more stretched in time - would be great.
I totally agree with both of you.
At least a player like Sage will have a better chance to get in code now.
On October 28 2011 01:00 Mephyss wrote: I dont like the idea of having a code S guy going to code B in the same season specially if they keep the low ammount of games they do now. 2 code S and 2 code A games lost and you are out.
Well you have to see, it's now also easier to get into Code S again.
The big problem is that if you play poorly once and drop out of Code S, you have to wait a season to compete in it. It's not so bad when it was very difficult to drop out but now that it's easier, it's going to be a problem. Sure, it's easier to come back to Code S but why should a player who regained their form have to wait that long?
Because for a time they weren't Code S material? I think that's pretty self explanatory. If you play poorly enough to only drop down to Code A, and you retain Code A, you can be back in Code S next season, but if you're slumping hard enough to fall all the way out of the GSL, I think most players deserve a season without Code S, if they can re-qualify for Code A, and make it back into Code S the season after that, then they'll have regained their Code S status as a reward for the hard work.
You're keeping players on the sidelines once they regain their form by having them compete solely in matches that are pretty meaningless in determining that season's champion. There's a huge possibility that players at their best form would be unable to compete for the Code S championship. As we've seen time and time again, there's not that big a skill difference between Code A and S.
The Colts are the worst team in the NFL right now after years of making the playoffs with double digit victories. Assuming Manning comes back next year as good as ever, should they really have to wait until the 2013-2014 season to compete for the Super Bowl?
makes so much more sense then before. But is group stage as bad as it was last time making people advance while being 1-1 tied for no reason other then luck of the draw?
On October 28 2011 01:32 RedMosquito wrote: OMG are you guys thinking properly? This format is terrible. Imagine Nestea has a bad week and he loses his group in code s (maybe he happened to have the toughest group or something). he gets sent down to code a first round. Now he gets cheesed out or happens to play a really good player like sage and loses a close series. boom nestea is out of gsl. lol this format is garbage.
also with this format, who exactly is code S and code A? If you're a code s player and then lose in the second round (thus being sent down to code a) does that make you code A or code S? Lol this is very weird.
Overall what i think is happening here is that gsl wants more diversity (less terrans?) and turnover in their tournament. That may sound appealing but what they really are doing is making the gsl more random. Code S will no longer represent the best players in the world but rather the hottest players of recent, or the players who were able to get favorable matchups along the way.
with old system i would have stopped paying for GSL i not even watched more then 1/8 of the code S games last season and i pay for it since open season 1 GSL code S was the most boring thing in god damn universe and one more tvt semis would have let me jump into a river
it was BORING man... god damn boring
who cares who is code S or A you can SEE it, you cant go up from B to win code S in 1 season buts is possible to down from code S to B yes, but then nestea would also have to not be top8 last season, otherwise he would be able to pick his 1. round enemy where he should at least get 1 win in the group!
you not think about the seeding cause with that the good players always have a relative easy opponent or was to arrogant to choose one like MC choosed Polt etc.
god i cant describe how much i like the new system
The only thing I don't like about this is the lack of finals for Code A. If you're not going to play out the bracket to the end, why call it Code A? Why not just call it extended Code S qualifiers, or something?
Very smart of GOM to do this. Not only do you get to watch "Code S" players play more games potentially, you get to follow a specific player if he stumbles early in Code S that month and immediately follow his uphill climb in Code A or his immediate exit into Code B. This will definitely get me following the games a bit more.
Just the fact that Code S now is constantly feeding the Code A brackets each round makes it feel more exciting. Thumbs up!
also i like the "drama" factor, someone epic from S to B ? nice someone garbage from S to B ? thanks we no need him longer in A anyways
its always good storys its drama its action its ... we not need more boring things ! this is great !
imagine, nestea last his group then fight trough half code A but then he gets cheesed and is in the up and down games where he make top2 and get a code S seed for next season DRAMA !
I hate the format, especially the random seeded 2 "international players" into the up/down.
to stay in code S you have to make it to round of 8, that's too harsh; especially if you have a tough ro32 group or if you face someone very difficult at ro16. For example, Nestea and MVP can face each other in the round of 16 (it's happened before).
This format will be a lot better once the group stages are Bo3. Bo1 group stages aren't fun for the viewers or the players. Having so much ride on a single match just makes things more prone to cheese and nerves.
I do like how Code A is now essentially a qualifying round, it makes that part of the tournament more intense as most people in it were really just competing for the Up and Down matches anyway. This just simplifies that process.
On October 28 2011 01:51 illsick wrote: I hate the format, especially the random seeded 2 "international players" into the up/down.
to stay in code S you have to make it to round of 8, that's too harsh; especially if you have a tough ro32 group or if you face someone very difficult at ro16. For example, Nestea and MVP can face each other in the round of 16 (it's happened before).
And then he only needs to win 1-2 bo3s depending on if he was knocked out in ro32 or ro16 to stay in Code S, and if he loses the ro16 there's another shot in the up downs.
Barring code A ro48 there's A LOT of cushioning and ways to get yourself back in
On October 28 2011 01:51 illsick wrote: I hate the format, especially the random seeded 2 "international players" into the up/down.
to stay in code S you have to make it to round of 8, that's too harsh; especially if you have a tough ro32 group or if you face someone very difficult at ro16. For example, Nestea and MVP can face each other in the round of 16 (it's happened before).
Then they fight their way up through the code A bracket back into Code S for next season.
This format is good. It's gonna make alot of interesting stories. Im pumped for this GSL. Hopefully team league will be epic again also.
I like the new format overall, but I think they went a little bit overboard with the "lets remove the code s bottleneck". 3rd place in ro16 should get a code s spot imo.
Also, the possibility of dropping out to code b in one season is a little bit harsh. But all things considered i like this format. Its a big improvement.
hating it.... its already incredibly hard to quialify for code A but now if you have a small slump you can easily just end up in code B in one season...
On October 28 2011 01:51 illsick wrote: I hate the format, especially the random seeded 2 "international players" into the up/down.
to stay in code S you have to make it to round of 8, that's too harsh; especially if you have a tough ro32 group or if you face someone very difficult at ro16. For example, Nestea and MVP can face each other in the round of 16 (it's happened before).
The old system was way to forgiving and allowed bad players "float" in code S for too long.
Invite slots are common with most tournaments. The format is long enough without the international players having stay for an extra month to qualify through code B. And anything that gets fresh faces into the GSL is good. This will give Sage and JYP a chance to be on the main stage.
My problem with the GSL format has always been that someone who gets knocked out of Code A is with overwhelming probability never heard from again because qualifying is (a) hard as nails and (b) subject to huge amounts of variance.
These two things conspire to make the sensible life-choice to just dump the game if you get knocked out, and thus we're rarely if ever going to see the story of the "comeback kid" in the GSL. Look at the OSL. It has recently had this amazing story about Jangbi coming back from one of the deepest slumps ever to win a title, and this is something I can never see happening with the way that qualifying for the GSL is set up.
On October 28 2011 01:47 CoR wrote: also i like the "drama" factor, someone epic from S to B ? nice someone garbage from S to B ? thanks we no need him longer in A anyways
its always good storys its drama its action its ... we not need more boring things ! this is great !
imagine, nestea last his group then fight trough half code A but then he gets cheesed and is in the up and down games where he make top2 and get a code S seed for next season DRAMA !
Love the changes. Yeah, it'll make Code S a lot more volatile, and it's likely we'll see some of our favorites fall from grace. But new heroes will rise, etc., etc.
Plus, there's going to be a ton MORE GAMES. How could anyone be upset about that?
Even though I LOVED GomTvT (this past GSL was one of the best, even with the racial imbalance), this will be great for ESPORTS.
On October 28 2011 01:58 Panzamelano wrote: hating it.... its already incredibly hard to quialify for code A but now if you have a small slump you can easily just end up in code B in one season...
It does however make qualifying for Code S easier than before.
Which in turn makes qualifying for Code A worth more to begin with.
Before, players that qualified from Code B, were basically just stuck in limbo unless they got really lucky in Code A or were just incredibly talented.
The Up and Down matches created such a bottleneck from Code A to Code S that only 6 new players per season could ever move up, with this format once you're in Code A you are instantly playing for the money spot in Code S and that's awesome.
On October 28 2011 01:51 illsick wrote: I hate the format, especially the random seeded 2 "international players" into the up/down.
to stay in code S you have to make it to round of 8, that's too harsh; especially if you have a tough ro32 group or if you face someone very difficult at ro16. For example, Nestea and MVP can face each other in the round of 16 (it's happened before).
Ok and if they are Code S caliber players they should have problem going through Code A and making it to Code S Ro32 again. If Nestea or MVP drop down to Code A and then immediately get the boot to Code B, then they obviously shouldn't of stayed in Code S. I don't care if they got cheesed twice, so have a ton of people who aren't named MVP and Nestea. Don't worry so much about the individual players you can't control their play or their matches, this format is brutal since you constantly have to be on the ball or you'll find yourself back in Code B. That is GREAT, the more that's on the line the more players will practice and hopefully give us better games. Remember how people use to say how much of a joke lower round Code A games use to be? Not anymore when it's formerly Code S players about to be sent to Code B if they lose.
I love the simplification by Choboo But overall I like the format I think that staying in Code S is going to be harder - you really have to prove yourself It also gives more players a chance at advancing to Code S, or even A for that matter
On October 27 2011 18:35 Lunares wrote: Nice explanation. So all of the group stages are the 1v2, 3v4, winner vs winner, loser vs loser, final match to determine #2? All Bo1 is a bit sketchy though....
very simple to understand. its much better than the old format. this way the good players will stay in code s and the mediocre ones will bounce around.
So in essence, they are trying to get lesser terrans out of code S and into Code A/B. I like it, as much as I love TvT, it's happening too much in Code S
Initially, I thought this was a good idea. Then I thought about it some more, and I ... don't really like it. It promotes way too much randomness. Don't even really know what "Code S" means anymore, either; just starting up in the regular bracket as opposed to the Loser's Bracket? Eh.
I have a feeling this will turn out to be awesome! Time will tell... but the idea of Code S RO32 losers actually dropping out of GSL in the same season is just exciting.
IMO this seems like a good compromise between the double-elimination system used by other tournaments (which works quite well; look at the Blizzcon extended series final!) and GSL's traditional format.
It seems like they could have easily just made the bottom 16 instead of bottom 8 from Code S go to up and downs to fix the problem. Instead they've basically made Code A not a tournament and made it so you can get dropped completely out of GSL after 2 days of bad games.
I don't know why so many people think it's awesome you can get booted out of GSL completely after a couple of days. Everyone has a bad showing every once and a while and this seems to make it way too stressful on the players.
On October 28 2011 01:59 Infenwe wrote: My problem with the GSL format has always been that someone who gets knocked out of Code A is with overwhelming probability never heard from again because qualifying is (a) hard as nails and (b) subject to huge amounts of variance.
These two things conspire to make the sensible life-choice to just dump the game if you get knocked out, and thus we're rarely if ever going to see the story of the "comeback kid" in the GSL. Look at the OSL. It has recently had this amazing story about Jangbi coming back from one of the deepest slumps ever to win a title, and this is something I can never see happening with the way that qualifying for the GSL is set up.
They opened up 4 more spots for the prelims and tbh most of the good players are already in Code A/S, just look at the playerlist for this season's prelims.
i dont like that code a is now basically just a qualifying tournament for code s, preferred the old system (with some tweaks to make it more difficult to stay in code s of course).
I'd rather they let code A play out till we get a winner just like a normal league. The second division to Code S' premier division..
I'm wondering if this will lead to prize money re-distribution then, as people will no longer "finish" in certain rounds of Code S but instead continue on into Code A to potentially earn more prize money.
I love it otherwise though. It's going to really shake stuff up.
Edit: Though I do feel that they should have a R12+-> for Code A still. Good games are good games, they should be played for money.
With the seed foreign players, I thought that the MLG guaranteed them a GSL Code A spot and they did not have to compete in the open tournament. If that is not the case than the GSL Code A spot offer in the MLG is pretty close to worthless, since most of those players could just travel there and qualify on their own. Can anyone help explain to me where Naniwa and Idra would fit in?
The more I look at it the more I like it. At first I thought it was a little bit off the wall and crazy, but once I sat down and really thought about it I came to the conclusion that it's going to make every game matter a lot more than it used to (and those games did matter, though some more than others). I could be wrong and it might suck, but you don't know until you try it.
That said, the previous season of the GSL started to show some promise of better racial balance and Code S turn over with a lot of Terrans/scrubs (those who were simply treading water and not improving) dropping out and other races/players coming up. So I am tempted to say that maybe this change came a little too soon and they should have given the previous system a little more time.
Really good changes, only thing left to add is BO3 to group stages and it is a completely balanced system!
Code A always was a qualifying tournment, that basically only leaded you to another qualifier round (up$downs), now this is changed with 12 direct code s seeds (well i'm assuming some will be code s players), but actually now the Code A players have more changes to prove themselves to be better or deserving code S.
And Code B got easier with 20 spots prelims! It will be more based in luck than anything else! (easier or harder bracket)
I really like this. Even though code A is basically a qualifier I think it will be quite exciting, and I think we will see plenty of new faces.
Also notice, with the 2 seeded international players going directly to up and downs, those players will have a direct shot at code S, albeit it will be next season's code S.
this is awesome, more chances for players to get into code S, and also more chances for players to drop down to code A. Code S players obvisously has the better advantage of competing in code A if they do drop down. This means less down time for players who get knock out early. Downside could be less players competing in the foreign tournament. However, majority of the players in korea doesnt have the oppurtunity to play in foreign tournament anyway.
Agree with most comments. I like it but gonna miss the Code A finals. Still feel like they should put it in. Maybe give them different group seedings to the winner?
So I did a little math and came up with the new expected values. Assuming that the odds of a Code S player against a code A player is roughyl 50%. (More likely it's closer to 55%), then this is what the difference in the format produces.
F stands for Foreign tournament invite.
Previous GSL System Expected Turnover
S -> S 27.2 S -> A 4.8 S -> B 0 A -> S 3.8 A -> A 20.2 A -> B 16 B -> A 12 F -> S 1 F -> A 4
New GSL System Expected Turnover
S -> S 19.3 S -> A 7.7 S -> B 4 A -> S 10 A -> A 10 A -> B 20 F -> S 2.7 F -> A 1.3
This means that staying in Code S is a lot harder than before and we should expect quite a high number of Code S player to suddenly drop to Code A and even a few to Code B. The number advancing from A to S is much higher though.
The new format is interesting, but I believe similar results can happen with a much simpler format.
Loved that new system so much. Will make possible to bring new blood around and to stay in Code S they need to fight. Also once a player you like get knocked out early on Code S you will still be able to see him play on Code A instead of waiting a whole season to see him play again.
i made a thread a while ago almost outlining how a new system such as this would be great for the GSL, however one problem
in my thread i said that it would make it way more exciting if the top2 code a players, after advancing far enough, could somehow get placed into the code S ro2 with the top4 code S players. then you play a new ro4 with 2 Code S players and 2 Code A players and have a nice fun underdog/favorite matchup and then you might get the possibility of some Code A player running through everything and winning the tournament
that would be a exciting possibility but this format doesnt allow this sadly
Little disappointing that there won't be a code A final anymore; but other than that I like it.
Not sure why they couldn't have the top 12 in code A continue playing to determine a champion even if they all still make code S (winning code A could just be some prize money to give players incentive to keep playing even after they're guaranteed their code S spot).
Not sure if this will help anyone else, but it helped me. It's a link I found on reddit, does a really good job explaining, in image form, what this post explains.
Interesting. I wonder how they determine which code a players will play code s players because presumably the code s player should be stronger, so some people in code a get the harder bracket.
On October 28 2011 03:06 darmousseh wrote: So I did a little math and came up with the new expected values. Assuming that the odds of a Code S player against a code A player is roughyl 50%. (More likely it's closer to 55%), then this is what the difference in the format produces.
F stands for Foreign tournament invite.
Previous GSL System Expected Turnover
S -> S 27.2 S -> A 4.8 S -> B 0 A -> S 3.8 A -> A 20.2 A -> B 16 B -> A 12 F -> S 1 F -> A 4
New GSL System Expected Turnover
S -> S 19.3 S -> A 7.7 S -> B 4 A -> S 10 A -> A 10 A -> B 20 F -> S 2.7 F -> A 1.3
This means that staying in Code S is a lot harder than before and we should expect quite a high number of Code S player to suddenly drop to Code A and even a few to Code B. The number advancing from A to S is much higher though.
The new format is interesting, but I believe similar results can happen with a much simpler format.
The 50% assumption seems really silly. You have everyone but the top 8 code s players against code a players. Looking at last season, that's people like Bomber and HuK.
Regardless how confusing it may be to some of you, the important thing is is that GSL is finally changing their format to help sc2 grow in Korea. That is why it is important, and that is why you should like it. Change leads to new and great things. Until something ain't broke don't fix it, but when something is hurting and bleeding put a band aid on it.
Alicia looks like he might be going back down to Code B. FD apparently feels that his ZvP is his best match-up now -- and it's certainly not horrendous anymore -- and Alicia's PvZ has always been ... suspect at best. Hmmm.
Cool, so only the top 8 of code s are truly safe to remain in code s? This might get me interested in paying for the GSL again... maybe it even won't be a terranfest after a few seasons of this.
On October 28 2011 03:06 darmousseh wrote: So I did a little math and came up with the new expected values. Assuming that the odds of a Code S player against a code A player is roughyl 50%. (More likely it's closer to 55%), then this is what the difference in the format produces.
F stands for Foreign tournament invite.
Previous GSL System Expected Turnover
S -> S 27.2 S -> A 4.8 S -> B 0 A -> S 3.8 A -> A 20.2 A -> B 16 B -> A 12 F -> S 1 F -> A 4
New GSL System Expected Turnover
S -> S 19.3 S -> A 7.7 S -> B 4 A -> S 10 A -> A 10 A -> B 20 F -> S 2.7 F -> A 1.3
This means that staying in Code S is a lot harder than before and we should expect quite a high number of Code S player to suddenly drop to Code A and even a few to Code B. The number advancing from A to S is much higher though.
The new format is interesting, but I believe similar results can happen with a much simpler format.
The 50% assumption seems really silly. You have everyone but the top 8 code s players against code a players. Looking at last season, that's people like Bomber and HuK.
Look at all of the up and down matches. It's actually really close to 50%. If you assume that it's 55% then it might change the results slightly, but otherwise assuming 50% is fine for my example.
edit; Lol, I couldn't be more wrong. Code A players have a 63%! winrate in up and down matches against code S players lol. Considering that a lot more code S players (and the better players too, not just the ones that lost in ro32) I think that 50% is fair.
MVPKeen vs TSLRevival (Hoping Revival wins this one, not because I don't like Keen, but because I like Revival, sad that one of these players has to go.)
iSCrazymoving vs Liquid`Hero (As much as I want Crazymoving to do well, HerO needs to win, sorry)
Code S Group B 4th vs MVPGuineaPig
ST_Superstar vs SlayerSBrown (?) (RandomVampire FTW)
ST_Fruitdealer vs SlayerSAlicia (I'm 50/50 on this one, but I really don't want the first GSL champion to fall out of Code A)
Code S Group C 4th vs CreatorPrime
oGsTOP vs ST_Parting (TOP fell from Code S the season after making it to the finals, I really hope he doesn't fall out)
NsHsTassadar vs DignitasSelect (SeleCT! Foreigner Korean, keep your Code A spot again!)
Code S Group D 4th vs oGsCezanne
MVPGenius vs TSLSymbol (Genius should win this one, but I don't know much about Symbol)
NsHsSage vs oGsFin (Sage vs fOrGG?! Why would you do this to me GOM! May the better player win, although I think Sage deserves it more.)
Code S Group E 4th vs ST_Rainbow
TSL_JYP vs Quantic Sase (SaSe keeps impressing me recently, I hope he can beat JYP, as much as I like JYP)
FXOLucky vs DignitasNaniwa (Lucky is a good player, and I would not be surprised if he wins, but I'm cheering for Naniwa)
Code S Group F 4th vs Soccer
HongunPrime vs oGsLuvsic (CarrierKingPrime CANNOT fall out of Code A)
MVPNoblesse vs oGsInca (If InCa has really improved his non-vP matchups, I hope he sticks around)
Code S Group G 4th vs oGsVines
CheckPrime vs ST_Squirtle (CheckPrime has this pretty easy)
MVPMonster vs oGsJookto (Jookto needs to win, Monster killed MC, so he needs to die)
Code S Group H 4th vs oGsTheSTC
MVPDream vs SlayerSBoxer (BOXER)
oGsZenio vs (Teamless) Jung Min Ho (I want the teamless guy to win.)
On October 28 2011 03:06 darmousseh wrote: So I did a little math and came up with the new expected values. Assuming that the odds of a Code S player against a code A player is roughyl 50%. (More likely it's closer to 55%), then this is what the difference in the format produces.
F stands for Foreign tournament invite.
Previous GSL System Expected Turnover
S -> S 27.2 S -> A 4.8 S -> B 0 A -> S 3.8 A -> A 20.2 A -> B 16 B -> A 12 F -> S 1 F -> A 4
New GSL System Expected Turnover
S -> S 19.3 S -> A 7.7 S -> B 4 A -> S 10 A -> A 10 A -> B 20 F -> S 2.7 F -> A 1.3
This means that staying in Code S is a lot harder than before and we should expect quite a high number of Code S player to suddenly drop to Code A and even a few to Code B. The number advancing from A to S is much higher though.
The new format is interesting, but I believe similar results can happen with a much simpler format.
The 50% assumption seems really silly. You have everyone but the top 8 code s players against code a players. Looking at last season, that's people like Bomber and HuK.
Look at all of the up and down matches. It's actually really close to 50%. If you assume that it's 55% then it might change the results slightly, but otherwise assuming 50% is fine for my example.
In the current up and down it's the bottom 8 people in Code S. In the new system it'll be the bottom 24.
This is a good change, but part me of is curious why they don't just change GSL into a double elimination similar to MLG.
The advantages of being in code s: - Only Code S players have the potential to win the tournament - You get to play 2 sets of group stages instead of a traditional bo3 sets that Code A is still going through.
I suppose now you have to be really good at all matchups, instead of someone winning code S because he is a XvT sniper in the terran filled code S.
Not having code A finals kind of suck too, as Code A finals have been traditionally a lot more entertaining than the Code S finals.
This is definitely a really cool format, it really shows the best can stay in Code S, while those that aren't performing might drop down to Code B. It shows a great mix of players, if you don't do well in pools against Code S players, you see how well you perform against the current Code A.
Only downsides I see: No Code A Finals. (Heck even no Code A Ro12. Code A is more of a "AHH JUST MAKE IT PAST THE NEXT ROUND survival" than a tournament.) No difference in losing in the Ro32 and Ro24 in Code A. If you lose in Ro32, you go to Up and Downs with no advantage/disadvantages than those that lost in Ro24.
On October 28 2011 03:06 darmousseh wrote: So I did a little math and came up with the new expected values. Assuming that the odds of a Code S player against a code A player is roughyl 50%. (More likely it's closer to 55%), then this is what the difference in the format produces.
F stands for Foreign tournament invite.
Previous GSL System Expected Turnover
S -> S 27.2 S -> A 4.8 S -> B 0 A -> S 3.8 A -> A 20.2 A -> B 16 B -> A 12 F -> S 1 F -> A 4
New GSL System Expected Turnover
S -> S 19.3 S -> A 7.7 S -> B 4 A -> S 10 A -> A 10 A -> B 20 F -> S 2.7 F -> A 1.3
This means that staying in Code S is a lot harder than before and we should expect quite a high number of Code S player to suddenly drop to Code A and even a few to Code B. The number advancing from A to S is much higher though.
The new format is interesting, but I believe similar results can happen with a much simpler format.
The 50% assumption seems really silly. You have everyone but the top 8 code s players against code a players. Looking at last season, that's people like Bomber and HuK.
Look at all of the up and down matches. It's actually really close to 50%. If you assume that it's 55% then it might change the results slightly, but otherwise assuming 50% is fine for my example.
In the current up and down it's the bottom 8 people in Code S. In the new system it'll be the bottom 24.
Read my edit. Code A win 63% of the time against code S players in up and down matches. I think 50-55% assumption is good enough. Anyway, the point of my exercise is to determine expected turnover and it's likely to be a lot higher than before.
On October 28 2011 03:06 darmousseh wrote: So I did a little math and came up with the new expected values. Assuming that the odds of a Code S player against a code A player is roughyl 50%. (More likely it's closer to 55%), then this is what the difference in the format produces.
F stands for Foreign tournament invite.
Previous GSL System Expected Turnover
S -> S 27.2 S -> A 4.8 S -> B 0 A -> S 3.8 A -> A 20.2 A -> B 16 B -> A 12 F -> S 1 F -> A 4
New GSL System Expected Turnover
S -> S 19.3 S -> A 7.7 S -> B 4 A -> S 10 A -> A 10 A -> B 20 F -> S 2.7 F -> A 1.3
This means that staying in Code S is a lot harder than before and we should expect quite a high number of Code S player to suddenly drop to Code A and even a few to Code B. The number advancing from A to S is much higher though.
The new format is interesting, but I believe similar results can happen with a much simpler format.
The 50% assumption seems really silly. You have everyone but the top 8 code s players against code a players. Looking at last season, that's people like Bomber and HuK.
Look at all of the up and down matches. It's actually really close to 50%. If you assume that it's 55% then it might change the results slightly, but otherwise assuming 50% is fine for my example.
In the current up and down it's the bottom 8 people in Code S. In the new system it'll be the bottom 24.
Read my edit. Code A win 63% of the time against code S players in up and down matches. I think 50-55% assumption is good enough. Anyway, the point of my exercise is to determine expected turnover and it's likely to be a lot higher than before.
I think his point was code a players had a 63% win rate against the bottom 8 code s players. Now they will be facing the bottom 24 code s players, so a lot stronger code s competition.
On October 28 2011 03:16 price wrote: i'm glad the tech trees are not this complicated :|
Think about it like a road map. You don't pre-consider every single route from every possible Point A to every possible Point B. You just learn the routes enough that you can work out how to get from any Point A to Point B at the time you actually need to.
for foreigners qualifying through MLG, etc., they are no longer offered a spot in the tournament, but rather have to qualify through the up and down matches? so, if you get a spot through MLG, go to Korea and lose in the up and downs, you never even get the opportunity to play in the real tournament? is that correct?
thats pretty jacked up in my opinion. korean invites auto get put in group stages for MLG, but foreigners only get the opportunity to qualify for GSL. seems to me that there will be even less incentive for foreigners going to korea.
also, how long between up and down matches and the next code s? if foreigner wins the up and down, does he then have to stay X weeks before he gets to play in the next tournament?
seems like koreans are getting the better bargain on the MLG-GSL exchange.
What exactly is the idea of seeding foreigners into the up and downs already? It doesn't seem right at all. Give them code A seeds sure but to let them essentially skip the first round is just catering too much to them.
On October 28 2011 03:39 dAPhREAk wrote: am i reading this correctly?
for foreigners qualifying through MLG, etc., they are no longer offered a spot in the tournament, but rather have to qualify through the up and down matches? so, if you get a spot through MLG, go to Korea and lose in the up and downs, you never even get the opportunity to play in the real tournament? is that correct?
thats pretty jacked up in my opinion. korean invites auto get put in group stages for MLG, but foreigners only get the opportunity to qualify for GSL. seems to me that there will be even less incentive for foreigners going to korea.
also, how long between up and down matches and the next code s? if foreigner wins the up and down, does he then have to stay X weeks before he gets to play in the next tournament?
seems like koreans are getting the better bargain on the MLG-GSL exchange.
No. If you lose in the Up & Downs you go down to Code A.
The only thing that's changed is that instead of automatically playing in Code A, you play a few matches to determine whether you get to play in Code S or Code A.
Somehow Code A became some sort of "loser bracket" for Code S wich helps to really define those from Code A that deserve to go right away to Code S and solves many unfair situations.
Now it's going to be hard to stay in Code S since there are 22 chances to get there from Code A + Up/Down Matches.
On October 28 2011 03:39 dAPhREAk wrote: am i reading this correctly?
for foreigners qualifying through MLG, etc., they are no longer offered a spot in the tournament, but rather have to qualify through the up and down matches? so, if you get a spot through MLG, go to Korea and lose in the up and downs, you never even get the opportunity to play in the real tournament? is that correct?
thats pretty jacked up in my opinion. korean invites auto get put in group stages for MLG, but foreigners only get the opportunity to qualify for GSL. seems to me that there will be even less incentive for foreigners going to korea.
also, how long between up and down matches and the next code s? if foreigner wins the up and down, does he then have to stay X weeks before he gets to play in the next tournament?
seems like koreans are getting the better bargain on the MLG-GSL exchange.
No. If you lose in the Up & Downs you go down to Code A.
The only thing that's changed is that instead of automatically playing in Code A, you play a few matches to determine whether you get to play in Code S or Code A.
awww, ic. that makes sense.
one concern i have still is that they are essentially qualifying for the next season of code s or a. so, how long do they have to stay in the country before they get the opportunity to make some real money?
On October 28 2011 03:39 dAPhREAk wrote: am i reading this correctly?
for foreigners qualifying through MLG, etc., they are no longer offered a spot in the tournament, but rather have to qualify through the up and down matches? so, if you get a spot through MLG, go to Korea and lose in the up and downs, you never even get the opportunity to play in the real tournament? is that correct?
thats pretty jacked up in my opinion. korean invites auto get put in group stages for MLG, but foreigners only get the opportunity to qualify for GSL. seems to me that there will be even less incentive for foreigners going to korea.
also, how long between up and down matches and the next code s? if foreigner wins the up and down, does he then have to stay X weeks before he gets to play in the next tournament?
seems like koreans are getting the better bargain on the MLG-GSL exchange.
No. If you lose in the Up & Downs you go down to Code A.
The only thing that's changed is that instead of automatically playing in Code A, you play a few matches to determine whether you get to play in Code S or Code A.
awww, ic. that makes sense.
one concern i have still is that they are essentially qualifying for the next season of code s or a. so, how long do they have to stay in the country before they get the opportunity to make some real money?
tbh no foreigner has made any real money off GSL. they're in korea for korea, GSL is just a bonus.
On October 28 2011 03:39 dAPhREAk wrote: am i reading this correctly?
for foreigners qualifying through MLG, etc., they are no longer offered a spot in the tournament, but rather have to qualify through the up and down matches? so, if you get a spot through MLG, go to Korea and lose in the up and downs, you never even get the opportunity to play in the real tournament? is that correct?
thats pretty jacked up in my opinion. korean invites auto get put in group stages for MLG, but foreigners only get the opportunity to qualify for GSL. seems to me that there will be even less incentive for foreigners going to korea.
also, how long between up and down matches and the next code s? if foreigner wins the up and down, does he then have to stay X weeks before he gets to play in the next tournament?
seems like koreans are getting the better bargain on the MLG-GSL exchange.
No. If you lose in the Up & Downs you go down to Code A.
The only thing that's changed is that instead of automatically playing in Code A, you play a few matches to determine whether you get to play in Code S or Code A.
awww, ic. that makes sense.
one concern i have still is that they are essentially qualifying for the next season of code s or a. so, how long do they have to stay in the country before they get the opportunity to make some real money?
Just the pre-season. Now The Up&Down are the week after the Code S finals, so one or two weeks before next GSL.
I like it, i'm just sad that Code A doesnt have a Final anymore, i have always enjoyed it thus far! it wouldn't hurt anybody to have the Code A Bracket be played out till the end and have some Prizes for it...
edit: oh, and its pretty harsh that you can be kicked out by having a tough group and a bad matchup or bad Luck on your opponent, and then be stuck in Code B... but on the other hand that guarantees more player rotation (i hope)
On October 28 2011 03:39 dAPhREAk wrote: am i reading this correctly?
for foreigners qualifying through MLG, etc., they are no longer offered a spot in the tournament, but rather have to qualify through the up and down matches? so, if you get a spot through MLG, go to Korea and lose in the up and downs, you never even get the opportunity to play in the real tournament? is that correct?
thats pretty jacked up in my opinion. korean invites auto get put in group stages for MLG, but foreigners only get the opportunity to qualify for GSL. seems to me that there will be even less incentive for foreigners going to korea.
also, how long between up and down matches and the next code s? if foreigner wins the up and down, does he then have to stay X weeks before he gets to play in the next tournament?
seems like koreans are getting the better bargain on the MLG-GSL exchange.
No. If you lose in the Up & Downs you go down to Code A.
The only thing that's changed is that instead of automatically playing in Code A, you play a few matches to determine whether you get to play in Code S or Code A.
No if you loose the Up& Downs, you go down to code B.
There are seeds for code A (probably MLG) and seed for Up & Downs.
On October 28 2011 03:39 dAPhREAk wrote: am i reading this correctly?
for foreigners qualifying through MLG, etc., they are no longer offered a spot in the tournament, but rather have to qualify through the up and down matches? so, if you get a spot through MLG, go to Korea and lose in the up and downs, you never even get the opportunity to play in the real tournament? is that correct?
thats pretty jacked up in my opinion. korean invites auto get put in group stages for MLG, but foreigners only get the opportunity to qualify for GSL. seems to me that there will be even less incentive for foreigners going to korea.
also, how long between up and down matches and the next code s? if foreigner wins the up and down, does he then have to stay X weeks before he gets to play in the next tournament?
seems like koreans are getting the better bargain on the MLG-GSL exchange.
No. If you lose in the Up & Downs you go down to Code A.
The only thing that's changed is that instead of automatically playing in Code A, you play a few matches to determine whether you get to play in Code S or Code A.
awww, ic. that makes sense.
one concern i have still is that they are essentially qualifying for the next season of code s or a. so, how long do they have to stay in the country before they get the opportunity to make some real money?
tbh no foreigner has made any real money off GSL. they're in korea for korea, GSL is just a bonus.
apart from the chin right? he made a good amount of money (more than alot of the current Code S)
On October 28 2011 03:39 dAPhREAk wrote: am i reading this correctly?
for foreigners qualifying through MLG, etc., they are no longer offered a spot in the tournament, but rather have to qualify through the up and down matches? so, if you get a spot through MLG, go to Korea and lose in the up and downs, you never even get the opportunity to play in the real tournament? is that correct?
thats pretty jacked up in my opinion. korean invites auto get put in group stages for MLG, but foreigners only get the opportunity to qualify for GSL. seems to me that there will be even less incentive for foreigners going to korea.
also, how long between up and down matches and the next code s? if foreigner wins the up and down, does he then have to stay X weeks before he gets to play in the next tournament?
seems like koreans are getting the better bargain on the MLG-GSL exchange.
No. If you lose in the Up & Downs you go down to Code A.
The only thing that's changed is that instead of automatically playing in Code A, you play a few matches to determine whether you get to play in Code S or Code A.
No if you loose the Up& Downs, you go down to code B.
There are seeds for code A (probably MLG) and seed for Up & Downs.
Here, let me post an image so you can understand it properly.
If you lose in the Up & Downs you're in Code A next season.
On October 28 2011 03:39 dAPhREAk wrote: am i reading this correctly?
for foreigners qualifying through MLG, etc., they are no longer offered a spot in the tournament, but rather have to qualify through the up and down matches? so, if you get a spot through MLG, go to Korea and lose in the up and downs, you never even get the opportunity to play in the real tournament? is that correct?
thats pretty jacked up in my opinion. korean invites auto get put in group stages for MLG, but foreigners only get the opportunity to qualify for GSL. seems to me that there will be even less incentive for foreigners going to korea.
also, how long between up and down matches and the next code s? if foreigner wins the up and down, does he then have to stay X weeks before he gets to play in the next tournament?
seems like koreans are getting the better bargain on the MLG-GSL exchange.
No. If you lose in the Up & Downs you go down to Code A.
The only thing that's changed is that instead of automatically playing in Code A, you play a few matches to determine whether you get to play in Code S or Code A.
No if you loose the Up& Downs, you go down to code B.
There are seeds for code A (probably MLG) and seed for Up & Downs.
Up&Downs have always been to decide between Code S and Code A. If you lose in the U&Ds, you drop down to Code A, if you win, you're in Code S.
On October 28 2011 03:39 dAPhREAk wrote: am i reading this correctly?
for foreigners qualifying through MLG, etc., they are no longer offered a spot in the tournament, but rather have to qualify through the up and down matches? so, if you get a spot through MLG, go to Korea and lose in the up and downs, you never even get the opportunity to play in the real tournament? is that correct?
thats pretty jacked up in my opinion. korean invites auto get put in group stages for MLG, but foreigners only get the opportunity to qualify for GSL. seems to me that there will be even less incentive for foreigners going to korea.
also, how long between up and down matches and the next code s? if foreigner wins the up and down, does he then have to stay X weeks before he gets to play in the next tournament?
seems like koreans are getting the better bargain on the MLG-GSL exchange.
No. If you lose in the Up & Downs you go down to Code A.
The only thing that's changed is that instead of automatically playing in Code A, you play a few matches to determine whether you get to play in Code S or Code A.
No if you loose the Up& Downs, you go down to code B.
There are seeds for code A (probably MLG) and seed for Up & Downs.
No you don't. Only people who lose in the ro48 go down to code b.
This is a much better system I think. Gives the possibility for way more player turnover in Code S which is something that GSL has really needed for a while. Gonna make Code A even more exciting too, and put a ton more pressure on Code S players to really be the best of the best, which will hopefully result in even better games.
I really like the fact that people can't just stay in Code S...
But I can't get behind the lack of Code A. I really liked Code A, and the top 8 was always a really great group of players that maybe aren't NesTea, or Terran for that matter (lulz). I don't know... I'm just gonna miss Code A.
Very happy with these changes, even though it's all a little abstract at the moment. I like that it seems like the tournament is more "open," which accommodates the growing talent pool. Should also make for a lot of dramatic games, given the possibility of elimination for code S players now.
Also, that Choboo diagram just killed me LOL. He's probably not that far off either >.>
Hopefully this will solve the issue that is GomTvT, and let other races in. With how the Code A qualifiers are going, we might actually get to see each race play every day instead of having some days of pure TvT.
Gomtv has outdone themselves. The new format should make it a lot less volatile. Less chances for someone to make one silly mistake and get kicked. I like it. ^^
Seems a pretty good change overall, The only thing I dislike is that there is no longer a Code A champion and Code A is just sort of a qualification for the next Code S.
On October 28 2011 04:48 A x i o M wrote: Gomtv has outdone themselves. The new format should make it a lot less volatile. Less chances for someone to make one silly mistake and get kicked. I like it. ^^
I actually think there is more of a chance of this happening, alot more Bo1 and small mistakes can add up.
Definitely enjoy the high turn over though, more chances for unknowns and up and comers to prove themselves. Will miss the old format but, change is nice
I like that code s is harder to retain but I don't like that in the course of one tournament you can go from code s to code b. I like the idea to get new blood into code s without up and down matches but getting fourth in your code s group and losing one best of three and you're suddenly in code b seems harsh.
Hmm it's kind of like MLG. The better you do in Codes S. before you lose determines how far in the bracket you are for Code A. Then the better you do in code A the higher your chances are to make it into code S though up/down or just straight advancing. Code A is like the loser bracket of the championship bracket.
hehe i loved the first time just looking at that chart thinking wtf but just a bit more of a glare and it all made sense hehe :-), the format seems pretty good imo.
and lol @the "simple" explanation that really made my day
Uhh, wow. Really complex, but I think I like it from what I can understand. It sounds like the code s players will be rotating more and it will be easier to get new rising talent into Code S, so thats good.
On October 28 2011 03:10 roymarthyup wrote: i made a thread a while ago almost outlining how a new system such as this would be great for the GSL, however one problem
in my thread i said that it would make it way more exciting if the top2 code a players, after advancing far enough, could somehow get placed into the code S ro2 with the top4 code S players. then you play a new ro4 with 2 Code S players and 2 Code A players and have a nice fun underdog/favorite matchup and then you might get the possibility of some Code A player running through everything and winning the tournament
that would be a exciting possibility but this format doesnt allow this sadly
Thats stupid. People would intentionally drop to Code A to play the easier tourney and it invalidates the 3rd/4th placing Code S players.
Interesting staying in Code A is much easier... all you need to do is win 1 BO3 and you are freerolling to Code S for that season. If compared previous seasons you have two chance to get to Code S (three if you get MLG spot)
International players can win a few Bo3's and qualify for Code S in the very next season? Awesome :D I feel like a Code A tournament past the Ro24 could still be held for seeding purposes, though. 4 groups of 3, top 2 players advance to Ro8, and boom, you get a Code A tournament. I still like the new format, though.
Hm, I'm not sure about this. I definitely think change was needed, but I think it's a bit too volatile until next year when they can get rid of best of ones. Best of ones makes everything way too volatile and need to go. I'm happy they're looking at it for next year as I can understand it would be difficult to change right away.
However, even if with a best 3's, I still think their ought to be a little more protection for the previous GSL winner, runner up and possibly semi-finalists (later seed or something.) But if they do go best of 3 for the group stages, then I think I could get behind this.
I'm surprised so many people are in love with the idea of people being completely washed out of televised GSL matches, even when starting from Code A, and yet they still maintain the bo1 format in early stages of Code S. If there are some wonky matchups, there is no doubt that some fantastic players will get wiped out quite quickly. Players like Nestea and MVP have lost in the group stages before.
So the twitter post says "code s group matches Bo1". That includes the second stage of group matches as well, the Ro16? With only 4 groups instead of 8 I hope they do Bo3 at that point.
On October 28 2011 01:59 Infenwe wrote: My problem with the GSL format has always been that someone who gets knocked out of Code A is with overwhelming probability never heard from again because qualifying is (a) hard as nails and (b) subject to huge amounts of variance.
The same people go far in the code B qualifiers over and over again. JookTo is an example of how your claim is wrong; he's in code A now. A while ago, he was the lowest code S seed coming out of the 2010 opens and subsequently embarrassed out of the GSL. So it's possible to come back.
On October 28 2011 01:59 Infenwe wrote: My problem with the GSL format has always been that someone who gets knocked out of Code A is with overwhelming probability never heard from again because qualifying is (a) hard as nails and (b) subject to huge amounts of variance.
The same people go far in the code B qualifiers over and over again. JookTo is an example of how your claim is wrong; he's in code A now. A while ago, he was the lowest code S seed coming out of the 2010 opens and subsequently embarrassed out of the GSL. So it's possible to come back.
MC coming back straight into code S? Boxer coming back as well? Yeah it's hard, but so was passing a courage tournament and getting into BW. Nobody ever said it should be easy to be a progamer and variance is a good thing so we don't have the race spread like we do.
On October 28 2011 01:59 Infenwe wrote: My problem with the GSL format has always been that someone who gets knocked out of Code A is with overwhelming probability never heard from again because qualifying is (a) hard as nails and (b) subject to huge amounts of variance.
The same people go far in the code B qualifiers over and over again. JookTo is an example of how your claim is wrong; he's in code A now. A while ago, he was the lowest code S seed coming out of the 2010 opens and subsequently embarrassed out of the GSL. So it's possible to come back.
MC coming back straight into code S? Boxer coming back as well? Yeah it's hard, but so was passing a courage tournament and getting into BW. Nobody ever said it should be easy to be a progamer and variance is a good thing so we don't have the race spread like we do.
MC coming back had nothing to do with qualifiers. He won (came in 2nd) the code S seed at MLG and took it.
On October 28 2011 01:59 Infenwe wrote: My problem with the GSL format has always been that someone who gets knocked out of Code A is with overwhelming probability never heard from again because qualifying is (a) hard as nails and (b) subject to huge amounts of variance.
The same people go far in the code B qualifiers over and over again. JookTo is an example of how your claim is wrong; he's in code A now. A while ago, he was the lowest code S seed coming out of the 2010 opens and subsequently embarrassed out of the GSL. So it's possible to come back.
MC coming back straight into code S? Boxer coming back as well? Yeah it's hard, but so was passing a courage tournament and getting into BW. Nobody ever said it should be easy to be a progamer and variance is a good thing so we don't have the race spread like we do.
MC coming back had nothing to do with qualifiers. He won (came in 2nd) the code S seed at MLG and took it.
Having multiple ways to come back into Code S/A is exactly my point. Yes the qualifiers are hard. But there are other ways (That are equally hard imo) that people can go do, e.g. the ESV korean weeklies and MLG.
On October 28 2011 06:45 Lunares wrote: So the twitter post says "code s group matches Bo1". That includes the second stage of group matches as well, the Ro16? With only 4 groups instead of 8 I hope they do Bo3 at that point.
When you really think about it, the group stages ARE Bo3, just with different players and less preparation. 2 wins before 2 losses advances a player, just like a regular Bo3.
I like some aspects of it, like how the seeding into code a works, but I still don't think it addresses the fundamental flaws in the code a/code a qualification process.
Finally, GSL's format is getting sufficiently confusing for it to deserve the title of the premier tournament for it's game. Now it truly can stand on par with the 2007-2008 OSL system w/OSC, ODT, and OSL.
And as in the old days, like 10 of us will actually understand it.
On October 28 2011 06:37 Corrupted wrote: I'm surprised so many people are in love with the idea of people being completely washed out of televised GSL matches, even when starting from Code A, and yet they still maintain the bo1 format in early stages of Code S. If there are some wonky matchups, there is no doubt that some fantastic players will get wiped out quite quickly. Players like Nestea and MVP have lost in the group stages before.
I'm mixed on the new format; I like it in principle, but this is a big sticking point for me as well.
Pros Code S dregs get filtered out even faster Code A players have more ways into Code S In turn this means unlucky Code S players have an easier chance getting back in (unlike Leenock) Code A expanded, which means Code B is less brutal
Cons Code A isn't a real tournament anymore... Code A bracket draws are even more variable with a small percentage of Code S players being thrown in the first 2 rounds Code S group stages are still a Bo1 (or homeless man's Bo3 if you prefer)
I really don't now what I think yet, will have to wait until GSL November is over to decide.
How is the money going to be distributed? Now instead of paying 32 to finals of code s and code a it's 3 rounds of code a and Ro8 and on in code s. Any word on this?
I really like the code S play before code A I think this ads a lot of diversity and as stated previously it helps cycle players for I feel so players whom are not preforming will be take out rather then taking a long time.
I can't really say I like the change since I feel it is too easy to drop out of code-S now, and code-A isn't really a separate tournament to be won anymore. However, my mind can still be changed depending on how the next GSL works out, and I know I'm in the minority~ I know most people want this, so I guess I'm happy they gave people what they wanted. GomTV has been awesome like that, kudos to them!
Code S/Code A is going to become a lot more turbulent now. I like it =)
At the same time though, I really hope MBC Game or other stations will get involved & create more major tournies for SC2. (like how they had MSL, OSL, etc for BW)
That'll create more opportunities for more players to show off what they have, w/o getting stuck in that advancement stuff.
On October 28 2011 07:47 LuciferSC wrote: Code S/Code A is going to become a lot more turbulent now. I like it =)
At the same time though, I really hope MBC Game or other stations will get involved & create more major tournies for SC2. (like how they had MSL, OSL, etc for BW)
That'll create more opportunities for more players to show off what they have, w/o getting stuck in that advancement stuff.
now I wonder GOM will handle the MLG slots... as far as I can see, they've said nothing about them regarding this change in format. That code A slot will be nearly worthless now if they are only seeded into the new up/down matches (not that they were worth that much to begin with, since Code A is hella tough and will be more so after this)
Overall, I applaud this attempt by GOM to try to shake up the sclerotic nature of Code S where going 1-2 could keep you in code S forever (looking at you ensnare...). This will give up and comers a shot at coming up further up the ranks. Only thing I hate is that they refuse to include bo3 in Code S. I know they have included it for Code A but would much rather see it in code S to be honest. I like the possibility of turnover but at least it shouldn't be dependent on fewer games.
This is amazing! What a great way to shake things up! The only thing I would change is to get rid of the second code S group stage and keep it as a 1v1 BO3. There is no need to make it a group, since the 3rd and 4th place players end up in the same place. Why not just do BO3s and losers go down?
At first looked terrible, but now I start to like it a lot. If indeed code S ro32 (and ro16?) are bo3s, this should be awesome. I wonder where the time comes from, doesn't this make tons more games? Is season going to last longer, or more casting days or what?
Wow, it seems like they thought really hard on how to produce a fast turnover rate system that rewards the higher skilled player. Complicated enough to rival MLG.
Overall I like it, but the one main aspect I don't like is the second tier group stage of Code S. Group stages are nice in the beginning but I don't want to see those who come out of groups to be thrown into another group. I like to see brackets matched up instantly when they come out of a bracket. Remember the BEST GSL DAY that occurred in this last GSL in the first part of the Ro16? Bo3 between Code S players are more fun to watch than another group stage.
I think I understand why perhaps. It's not cause to save time as both Ro16 group or Bo3 takes the same amount of time but it does avoid a player getting eliminated in Ro16 by meeting their bad matchup or nemesis. e.g. Polt>MMA
Another aspect I don't like is opening another seed for international players. Sorry, I didn't like the single seed from previous seasons. It feels too much like a shortcut. I don't think foreigners deserve being seeded into Code S no matter what tournament they win and I feel it's almost cheating for a Korean to bypass the hells of up and down into Code S.
On October 28 2011 08:36 Ouga wrote: At first looked terrible, but now I start to like it a lot. If indeed code S ro32 (and ro16?) are bo3s, this should be awesome. I wonder where the time comes from, doesn't this make tons more games? Is season going to last longer, or more casting days or what?
mr chae has already said in twitter code S will remain best of 1.
now even ro16 is bo1, that is just stupid imo. I was getting bored of the TvT finals so i had already decided not to get a code s pass this season even though I have gotten a pass for everything gom had to offer until now, and this change just reinforces my previous decision of taking a break from gom until HOTS.
I feel like this will defiantly not courage foreigners trying to get into Code S. Seriously having to go through 2 group stages against the best players just to secure a spot for Code S? that will be impossible for a new player that just arrived to korea cos think about how many different players he will face(at least 5 players) at this group stages thats insane. Add to that to the thing that I don't see anyway Gomtv handing out prize money for 8 players that what only they have done is to manage to get to Code S from Code A. So the prize money is almost for certain out of reach. PLUS the 2 months long tournament. It seems like only 8 players staying in Code S is way too harsh and it's sooooo easy to place 3rd or 2nd at the first group stages specially with the current format of the BO1 shit thing, I mean it's kind of a 70% luck based with the selections and match ups at a players group. I DON'T KNOW I know something must have been done about the Terran dominance in the GSL but it seems too radical of a change just to get a balance between races(which I don't see this format managing to accomplish and I pretty sure that it's will stay the same cos korean terran players are better imo). I don't see how they will manage to go back into an older format if this one won't work.
And last but not least, keeping a tournament running for another almost a month after the grand finals sounds ify, I personally think I'll stop watching the rest of the season or maybe just watch my favored players matches only. I DON'T KNOW. well, time will tell
On October 28 2011 09:52 adiga wrote: I feel like this will defiantly not courage foreigners trying to get into Code S. Seriously having to go through 2 group stages against the best players just to secure a spot for Code S? that will be impossible for a new player that just arrived to korea cos think about how many different players he will face(at least 5 players) at this group stages thats insane. Add to that to the thing that I don't see anyway Gomtv handing out prize money for 8 players that what only they have done is to manage to get to Code S from Code A. So the prize money is almost for certain out of reach. PLUS the 2 months long tournament. It seems like only 8 players staying in Code S is way too harsh and it's sooooo easy to place 3rd or 2nd at the first group stages specially with the current format of the BO1 shit thing, I mean it's kind of a 70% luck based with the selections and match ups at a players group. I DON'T KNOW I know something must have been done about the Terran dominance in the GSL but it seems too radical of a change just to get a balance between races(which I don't see this format managing to accomplish and I pretty sure that it's will stay the same cos korean terran players are better imo). I don't see how they will manage to go back into an older format if this one won't work.
And last but not least, keeping a tournament running for another almost a month after the grand finals sounds ify, I personally think I'll stop watching the rest of the season or maybe just watch my favored players matches only. I DON'T KNOW. well, time will tell
The group stages are in Code S, that means a foreigner first has to GET IN Code S. Besides Huk has been able to travel and play in Code S. It is NOT a fulltime 2month commitment in any way, look at the this schedule again: http://i.imgur.com/r34fu.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/akpeH.png A code S champion will play 4 times a season, A fresh code A player will play 3 or 4 times a season to get into Code S, if you fall in code A ro32 there's TWO WEEKS until up and down matches, and 1 week if you lose in ro24. Coupled with the fact that if you play late in the code S ro32 or code A ro48 there's lots of time to go play in other tournaments. Additonally keeping the season going after the finals is fine, since Code A is now a pure qualifier you can look at it as such
The one aspect of the previous format that I really, really disliked was the pool play in the ro32. It was too quick, BO1 are too prone to luck, and the randomness of the draw affects the results almost as much as the players do.
And now it looks like we have another round with that?? lamesauce.
The rest of the changes I am open to, and will have to see it in action before passing judgement. It is convoluted, so hopefully its not too confusing for any new fans.
On October 28 2011 09:52 adiga wrote: I feel like this will defiantly not courage foreigners trying to get into Code S. Seriously having to go through 2 group stages against the best players just to secure a spot for Code S? that will be impossible for a new player that just arrived to korea cos think about how many different players he will face(at least 5 players) at this group stages thats insane. Add to that to the thing that I don't see anyway Gomtv handing out prize money for 8 players that what only they have done is to manage to get to Code S from Code A. So the prize money is almost for certain out of reach. PLUS the 2 months long tournament. It seems like only 8 players staying in Code S is way too harsh and it's sooooo easy to place 3rd or 2nd at the first group stages specially with the current format of the BO1 shit thing, I mean it's kind of a 70% luck based with the selections and match ups at a players group. I DON'T KNOW I know something must have been done about the Terran dominance in the GSL but it seems too radical of a change just to get a balance between races(which I don't see this format managing to accomplish and I pretty sure that it's will stay the same cos korean terran players are better imo). I don't see how they will manage to go back into an older format if this one won't work.
And last but not least, keeping a tournament running for another almost a month after the grand finals sounds ify, I personally think I'll stop watching the rest of the season or maybe just watch my favored players matches only. I DON'T KNOW. well, time will tell
Since you decided to post your thoughts in two threads, I'll post my response to you in both of them too.
Foreigners aren't all that matters to GOM. They want the best of the best playing in their Code S tournament. And if players are only hanging on to their Code S medallions from sheer luck in their Bo1's then this format will punish them, and create new openings for more skilled players to poke their heads into Code S. The direct seeding into the up/downs gives foreigners a chance to make it into Code S directly, or just into Code A. So I think it encourages Foreigners a lot more then just getting seeded into Code A. Also a lot of foreigners aren't discouraged to join the GSL because of the format, their discouraged because they aren't like Koreans; They haven't tried practice a million hours a day, 5-7 days a week, and it's in a different country with a different language, so home sickness and the language barrier deters them away from living the Korean pro-gaming style. Only the people who are truly dedicated to performing well do this. That is why I, specifically, want to see Incontrol over in Korea to learn how to get better. Also nothing is impossible, you say a new player in Korea has to go through 5 players just to maintain code S level.. I don't know what you're saying.. You can only get Code S from making your way through Code A or the Up/Downs, and if you do make it there then why should Code S be easy to get into and maintain? Isn't it the most prestigious tournament rank in SC2 at this moment? Why should you be easily able to get in, and stay in? Also GomTV paid everyone in Code S over this last year. The further they make it the more they got. They paid people in Code A too, but not nearly as much as Code S. So EVERYONE used to get prize money, I'm not sure now. Any source on only the top 8 get money? I would of thought that it would of remained the same, maybe they would of taken out paying the Code A guys since there is so many of them. Also 12 players from Code A get into Code S automatically from the Ro.24 and the losers go into the Up/Down's, 12 players come out of the Up/Down's and 8 players remain in Code S after making it out of the group stages.
Add to that to the thing that I don't see anyway Gomtv handing out prize money for 8 players that what only they have done is to manage to get to Code S from Code A. So the prize money is almost for certain out of reach.
What are you trying to say here? I can't quite understand. 12 players make it out of Code A directly into Code S.
I love watching pro-gamers push themselves, and strive, to be the best player in the world. Not just the foreign scene. The prize money should be the least of their concerns when they're playing. Money matters to most people, but money doesn't really matter to the players who want to do well. 2 months in Korea, in the most prestigious tournament in SC2 should be motivation to do well. It just shows that foreigners who participate in this are pretty dedicated, this is entirely opinion based.
Also before you start sprouting a post about the new format get some of your facts straight. It's Bo3's, as John said on the stream. So it's not 70% based on luck, it's based on skill. And can you link a source as to anyone of note-worthy saying that this new format is meant to balance the races? To me it's to weed out the inferior players in Code S that are hanging on because they win 2 bo1's to stay in Code S.
I personally don't mind how long the tournament is. It just gives players enough time to rest, prepare for their opponent(s). This to me, allows us to see high level play from them since they should be at their peaks. Obviously the will give this format a few chances to prove it's worth. It's going to take some getting used to from a spectators perspective but I think overall it's a great way to weed out the weaker Code S players and replace them with the stronger Code A players.
It's all to have a tournament where you have to always play your best otherwise you're out of GSL all together. You NEED to perform well or you're out.
It also gives a lot of other low profile players that struggle in qualifiers to show their play on TV and earn them some fans since there's 20 players coming out of the offline qualifiers. I just don't see how this format can do bad.
Also.. Articulate your response with correct facts next time if you want to come off as intellectual. Bo1's aren't in GSL any more as far as anyone knows since John said group stages are Bo3's. Up/Down's might be bo1's but I'm sure they will be Bo3's too since Group stages are. Also 3rd & 4th go to Code A not 2nd & 3rd. Also try not to say you don't know something when trying to state your opinion, it just makes you look uninformed.
Edit: Ohh wow. Mr Chae said Code S remains Bo1? Why did John say Code S group plays is Bo3? I'm now utterly confused. I guess I have to get my own correct facts ;_;
This could easily be simplified if they just wanted to freshen up the murkey waters of Code S (yaaay no more people like FD/Tester/HongUn clinging to their spots FOREVER).
8.5 out of 10. I would still prefer a system where you could go from the offline preliminaries all the way to winning the whole GSL in 1 season rather than having to wait until the next season. Overall the new bracket seems really complicated but hey variety is always nice. There's no need for every tournament to be single or double elimination brackets. Like many others I would have preferred Bo3 group stages or at least a true round robin. SC2 is still too luck-ish and all-in-y to properly guage skill with just Bo1.
The most important thing though, is that it's easier to fall out of code S now. Time to weed out the undeserving 3rd rate terrans. Nonetheless there are safeguards for players who get unlucky or cheesed out because they can still requalify for code S next season as long as they prove themselves in code A or the up and down matches.
I love this!!!! makes comebacks a lot more possible compared to the old unforgiving system. Imagine if a group like MKP, Nestea, MVP, MMA was made in the old system...... 2 insanely good players would immediately become code A.... looking forward to more entertaining games and combacks now.
On October 28 2011 11:40 DTK920 wrote: I love this!!!! makes comebacks a lot more possible compared to the old unforgiving system. Imagine if a group like MKP, Nestea, MVP, MMA was made in the old system...... 2 insanely good players would immediately become code A.... looking forward to more entertaining games and combacks now.
I don't think you understood how the old system worked... 1 player used to drop to up and down where they could win and end up in Code S again next season and the person in 3rd stayed in Code S.
Don't know if this had been mentioned but there will be 272-335 maps played in code S, code A, and up and down combined. (assuming Code S ro8 is Bo3, ro4 is Bo5 and Final is Bo7)
After considering this new format, I've realized that if they keep Code A casters doing the Up & Down matches, the Code A casters will be casting approximately 3x the amount of games as Tastosis. To me, this is a bit ridiculous. The Code A casters were hired to give Tastosis a rest back when they had to do 8-hour days, 5 days a week. I feel that the Code S schedule is much more lax now, and GOM should stop relying on their backup casters for everything.
So please, GOM, please at least allow Tastosis to cast the Up & Down Matches (which will still give them less airtime than the Code A casters in the current format), if not also the Code A Ro24. Tastosis should be casting around 66% of the games in GSL, not 25% as they are set up to do currently.
On October 28 2011 13:18 Cel.erity wrote: After considering this new format, I've realized that if they keep Code A casters doing the Up & Down matches, the Code A casters will be casting approximately 3x the amount of games as Tastosis. To me, this is a bit ridiculous. The Code A casters were hired to give Tastosis a rest back when they had to do 8-hour days, 5 days a week. I feel that the Code S schedule is much more lax now, and GOM should stop relying on their backup casters for everything.
So please, GOM, please at least allow Tastosis to cast the Up & Down Matches (which will still give them less airtime than the Code A casters in the current format), if not also the Code A Ro24. Tastosis should be casting around 66% of the games in GSL, not 25% as they are set up to do currently.
are you sure it was 8 hours? they would only have a few matches a day, unless if it takes a lot of time to prepare/set-up before and after the game
Also perhaps this is another reason why Khaldor is here. Now it's doa moletrap wolf and khaldor, and also tastosis.
Code S group play remaining Bo1 just made this new system from "freaking awesome" to "this makes no sense"
This new system is ALOT more punishing for Code S players, so risk is higher for losing in the group play. But now there are TWO group stages back to back, makes this even more worst.
honestly i feel GSL should have just took a step further and made it so RO4 code A fights RO4 code S to form a new ro8 and this would give code A players the opportunity to win code S finals if they play super good that season
GSL is going in the right direction, but basically code A is now just the losers bracket of code S (without its own final) and code A players still cannot win code S during the tournament and will have to stop playing even if they win all their games
i made a thread a while ago asking gomTV to move into this direction, and im happy, but my thread said it would be alot more exciting if code a players could go on and win code S that season if he keeps winning. and i still think that such a thing would be more exciting and a good idea
Great changes ;D , but I'll be sad that there won't be any Code A champs. I really hope GomTV do something like split the 12 new Code S players up to two groups, top 4 get to duke it out for Code A champ bragging rights (and $$$)
the only thing i don't like is that certain code a qualifiers will be paired against ridic opponents in Ro48. While its 24v24, 8 of those will be S class players, so its 16 code A vs 16 code A plus 8 code A vs 8 code S. Just tough luck for those who will be paired with a 4th in group S player
I wonder if people will still like this format if some of the big stars get eliminated. If a code s player loses 4 maps in a row he is out of the GSL. It's exciting and brutal at the same time.
I don`t understand why people complain about the bo1 group stages. This isn`t like an MLG or IPL or any other foreign tournament where only selected games are shown. The GSL aims to show EVERY match so a best of 3 format would take WAY too long for groups. For me, I`d rather see every match casted.
Anyway I like this format better as it improved the quality of code S. Going 1-2 every season like Ensnare shouldn`t keep you in code S. I am sure they will make further improvements to the format if something isn`t right down the line.
On October 28 2011 14:00 mango_destroyer wrote: I don`t understand why people complain about the bo1 group stages. This isn`t like an MLG or IPL or any other foreign tournament where only selected games are shown. The GSL aims to show EVERY match so a best of 3 format would take WAY too long for groups. For me, I`d rather see every match casted.
Anyway I like this format better as it improved the quality of code S. Going 1-2 every season like Ensnare shouldn`t keep you in code S. I am sure they will make further improvements to the format if something isn`t right down the line.
Lack of time to do Bo3 in group stage may be a valid reason, but that doesn't change the fact that Bo1 is still terrible for the volatility of the game. By your logic, if they are short on time, it is okay to make the finals Bo1?
I don't know why they just don't do a group a day with the Code S groups all being Bo3. Without GSTL, they have two free days open. You could do Code A on Monday and Code S the rest of the week. They would still have the two days off and give the Code S players a better chance. It's quite harsh you can get placed in a tough group, lose twice and then be one step away from out of the GSL. sC, who got picked by Nestea, might lose to him, and then have to face asd/Losira, lose there and then have to fight for his life. At least with group Bo3, you can't go 0-4 and go from S to B in a blink of the eye.
i still don't understand the up and downs at all. if 30 players end up in up and down, and 30 players end up seeded back into the tournament, how the fuck is anyone supposed to ever fall out? and how can you actually reason that someone who lost code A should be able to go into code S from the up and downs? what the fuck?! something must be mistyped or i must be missing something critical.
also, WTF no code A finals? i loved code A, i don't want this loser bracket of code S shit. sadface
On October 28 2011 14:00 mango_destroyer wrote: I don`t understand why people complain about the bo1 group stages. This isn`t like an MLG or IPL or any other foreign tournament where only selected games are shown. The GSL aims to show EVERY match so a best of 3 format would take WAY too long for groups. For me, I`d rather see every match casted.
Anyway I like this format better as it improved the quality of code S. Going 1-2 every season like Ensnare shouldn`t keep you in code S. I am sure they will make further improvements to the format if something isn`t right down the line.
Lack of time to do Bo3 in group stage may be a valid reason, but that doesn't change the fact that Bo1 is still terrible for the volatility of the game. By your logic, if they are short on time, it is okay to make the finals Bo1?
What sort of logic is that? Try putting things in context please. Obviously the finals will never be a best of 1 as there is only one series to play.
While I agree its not great the volatility of the game, you can`t ignore that their plan is to broadcast every match. Not everyone wants to see the GSL turn into MLG and have them select only some matches to show.
On October 28 2011 13:18 Cel.erity wrote: After considering this new format, I've realized that if they keep Code A casters doing the Up & Down matches, the Code A casters will be casting approximately 3x the amount of games as Tastosis. To me, this is a bit ridiculous. The Code A casters were hired to give Tastosis a rest back when they had to do 8-hour days, 5 days a week. I feel that the Code S schedule is much more lax now, and GOM should stop relying on their backup casters for everything.
So please, GOM, please at least allow Tastosis to cast the Up & Down Matches (which will still give them less airtime than the Code A casters in the current format), if not also the Code A Ro24. Tastosis should be casting around 66% of the games in GSL, not 25% as they are set up to do currently.
are you sure it was 8 hours? they would only have a few matches a day, unless if it takes a lot of time to prepare/set-up before and after the game
Also perhaps this is another reason why Khaldor is here. Now it's doa moletrap wolf and khaldor, and also tastosis.
So hurray enough casting for everyone? xD
It was a lot of hours, the first 3 seasons were RO64 and they were doing all of the casting. It was the equivalent of doing code A and code S after all
On October 28 2011 13:18 Cel.erity wrote: After considering this new format, I've realized that if they keep Code A casters doing the Up & Down matches, the Code A casters will be casting approximately 3x the amount of games as Tastosis. To me, this is a bit ridiculous. The Code A casters were hired to give Tastosis a rest back when they had to do 8-hour days, 5 days a week. I feel that the Code S schedule is much more lax now, and GOM should stop relying on their backup casters for everything.
So please, GOM, please at least allow Tastosis to cast the Up & Down Matches (which will still give them less airtime than the Code A casters in the current format), if not also the Code A Ro24. Tastosis should be casting around 66% of the games in GSL, not 25% as they are set up to do currently.
Heh, to be honest that's not any different then how it is now really. Look how much code a/gstl wolf, doa and moletrap casted compared to how much tastosis casted. Right now tastosis have plush jobs cause of their status and don't really cast much these days compared to the code a casters. I bet wolf and co casted at least 70% of games last 2 seasons.
There is a 8 Man single elimination tournament. Then there is a qualifier for this 8 Man tournament (called code S) Then there is a qualifier for this code S (called code A) Then there is a second chance qualifier for this code S (called U&D matches) Then there is a qualifier for the code A (called Code B)
What the difference between this GSL and anoother tournament around like Dreamhack or . Just a more complicated qualifying system. This format lost the feel of a league GSL had and the difference was the stability it gave to players when they had to fight their way up step by step and if they failed they had to take a step back.
I would prefer much more if they had enforced this league aspect of a split Code S, A and B. Maybe doing an offline Code B league instead of a 2 day qualifier. it would give a much better player base for the league overall in my opinion
Honestly, to me, this means that the changes between different codes will happen much quicker, and slower players that don't truly belong in Code S will be dropped to Code A, or even B.
Which, is great for StarCraft in general, because hopefully we'll see stronger and stronger games between the best of the best on the best maps in the SC2 world, leading to a BW-level game. :D
On October 28 2011 14:00 mango_destroyer wrote: I don`t understand why people complain about the bo1 group stages. This isn`t like an MLG or IPL or any other foreign tournament where only selected games are shown. The GSL aims to show EVERY match so a best of 3 format would take WAY too long for groups. For me, I`d rather see every match casted.
Anyway I like this format better as it improved the quality of code S. Going 1-2 every season like Ensnare shouldn`t keep you in code S. I am sure they will make further improvements to the format if something isn`t right down the line.
Lack of time to do Bo3 in group stage may be a valid reason, but that doesn't change the fact that Bo1 is still terrible for the volatility of the game. By your logic, if they are short on time, it is okay to make the finals Bo1?
What sort of logic is that? Try putting things in context please. Obviously the finals will never be a best of 1 as there is only one series to play.
While I agree its not great the volatility of the game, you can`t ignore that their plan is to broadcast every match. Not everyone wants to see the GSL turn into MLG and have them select only some matches to show.
It's called exaggeration to show a flaw in the logic.
Your comparison with MLG is really flawed too; MLG is a 2-3 day event while GSL is a 1.5 month event, I don't understand how you are comparing their way of scheduling here.
On October 28 2011 14:08 Fionn wrote: I don't know why they just don't do a group a day with the Code S groups all being Bo3. Without GSTL, they have two free days open. You could do Code A on Monday and Code S the rest of the week. They would still have the two days off and give the Code S players a better chance. It's quite harsh you can get placed in a tough group, lose twice and then be one step away from out of the GSL. sC, who got picked by Nestea, might lose to him, and then have to face asd/Losira, lose there and then have to fight for his life. At least with group Bo3, you can't go 0-4 and go from S to B in a blink of the eye.
Yeah seriously, I'm not sure what schedule Mr Chae is looking at.
On October 28 2011 14:08 Fionn wrote: I don't know why they just don't do a group a day with the Code S groups all being Bo3. Without GSTL, they have two free days open. You could do Code A on Monday and Code S the rest of the week. They would still have the two days off and give the Code S players a better chance. It's quite harsh you can get placed in a tough group, lose twice and then be one step away from out of the GSL. sC, who got picked by Nestea, might lose to him, and then have to face asd/Losira, lose there and then have to fight for his life. At least with group Bo3, you can't go 0-4 and go from S to B in a blink of the eye.
Yeah seriously, I'm not sure what schedule Mr Chae is looking at.
While I'm sure that's all it takes, you've got to put into perspective studio costs & staff costs for those extra 2 days a week, and from what I understand from the Korean SC2 scene, it's not exactly bustling like it should be.
On October 28 2011 13:18 Cel.erity wrote: So please, GOM, please at least allow Tastosis to cast the Up & Down Matches (which will still give them less airtime than the Code A casters in the current format), if not also the Code A Ro24. Tastosis should be casting around 66% of the games in GSL, not 25% as they are set up to do currently.
Are you sure they are not allowed to cast Up/Downs?
There should be an option for "Couldn't be arsed".
That option is there... just don't press anything. Also, Code S being Bo1? I can't even find words to describe how against that I am...
If the group stages were Bo3 that would be 10 Bo3 a night. That is an obscene amount of games to watch and commentate.
Well the obvious solution to that is to spread out the GSL tournament itself so that you're not doing that many Bo3, but I can understand that they can't do that right away. however, I'm afraid we're going to see a bunch of terrible upsets until they can implement Best of 3's all along the Code S.
On October 28 2011 11:10 Ownos wrote: Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
too complicated.
This could easily be simplified if they just wanted to freshen up the murkey waters of Code S (yaaay no more people like FD/Tester/HongUn clinging to their spots FOREVER).
i cant understand all this posts
its like the easiest system i ever see after i look at picture you see arrows where player go and can go to
why simplify that ? simply would only be like 64 player go top32 next last 32 out etc
thats boring
this system is really easy to understand i think and seeing poll over 9/10 people understand it, thats nice
you guys tend to crit everything new of fresh, instead of test and like it ! more drama more pressure more FUN!
On October 28 2011 13:18 Cel.erity wrote: So please, GOM, please at least allow Tastosis to cast the Up & Down Matches (which will still give them less airtime than the Code A casters in the current format), if not also the Code A Ro24. Tastosis should be casting around 66% of the games in GSL, not 25% as they are set up to do currently.
Are you sure they are not allowed to cast Up/Downs?
GOM makes the schedule and they just follow it. GOM pays Tastosis more, so they try to use the Code A casters whenever possible to save money. I believe that is the primary reason, but obviously I don't have all the facts. All I know is less Tastosis is bad for the GSL in terms of viewership and ticket purchases.
Edit: If you mean, am I sure they're not casting up/downs, no, I have no idea. I'm just making the plea.
On October 28 2011 15:27 Sea_Food wrote: I dislike how it takes a shit load of work to get into code-S, then you loose 4 games out of your next 5, and you are in code B.
I like it, it punishes players for taking a casual approach to the game. Now Code S "since november" or whatever actually means something since it's easy to fall in/out of it.
This seems way more complicated than it needs to be. It also basically invalidates the tier structure they had set up. Code A is no longer a complete tournament and the Up/Down matches don't have players dropping down from Code S against those coming up from Code A anymore. If they want to keep this format they should at least change the names for everything.
On October 28 2011 14:08 Fionn wrote: I don't know why they just don't do a group a day with the Code S groups all being Bo3. Without GSTL, they have two free days open. You could do Code A on Monday and Code S the rest of the week. They would still have the two days off and give the Code S players a better chance. It's quite harsh you can get placed in a tough group, lose twice and then be one step away from out of the GSL. sC, who got picked by Nestea, might lose to him, and then have to face asd/Losira, lose there and then have to fight for his life. At least with group Bo3, you can't go 0-4 and go from S to B in a blink of the eye.
Yeah seriously, I'm not sure what schedule Mr Chae is looking at.
While I'm sure that's all it takes, you've got to put into perspective studio costs & staff costs for those extra 2 days a week, and from what I understand from the Korean SC2 scene, it's not exactly bustling like it should be.
It would only be for 2 weeks since only the group stages need those extra days. They can easily fit it around GSTL (or lack of it atm)
It seems a little odd to run what is effectively next seasons's dual/survivor tournament alongside this season's main tournament, but it's nice to see all the code S slots gone.
Again, I wonder how this affects the prize pool. Theoretically this cuts the GSLs in half since it takes 2 months instead of 1 month now. Plus, Code S players getting top 32 obviously won't be getting paid. It is no wonder Code S players don't like the new format. They get paid potentially half as much due to the length of the tournaments and some would lose guaranteed money just for being in Code S.
there is so much thought put into this, sounds like a very good format, only thing i would really like is if one code a guy got a shot at winning the whole thing, could make for some epic stories
I like the changes in principle, though think they are selling it short by cutting off code A early and not having a "champion".
My biggest fear is the R32 and R16 of code S, as the pressure is now going to be even more intense, we're going to see even more 1 base all-ins and I think the quality of the games is just generally bad.
Just don't want to see good players cheesed out. Sure, they'll get a bo3 chance in the R48 of Code A, but always makes me a bit sad when cheese/all-in strategies can decide it, rather than being part of a calculated risk in Bo3.
Anyway, interested to see it play out, it's certainly going to be a tense R32 in Code S!!
I like that it's more volatile, but I hate that you can go from S to B in one GSL. Potentially 8 Code S players have the chance to be knocked out in one GSL? That's TOO volatile imo.
I like it overall but one thnig bothers me. If group play is still Bo1 double eliminiation, then a code S player can pretty much fall to code B losing only 4 maps... (i.e. 2 maps in group stage, then 2 maps in 1st round of code A)
I'm a bit afraid that we might see some top players fall to code B because of just a few maps
I'm just sad that there won't be a Code A champion.
There is definitely a certain amount of prestige that goes with being the Code A champion, and we've seen a LOT of really GREAT games in the semis and finals of Code A.
Most people here could probably name every one of the Code A finalists/champions from January to now.
The other thing is that I think only 8/32 staying in Code S isn't enough.
----------------------
edit: Also, I was really excited to see that group stages would be BO3. Now they're backtracking?
Sad day, they *really* need to be BO3. Especially since the losers are out of Code S.
My personal opinion is that the BO1 structure promotes the wrong people to the RO16, leading to the unequal finals that have plagued Code S. It takes a different set of skills to compete in a BO7 with the best in the world than it does to win 2 BO1 against different people.
1, Code S ,Round of 16 group play is not necessary as it does not need to distinguish 3th and 4th players from the group, they will be blended in Code A, Round of 24. Standard knock-out would be good enough here. 2,Does code A stop after round of 24, once 12 spots for code S have been determined ? ( I could still see prize listed for code A,liquipedia) 3, Players who lost from code A, round of 24 and 32 are also blended it into up and down matches with out considering where they were eliminated. Certainly players who made it into round of 24 should be given some kind of advantage over the one who got eliminated earlier, in round of 32.
Changes should be made to make it even better than the current state.
On October 28 2011 19:33 Kitaen wrote: 24 out of 32 code s players going to up&downs or code a requalify rounds is waaaaaaayyy too volatile
if it was 16 / 16 it'd be fine imho
The later you get "eliminated" from the Code S part of the tournament, the less matches you have to win to stay in Code S.
For instance the ones finishing in spot 9-16 in Code S has to win one BO3 or get first/second in group play vs 4 other players.
I think it's better and I think it was needed to get Code S down from 19 Terran players. (They also changed the map-pool to be less Terran friendly by among other things removing gold bases).
On October 28 2011 20:28 Thrombozyt wrote: Bo1 group stage sucks.. hard
They said last night it is bo3 group stage
From Mr Chae's Twitter It seems like they will consider Bo3, BUT for next year It will still be Bo1 this time, because they already have their schedule planned out, and there isn't enough air-time for Bo3 this GSL. :/
I think the better solution is not airing every match and have Bo3, that's better.
On October 28 2011 20:51 La1 wrote: i stoped looking at it when i saw code S still Bo1
that is the stupidist thing ever.. 1 misclick can loose you a game.. and get you knocked out of code s.. how dumb is that.
They've got a schedule to keep for this year. Come next year, perhaps they'll do bi-monthly tournaments with Bo3 first round matches which will let Code S players prove their worth better.
So it's actually solely a scheduling concern, and apparently Mr Chae acknowledged that they'll look into it come next year. I feel ya about the Bo3 being better, but it'll easily double the length of the entire tournament just by making the first round group stages Bo3. That'd be 5 x Bo3 per group, thus easily at least 1 night per group. Ro32 group stages then, assuming GSTL takes two days of the week, would then take about 3 weeks to get done, then Ro16 another 3 weeks...
Yeah, I mean I don't mind bi-monthly with more games obviously as a fan, but they just can't fit this in and their end of year tournament before christmas.
Well I think the graphic explains it pretty well, and the whole thing kinda reminds a bit of the Champions league/Europa cup seeding and I gotta say I like it.
On October 28 2011 18:36 seiferoth10 wrote: I like that it's more volatile, but I hate that you can go from S to B in one GSL. Potentially 8 Code S players have the chance to be knocked out in one GSL? That's TOO volatile imo.
I have seen multiple post saying that, but it's not the case unless I misunderstood ? If you lose the first code S round, you'll be code A next season, not current season (again, unless I'm mistaken) edit : oops, seems I was wrong, seeing the code A bracket.
On October 28 2011 19:33 Kitaen wrote: 24 out of 32 code s players going to up&downs or code a requalify rounds is waaaaaaayyy too volatile
if it was 16 / 16 it'd be fine imho
I disagree; Code A no longer has the stigma it did. If you fall out of Code S, you continue playing in Code A in the same season, with the potential to get back into the Code S bracket later on in the tournament.
Think of it as a losers bracket and no longer a separate tournament.
Regardless, losing in Code S no longer means you go to the Up and Downs necessarily, you can still get to Code S again just by placing high in Code A in the same season.
group stage code S is still best of 1?! I was hoping they'd change that to bo3...
I really don't like that format. It seems really unfair to all those guys who work their asses off to get into code S. bo3 is a much better display of skill!
On October 28 2011 20:22 SolidMustard wrote: I like it overall but one thnig bothers me. If group play is still Bo1 double eliminiation, then a code S player can pretty much fall to code B losing only 4 maps... (i.e. 2 maps in group stage, then 2 maps in 1st round of code A)
I'm a bit afraid that we might see some top players fall to code B because of just a few maps
That could still happen under the old system, it just happened over a period of 2 GSLs instead of one...
EDIT: I fail, forgot about the Up & Down Matches. But we all saw what happened to MC...
So, GOM realized that it is a major problem with this new system if group stages stay as Bo1, and they know for a fact that they won't have time to reschedule to change them into Bo3 until next year, and yet the went ahead and implemented this anyways?
That's a pretty dumb decision imo. Wouldn't the best course of action be simply just leaving thing as is for another month? All this does is potentially screwing some decent/deserved Code S players over simply due to chance and volatility of the game.
Anyone in Code S atm (yes even Nestea), can get unlucky/cheesed and lose 2 Bo1's, then get matched up against a decent up and coming player like Forgg or TheSTC, and lose a Bo3, then get knocked out of Code S in 4 maps. Sounds fun.
On October 31 2011 16:23 Fubi wrote: So, GOM realized that it is a major problem with this new system if group stages stay as Bo1, and they know for a fact that they won't have time to reschedule to change them into Bo3 until next year, and yet the went ahead and implemented this anyways?
That's a pretty dumb decision imo. Wouldn't the best course of action be simply just leaving thing as is for another month? All this does is potentially screwing some decent/deserved Code S players over simply due to chance and volatility of the game.
Anyone in Code S atm (yes even Nestea), can get unlucky/cheesed and lose 2 Bo1's, then get matched up against a decent up and coming player like Forgg or TheSTC, and lose a Bo3, then get knocked out of Code S in 4 maps. Sounds fun.
They were bo1 before this format change too no? Do you even watch GSL?
On October 27 2011 19:09 sitromit wrote: So there's no longer really a Code A tournament, there won't be a Code A winner, it's just a qualifier and nothing more... I don't know how I feel about that. It was nice to have Code A finals, we had some good ones...
THis said it very well. I actually enjoyed watching the Code A finals because it was always someone fresh and talented and not always tvt. If someone won Code A, they were pretty fricken sick because they had to make it there through supreme cheesers. I always rooted for the Code A winners at MLG. Now its just a qualifier? no excitement there.
On October 31 2011 16:23 Fubi wrote: So, GOM realized that it is a major problem with this new system if group stages stay as Bo1, and they know for a fact that they won't have time to reschedule to change them into Bo3 until next year, and yet the went ahead and implemented this anyways?
That's a pretty dumb decision imo. Wouldn't the best course of action be simply just leaving thing as is for another month? All this does is potentially screwing some decent/deserved Code S players over simply due to chance and volatility of the game.
Anyone in Code S atm (yes even Nestea), can get unlucky/cheesed and lose 2 Bo1's, then get matched up against a decent up and coming player like Forgg or TheSTC, and lose a Bo3, then get knocked out of Code S in 4 maps. Sounds fun.
They were bo1 before this format change too no? Do you even watch GSL?
On October 31 2011 16:23 Fubi wrote: So, GOM realized that it is a major problem with this new system if group stages stay as Bo1
Clearly, I stated it is more of a problem with this new system. And clearly I knew it was already Bo1 as implied when I said "if the groups STAY as Bo1". Do you even read?
Yes, it sucked in the old system too, and people had valid concerns for it as well. But it isn't as bad, because there is still a buffer of Up & Downs before you can get knocked out. 3 Steps to getting knocked out isn't as bad as 2 steps.
The game is volatile enough as it is, it shouldn't be complemented with a volatile tournament system, but instead the other way around.
I just posted this chart in the [GSL] Nov Preview thread, but realize now it belongs here. I'll repeat it here and maybe a Mod can get rid of the other one.
Anyways, I made a version that tracks the progress of players, but that made more sense to me. The colors all represent where that spot ends up after the round.
I'm not sure that it's any clearer than the GomTv version, but I hope that helps anyone still having trouble.
On October 31 2011 20:22 nimdil wrote: Funny thing. They created even more complicated format and yet the most awesome GSL tournament was Super Tournament. Plain and simple.
Do you have the tournament format of this one ? A link ?
Y do we need explainations for this? The graphic pretty much explains it, and I find the system very simpel, just looking complex. Anyways I prefer this system by a huge margin, may lead us to something like 15 terrans in code s at some wonderful point in time.
On November 01 2011 10:57 jamessooy wrote: I just posted this chart in the [GSL] Nov Preview thread, but realize now it belongs here. I'll repeat it here and maybe a Mod can get rid of the other one.
Anyways, I made a version that tracks the progress of players, but that made more sense to me. The colors all represent where that spot ends up after the round.
[image removed for brevity]
I'm not sure that it's any clearer than the GomTv version, but I hope that helps anyone still having trouble.
There could be as many as 24 new Code S players every season. That's really quite exciting.
I wish that to mitigate the effects of Code S players heading all the way to Code B, that they are thrown a bone like being seeded very highly in the offline qualifiers at least. It just seems wrong to be relegated two divisions so suddenly. It will happen. Maybe to Yugioh, maybe to asd. Maybe to MKP. But it will happen, and it will suck, and although we may get used to it eventually, maybe they'll figure out some adjustment to the system that will allow for this.
On October 27 2011 19:09 sitromit wrote: So there's no longer really a Code A tournament, there won't be a Code A winner, it's just a qualifier and nothing more... I don't know how I feel about that. It was nice to have Code A finals, we had some good ones...
THis said it very well. I actually enjoyed watching the Code A finals because it was always someone fresh and talented and not always tvt. If someone won Code A, they were pretty fricken sick because they had to make it there through supreme cheesers. I always rooted for the Code A winners at MLG. Now its just a qualifier? no excitement there.
Thats actually not true either. Code A is basically the same tournament as Code S now. If there is no excitement there then you imply that there is no excitement in Code S.
You can win the whole tournament coming from Code A. Code A and S is something like a double elimination system now, where some start in the lower bracket and some start in the upper bracket, with there being several ways of getting into either one of them. Basically, if you have a code A spot, you are already golden (regarding foreigners), you could potentially win the whole thing (pointing at our EG guys, idra, demuslim and huk aswell ofc)
On October 27 2011 19:09 sitromit wrote: So there's no longer really a Code A tournament, there won't be a Code A winner, it's just a qualifier and nothing more... I don't know how I feel about that. It was nice to have Code A finals, we had some good ones...
THis said it very well. I actually enjoyed watching the Code A finals because it was always someone fresh and talented and not always tvt. If someone won Code A, they were pretty fricken sick because they had to make it there through supreme cheesers. I always rooted for the Code A winners at MLG. Now its just a qualifier? no excitement there.
Thats actually not true either. Code A is basically the same tournament as Code S now. If there is no excitement there then you imply that there is no excitement in Code S. You can win the whole tournament coming from Code A. Code A and S is something like a double elimination system now, where some start in the lower bracket and some start in the upper bracket, with there being several ways of getting into either one of them. Basically, if you have a code A spot, you are already golden (regarding foreigners), you could potentially win the whole thing (pointing at our EG guys, idra, demuslim and huk aswell ofc)
Code B is now the sole qualifier for the tournament that consists of Code S and A.
Well I mean, not really no.
You only qualify for the next GSL. You don't get placed into a semi final.
You can win the next season sure, but it's not like the Championship Bracket at MLG.
On October 27 2011 19:09 sitromit wrote: So there's no longer really a Code A tournament, there won't be a Code A winner, it's just a qualifier and nothing more... I don't know how I feel about that. It was nice to have Code A finals, we had some good ones...
THis said it very well. I actually enjoyed watching the Code A finals because it was always someone fresh and talented and not always tvt. If someone won Code A, they were pretty fricken sick because they had to make it there through supreme cheesers. I always rooted for the Code A winners at MLG. Now its just a qualifier? no excitement there.
Thats actually not true either. Code A is basically the same tournament as Code S now. If there is no excitement there then you imply that there is no excitement in Code S.
You can win the whole tournament coming from Code A. Code A and S is something like a double elimination system now, where some start in the lower bracket and some start in the upper bracket, with there being several ways of getting into either one of them. Basically, if you have a code A spot, you are already golden (regarding foreigners), you could potentially win the whole thing (pointing at our EG guys, idra, demuslim and huk aswell ofc)
Code B is now the sole qualifier for the tournament that consists of Code S and A.
Not exactly.
You can't go straight from Code A to Code S champion in one season. The best you can do with this format is make it from Code A to Code S in a single season which is the same as how it worked in the previous format. This format's main goal is to lessen the Code S bottleneck so that is easier for people to move up out of Code A and also to increase the overall size of Code A making it easier for people to qualify from Code B.
On October 27 2011 19:09 sitromit wrote: So there's no longer really a Code A tournament, there won't be a Code A winner, it's just a qualifier and nothing more... I don't know how I feel about that. It was nice to have Code A finals, we had some good ones...
THis said it very well. I actually enjoyed watching the Code A finals because it was always someone fresh and talented and not always tvt. If someone won Code A, they were pretty fricken sick because they had to make it there through supreme cheesers. I always rooted for the Code A winners at MLG. Now its just a qualifier? no excitement there.
Thats actually not true either. Code A is basically the same tournament as Code S now. If there is no excitement there then you imply that there is no excitement in Code S.
You can win the whole tournament coming from Code A. Code A and S is something like a double elimination system now, where some start in the lower bracket and some start in the upper bracket, with there being several ways of getting into either one of them. Basically, if you have a code A spot, you are already golden (regarding foreigners), you could potentially win the whole thing (pointing at our EG guys, idra, demuslim and huk aswell ofc)
Code B is now the sole qualifier for the tournament that consists of Code S and A.
Not exactly.
You can't go straight from Code A to Code S champion in one season. The best you can do with this format is make it from Code A to Code S in a single season which is the same as how it worked in the previous format. This format's main goal is to lessen the Code S bottleneck so that is easier for people to move up out of Code A and also to increase the overall size of Code A making it easier for people to qualify from Code B.
Well yeah youre right, but if you are in Code A now, you basically have two BIG chances to get into code S, either by winning in the RO24, or by winning in the RO48 and then being guaranteed to go into the up and down matches. From there you are guaranteed a code A spot for next season and you can even qualify for code S. Its much better anyhow.
On November 09 2011 22:00 paschl wrote: are the code s ro16 groups also bo1? :o
Yes, they didn't have more time this season. They are looking into going for Bo3 for next season for both ro32 and ro16.
This would be awesome. GSL format has always been poor simply because there were too few games played. This is also part of the reason the finals were often bad as it's too easy for a fluke too happen (a relatively bad player reaching the finals like inca or top).
On November 09 2011 22:00 paschl wrote: are the code s ro16 groups also bo1? :o
Yes, they didn't have more time this season. They are looking into going for Bo3 for next season for both ro32 and ro16.
This would be awesome. GSL format has always been poor simply because there were too few games played. This is also part of the reason the finals were often bad as it's too easy for a fluke too happen (a relatively bad player reaching the finals like inca or top).
You mean good players like Inca and TOP? Even MMA can make it to the finals and make it a terrible finals. TOP's final was no less disappointing than MVP's most recent final.
Inca is actually better at BoX due to build order mind games, him making the finals in that season was no fluke, though a bit of bracket luck certainly helped.
Its good i think to reduce amount of terrans in the gsl, and to move people a lot. (Sarcasm Ahead) Some of the Code-S players became fat and dont want to move from code-s, so this will make people play better -----> better games.
Sorry if this has been answered, I did read a few pages but couldn't find it. How are they deciding the Ro. 16 groups players, are they random, or are they based on say, Player 1 from Group A ro.32 goes into Group D Ro. 16 kinda system?
EPT![[image loading]](http://img.gomtv.net/img/n_net/gsl_format.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://jamessooy.com/host/sc2/gsl_format_chartSm.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DoiDM.jpg)
, Anyways I made one too.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/c0CLf.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bJEID.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/agO0e.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mjVIg.png)
![[image loading]](http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6294/gslformatedit.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TvUlv.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lpqDx.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PZug8.jpg)
