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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On October 26 2011 08:43 envisioN . wrote: I get the shield upgrade price reduction but why the level 2 & 3 weapons and armor? Now Protoss' upgrades are cheaper than a Terran's Because if protoss doesn't have the upgrade advantage throughout the mid-game, their gateway units are worthless. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
Come again? I really don't get that.. When I play ZvP and don't harass they have no problem keeping up with me in worker production. It sounds like you're mistaking more expensive units for worse economy.. Please correct me? | ||
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Achilles306
Canada84 Posts
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On October 26 2011 08:33 MrSparkle wrote: Glad to see shield research cost dropped. Not sure why the others got dropped, but I'm not going to complain :D They still need to make at least one of the ghost's abilities researchable or go back to a higher gas cost before I stop crying myself to sleep at night, but this is a start. I would be glad to have ghosts cost more gas since MMMVG costs way more minerals than gas and longer games on maps like shakuras or metal are insanely difficult to win because of this. While Terrans can only use the gas of three expansions and the minerals of 5 to have a proper army composition Protosses can use the gas of a lot more bases to get to a proper army composition. Basically as Terran you outmine the minerals on your half of the map and if you couldn't kill the toss by then you have no way to win the game since you can't use the remaining gas. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
But I think this is really needed, protoss tech is just so expensive. Realize what it takes to get ling speed or stim, then look at having to get a twilight and charge. Or storm compared to emp/fungal. It costs protoss more than double the cost for very similar upgrades and protoss is stuck making at least a few sentries early also. It's really hard to have the gas for all of this without already having 3 bases and have an army that won't get steam rolled in the meantime. But when you consider the affects of the upgrade it makes even more sense. Stalkers get +1dmg per upgrade but they shoot much less often than stimmed MM or lings, and roaches get +2dmg for every +1 upgrade. So they are getting less dps increase per upgrade. Also, protoss units have their health split in half so they get less benefit from an armor upgrade than terran or zerg. This change should have been made ages ago honestly. The emp change is beautiful, I know I've lost plenty of games to terran because of emp where I was dominating the terran for 15 mintues (killing every drop, and every push without taking dmg) sniping expansions, doing my own drops. I get a base up and then a mid game battle happens and my army gets emp blanketed and evaporates to an army of 80% the cost. Than I go cry in a corner  Really if you make direct comparisons with terrans tech and units compared to protoss, a stalker would need almost 3x the damage to be what a marine is for cost, templar would be available after building a twilight and storm wouldn't require research. Charge and blink would be half the cost, a nexus would be able to hallucinate phoenix for scouting and be able to call down pylons for just energy. The reason none of this is the case, is because of how warp functions and FF's have a lot to do with it as well I think. Anyway, I'm sure many terran players are mad as hell right now. Just try not to think about what was taken away, and realize how many wins you got from protoss before these changes. Besides ghosts can still snipe templar at 10 range, cloak. This is much closer to how hard it is to feedback. One last thought, HUK go win the GSL  You are the BEST! | ||
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NguN
Australia1322 Posts
On October 26 2011 08:40 Lumi wrote: this doesn't address 1-1-1 or mass snipe planetary late-game in zvt  and randomly buffs toss in all match-ups?Almost all matchups are balanced in all regions says Blizzard, but TvP in Korea (60% for T), so it makes sense they did this. Seriously guys, they even said in Blizzcon they were going to do something like this. They said they wanted to nerf EMP and give Protoss a general buff. This isn't about the level of play that you're playing on, it's the pro's level. They're struggling, and the upgrade buff is going to actually matter on their level. On whatever level we're playing at, it's actually not going to make a difference. An extra 25/50 minerals in mid-late game isn't going to make Protoss super richer or anything. And 25/50 minerals, makes Protoss get that upgrade what, 5 seconds earlier then they could've before? | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
Ghosts are not going to be useless and upgrades are not going to break the game. Come on people use your brains. Even playing perfectly the upgrades would arrive only slightly sooner. EMP change just forces choice of what to EMP, and a choice on whether to use snipe instead. This is good as it creates battles within battles. Terrans should have to choose whether to snipe a single unit or risk missing HT/infestors with EMP. | ||
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Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
On October 26 2011 06:29 VPCursed wrote: why does toss need cheaper upgrades, dont they get 3-3 fast enough? I agree with this. The sheild upgrade cost reduction is good but weapons and armor are acctually worth what we were paying. Yay EMP is finally nerfed. | ||
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Mystogun
United States392 Posts
On October 26 2011 08:43 envisioN . wrote: I get the shield upgrade price reduction but why the level 2 & 3 weapons and armor? Now Protoss' upgrades are cheaper than a Terran's It makes sense for armor upgrades. Terran armor upgrades upgrade all of the health of the unit, whereas protoss armor only has an effect on 50-70% of the unit. We would need to get both armor and shield upgrade level 1 to be the same level as T. On this note, why do races need to be the same anyway? All the races are meant to be played a little differently, that's the point of having three asymmetric races in Starcraft. It's part of what makes Starcraft such an amazing game. Making all of the upgrades work in the same way for every single race just makes the game a little bit more stale. | ||
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PopcornColonel
United States769 Posts
Like really, really loving it. | ||
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TrickyGilligan
United States641 Posts
On October 26 2011 08:36 Nightshake wrote: Seriously, I am a master Terran AND Protoss, and it's always auto-win for me when the guy goes 1/1/1. This is and was never imba. These changes are because EMP's are strong. But PvT still have a better ratio than TvP. I mean, I have 90% vs Terran when I play Protoss and 20% vs Protoss when I play Terran. So that proves that... you suck as terran? I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Clearly if these results were typical, we as a community would be aware of it. We aren't, because it's a unique case that has no relation to overall balance. Thanks for your anecdote though. | ||
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partysnatcher
156 Posts
On October 26 2011 08:19 Alzadar wrote: Keep in mind that Zerg Armor upgrades work on 100% of a Zerg ground unit's health, whereas Protoss Armor only works on anywhere from 66% to 2% of a ground unit's health. Keep in mind the Lair / Hive requirements for Zerg upgrades, and keep in mind armor bonus effects like guardian shield and immortals shield. This patch is bad because it assumes T as almost balanced, Z as good, and P as completely underpowered. Any idiot can see that P and Z are pretty much at the same level - before this patch. It's strange to me that Zerg basically got building health and roach +1 range from one year of whining, but when the Protoss QQ-cannons start bawling this insane buff is given. Very strange. | ||
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acgFork
Canada397 Posts
This rocks, my brotoss bretherens! We will now be able to own up the triple forge build! | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
EMP nerf is VERY much needed. It will still be an awesome spell for Terrans, but maybe now they'll need a bigger investment in ghosts to totally decimate the P army. The shield upgrade thing is 100% necessary. The other upgrades are a nice little buff, especially in PvT--being ahead on upgrades is one of the only way to win gateway vs. terran bio fights without having a shitton of sentries. | ||
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A x i o M
United States78 Posts
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plated.rawr
Norway1676 Posts
"Protoss units scale worse than other units", some say. No, they don't. I agree that Gateway units do scale poorly, but at the same time, protoss get +2(+5) on Immortal and +2(x2) on Colossus for the price of their Gateway upgrades, which you can compare to giving free Armory upgrades for Terran or Air upgrades for Zerg with the standard Evolution chamber / Engineering bay upgrades. If anything, what they should do, is to keep Forge upgrades for Gateway-tier units, and change Robo upgrades to Cybernetics, togheter with the current air upgrades. If separated this way, they could buff the baseline (Forge) upgrades to help Gatway units without making the Robo units even more ridiculous, but as it stands now, buffing Forge upgrades is nonsensical. As for the entire EMP / Shield thing - reducing the cost of shield upgrade will still be pointless versus Terran, as EMP will still nullify it. What they SHOULD do, though, to make EMP weaker as a damage spell and at the same time make Shield upgrades more interesting, is to give each succeeding rank of Shield upgrade a level of immunity to EMP. Say, 25% for Shield 1, 50% for Shield 2 and 75% for Shield 3. This'd remove some of the "unfair" power EMPs bring to a PvT fight, and also actually give Shield upgrades their spot compared to their kinda bastardized position currently. Of course, then they'd have to actually balance Psi Storms and Colossus, but we'll take that as it comes. | ||
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TORTOISE
United States515 Posts
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On October 26 2011 08:43 FabledIntegral wrote: Yet it's heavily Protoss favored in US/EU. And if a game's being played professionally for several thousands of dollars, you shouldn't balance based on ladder. | ||
KristofferAG
Norway25712 Posts
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shawster
Canada2485 Posts
start at 1.75 and if it needs more tweeking tone it down imo. and the upgrades are bigger than one might think. gonna help a lot for pvt | ||
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