After reviewing player feedback, we’ve selected a 1v1 map pool composed of tournament-configured maps for the upcoming Season 4 of the StarCraft II ladder.
Six of the eight total maps in the Season 4 1v1 map pool will be maps that have been used in tournaments around the world. In addition, Shattered Temple and Metalopolis will be returning to the map pool, with close spawn positions disabled. Two non-tournament maps -- Abyssal
Caverns and Nerazim Crypt -- will also be included. Players can veto these two non-tournament maps and still have a single veto remaining for the remaining maps, just as a player would in a major tournament.
These maps will be removed:
(Wiki2)Backwater Gulch (Wiki2)Searing Crater (Wiki2)Typhon Peaks
Depending on the feedback we receive regarding this approach to the 1v1 ladder map pool, we may move further toward a tournament-configured map format in future ladder seasons. We look forward to hearing what you think, and we hope you all have a great Season 4!
Poll: Are you happy Blizzard changed the map pool at the last second ?
Yes,Adding Metal and removing Typhon,Backwater,and Searing Crater was the right choice! (3718)
98%
No,it was better before the changes made today. (64)
2%
3782 total votes
Your vote: Are you happy Blizzard changed the map pool at the last second ?
(Vote): Yes,Adding Metal and removing Typhon,Backwater,and Searing Crater was the right choice! (Vote): No,it was better before the changes made today.
This is amazing, thanks Blizz. Quite like there to be some additions to the map pool though, 8 maps seems a bit bare. Hope maybe 1 or 2 nice new ones maybe community or gsl ones ?!?!?!?
Great changes, nice to see Blizzard making changes in the right direction. They may be a bit slow, but at least it's going the right way
Also, don't forget about the current TL Map contest, the submission deadline is next monday, so we can expect to see the results for the end of November and hopefully the best maps will make it to the season 5 pool, or even earlier
On October 25 2011 22:21 Nikon wrote: Lol Metalopolis, and I was looking to play some games this season. At least I can veto it, but the amount of beta maps in the pool is just -.-;;
Whaaaaaaa?! Why would you ever veto Metalopolis?! Over half of the most fun games I've ever played happened on this map!
Yay for meta being back! I am however a little annoyed about it since i just switched to toss and pvp cannon rushes are very common on that map ;/ but yay anyway!!!
Sigh. Metalopolis is such a terrible map. I wish they'd start using more GSL and ESV maps. Everything prodiG and those guys have ever done is superior in everyway to Metal and most every other Blizzard map.
On October 25 2011 22:21 Nikon wrote: Lol Metalopolis, and I was looking to play some games this season. At least I can veto it, but the amount of beta maps in the pool is just -.-;;
Whaaaaaaa?! Why would you ever veto Metalopolis?! Over half of the most fun games I've ever played happened on this map!
Well they did remove it because Zerg had a 60% win rate on non-close positions.
What a beautiful map pool, I am truly soo happy. Searing crater was just a joke to be honest, was impossible to engage into such tiny chokes at the natural and was designed badly. Abbysal caverns is decent so I think apart from xel naga no maps will be vetoed this season.
Isn't anyone thinking this is WEIRD? I mean, SEA players didn't have a map pool change, and they announced there would be NO map pool change for 1v1 this season.
They also removed maps that the community didnt like, and added back Metalopolis despite it's supposed lack of balance that warranted it's removal last time.
Don't you guys think this could have been a mistake, and is due to fix in a short amount of time?
On October 25 2011 22:30 OneBk wrote: so that ladder is reset for NA? when does this come to EU?
tomorrow, we always get things overnight tues -> weds. Patches, new seasons, bla bla.
2/3 maps I vetoed are now gone which is nice, and I always enjoyed playing meta so yay, all in all I'm happy with this. An extra community map in there would be awesome though ^^
This goes to show how bad the blizz map making team is...out of all the maps they tried to introduce since season 2, how many are left? Abyssal and Nerazim Crypt which aren't really he best and are there only because they are "new"plus Antiga which is the only good map they have made since Shakuras. Oh well, guess i should stop being bitter..let's hope they got rid of close spawns!
On October 25 2011 22:21 Nikon wrote: Lol Metalopolis, and I was looking to play some games this season. At least I can veto it, but the amount of beta maps in the pool is just -.-;;
Whaaaaaaa?! Why would you ever veto Metalopolis?! Over half of the most fun games I've ever played happened on this map!
Well they did remove it because Zerg had a 60% win rate on non-close positions.
Terran has a 55% winrate vs Zerg on this map. It is literally turtle heaven. Terran can repeatedly deny Zerg 4th and 5th bases whilst taking the gold and simply oumatcroing. Too bad only Korean Terrans play like this.
On October 25 2011 22:29 SynapseSC wrote: Sigh. Metalopolis is such a terrible map. I wish they'd start using more GSL and ESV maps. Everything prodiG and those guys have ever done is superior in everyway to Metal and most every other Blizzard map.
i don't agree with meta being terrible however i do think they need to put in more of prodiG's maps. I would love it if they used all the GSL maps.
On October 25 2011 22:32 Teoita wrote: This goes to show how bad the blizz map making team is...out of all the maps they tried to introduce since season 2, how many are left? Abyssal and Nerazim Crypt which aren't really he best and are there only because they are "new"plus Antiga which is the only good map they have made since Shakuras. Oh well, guess i should stop being bitter..let's hope they got rid of close spawns!
That's definitely worse. I want more maps ( 10 or more ) and just add more vetoes if necessary. So now we are stuck with metalopolis, which by Blizzard statistics is zerg favored map, and we have 3 maps less.... Can't they just add Daybreak or Dual sight or something new. I'm so tired of the same maps all the time.
Rip searing crater ff abuse u will be missed I feel this was the only map that may have been toss favored so of course It gets axed after 1 season. atleast typoon is gone finally...wish they would have added a gsl map like daybreak or xelnaga fortress.
If they removed close spawns on this map, i'd suggest you guys take a look at the shattered temple that's in the pool, see if that still has close spawns!
I guess they heard all the rage from the community and decided to make some changes. Now I can veto metalopolis and shattered from map pool, cause they won't ever remove close pos anyways.
Let's hope the change was intented and that they are making room for tournament maps. That would GREATLY boost my activity on the ladder for sure (probably of the streaming pros as well).
Keep updating on the spawn positions guys. If close pos is indeed removed, it can't be a bug or anything..
On October 25 2011 22:37 IamPryda wrote: Rip searing crater ff abuse u will be missed I feel this was the only map that may have been toss favored so of course It gets axed after 1 season. atleast typoon is gone finally...wish they would have added a gsl map like daybreak or xelnaga fortress.
I have no idea if Searing crater was favored for any race, but I doubt they cut it because it was protoss favored. Simply put it was the worst map since lost temple/kulas ravine/dessert oasis.
Does that mean no close on shattered, and the others too?
Grrr..no change yet on sea, seems like this might have been a sudden change. Looks like they're trying to see what to do to get people back on the ladder.
On October 25 2011 22:21 Nikon wrote: Lol Metalopolis, and I was looking to play some games this season. At least I can veto it, but the amount of beta maps in the pool is just -.-;;
Whaaaaaaa?! Why would you ever veto Metalopolis?! Over half of the most fun games I've ever played happened on this map!
Well they did remove it because Zerg had a 60% win rate on non-close positions.
Actually zerg had 60% win ratio including close positions. Without it I'd guess it was even higher.
It appears that Blizzard has in fact removed close positions as verified in the Map Editor.
Exhibit A: Old Metalopolis spawning placements
Exhibit B: New Metalopolis spawning placements
I'd be happy to screenshot all of the spawning placements, but you can verify this for yourself by opening the new Metalopolis in the Map Editor.
Holy shit that's insane. That means Metalopolis was not added to the map pool by mistake.
I just wonder why wasn't there any announcement - maybe they were convinced to do that at blizzcon and decided to try it out of nowhere? Still pretty awesome imo.
I always felt like I didn't have enough Vetos. I'm soooo glad to see those maps gone.
Metalopolis back doesn't excite me even as zerg.... at least I can play a macro game on it but it's another one of those maps where Zerg can never ever take the gold ever, and you're basically helpless if your opponent does.
Blizz are really awesome people, saying no changes to s4 1v1 pool and then suprising us with this. Haven't played on meta yet, but I'm getting tears just thinking about how much I missed that map in s3.
Okay guys, it looks like close positions on The Shattered Temple has been removed as well. However, as Abyssal Caverns hasn't been updated and is still at 1.0, it is totally unchanged.
But I wish they would have announced the removal of typhon sooner I just spent all day practicing builds on it because it's the only map where it's really difficult to forge fast expand.
It's pretty lame to remove more maps than they add in.
I'm glad they've taken out some of the worse maps (though I liked Typhon) but it's going to be a little dull playing on such a small pool for the whole season.
Kind of a meh move, good, but would have been better if they'd put in say Daybreak and another good community map as well as returning Metalopolis.
yeah i was really disappointed at DB's response about maps during the kennigit interview. "oh yeah, that sounds like a big problem you guys are having..."
"...."
Just add in GSL/community maps to the fucking ladder! Embrace the community!
On October 25 2011 22:53 ikarus777 wrote: Okay guys, it looks like close positions on The Shattered Temple has been removed as well. However, as Abyssal Caverns hasn't been updated and is still at 1.0, it is totally unchanged.
This is actually awesome, I now have 3 vetoes I don't know what to do with. I still don't like abyssal caverns. But as for the other 2 they were hard choices! With close positions removed? It sounds like Blizzard finally did something right.
On October 25 2011 22:53 ikarus777 wrote: Okay guys, it looks like close positions on The Shattered Temple has been removed as well. However, as Abyssal Caverns hasn't been updated and is still at 1.0, it is totally unchanged.
I can post pics if needed.
Post pics for shattered because I think people are too excited to read and are missing your post.
Awesome. I never veto maps, because I don't like to be unprepared if I'm forced to play on them, but I'm glad to see those three go. And Meta back! wooooooo. As a Zerg that makes me very happy.
On October 25 2011 22:59 Tektos wrote: SEA is still the old bad maps, this makes me a sad panda
Just confirmed this by swapping between the two. What. The. Fuck. The new season already rolled over for us with no map changes, then they drop this on the US servers that's really poor, might have to ladder on NA just so I can get the decent map pool.
The best change that Blizzard have made to the map pool since release, removing close spawns, and they didn't announce it themselves!? Blizzard what are you doing to me.
On October 25 2011 23:00 Noocta wrote: Backwater is a nice map, i will never understand why people don't like it.
After I created a huge topic about it, apparently what make people dislike was - Multiple chokes - Control the middle = control the game - Siege Tanks on low ground = rape natural; some positions would favor this HEAVILY
On October 25 2011 23:00 Noocta wrote: Backwater is a nice map, i will never understand why people don't like it.
After I created a huge topic about it, apparently what make people dislike was - Multiple chokes - Control the middle = control the game - Siege Tanks on low ground = rape natural; some positions would favor this HEAVILY
Yay!!!! Now I can veto abyssal caverns because the other terrible maps aren't there anymore God, this map is terrible sometimes... to many bad experiences on it.
wow, this is great news for me. i hope the changes are the same in eu as well.
vertical positions on typhon and backwater versus terran was tough for me, and i don't think i won a game on searing crater at all. of course every loss on these maps are due to some fundamental shortcoming in my play, but the other maps didn't highlight them as frequently.
i didn't know metal was zerg favoured (according to tlpd it seems it's not), but it is my favourite map on the ladder so far, so maybe there's something to those claims.
The big news is that they removed close spawn, the news changed from "yeah whatever, metalopolis close spawn is horrible" to "yeaah map pool is getting decent"
On October 25 2011 23:04 nunez wrote: wow, this is great news for me. i hope the changes are the same in eu as well.
vertical positions on typhon and backwater versus terran was tough for me, and i don't think i won a game on searing crater at all. of course every loss on these maps are due to some fundamental shortcoming in my play, but the other maps didn't highlight them as frequently.
i didn't know metal was zerg favoured (according to tlpd it seems it's not), but it is my favourite map on the ladder so far, so maybe there's something to those claims.
It was Zerg favored across all regions in Master's and Grandmaster's on the Ladder.
To all who are mad they reduced the number of maps in the map pool:
It makes complete sense since they reduce the lenght of the season. Throwing in like 4 new maps and have a big map pool makes it harder to get to know all maps in just 2 months, when they change again. In my opinion its better to swap maybe 2 maps each season, the rotation will pretty much be the same anyways. So instead of having to practise many new maps each season, one can focus on just a few. This will propbably also improve the quality of the pool in general, as the don't have to add som many untested/bad maps every season.
On October 25 2011 23:00 Noocta wrote: Backwater is a nice map, i will never understand why people don't like it.
Yeah, I never really understood the hate for this map, I found it pretty decent after the natural ramp change, I would rather have had Abyssal Caverns removed.
Oh well, not a big deal anyways, its a step in the right direction, even if it's a bit dumb to remove close pos on metal/shattered 3 days after blizzcon -_-'
Having a map or two added into the pool * Daybreak * could have been nice, but they are probably waiting for the results of the TL map contest to do so.
Wait, I understand everyone likes Metalopolis, but wasn't it removed because, even with close positions in, it was still terribly imba in favour of Zerg, according to Blizzard's stats? Now it's back, with the close positions gone. Doesn't this mean that the balance issues will be made worse with the new version?
On October 25 2011 22:15 T.O.P. wrote: Already thumbed down Backwater Gulch Searing Crater
I don't really hate Typhoon Peaks as zerg because it's not impossible. You can win if you outplay your opponent.
2 close spawn maps now
Ive never noticed anything wrong with typhon but people always complain about it. Anybody care to elaborate on why they dont like it.
As protoss, the natural is open as hell, it's really hard to simcity it against z. Also with horizontal spawns, defending more than 3 bases is quite hard.
Thyphon was really hard for me as protoss against zerg. It allowed them to macro up really effectively while leaving me really open for muta/ling play or 3 base mass roach/ling. I dunno I just didn't feel like I could macro enough on that map without being crushed.
Searing was obivous and backwater was horrible against terrans. I am VERY pleased with the map pool. Not 1 map will be vetoed.
On October 25 2011 22:15 T.O.P. wrote: Already thumbed down Backwater Gulch Searing Crater
I don't really hate Typhoon Peaks as zerg because it's not impossible. You can win if you outplay your opponent.
2 close spawn maps now
Ive never noticed anything wrong with typhon but people always complain about it. Anybody care to elaborate on why they dont like it.
Its a labyrinth of chokepoints so basically terrible for any melee unit or any short ranged unit, and a playground of happiness for siege tanks and colossi.
I like metalopolis but I don't understand why they bring it back without close-spawns when it got removed for balance reasons previously (because Z was at 60% at all skill levels including close spawn).
Oh well it's still a great map. Overall good changes for zerg hehe.
On October 25 2011 23:08 Aim Here wrote: Wait, I understand everyone likes Metalopolis, but wasn't it removed because, even with close positions in, it was still terribly imba in favour of Zerg, according to Blizzard's stats? Now it's back, with the close positions gone. Doesn't this mean that the balance issues will be made worse with the new version?
That was before 1.4, wasn't it?
I'm guessing they think that balance problem is now fixed.
On October 25 2011 23:08 Aim Here wrote: Wait, I understand everyone likes Metalopolis, but wasn't it removed because, even with close positions in, it was still terribly imba in favour of Zerg, according to Blizzard's stats? Now it's back, with the close positions gone. Doesn't this mean that the balance issues will be made worse with the new version?
Take a look at SC2 Korea for Metal and you'll find Zerg isn't actually that amazing on this map. In fact, I am certain it is a Terran map. It has a gold base, and Terran can deny his opponent's gold. If Terran plays this style, it is very hard for Zerg to win.
On October 25 2011 23:09 Torte de Lini wrote: What maps should I ban if I'm Terran now?
Whatever maps you feel are difficult for you.
I personally find TvZ on Shattered Temple to be an unpleasant experience, but other Terran players are going to probably veto Tal'Darim Altar and Metalopolis.
On October 25 2011 22:15 T.O.P. wrote: Already thumbed down Backwater Gulch Searing Crater
I don't really hate Typhoon Peaks as zerg because it's not impossible. You can win if you outplay your opponent.
2 close spawn maps now
Ive never noticed anything wrong with typhon but people always complain about it. Anybody care to elaborate on why they dont like it.
The wide natural combined with the ramp position makes it awkward for Protoss openings, especially against Zerg. Also vertical spawn positions with the rocks in the middle leads to a lot of strong tank and colossus style games. It's also just one of those maps where people will sneak expansions because of the out of the way expansion locations. It's not a terrible map, but it's definitely not my favorite.
On October 25 2011 23:08 Aim Here wrote: Wait, I understand everyone likes Metalopolis, but wasn't it removed because, even with close positions in, it was still terribly imba in favour of Zerg, according to Blizzard's stats? Now it's back, with the close positions gone. Doesn't this mean that the balance issues will be made worse with the new version?
Games developed a lot since then, but it still is a map zergs like more yeah.
On October 25 2011 23:09 Mrfishystick wrote: Aww, I actually like Typhon Peaks. Oh well at least I don't have to play on Backwater Gulch, the most annoying PvP and PvT map to play on.
Amen.
Forcefields were obnoxious as hell on BWG. TvT wasn't much fun either.
On October 25 2011 23:09 Torte de Lini wrote: What maps should I ban if I'm Terran now?
Whatever maps you feel are difficult for you.
I personally find TvZ on Shattered Temple to be an unpleasant experience, but other Terran players are going to probably veto Tal'Darim Altar and Metalopolis.
Backwater and typhon were a lot better than all the new garbage maps blizzard release except antiga shipyard T_T will be vetoing meta now, retarded map. So good for drop play for terran and so easy to abuse protoss as zerg
My trust in you TL was not misplaced!! I just did my placement, zvz on shattered. Scouted with my overlord that he wasn't close air so I said to myself, 'well, if TL says close positions are off....' and proceeded to fast expand. And success!! Won it ez Really good changes!
But alas i was playing on SEA earlier today and these changes were not implemented. And i just checked again just then and the old map pool is still in place. Very strange why they would change NA and probably other servers, but not SEA. We shall see i guess.
blizz, how about adding terminus SE, crevasse, daybreak and belshir beach?? all of them are big enough that ppl would play macro games instead of sort of cheese play
I actually didn't mind typhon at all, definitely wasn't my favourite map but still it wasn't bad IMO. I had searing and backwater veto'd so glad they're gone anyway
Glad meta is back as long as I never get close spawns O_O
I don't necessarily understand the decision to bring back Metalopolis.. They took it out because it was one of the original beta maps and it had run its course for the time being. It was gone for ONE season, and now it's back, taking the place of three maps that weren't especially terrible.
Example of a terrible map? Slag pits. Steppes of War. There was nothing wrong with the three they took out... I think Metal needed a longer rest than just one season.
On October 25 2011 23:04 nunez wrote: wow, this is great news for me. i hope the changes are the same in eu as well.
vertical positions on typhon and backwater versus terran was tough for me, and i don't think i won a game on searing crater at all. of course every loss on these maps are due to some fundamental shortcoming in my play, but the other maps didn't highlight them as frequently.
i didn't know metal was zerg favoured (according to tlpd it seems it's not), but it is my favourite map on the ladder so far, so maybe there's something to those claims.
It was Zerg favored across all regions in Master's and Grandmaster's on the Ladder.
Tournament results are likely different.
i google now and see. "60%+ on the highest levels of play" should be reflected in the tlpd at least a bit more one would imagine, but then again i guess i don't know what they mean by highest levels of play.
weird that they'd put it back in and remove close position if the map was really that zerg favoured. if anything it will be more biased towards zerg. maybe this is an effort to balance out tvz in na, if they are not introducing the map in korea or eu, since the latest balance snapshot seemed to indicate tvz in na was the least balanced match-up for master/grandmaster.
On October 25 2011 23:19 AimlessAmoeba wrote: I don't necessarily understand the decision to bring back Metalopolis.. They took it out because it was one of the original beta maps and it had run its course for the time being. It was gone for ONE season, and now it's back, taking the place of three maps that weren't especially terrible.
Example of a terrible map? Slag pits. Steppes of War. There was nothing wrong with the three they took out... I think Metal needed a longer rest than just one season.
It's added back in because it's the best map made by blizzard to date. Good size, rational expansion progression, vulnerable golds (still good for terran but whatever) and a semi-open, close-to-main natural. It's just the best map.
On October 25 2011 23:09 Torte de Lini wrote: What maps should I ban if I'm Terran now?
Prob metal
I need two more :B
I don't think there is really a fixed list of maps that you have to veto because they are unplayable with this new map pool. Imo the best would be to play for a while without vetoing maps, and then vetoing the maps you dislike personally
I really hate Abyssal Caverns, so I will most likely veto it, haven't decided on the two others yet.
On October 25 2011 23:19 AimlessAmoeba wrote: I don't necessarily understand the decision to bring back Metalopolis.. They took it out because it was one of the original beta maps and it had run its course for the time being. It was gone for ONE season, and now it's back, taking the place of three maps that weren't especially terrible.
Example of a terrible map? Slag pits. Steppes of War. There was nothing wrong with the three they took out... I think Metal needed a longer rest than just one season.
1) Those maps are terrible. There's a reason why Metalopolis was a map still used in tournaments. When have you ever seen the 3 removed maps in tournaments except for Blizzcon Qualifiers and NASL (Backwater Gulch)?
2) Their reason for removing Metalopolis was also because of close spawns, so it seems right that they remove shit maps and replace them with old and better maps. A lot of the BW maps have been used for years because they're just good.
I rather liked Typhon, even as Zerg. Yes, there were lots of chokes, but there were also lots of counter attack paths, and none of the expos were rock blocked. And buried banelings were really good on that map, as were fungals.
Sure, you had to use different expansion patterns in different spawn locations. But none of them were utterly retarded like on close position metal or temple.
Even vertical close position with the shortcut wasn't too much of a problem, and often backfired on the terran or protoss if he tried to go for it. You could easily pin his army in there while destroying all his bases.
The matchup that took me the longest to get right on it was ZvZ, because hatch first is a bit tough to pull off there. But eventually I got that down consistently too.
On October 25 2011 23:18 harobi wrote: blizz, how about adding terminus SE, crevasse, daybreak and belshir beach?? all of them are big enough that ppl would play macro games instead of sort of cheese play
blizzard have many times said that they like to somewhat encourge and have 1 base cheesy'ish play very vaild. So they probably wont just have tons of macro maps even tough most of the community wants it that way.
On October 25 2011 22:15 T.O.P. wrote: Already thumbed down Backwater Gulch Searing Crater
I don't really hate Typhoon Peaks as zerg because it's not impossible. You can win if you outplay your opponent.
2 close spawn maps now
Ive never noticed anything wrong with typhon but people always complain about it. Anybody care to elaborate on why they dont like it.
I (I'm master league protoss) always vetoed it in case of PvP AND PvZ... You cannot FFE against a Z without risking him just roachbusting your natural... In pvp the corner with the bushes just gave a way to proportion of cheese and blink potential (sniping spotter pylons from low ground - blinking up and then first attack when blink is already done = no risk with attacking into the main)
In PvT I found it to be quite alright. But having a 50% (PvT and some PvP were fine) map is just not good enough for me not to veto it
On October 25 2011 23:18 harobi wrote: blizz, how about adding terminus SE, crevasse, daybreak and belshir beach?? all of them are big enough that ppl would play macro games instead of sort of cheese play
blizzard have many times said that they like to somewhat encourge and have 1 base cheesy'ish play very vaild. So they probably wont just have tons of macro maps even tough most of the community wants it that way.
Please do not pull fabricated statistics ("most of the community") out of your ass.
On October 25 2011 23:19 AimlessAmoeba wrote: I don't necessarily understand the decision to bring back Metalopolis.. They took it out because it was one of the original beta maps and it had run its course for the time being. It was gone for ONE season, and now it's back, taking the place of three maps that weren't especially terrible.
Example of a terrible map? Slag pits. Steppes of War. There was nothing wrong with the three they took out... I think Metal needed a longer rest than just one season.
1) Those maps are terrible. There's a reason why Metalopolis was a map still used in tournaments. When have you ever seen the 3 removed maps in tournaments except for Blizzcon Qualifiers and NASL (Backwater Gulch)?
2) Their reason for removing Metalopolis was also because of close spawns, so it seems right that they remove shit maps and replace them with old and better maps. A lot of the BW maps have been used for years because they're just good.
That doesn't change the fact that its dated and boring - You don't evolve the map pool by going back to the old standard, just because it works. You evolve it by constantly tossing in something new and risky every now and then.
The "those maps are terrible" argument is personal opinion and nothing more.
On October 25 2011 23:19 AimlessAmoeba wrote: I don't necessarily understand the decision to bring back Metalopolis.. They took it out because it was one of the original beta maps and it had run its course for the time being. It was gone for ONE season, and now it's back, taking the place of three maps that weren't especially terrible.
Example of a terrible map? Slag pits. Steppes of War. There was nothing wrong with the three they took out... I think Metal needed a longer rest than just one season.
1) Those maps are terrible. There's a reason why Metalopolis was a map still used in tournaments. When have you ever seen the 3 removed maps in tournaments except for Blizzcon Qualifiers and NASL (Backwater Gulch)?
2) Their reason for removing Metalopolis was also because of close spawns, so it seems right that they remove shit maps and replace them with old and better maps. A lot of the BW maps have been used for years because they're just good.
That doesn't change the fact that its dated and boring - You don't evolve the map pool by going back to the old standard, just because it works. You evolve it by constantly tossing in something new and risky every now and then.
The "those maps are terrible" argument is personal opinion and nothing more.
The seasons are only two months now. If you don't like this current map pool you won't have very long to wait before its updated again.
On October 25 2011 23:19 AimlessAmoeba wrote: I don't necessarily understand the decision to bring back Metalopolis.. They took it out because it was one of the original beta maps and it had run its course for the time being. It was gone for ONE season, and now it's back, taking the place of three maps that weren't especially terrible.
Example of a terrible map? Slag pits. Steppes of War. There was nothing wrong with the three they took out... I think Metal needed a longer rest than just one season.
1) Those maps are terrible. There's a reason why Metalopolis was a map still used in tournaments. When have you ever seen the 3 removed maps in tournaments except for Blizzcon Qualifiers and NASL (Backwater Gulch)?
2) Their reason for removing Metalopolis was also because of close spawns, so it seems right that they remove shit maps and replace them with old and better maps. A lot of the BW maps have been used for years because they're just good.
That doesn't change the fact that its dated and boring - You don't evolve the map pool by going back to the old standard, just because it works. You evolve it by constantly tossing in something new and risky every now and then.
The "those maps are terrible" argument is personal opinion and nothing more.
The seasons are only two months now. If you don't like this current map pool you won't have very long to wait before its updated again.
That's not my point. It's not that I don't like the map pool - it's the pandering to the old maps for safety's sake. It's essentially a waste of a map cycle I guess.
Anyway, it's not worth arguing anymore. It'll be neat to get back on Metal I suppose.
This makes me happy, less because the maps are gone (I vetoed them anyway) than because it seems likely that Blizzard might have removed them with the intention of reviewing some new maps to be included.
One of these days, they're going to notice that there's this incredibly talented mapmaking community that produces at least one or two new maps a month that are good enough to deserve a ladder rotation. And that tons of us who don't have a lot of regular practice partners are dying to play matches on maps like Terminus and Dual Sight that we've been watching our heroes play on in tournaments. When they actually start responding rationally to those two bits of information, I am going to be such a happy camper :-D.
On October 25 2011 23:32 KenZo- wrote: Strange... NA ladder pool changed, while SEA stayed the same.. O_O, anyone confirm this is so for this season ?
SEA is still the same, NA has changed though. I just checked it myself. It was either a mistake by the sea staff or a last minute decision to change the map pool Either way it will probably be updated tomorrow when the staff come back in.
On October 25 2011 23:19 AimlessAmoeba wrote: I don't necessarily understand the decision to bring back Metalopolis.. They took it out because it was one of the original beta maps and it had run its course for the time being. It was gone for ONE season, and now it's back, taking the place of three maps that weren't especially terrible.
Example of a terrible map? Slag pits. Steppes of War. There was nothing wrong with the three they took out... I think Metal needed a longer rest than just one season.
1) Those maps are terrible. There's a reason why Metalopolis was a map still used in tournaments. When have you ever seen the 3 removed maps in tournaments except for Blizzcon Qualifiers and NASL (Backwater Gulch)?
2) Their reason for removing Metalopolis was also because of close spawns, so it seems right that they remove shit maps and replace them with old and better maps. A lot of the BW maps have been used for years because they're just good.
That doesn't change the fact that its dated and boring - You don't evolve the map pool by going back to the old standard, just because it works. You evolve it by constantly tossing in something new and risky every now and then.
The "those maps are terrible" argument is personal opinion and nothing more.
Oh I don't know about that. I think the community has been largely in agreement that Backwater, Typhoon and Searing Crater were all incredibly awful maps. I have no problem with them adding Metalopolis back, sure I would like to see them add more new maps preferably community made maps but then again I get the feeling Blizzard is spending more time focusing on HotS than ladder maps atm, especially with Blizzcon just occurring.
I'm mostly excited that Metalopolis is back because I have a super special ZvP cheese tactic that I love to use that only works on that map, HURRAH!
On October 25 2011 23:32 KenZo- wrote: Strange... NA ladder pool changed, while SEA stayed the same.. O_O, anyone confirm this is so for this season ?
The maps aren't actually bound to the ladder seasons - we've seen maps removed and added midseason before (Shakuras when it was found to be buggy, for example). They probably just haven't updated the list on SEA yet, there's no reason to think they'd leave a different map list on one server.
On October 25 2011 23:32 KenZo- wrote: Strange... NA ladder pool changed, while SEA stayed the same.. O_O, anyone confirm this is so for this season ?
The maps aren't actually bound to the ladder seasons - we've seen maps removed and added midseason before (Shakuras when it was found to be buggy, for example). They probably just haven't updated the list on SEA yet, there's no reason to think they'd leave a different map list on one server.
I'm thinkking that NA is a test subject. considering the positive reaction, should expect it for all servers.
On October 25 2011 23:19 AimlessAmoeba wrote: I don't necessarily understand the decision to bring back Metalopolis.. They took it out because it was one of the original beta maps and it had run its course for the time being. It was gone for ONE season, and now it's back, taking the place of three maps that weren't especially terrible.
Example of a terrible map? Slag pits. Steppes of War. There was nothing wrong with the three they took out... I think Metal needed a longer rest than just one season.
1) Those maps are terrible. There's a reason why Metalopolis was a map still used in tournaments. When have you ever seen the 3 removed maps in tournaments except for Blizzcon Qualifiers and NASL (Backwater Gulch)?
2) Their reason for removing Metalopolis was also because of close spawns, so it seems right that they remove shit maps and replace them with old and better maps. A lot of the BW maps have been used for years because they're just good.
That doesn't change the fact that its dated and boring - You don't evolve the map pool by going back to the old standard, just because it works. You evolve it by constantly tossing in something new and risky every now and then.
The "those maps are terrible" argument is personal opinion and nothing more.
Blizzard actually does something right for once, and you still bash them? I really hope you are joking or that you are misreading something. If not I feel sorry for you. It must be terrible going through life a curmudgeon.
On October 25 2011 22:15 T.O.P. wrote: Already thumbed down Backwater Gulch Searing Crater
I don't really hate Typhoon Peaks as zerg because it's not impossible. You can win if you outplay your opponent.
2 close spawn maps now
Ive never noticed anything wrong with typhon but people always complain about it. Anybody care to elaborate on why they dont like it.
2 forcefields are enough to cut any army in half everywhere on this map (except in the middle witch is boring...). It's also hard to pressure the third base. Vertical Close position is also hard in ZvT.
The season 4 map pool looks awesome. I hope season 5 will receive some new maps from the Teamliquid Map Contest
What I'd really like to see is like, one Ladder Map spot that is specifically reserved for Community made maps, have it rotate out rather consistently, if the community falls in love with the map they could consider adding it to the standard map pool, if not then you know it gets rotated out with a new one every month or so. This would be a great way to give community made maps some real exposure and appreciation since I really do think there are a lot of very cool maps out there that we will never really get to experience.
On October 25 2011 23:32 KenZo- wrote: Strange... NA ladder pool changed, while SEA stayed the same.. O_O, anyone confirm this is so for this season ?
The maps aren't actually bound to the ladder seasons - we've seen maps removed and added midseason before (Shakuras when it was found to be buggy, for example). They probably just haven't updated the list on SEA yet, there's no reason to think they'd leave a different map list on one server.
Yeah I know, but since SEA was first to get season 4, It's strange that they did a map pool change on NA, and not SEA.., but like another guy said, might have been last second decisions. Probably will get updated. I was just looking at lis on NA first, and then went to SEA, and saw it was different. Thats why I asked.. d
On October 25 2011 22:48 Bullet wrote: would be a great ladder pool if no close spawns! :D
But some maps have fair close positions specificly my taldarim and antiga shipyard, infact i would prefer if the seigable 3rds from a main positions were taking out, lol
I understand that Typhon Peaks had a third which was easy to take as Zerg, and drop harrass was difficult to stop considering Terrans could drop your main or third in immediate succession, but I'm a little sad to see it go.
On October 25 2011 23:41 kinglemon wrote: typhoon peaks was a great map. and i'd much rather like to see dual sigh instead of meta. meta is really boring to see.
Dual sights is a fucking nightmare for Protoss. It's obscenely hard to secure and defend 3 bases PvZ.
On October 25 2011 23:19 AimlessAmoeba wrote: I don't necessarily understand the decision to bring back Metalopolis.. They took it out because it was one of the original beta maps and it had run its course for the time being. It was gone for ONE season, and now it's back, taking the place of three maps that weren't especially terrible.
Example of a terrible map? Slag pits. Steppes of War. There was nothing wrong with the three they took out... I think Metal needed a longer rest than just one season.
1) Those maps are terrible. There's a reason why Metalopolis was a map still used in tournaments. When have you ever seen the 3 removed maps in tournaments except for Blizzcon Qualifiers and NASL (Backwater Gulch)?
2) Their reason for removing Metalopolis was also because of close spawns, so it seems right that they remove shit maps and replace them with old and better maps. A lot of the BW maps have been used for years because they're just good.
That doesn't change the fact that its dated and boring - You don't evolve the map pool by going back to the old standard, just because it works. You evolve it by constantly tossing in something new and risky every now and then.
The "those maps are terrible" argument is personal opinion and nothing more.
People will always complain as long as theres room for an opinion.
But anyway i guess this mean S4 started right? Can't wait till i get time to play these maps w/o close positions and never have to fear getting 6 pooled YAY
Blizzard actually does something right for once, and you still bash them? I really hope you are joking or that you are misreading something. If not I feel sorry for you. It must be terrible going through life a curmudgeon.
On October 25 2011 23:41 kinglemon wrote: typhoon peaks was a great map. and i'd much rather like to see dual sigh instead of meta. meta is really boring to see.
Dual sights is a fucking nightmare for Protoss. It's obscenely hard to secure and defend 3 bases PvZ.
well they also removed meta because it was z favored and now they bring it back.
Oh sick, they removed all 3 of my veto'd maps. I guess we all hated the same maps.
Now I'm only going to have Metal veto'd because I hate it. I don't know why anyone other than zerg players would like Metalopolis unless they made major changes to it. I recall Blizzard releasing figures about zerg having a >60% win rate on metal, and that was with close spawns ENABLED...
*scratches head*
I hate metal. If they forced it to cross spawns and removed close by air too, maybe it would be better. Or maybe 2gate phoenix is the way to go for map control? That being said I had taking that nat regardless. Fuck metalopolis. lol
Oh so there's just less maps now? I guess that's OK, since at least metal is a fun map
Typhon and backwater weren't horrible maps (at least the first), but they got rid of Searing Crater yay!
If they got rid of close positions... omg lol
Blizzard does listen always haha
Edit: OMG they did fix close?!
For Abyssal if they didn't get rid of close positions that's fine, the rush distance is much farther than Metal's close and I think Shattered's close too. Even if it's just by a few seconds, that's a lot. Also the map is made in a way so that you can defend or see an enemy push on top of the ramp leading to the the low ground base between two players, so there's some defender's advantage there (unless they want to go around and break the rocks).
I guess sea will need to wait for an update. I don't think its a bug as previously mentioned, since its unlikely that they have a new metalopolis if that was the case.
Im not too pleased with the return of metal as a protoss player but the removal of close positions is a step in the right direction, im personally not too bothered by metal coming back as they have also cut my downvoted maps so ill have a few votes spare Gj blizzard keep making smart decisions like this.
Wow, this map pool is a huge improvement from before, I have more vetoes than I need! Good to know they finally listened and removed close positions. Hmm...guess I'll be vetoing Metalopolis though, but still glad to see it in place of all those other maps.
Who else believes this change happened due to blizzard seeing nestea vs mvp on shattered temple close positions? Close positions being imbalanced aside, blizzard got to witness first hand how boring it is to watch close positions unfold. Nestea vs mvp was so hyped and then taken from us due to close positions enabled.
Glad they finally realized that close positions suck.
On October 26 2011 00:31 gh0un wrote: Who else believes this change happened due to blizzard seeing nestea vs mvp on shattered temple close positions? Close positions being imbalanced aside, blizzard got to witness first hand how boring it is to watch close positions unfold. Nestea vs mvp was so hyped and then taken from us due to close positions enabled.
Glad they finally realized that close positions suck.
Yes, if anyone at Blizzard read Reddit or TL at that point they would have got a hint from the community there as well. Just a little.
On October 25 2011 23:00 Noocta wrote: Backwater is a nice map, i will never understand why people don't like it.
After I created a huge topic about it, apparently what make people dislike was - Multiple chokes - Control the middle = control the game - Siege Tanks on low ground = rape natural; some positions would favor this HEAVILY
So yeah, people have a point...
yep its a horrible map.
Those are all good reasons. I actually just couldn't stand having one map where walling off didn't work right.
blerg no close posis anymore how annoying. Not that it matters close air is close posi for a terran as well <3. Will miss the free wins as zerg when i got close posi =(. Well every other posi is free win on meta for a zerg as well unless the terran wants to play a 50 minute game :p. Its funny that they forgot sea though, maybe a last minute decision only for the us to test some winrates.
On October 25 2011 23:55 ikarus777 wrote: Abyssal still has close positions. It hasn't been updated and remains at version 1.0
But on abyssal you can always expand away from your opponent reasonably. On close positions you just expand to the gold, if necessary as zerg with a macro hatch first before destroying the rocks.
Also, on abyssal caverns you have ramps and chokes to delay the opponent when he approaches from close positions.
The 4 player map with the least positional imbalance is Typhon Peaks I think, but Abyssal Caverns is not far behind that.
I though peaks was a decent map. Wasn't my favorite but I played a couple of god games on it. Vertical spawns was probably a bit of a pain for some mus though.
I get the feeling metal and shattered are going to have a lot of zergs playing on it when they stop asking the forum and actually look at the posts to see close positions on both of them are gone. as a terran i'm vetoing metal for sure.
Funny they removed close position for the ladder now, but in Blizzcon they still had close positions =P Other than that, it's amazing they removed them!
Wow very good news, I just got siege push on 2 bases on close spawn Shattered Temple, couldn't stop that shit in time, there was already a ring of bunkers and turrets, haha :D
On October 26 2011 01:28 mvtaylor wrote: Sweet, bit of a shame about Typhon Peaks as it wasn't the worst map in the world but come on Blizz, roll out Season 4 for EU!
EU ladder resets / or patches always come on Wednesdays.
OMG this is so nice man love the changes but would have been some what better if there r new maps though but removed close spawn just love it TvT in that position is just retarded
I love how blizzard has now decided to have a tournament map pool (as said in the blog). I hope this means that theres going to more GSL maps implemented in the future, or at least maps that are used widely in lots of tournaments.
"We may move further toward a tournament-configured map format in future ladder seasons."
Once again Blizzard proves that they do listen to their community! Thank you Blizzard for honestly being one of the greatest gaming companies (in my mind THE greatest!) in the world. GOOD JOB!
On October 25 2011 23:19 AimlessAmoeba wrote: I don't necessarily understand the decision to bring back Metalopolis.. They took it out because it was one of the original beta maps and it had run its course for the time being. It was gone for ONE season, and now it's back, taking the place of three maps that weren't especially terrible.
Example of a terrible map? Slag pits. Steppes of War. There was nothing wrong with the three they took out... I think Metal needed a longer rest than just one season.
1) Those maps are terrible. There's a reason why Metalopolis was a map still used in tournaments. When have you ever seen the 3 removed maps in tournaments except for Blizzcon Qualifiers and NASL (Backwater Gulch)?
2) Their reason for removing Metalopolis was also because of close spawns, so it seems right that they remove shit maps and replace them with old and better maps. A lot of the BW maps have been used for years because they're just good.
That doesn't change the fact that its dated and boring - You don't evolve the map pool by going back to the old standard, just because it works. You evolve it by constantly tossing in something new and risky every now and then.
The "those maps are terrible" argument is personal opinion and nothing more.
Blizzard actually does something right for once, and you still bash them? I really hope you are joking or that you are misreading something. If not I feel sorry for you. It must be terrible going through life a curmudgeon.
You and I have supremely differing opinions on the definition of "bashing". Furthermore, I've never really complained about anything Blizzard has done with Starcraft. Don't lump me in with the mob, sir.
On October 26 2011 01:46 Al Bundy wrote: Dude these maps are great for ladder, this is good news, but some of them are more than 1 year old, I don't want to see them in tournaments anymore.
On October 26 2011 01:46 Al Bundy wrote: Dude these maps are great for ladder, this is good news, but some of them are more than 1 year old, I don't want to see them in tournaments anymore.
I'm sick of metalopolis Xel'naga and such
Downvooootes.
I don't mind playing them on ladder, if anything I'd want the progamers to downvote these maps in tournaments. Anyway, except for GSL and Korean weekly, I feel that the tournaments map pool is way too static.
I'd play backwater gulch than Xel naga ANY DAY. Only reason why pros said it was a good map was because we had steppes of war then. Not to mention , why does sea server have different map pool than NA?.
On October 26 2011 01:49 kurrysauce wrote: I'd play backwater gulch than Xel naga ANY DAY. Only reason why pros said it was a good map was because we had steppes of war then. Not to mention , why does sea server have different map pool than NA?.
You have one veto besides the two non-tournament maps. Veto xel'naga?
Why are they still using Metalopolis. That map looks stupid, and is way too old. We can't learn more about map design and race balance if we keep using this map. Who designs their maps? They need a dedicated map designer for pete's sake.
Can someone please direct blizzard to the poll on this site. I support their decisions 99%. Only way it could have been better is if the other 2 maps were tournament maps as well.
Thinking about it, I would love to veto PvP on metal, xnc and tal'darim. If only I could veto for a matchup specifically......The amount of silly shenanigans that can happen on those maps in PvP is just stupid.
It is a better map pool than before, but I'd rather get a whole set of new maps than to keep playing the same maps we've been playing since release and even beta.
I love metal as a map, but we've played it so much. I also wish they'd make new maps without any flaws instead of jury-rigging a four player map by disabling spawns.
On October 26 2011 02:00 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: Kinda sad there are no new/community maps, especially cause there are a lot of great community maps... like bel shir and dual sight.
But this was such a great choice. Great to be able to practice on ladder choosing either large or small maps to play on, instead of crappy vs good.
BelShir and DS are both fairly imbalanced maps, imho
Honestly I dont care that much about which Maps they select for each season but the fact that it was based on the community feedback this time is a big plus for them.
On October 26 2011 02:00 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: Kinda sad there are no new/community maps, especially cause there are a lot of great community maps... like bel shir and dual sight.
But this was such a great choice. Great to be able to practice on ladder choosing either large or small maps to play on, instead of crappy vs good.
BelShir and DS are both fairly imbalanced maps, imho
QFT. Not very good maps. I hope GSL switches them out soon
I don't think I've lost any games primarily due to the map it was played on, but I also think that I've had less awesome games due to the maps I've played on.
So happy with this map pool! That being said, I'd really like to see paid name changes available, as well as the ability to watch replays together.
I'm resigned to the fact that lan support won't come until Legacy of the Void or later (or never), but would really enjoy clan support and would be nice to see our losses if we aren't Masters or GM. I understand not letting bronze players see them, so they don't get demoralized, but I think anyone in at least Plat and Diamond would like to see their win/loss ration (maybe make it an option to toggle on and off...).
And as if it wasn't enough there's the line: "Depending on the feedback we receive regarding this approach to the 1v1 ladder map pool, we may move further toward a tournament-configured map format in future ladder seasons"
Taking a look at the feedback right now (1096 to 20) i think this has a very good chance of happening =)
Metalopolis and Shakuras lost the close spawns to resemble the tournament versions. But did they add those neutral supply barracks at the ramps as well?
Great call by Blizzard, not so much for eliminating Typhon/Backwater/Searing Crater (although that was good too) but for finally acknowledging close spawns making for poor games. This means future map pool decisions probably won't have that particular monster rearing its ugly head again. Way to go!
So bitchy about everything. Blizzard makes a great change and everyone is immediately complaining they didn't change more. No wonder Blizzard doesn't take anything we say seriously.
On October 26 2011 02:00 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: Kinda sad there are no new/community maps, especially cause there are a lot of great community maps... like bel shir and dual sight.
But this was such a great choice. Great to be able to practice on ladder choosing either large or small maps to play on, instead of crappy vs good.
Yes, I hope they put Dual Sight in. It is really fun to play games as protoss with an untakeable third and an auto-loss in PvZ.
thanks blizzard, you are slowly trying to make things right, a lot of people maybe dont realise it but you are trying to really make this work, not just throwing money at it!
This is easily the best map pool they've had since release.
Granted nerazim crypt and abyssal are kind of shitty, but they're at least playable, and worst case they can be unchecked. All the other maps kick ass!
I despise close positions as Terran as I like to have some time to set up a nice infrastructure whilst possibly doing some nice pressure but close positions made roach timings super hard to deal with, siege timings and immortal timings, whilst being much easier to scout also could be tough.
I like how it makes proxies slightly more powerful too, as I dont mind cheese as a relatively skilled player you know how to deal with and its good practice to scout, so bolstering cheese is fine if 1 - 2 base allins are weakened.
Veto on Nezarim for sure, find it so hard to take a 4th vs heavy muta balls, its brutal. Never really liked Abyssal because of close positions so havent played it much, if its still close positions I wont bother with it either.
Might use my other veto on xel naga, it feels a bit too cramped these days but at the same time Im also starting to feel that tal darim is just too big, despite really liking it, sometimes TvZ can feel hopeless.
I will say Typhon didnt need to be removed though, whilst perhaps not tournament suitable I think it was decent for ladder, still though, overall a fantastic decision by Blizz, big props.
I had Backwater , Searing, and Typhon already on veto, so nothing new there. Not sure if I will veto Nerazim and Abyssal, but Meta is an instant veto, cause of PvZ. It's so freaking hard.
This is fantastic - shattered without close positions will be great, and they removed all the maps that I had veto'd. So even though I'm not a fan of metalopolis, I can easily veto it and have two more to spare. I may veto Xel Naga just because I dislike PvP on that map, but even then I have another veto that I have no interest in using - this map pool is really good now, or at least not outright bad, in my opinion.
Fucking FIN-AL-LY. It took them long enough. Thanks bliz. The map pool finally looks good enough, that tournaments can finally start using primarily ladder maps if they want to. A+++++
I'm really impressed. My guess is this decision has something to do with Browder's conversation with catz and if that is the case, way to listen and spring into action guys. A+
Also, all of my vetos got taken out. If there's no close spawns, I might only veto the two new ones :D
While I really wish they would include one more high quality tournament map (Daybreak, Crevasse, BelShir, etc), I am very pleased this morning. Thumbs down XNC and Abyssal -- lots of great maps left (without close spawns even!)....Nice work Blizz.
On October 26 2011 02:32 KawaiiRice wrote: good job blizzard it only took you some failed matches at your own event to remove close spawn almost 2 years late
Haha! It would be so funny if that would be the reason for the change.
I was so happy to find out that Metal had returned and the terrible maps had left when I read this thread earlier today. Now I come back to find out that close spawns are disabled, and I'm positively ecstatic.
The game's balanced for 3-player maps! Go Blizzard!
First they argue for 1,5 years about how they care about the silent 90% (as they have payed equally as much for the game as pretty much everyone), and how some of them like short rush distances. Then out of the blue they just do this and remove all short rush distance maps/positions. And on top of that blizzard continues their trend on not announcing anywhere on the game client what maps have limited spawn possibilites. And it STILL gets worse. Not only that but now the map pool has maps which used to have every spawn comp possible, but now they dont. This will take the casual community figurative years to figure out.
Also, when I get a new map pool, I god damn want new maps.
Would love them if they added daybreak and dual sight. Both are difficult technical map, and prob zerg favored unless your high master+ and have lots of prac on them, but they are possible to veto for lower level players, and they are just really really interesting maps.
On October 26 2011 02:51 Codeskye wrote: Did they say that they are using Metalopolis map that disabled close spawn?
Well I just played a 1v1 ladder game in Metalopolis and it was close spawn positions -__-
Not close spawns but close by ground, I'm guessing you played a game of close by air? If you really played on close by ground blizzard messed up once again.
I'm happy that they are putting in tourny maps [even more so without close spawns!] but I'm not thrilled about metaopolis. If we cant phase out popular maps like metaopolis SUCCESSFULLY from tourny/ladder play, then we risk having a stagnant map pool forever, basically. Like warcraft3.
On October 26 2011 02:44 Sea_Food wrote: What have you done blizzard...
First they argue for 1,5 years about how they care about the silent 90% (as they have payed equally as much for the game as pretty much everyone), and how some of them like short rush distances. Then out of the blue they just do this and remove all short rush distance maps/positions. And on top of that blizzard continues their trend on not announcing anywhere on the game client what maps have limited spawn possibilites. And it STILL gets worse. Not only that but now the map pool has maps which used to have every spawn comp possible, but now they dont. This will take the casual community figurative years to figure out.
Also, when I get a new map pool, I god damn want new maps.
I feel really sad...
Sorry but it seems that 98% of the community is happy (and that includes casual players, including myself) so you'll have to start figurinng out different ways to play
Wow, I was having a rough day but Blizzard really made me happy. At first I thought this was a troll thread, but to someone whos playing competitively this means so much. Thank you for listening Blizzard!
On October 26 2011 02:44 Sea_Food wrote: What have you done blizzard...
First they argue for 1,5 years about how they care about the silent 90% (as they have payed equally as much for the game as pretty much everyone), and how some of them like short rush distances. Then out of the blue they just do this and remove all short rush distance maps/positions. And on top of that blizzard continues their trend on not announcing anywhere on the game client what maps have limited spawn possibilites. And it STILL gets worse. Not only that but now the map pool has maps which used to have every spawn comp possible, but now they dont. This will take the casual community figurative years to figure out.
Also, when I get a new map pool, I god damn want new maps.
I feel really sad...
I'd say more than 10% of the community are happy with these changes.
Most of your "silent 90%" that bought the game when it came out, have already moved on to newer shinier games and won't come back until HotS.
On October 26 2011 02:51 Codeskye wrote: Did they say that they are using Metalopolis map that disabled close spawn?
Well I just played a 1v1 ladder game in Metalopolis and it was close spawn positions -__-
Not close spawns but close by ground, I'm guessing you played a game of close by air? If you really played on close by ground blizzard messed up once again.
Ah ok that makes sense, it was close by air.
There's another big problem though: There are no supply depot at the bottom of the ramp unlike the other maps.
Oh god yes ive been losing games left and right because of the balance issues with the chokes in the maps and as well as that close spawns just was downright unfair for zerg players I think out of the like 40 games ive played this season on close spawns I got terran for 38 of them and only won 2 of them. It just makes sure you can never ever get the macro to compete on 2 base since the third is so far and thats if they dont just 2 rax and win since they can get to your base so easy.
Anyway im so happy they did this and im going to really enjoy this map pool
Good move blizz. I just think its six months late. This should have been the map pool a half year ago and we should have some nice shiny maps like daybreak and dual sight in the pool now.
I guess I'm the only one that doesnt like playing the same maps over and over and over. Making the map pool smaller and bringing back a map that's been in use since beta are horrible changes.
On October 26 2011 03:08 MaTRiX[SiN] wrote: I guess I'm the only one that doesnt like playing the same maps over and over and over. Making the map pool smaller and bringing back a map that's been in use since beta are horrible changes.
we just rather play old good maps then new shitty maps.
New AND good maps would be an overkill for Blizzard ...
Edit: for the players who would rather like new maps than "playing the same maps over & over again" F**k U, U had 3seasons of them & there are less of u than players who would rather see good, ballanced maps. Stop whineing.
ohhh my god, i guess its time to start playing this game again. Finally no more terrible maps (well, still not really liking xel naga, nerazim crypt, and metal but w/e, thats why we have vetoes)
On October 26 2011 02:01 happyness wrote: Woo! No more close positions!!
Only thing that's bad is abyssal caverns, but meh, still the right direction!
^Bel shir and dual sight are not good maps though......
Yea, I always wonder why people cite these two maps as good maps. My former complaints about Blizz maps are often related to the difficulty of taking a safe third. Both Bel shir and Dual Sight produce a lot of games where one opponent (toss) is somewhat forced to two base because of the awkward third.
Love that they changed it so rapidly after receiving so much feedback in such a short period of time! Now we've got an okey map pool and can only start waiting for all maps to become high standard, at least we don't really have the really low standard maps anymore! And as a couple other guys have been saying, we have 3 vetos to remove the ones we don't really like like XC and metal if you didn't like that one in the first place.
On October 26 2011 03:23 0neder wrote: Umm, how about NEW or GSL maps added to ladder? BelShir anyone? Daybreak anyone?
daybreak should definitely be considered... such an amazing map.
I'm kinda dissapointed that they didn't switched Xel'Naga Caverns for Daybreak this time. It's overplayed and kinda imbalanced in most matchups in the current metagame. And Daybreak is an easy map for the lower level players to play so it wouldn't be any bigger loss imo.
Would have greatly preferred leaving either typhon or backwater over re-adding zergopolis to the pool, and getting rid of XNC in favour of something like daybreak. Oh well, overall I'm happy, especially with no close position on Shattered Temple. n_n
I would like to see XNC and Metal replaced in the near future with other tournament maps such as Daybreak, but this is a massive step in the right direction. Thanks, Blizzard!
I'm so sick of hearing about how they dont listen to community. They do, but they're not some nimble little startup like riot, theyre a huge ponderous corporation and it takes them a while to act on what they hear.
Best ladder pool in my opinion. Due to removal of close positions on metalopolis and shattered temple. Hopefully it will force less rush games. I also like they removed typhons peaks, because playing against zerg on cross positions can get very difficult -> relatively easy to defend 4bases.
WHAT NO CLOSE SPAWNS? This just made me jump like none other. Blizzard Thank fucking god and to add metolopolis back is nice and with no close positions to worry about anymore thank you :D
i am SO happy with this, now i can play on a full set of maps that i like instead of having a couple i have to deal with because i don't have enough vetoes
I swear it was kenngits interview! Woooooo, Non close positions Temple reminds me of python so much, I love playing on that. There must be an option to vote yes again
On October 26 2011 03:29 stormfoxSC wrote: Would have greatly preferred leaving either typhon or backwater over re-adding zergopolis to the pool, and getting rid of XNC in favour of something like daybreak. Oh well, overall I'm happy, especially with no close position on Shattered Temple. n_n
Oh please. Any balanced map becomes a zerg map because there isn't copious amounts of retarded, abusable terrain or an urgency to employ tactics that don't include a ridiculous all-in or turtling to 200 pop. Meta isn't perfect, and it's certainly old as fuck, but it's greater than or equal to any map we have in there right now.
Daybreak or any of the other maps would be awesome, but at least there's a straight forward, mid-sized map in the pool again, instead of all these bad destructible rocks and silly golds.
Did blizzard just own face on the new maps? HELL YES THEY DID! great job bliz, you restored my faith that you actually listen to the community.
I really do hope in the future they move to a more tournament friendly map pool, everyone wants to pretend to be gosu and playing on the GSL maps will help us all feel a little better
Huzzah! Now I get to lose 80% of my games over the next 2-3 months against Zergs. Thanks for putting maps back in that were proven unbalanced in the past. Stay classy Blizz!
I still dont get why they didn't chenge the maps for the invitational...but i'm not a whiner so GOOD JOB Blizzard. More GSL maps in the future would be awesome
woo, as a a zerg this is the greatest news iv heard literally ever since release. Nothing has personally made me so happy to read. Maps are always my #1 gripe and this pretty much fixes it
My god, this is the best map pool blizzard ladder has ever had! I really like the idea of having 6 tournament style maps and 2 newer/experimental/blizzardish maps in the pool too for variety
On October 26 2011 03:51 aksfjh wrote: Huzzah! Now I get to lose 80% of my games over the next 2-3 months against Zergs. Thanks for putting maps back in that were proven unbalanced in the past. Stay classy Blizz!
You are the 2%! This maps are very balanced imo, the 2 GSL Z favored maps aren't in the pool.
What's the difference between a "tournament" map and a "non-tournament" map? is it just "used in tournaments" vs "not used in tournaments," or something more fundamental?
Well, finally Blizzard listened. Actually what is most interesting now is the possibility of pushing user maps on to the ladder. Did anybody else see the interview with Dustin Browder on Reddit? There were some great questions asked..
On October 26 2011 03:56 SlimeBagly wrote: What's the difference between a "tournament" map and a "non-tournament" map? is it just "used in tournaments" vs "not used in tournaments," or something more fundamental?
On October 26 2011 03:51 aksfjh wrote: Huzzah! Now I get to lose 80% of my games over the next 2-3 months against Zergs. Thanks for putting maps back in that were proven unbalanced in the past. Stay classy Blizz!
You are the 2%! This maps are very balanced imo, the 2 GSL Z favored maps aren't in the pool.
Because you and I are TOTALLY GSL level players. But you're right, I'm not looking at the bright side. I'll still be able to win 20% of those games...
I don't really understand the logic behind adding metal back in while also removing close pos. 60% imbalance wasn't enough?
In general, I like removing the close positions, but putting a heavily imbalanced map back in the pool(which was horribly boring to boot, with the xel naga towers in the middle + limited ground) is just stupid.
just veto metal if you don't like it, I have so many free vetoes now im not even using one, which is itself a bit of a sign that Blizzard is doing something right.
I'm glad they this, but this should be standard for Blizz if they want to support the competitive community. There should be no close spawn positions similar to shattered/metal on any 4 player map. And just because they got rid of the crap maps, doesn't make this map-pool the greatest.
Yeah it's nice, but would love to see more variety in here as well. (day break, terminus, crevasse, testbug, etc)
On October 26 2011 04:06 Zarahtra wrote: I don't really understand the logic behind adding metal back in while also removing close pos. 60% imbalance wasn't enough?
In general, I like removing the close positions, but putting a heavily imbalanced map back in the pool(which was horribly boring to boot, with the xel naga towers in the middle + limited ground) is just stupid.
On October 26 2011 04:06 Zarahtra wrote: I don't really understand the logic behind adding metal back in while also removing close pos. 60% imbalance wasn't enough?
wait wait wait, so i don't have to roach/ling allin everytime i get shattered close because shattered close doesn't exist anymore??? awwwwwwwwwwww yeahhh.
thank fucking finally they removed close spawns. they still have a long way to go but this is the best first step!!
i know im very much in the minority but i dont like this map pool. why is everybody so anal about perfect balance? i always like it when they put in new maps with new tile sets to keep it fresh. i just dont see myself having fun playing on metalopolis and xelnaga for the 6 millionth time. im only diamond but most of the time i lose because i played bad not because the map was imbalanced. so new season- new maps, i would like that. but i guess everybody on this forum is in grandmaster league and an aspiring professional gamer, so everybody "WOLLT IHR DIE TOTALE BALANCE?" :p
Wow, all of my vetos were removed! Great changes in my opinion. I would however like to see some of the more popular GSL and ICCup maps added to the pool.
On October 26 2011 04:11 herberckl wrote: i know im very much in the minority but i dont like this map pool. why is everybody so anal about perfect balance? i always like it when they put in new maps with new tile sets to keep it fresh. i just dont see myself having fun playing on metalopolis and xelnaga for the 6 millionth time. im only diamond but most of the time i lose because i played bad not because the map was imbalanced. so new season- new maps, i would like that. but i guess everybody on this forum is in grandmaster league and an aspiring professional gamer, so everybody "WOLLT IHR DIE TOTALE BALANCE?" :p
catastrophic quote...
@your point: I want to play balanced maps, yes - does it effect me 100% of the times, ofc not, I'm way to bad at sc2, but it's nice they finally see the problem and maybe in the future we will see new AND balanced maps. For now I'm more than happy with the mappool
i was trying to highlight that there is quite a bit of peer pressure and that everybody has to obey to the fashist reign of balance lol. sorry about the quote though.
What is more important then the map poll is that blizzard is doing what is best for esports in this case. Something is telling me Dustin Browder has woken up to just how big sc2 esports is and that they got to do all they can to support it. Since this was a last minute change it really feels like this was the first thing he told the guys to do as they returned to their office after blizzcon.
I got a strong feeling blizzard will start supporting esports in a much more active roll from now on, tournament lan support, watching replays with friends etc just got put into focus over at blizz hq (yes I know I am being a little bit to optimistic
I really wonder if this is somehow related to the TL interview with Dustin Browder. He seemed very thoughtful after the map question... or he just didn't want to announce those changes too early :p
Liking the changes, disabling close spawns is so great.
1) Make long spiel about why Metalopolis was imbalanced toward Zerg so you can remove it.
2) Reintroduce it and disable close spawns, making it more imbalanced toward Zerg
3) Profit.
I don't want to whine too hard about it since I do have a spare veto for it, but if they removed it because it's imbalanced, then why add it back? Why not introduce another 2 player map (Dual Sight) or do something new like one of the 3 player maps that are in the tournament pools?
On October 26 2011 04:37 Dingbat911 wrote: I would have been really happy if they had chosen to include Belshir Beach and Daybreak.
All balance aside Belshir Beach reminds me of Nagrand from WoW. It's just such a bright happy map and I bet it would be my favorite if they included it on the ladder for that very reason. I'm not a fan of the poo poo colored Typhon Peaks.
On October 26 2011 04:31 ArcticFox wrote: 1) Make long spiel about why Metalopolis was imbalanced toward Zerg so you can remove it.
2) Reintroduce it and disable close spawns, making it more imbalanced toward Zerg
3) Profit.
I don't want to whine too hard about it since I do have a spare veto for it, but if they removed it because it's imbalanced, then why add it back? Why not introduce another 2 player map (Dual Sight) or do something new like one of the 3 player maps that are in the tournament pools?
They took it out because the close spawns were the imbalanced problem, besides that as you can see (from the many posts on this thread) it's a player favourite and with the close by ground spawns disabled its alot more balanced therefore pleasing everyone.
Another reason it's been put back in (with close spawns removed) is because progamers were complaining about the lack of potential training when laddering as alot of Blizzard's maps aren't used in tournaments (except Blizzcon), however Metalopolis is so when programers ladder they get more experience playing on the map as opposed to having to make custom games with the same people over and over, gives them a chance to play different people and i guess to potentially pick up tips and tricks etc or become aware of any shenanigans.
I love Metalopolis, good map and can now hopefully have some decent macro games, best work on my Warp Prism play :D
The map change doesn't really effect me much, the maps they are getting rid of I already had down voted. I guess its good that we got metal back though.
DON'T FORGET TO POST ON BNET TO THANK THEM. Just as we complained to get what we wanted, we must also thank them so they know they made the right choice (if us TLers don't post there, and suddenly all these haters complain about the "tournament" maps, then... yea)
FUCK YES! im so glad that they took out Typhon and Searing Crater. I haed thos maps with a passion. didnt really mind backwater gulch too much but it was kind of annoying. now I can vote out narazim, abyssal caverns, and antiga ship yard! those are the maps i dislike the most now.
Maybe I'm just bad and don't get it, but I don't understand why people are going crazy over Metalopolis I personally don't like the map at all, I've never had a game on it that's lasted longer then 2 bases (IE the fun long macro games of back and forth action. Everyone seems to 1 base all-in). But it is good that they removed the 3 maps I vetoed so I can re-veto Metalopolis. If someone could explain what is so amazing about this map (I play protoss) it would be quite appreciated.
Blizzard you are the greatest video game company on earth, at least until your next dumb decision, then I don't like you, and then after you do something awesome, I will love you again. Ah Blizzard, what an emotional roller-coaster ride you take me on.
On October 26 2011 05:08 LayZRR wrote: WTF i want my backwater back? Backwater was not bad at all!
Did you play terran? Because in my experience, backwater PvZ in close positions was pretty lol. 2 forcefields and everything gets shut down. PvT on the other hand was open to a whole slew of somewhat abusive lowground tank pushes.
On October 26 2011 05:16 ExorArgus wrote: Maybe I'm just bad and don't get it, but I don't understand why people are going crazy over Metalopolis I personally don't like the map at all, I've never had a game on it that's lasted longer then 2 bases (IE the fun long macro games of back and forth action. Everyone seems to 1 base all-in). But it is good that they removed the 3 maps I vetoed so I can re-veto Metalopolis. If someone could explain what is so amazing about this map (I play protoss) it would be quite appreciated.
Metalopolis is fine when you're not on close-positions. The natural is a bit open, but you can still defend the main attack routes towards it. It has good terrain and fairly closed paths.
Overall I think it's a good move, but I don't like that they added Xel'Naga back and at the same time still kept some of the shittier maps like Nerazim and Abyssal. It seems quite lazy to not create new maps. And if they are going to go the "tourney route" then why not actually add popular tourney maps like Dual Sight instead of re-adding a map like Xel'Naga that no tournament uses any more?
Blizzard gets it! Soo happy to see these changes in the 1v1 map pool. They really had me worried when they said the map pool would remain the same as season 3. GJ Blizzard, my hat goes off to you!
Only problem I see is the lack of 2 player maps.. in the beginning there were lots of them, and now there is only 1 left(Xel Naga Caverns). Feels like this is due to Blizzard realising the flaws in their game design, making it too easy to proxy rax/bunker rush/proxy gate on such maps, or that it is a necessity for a zerg to take a fast exp without getting blocked etc. (although I don't think most will concider this a big problem). It's fun with variety and not only 4 player maps. Heck, throw in a 3 player map for good mesure. There are several examples of 2 player maps being used compeditively such as Crossfire, Bel Shir Beach, Dual Sight etc. It opens up possabilities for more specific builds to appear awsell.
Definitely a more solid map pool than last season. I wish they had replaced xelnaga caverns with dualsight though, it has sort of the same style/feel but with nicer graphics and a bit better balance. I also like the way the gold functions on dualsight a lot better, less patches and all the way off to the side rather than essentially controlling the center.
Certainly a step in the right direction. At least they're acknowledging that the ladder should have more tournament maps. I hope they start including some GSL/ICCUP ones like Daybreak in the future, and slowly phase out maps like Xel'Naga. It's been too long since Tal'Darim was introduced to the ladder pool.
I didn't even realize that they had removed close pos. That is truely a step forward, my view on close position was it sucked, forced both players of any race to play cheesy and it just wasn't good.
On October 26 2011 05:51 Tomasy wrote: Great news. I like all changes but I would like Blizzard to add some good 2 players maps from GSL , Daybreak and bel'shir beach are my favourite.
Yeah, the only thing I could have asked for that Blizzard didn't include was Belshir. But I'm not about to complain
I am fine with what they removed, they were bad maps. (especially searing crater wtf) But I wish they add some new interesting ones. I hate metal and will veto it now along with nerazim and abyssal, so that means 5 maps to play one? How boring. Close spawns were dumb as shit for sure, as Terran I felt practically obligated to allin on them, because else you just get allinned yourself anyways.
P.S. (non close spawn metal is pretty imba imo, not unwinnable but HUGE advantage for zerg)
Edit: GSL maps would be great, but not BelShir, Crevasse, or XelNaga Fortress. Those aren't that good at all.
I had Searing Crater, Typhon Peaks and Tal’darim Altar vetoed during season 3. Will probably keep Tal’darim Altar vetoed next season. It requires too different play style compared to the rest of the maps.
I'd love to have the GSL Dual Sight map as well. It is always fun to play on the same maps as the pros. Easier to steal builds that way.
On October 25 2011 23:17 GiggleFairy wrote: My trust in you TL was not misplaced!! I just did my placement, zvz on shattered. Scouted with my overlord that he wasn't close air so I said to myself, 'well, if TL says close positions are off....' and proceeded to fast expand. And success!! Won it ez Really good changes!
But alas i was playing on SEA earlier today and these changes were not implemented. And i just checked again just then and the old map pool is still in place. Very strange why they would change NA and probably other servers, but not SEA. We shall see i guess.
Because SEA server is cheese central. Majority of players prolly like close positions more and prolly want maps like Steps of War in there.
I noticed this immediately today. I love the change, now I only have to veto Antiga (zerg favored), and XNC(boring-old). I also love seeing metal back. I played my placement match on it and won. I used to think Metal was imbalanced but now I think it would be perfect if they got rid of close spawns. Same with Shattered.
It's such a good step! Maybe even with this thy could do tournaments over battle net since everyone is playing these. And I know people want new gsl maps but they are just starting this process with these maps so if we just support it well get what we want. Also vetos now make sense cause you can veto cause it's bad for your race not cause the map just sucks!
Thank you Blizz, thank you! I will not veto any maps, I love them all. Even as a Zerg I never minded the close spawns on Metal because I had a special two-base all-in build for it, but I'm happy to see it back in the map pool no matter what.
I would also like to throw my support behind adding Daybreak as well.
Wow interesting to see a complete reversal of their ladder map philosophy. If they planned this why in the he'll wouldn't they use this pool for their tournament Mind boggling.
I like these changes to the map pool. I've veto'd the non-tournament maps and XNC as a Zerg, and I was tossing up wether or not I should use my 3rd veto(Nerazim crypts doesn't bother me.)
Searing and Typhon were awful, I'm glad they're out. I don't like Metalopolis, but the fact that they're finally disabling close spawns on Metal and Shattered is awesome.
I hated playing TvZ close spawns on those maps. I'd either get all-inned in the first 10 minutes, or win a very very easy macro game.
This is great but it's kind of sad it took this long to get those close spawns disabled. Like seriously, it feels completely unfair to be a Zerg on those positions...
holy shit... am i reading what i think im reading.... i think im about to be filled with tears... i couldn't be more happy right now, The maps and the close spawn thing was driving me to the brink of insanity and to see that blizzard removed it has made me the happiest little elf in the world. dear blizzy poo thanks so much for listening to the community i wuv u.
holy fuckstick it's about time. it took them a year, but someone finally opened TL and looked at the thousands of map complaints and heavily favored polls to change the maps and close spawns. More tournament maps and i'll build a shrine for you.
I still don't understand how the fact that Metalopolis is heavily imbalanced in favour of Zerg stopped being a problem out of the clear sky.
Let's look at the map pool from a Protoss poiont of view. At least Metal and Shattered are Z favoured to say the least. XNC is almost absurd to play PvT on. My experience with Abyssal and Nerazim is limited but Nerazim is extremely open in the middle as well. Taldarim (in LE version, with rocks at 3rd) is generaly OK, but it is terrible for PvP. So that leaves me with two maps I actually do like, that is Shakuras and Antiga.
Given that both Nerazim and Abyssal are called "non-tournament", I wonder how would any tournament using the remaing six as the map pool convicne any sane protoss to take part in it.
Pretty sweet i didn't know about close spawns being disabled. Blizzard gets two big thumbs up from me for actually listening to the community and to progamers.
On October 26 2011 08:02 Misanthrope wrote: I actually enjoyed Typhon Peaks, then again I'm Zerg...
Yay Metal is back w/ no close spawn! <3
I think zerg enjoyed Typhon the least given all the small chokes and that path between vertical positions.
I love Blizzard so much for this. I was extremely excited before I even knew that close positions were disabled as they removed my previous 3 vetos, but now that I know close spawns was removed. <3 Blizzard!!!!!!!
This map pool is much better. The worst map I have to play now is Caverns, so can't really complain. No close spawns on temple and metal is awesome! ♥ Blizzard
It'll be very interesting to compare how my matchup %s change in season 4 over season 3 and 2. In the last two seasons there was so much zvz (for me; imo) because most zergs veto the same maps. Now that our choices are closer to preferences instead of "oh god is that map hard for me" I think I might just have a season where I don't play 60%+ zvz!
I am SOOOOO happy that they decided to do this. We have been asking for them to take out close spawns in Metalopolis/Shattered Temple for ages and they finally listened!! I am amazed that Blizzard not only removed the 3 worst maps in the pool IMO, but took away close spawns AND put Metalopolis back in!
I'm happy, I will definitely play this season. I quit midway through season 3 from frustration, but I think with 1/1/1 not quite as insane and a map pool where I'll probably only veto 1 map and with close spawns disabled this will be worth playing. I'm glad they finally fixed close positions thank god.
On October 26 2011 08:54 Probe1 wrote: It'll be very interesting to compare how my matchup %s change in season 4 over season 3 and 2. In the last two seasons there was so much zvz (for me; imo) because most zergs veto the same maps. Now that our choices are closer to preferences instead of "oh god is that map hard for me" I think I might just have a season where I don't play 60%+ zvz!
HOLY. SHIT. Such a simple observation, yet so meaningful. How did I not realize this... The very reason I haven't played since ... season 2ish ... is that I hate playing ZvZ. Thing is, I didn't always hate it! I grew to hate it as my ZvZ ladder % grew closer and closer to 100% (it never quite got to 100%, but it seemed nearby). It makes sense that the like-minded Zergy individuals thinking "nah this map sux cock for Zerg" would veto the same shitty maps and play each other at a higher rate (think smaller sand box, more collisions).
OMG, Blizzard listened directly to the community, XNC still a shitty map, however since its still used in many tournaments, their decision to keep is logical
On October 26 2011 09:06 HotSoup470 wrote: OMG, Blizzard listened directly to the community, XNC still a shitty map, however since its still used in many tournaments, their decision to keep is logical
It's only used in tournaments BECAUSE it's in the ladder map pool. Removing it would be splendid.
On October 26 2011 09:06 HotSoup470 wrote: OMG, Blizzard listened directly to the community, XNC still a shitty map, however since its still used in many tournaments, their decision to keep is logical
It's only used in tournaments BECAUSE it's in the ladder map pool. Removing it would be splendid.
yeah I guess you're right , glad they removed that crap from GSL long time ago
On October 26 2011 09:06 HotSoup470 wrote: OMG, Blizzard listened directly to the community, XNC still a shitty map, however since its still used in many tournaments, their decision to keep is logical
It's only used in tournaments BECAUSE it's in the ladder map pool. Removing it would be splendid.
I would say that's untrue. It was picked up by tournaments at the inception of SC2 and has been kept since because it is agreed that it is one of the more "balanced" maps. At least to me this is seemingly true.
On October 26 2011 09:04 Erasme wrote: NO WAY why did they keep xelnaga cavern ? such an horrible map they need to remove the fucking gold minerals -_-
Don't know why you think that, but according to all professional Korean mapmakers, Xelnaga Caverns is the most balance Blizzard made map.
I don't understand why they put metalopolis back in the map pool when it was proven by blizzard itself to be GROSSLY favored towards zerg AND they removed close spawns which I'm sure was the reason for the majority of zerg losses there.
Easy veto for me, I'm a bit confused by blizzard's decision
edit: Old maps definitly had to go, and I'm glad blizzard is thinking of adding more tourney maps... good approach
I wonder if this was at all influenced by Kennigit's interview with Dustin Browder. He did seem legitimately concerned about the map pool situation in their discussion. Anyway, thank you for finally getting your shit together Blizzard.
On October 25 2011 22:07 ToguRo wrote: Six of the eight total maps in the Season 4 1v1 map pool will be maps that have been used in tournaments around the world. In addition, Shattered Temple and Metalopolis will be returning to the map pool, with close spawn positions disabled.
Does this mean that there'll be neutral lowered supply depots at the bottom of the ramp like in MLG? That would be a cool feature to have.
Should've taken Nerazim Crypt out and kept Backwater gulch with only cross positions enabled. It's a decent map in my experience and i've had quite a few good games on there. I suppose that's my only real complaint. Abyssal Caverns should be renamed Abysmal Caverns and Nerazim Crypt is awful but I can veto those. The rest of the pool is sweet.
Hopefully the lack of close spawns will somewhat deter the disgusting amount of all ins I have to endure on ladder, (though, close spawns or not, some people are just devoted to their cheese).
this is a great decision by blizzard, but i hope they make the changes for the SEA server aswell, those changed were not in effect when the season unlocked in SEA
This only make sense. If they want pro players to use the ladder, they have to make it similar to what the pro players play on. It is about time. I am not against them adding in special maps and new maps at all, but they have to be tournament level maps.
Certainly wasn't up on SEA last night as i played my placement match for season 4 on Typhon and a couple of other games there as well but having a look now it's updated and now i can veto Nera, Abysmal and Xelnaga, although Xel isn't that bad but would prefer others.
Really glad to see Blizz listen to the community and who knows season 5 might have some of the GSL maps as well.
On October 26 2011 08:02 Misanthrope wrote: I actually enjoyed Typhon Peaks, then again I'm Zerg...
Yay Metal is back w/ no close spawn! <3
I think zerg enjoyed Typhon the least given all the small chokes and that path between vertical positions.
I love Blizzard so much for this. I was extremely excited before I even knew that close positions were disabled as they removed my previous 3 vetos, but now that I know close spawns was removed. <3 Blizzard!!!!!!!
I enjoyed the fast and easy third. Once you get past the open nat it's fine. Terrans going mech pushing through the rock-protected hallway was difficult to deal with, but that was the only playstyle I had much trouble against on that map. Muta counters vs Protoss made me squeal with joy.
On October 26 2011 09:23 darkness wrote: (Wiki2)Abyssal Caverns (non-tournament) (Wiki2)Antiga Shipyard (Wiki2)Nerazim Crypt (non-tournament)
Don't those need close position disabled as well?
Well, the rush distance on those are still relatively close, but I think it's fine since the rush distances are actually much longer than Metal/Shattered, especially Antiga. Abyssal has that low ground to help defender vs a rush attack on close positions (stand on top of the ramp, instead of at your natural, he will have to break the rocks instead). Nerazim is a bit close but the natural entrance is a bit closed off (though the nat area isn't that open as a zerg might like it). But one benefit Zergs have on this map regarding rushes/all-ins is that the mains are very small/narrow, making it very easy to scout what buildings he has. So you might still die to an scv all-in, but at least you should know what he's doing at the 7-9 minute mark (or whenever you scout/sacrifice an ovie or make a overseer or whatever). Antiga's close spawn rush distance is much farther than on any other 4 player blizzard map.
On October 26 2011 11:16 TheBlueMeaner wrote: Blizzard, you are like an abusive husband that beats us up, but then you buy us a diamond necklace and make everything alright
On October 25 2011 22:24 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: What's this? A map pool in which I may not have to use a single veto.
Is this real?
This so much <3
They took out all 3 of my veto's :D
Backwater was just horrible for protoss, couldnt wall properly and the FFE was weird, third was far away, i doubt any race liked that map...
Typhon has the imbalanced up/down spawns, giving an almost free-win to the 3-1-1 all in if you lotto'd those spawns vs terran.
Searing Crater had the massive wall in the natural that siege tanks could shoot over with banshee vision, and the area around that was weird, combined with the nonexistant rush distance another almost free-win to 3-1-1 all in.
Oh goddamnit... this would really motivate me to ladder more, but I just started a new job and can't play as much (because y'know before I wasn't playing at all lololol).
On October 26 2011 11:31 Ownos wrote: Oh goddamnit... this would really motivate me to ladder more, but I just started a new job and can't play as much (because y'know before I wasn't playing at all lololol).
I still don't like Antiga.
Antiga can be very annoying at times, close air or if they do that weird mech elevator onto your main it is hard to deal with, but cross positions its a great map.
The elevator... there is a small platform between your main and ground level...
3 heights of ground, he can put siege tanks on all 3... If you attack the bottom, you cant see the top 2, but if you attack from the top, you cant reach the bottom, and your zealots/lings cant hit the middle one.
Its hard to explain but i think its a weird situation that ive never actuly seen a zerg or protoss beat.
Trimaster does it on stream sometimes, or atleast he used to do
Holy shit! What do I have to downvote now? Really happy to see that they finally made their maps tourney modes.......... Funny how it happens right after blizcon (wtf?).
I am very happy with the new map pool. I do wish we had a few more choices, but you can't have everything. Hopefully the season 5 map pool will be even better.
This is good, probably still wont play metalopolis since cross position = getting destroyed by zergs.... I just got out of one on shattered X-position... man defending against muta is really difficult on that map and good luck attacking up the middle.
Well, that was unexpected. But I think the map pool now is really good (esp no close position on metal). But I'm actually not too surprised by this. When you hear what some of the pros were saying about the ladder pool, the way fans want to be able to use pro maps, plus the way Dustin Browder approaches game development, it seemed like only a matter of time before this type of tournament alignment would happen.
so they added 1 map and took out 3? thats kind of lame, if i didnt want to play those maps i could have just vetod them, i dont think many ppl would veto many (if any) of the maps currently in the new map pool.
Well I don't really like xel'naga caverns and now I can finally veto it. Best map pool update from blizzard yet. Hope they add in a couple new ones though. Maybe more GSL maps?
Oh shit didn't even notice this until they mentioned it on SOTG, Blizzard are doing themselves some real favours. Tournament inspired map pools are a great idea, long awaited.
WHY WOULD THEY ADD METAL?? don't get me wrong i loved that map, but the game is not balanced for it anymore. Even with far spawns, everyone knows that favors zerg heavily and close spawn favors terran heavily. I'm so very confused . People can argue that its one of the most iconic maps, but I for one am going to check it, xelnaga, and taldarim altar all off. I have no want to play on maps that are either PvP wasteland (taldarim) or not really balanced to begin with. I play Obs on that map all the time and its so hard for the protoss to take advantage of that map. Its so difficult to hold that natural expo. I just don't get it.
On October 26 2011 12:01 Executor1 wrote: so they added 1 map and took out 3? thats kind of lame, if i didnt want to play those maps i could have just vetod them, i dont think many ppl would veto many (if any) of the maps currently in the new map pool.
I'm still using 2 vetoes. Season 3 map pool was worse than season 1 IMO just b/c of the way the metagame has evolved.
This is the first time I have ever had a free veto, which means if I get tired of a map (Probably Antiga or Tal Darim) then I actually don't have to play it if I don't want to.
If the map pool is too big then it is simply too hard on the player to figure out what to do on every single map. It's like 8 maps now? IMO being physically required to play more than 5 would be just unfair, it's too much variation. All the power to the people who like variation, they don't have to veto anything as none of the maps are utterly god awful anymore. The problem was that if you didn't want to play on those maps you still had to, 3 vetoes wasn't anywhere near enough, esp with close position shattered.
On October 26 2011 14:41 docvoc wrote: WHY WOULD THEY ADD METAL?? don't get me wrong i loved that map, but the game is not balanced for it anymore. Even with far spawns, everyone knows that favors zerg heavily and close spawn favors terran heavily. I'm so very confused . People can argue that its one of the most iconic maps, but I for one am going to check it, xelnaga, and taldarim altar all off. I have no want to play on maps that are either PvP wasteland (taldarim) or not really balanced to begin with. I play Obs on that map all the time and its so hard for the protoss to take advantage of that map. Its so difficult to hold that natural expo. I just don't get it.
Notice how you are actually able to veto the maps you don't want to play. Say they added metal, didn't get rid of close positions and didn't remove other 3 maps? I'm assuming you didn't like ALL of the 4 new ones, so really you are screwed when it comes to choice. Everyone has different opinions and the veto let's people do what they prefer and still have an enjoyable experience.
Well I can say I veto'd the 3 maps I don't like (xelnaga/abyssal/nerazim or whatever). So happy with it all the maps I play now are maps I like which is so nice ^_^
Those 52 guys that voted NO should go to prison. We finally have a tournament like map pool :D Xel Nerazim and AC are still kinda bad imo but 3 veto are 3 veto and there is no close pos anymore.
On October 26 2011 15:38 OptimusYale wrote: You think after blizzcon they saw that close positions were infact impossible as Zerg?
Glad metal is back, one of my favorite maps....now all we need is bel'shir and Dual Sight and we have ourselves an awesome map pool <3
Good work Blizzard ^^
It's sad that they didn't do it before the tournament though. It's like they literally haven't watched other tournaments for the last year.
I would prefer Daybreak over Bel'Shir/Dual Sight, tbh.^^ BS/DS are great maps for Zerg, but not very balanced. Daybreak is just an awesome map overall.
On October 26 2011 15:38 OptimusYale wrote: You think after blizzcon they saw that close positions were infact impossible as Zerg?
Glad metal is back, one of my favorite maps....now all we need is bel'shir and Dual Sight and we have ourselves an awesome map pool <3
Good work Blizzard ^^
It's sad that they didn't do it before the tournament though. It's like they literally haven't watched other tournaments for the last year.
I would prefer Daybreak over Bel'Shir/Dual Sight, tbh.^^ BS/DS are great maps for Zerg, but not very balanced. Daybreak is just an awesome map overall.
Zerg all-ins are still pretty damn strong on close spawns. Regardless, the real killer with close pos is that no matter what happens, the game itself is gonna be boring.
And I agree, Daybreak is the best map ever made, would love to see it in the map pool
This is pretty great, except the current map pool really is too small (8 maps minus 3 vetos leaves only 5 maps). I think Blizzard also needs more 2 player maps like dual sight, but other than that this change is awesome.
I am amazed. I have never, ever seen such a high % on a poll. It just doesn't happen @_@. VERY good job by blizzard! (My previous rule of thumb had been that ~5% of the population were either impossible to please, and or were trolls. Looks like I'll have to revise this =)
I have been looking forward to this change, always hoped that Blizzard would put maps in that MLG GSL and the other big tournaments use such a good day
On October 25 2011 22:07 ToguRo wrote: From Blizzard
After reviewing player feedback, we’ve selected a 1v1 map pool composed of tournament-configured maps for the upcoming Season 4 of the StarCraft II ladder.
Six of the eight total maps in the Season 4 1v1 map pool will be maps that have been used in tournaments around the world. In addition, Shattered Temple and Metalopolis will be returning to the map pool, with close spawn positions disabled. Two non-tournament maps -- Abyssal
Caverns and Nerazim Crypt -- will also be included. Players can veto these two non-tournament maps and still have a single veto remaining for the remaining maps, just as a player would in a major tournament.
These maps will be removed:
(Wiki2)Backwater Gulch (Wiki2)Searing Crater (Wiki2)Typhon Peaks
Depending on the feedback we receive regarding this approach to the 1v1 ladder map pool, we may move further toward a tournament-configured map format in future ladder seasons.
Finally, Each Battle.Net account has been credited with a voucher good towards (1) Jetpack,
We look forward to hearing what you think, and we hope you all have a great Season 4!
it the most imbalanced map in tournaments (maps which are played currently), with a ~60% TvZ winrate. It's quite hard to defense your natural vs hellions, the 3rd is also hard to take. And if Terran takes the gold, it's very hard to counter him. It is not unwinable, but its harder for Z than for T.
I honestly wonder what the percent of ZvZ compared to the other match ups on Metalopolis will be on ladder. I play both Terran and Protoss and that's an instant veto for both those accounts.
It might be the only map I actually veto as either race. It's just not fun to play against Zerg on that map.
Searing Crater was a fucking absolutely terrible map. Dunno why they even tried to put that in the ladder map pool. Rofl, notice how they didn't add any NEW maps?
THEY ARE FINALLY LISTENING!!!! WE WON!! Sammich time
Can anyone confirm whether these changes have made it into the EU ladder? From this post it seems to suggest we won't get the same changes:
The transition between ladder seasons is generally a time when we take the opportunity to make adjustments to the ladder map pool. In Season 4, the 1v1 pool will remain unchanged...*snip*
This is the most amazing pool ever, however it feels a little small if you use all your vetos. Maybe putting in some maps from GSL or MLG would be awesome . like daybreak/xel naga fortress etc. However i doubt bliz would use those
This is truly a day of joy and happines!! i dont even have to use all my map downvotes anymore and everytime i spawn on metalopolis or shattered temple i have little smile on my face knowing that it will not be close positions :DD
gj blizzard.. I still wonder though, what took you so long ?_?
Though this is a step in the right direction I don't like that they put metal back in the pool. It's still a bad map and they had figured that out already. Tournaments had it in the pool because it was considered a standard map but this could have changed with it not being in the ladder pool anymore now it's going to last even longer when there are clearly better, more fun and more balanced maps out there.
YES! Metalopolis is back! I'm really content with the map pool now! The two maps that I'm not a big fan of is of course Nezarim and Abyssal. But I can always veto them
On October 27 2011 00:47 Bozaza wrote: Did anyone else notice that on tal darm the little cliff you can hop reapers down between your third and main is gone now?
Best change ever I hated searing crater, typhon peaks and backwater gulch... they were horrendous maps. Now there are less maps and they are (the most) balanced maps blizzard made... I would've still liked that Blizzard take maps from the gsl, like dual site and/or terminus re.
I didn't think I would veto any maps, but I ended up vetoing Abyssal, Nerazim, and Antiga. I didn't mind those three maps last season but after laddering, I just felt so good when I got Metal, Shattered, etc., but felt really "bleah" if I landed on one of those three. So, while not the worst maps ever, I had to veto them. Now when I ladder everything feels just right - I'm really enjoying this pool.
Typhon and backwater was okay. I always liked those maps =)
Never liked abyssal caverns though. no idea why blizzard decide to keep that. Do people like this map? cos the people i practise with often veto this map down.
but I'm very glad that metalopolis is back though.
On October 27 2011 20:36 Zarcaz wrote: why do they need to bring metalopolis back? arent there enough zerg maps =(
metal might be a zerg map of the past, but the metagame has shifted enough to warrant some more data, TvZ you can half-map if you really want to, and end up ahead due to tank denying their gold, but mid game and early game I do think that it favors zerg a bit much for my liking, overall though, I've had some good macro games on it, and my TvZ winrate as of season 4 has been 5-0 on that map I believe, mb 5-1, I went straight up thor hellion with just enough tanks to control the left and right ground paths. Turns into game of attrition, and thor hellion tank + some air/ghost support tends to be a good bit more efficient than anything zerg can throw at you.
On October 27 2011 20:36 Zarcaz wrote: why do they need to bring metalopolis back? arent there enough zerg maps =(
something being a "zerg map" just means it isnt a "terran map" or a "protoss map." Metal was considered a Z map because it was the only map where there weren't as many abusive T and P strats. The term"zerg map" and "balanced map" mean the same thing.
On October 27 2011 20:36 Zarcaz wrote: why do they need to bring metalopolis back? arent there enough zerg maps =(
something being a "zerg map" just means it isnt a "terran map" or a "protoss map." Metal was considered a Z map because it was the only map where there weren't as many abusive T and P strats. The term"zerg map" and "balanced map" mean the same thing.
The reason its a "zerg" map is because the moment you leave your base on one side you get overrun by counterattacking lings on the other so you are forced to just sit in your base once you get beyond 2 base play.
Edit: Also Bel shir is considered a "zerg" map and it is far from a balanced map.
On October 27 2011 20:36 Zarcaz wrote: why do they need to bring metalopolis back? arent there enough zerg maps =(
something being a "zerg map" just means it isnt a "terran map" or a "protoss map." Metal was considered a Z map because it was the only map where there weren't as many abusive T and P strats. The term"zerg map" and "balanced map" mean the same thing.
The reason its a "zerg" map is because the moment you leave your base on one side you get overrun by counterattacking lings on the other so you are forced to just sit in your base once you get beyond 2 base play.
Edit: Also Bel shir is considered a "zerg" map and it is far from a balanced map.
Wait, so you consider Metal to be a Zerg map because it allows for counterattacks? I'm sorry but that basically describes every map. Not to mention, if you don't feel safe moving out then that's your problem, not map design, there is plenty of harassment options available to every race in that situation.
I'm pretty sure the only reason Metal is considered a "zerg map" is because Blizzard said Zerg statistically have a slightly higher winrate on that map, nobody really ever complained about it being too in favor of Zerg till that statement was made.
On October 27 2011 20:36 Zarcaz wrote: why do they need to bring metalopolis back? arent there enough zerg maps =(
something being a "zerg map" just means it isnt a "terran map" or a "protoss map." Metal was considered a Z map because it was the only map where there weren't as many abusive T and P strats. The term"zerg map" and "balanced map" mean the same thing.
The reason its a "zerg" map is because the moment you leave your base on one side you get overrun by counterattacking lings on the other so you are forced to just sit in your base once you get beyond 2 base play.
Edit: Also Bel shir is considered a "zerg" map and it is far from a balanced map.
Wait, so you consider Metal to be a Zerg map because it allows for counterattacks? I'm sorry but that basically describes every map. Not to mention, if you don't feel safe moving out then that's your problem, not map design, there is plenty of harassment options available to every race in that situation.
I'm pretty sure the only reason Metal is considered a "zerg map" is because Blizzard said Zerg statistically have a slightly higher winrate on that map, nobody really ever complained about it being too in favor of Zerg till that statement was made.
The difference is on Metal it is very hard to be able to stop counter attacks. Once you get your third you have to worry about 1 massive ramp and 1 absolutely gigantic area between 1st base and 3rd for your natural "choke." It is a Zerg map because Zerg can exploit these features far more than either Terran or Protoss.
On Xel'Naga (Any map really) you can do things like wall off the backdoor vs lings and you can constrict movement with building placement a lot better as well, yet it is probably IMO a more open map than Metal.
On October 27 2011 20:36 Zarcaz wrote: why do they need to bring metalopolis back? arent there enough zerg maps =(
something being a "zerg map" just means it isnt a "terran map" or a "protoss map." Metal was considered a Z map because it was the only map where there weren't as many abusive T and P strats. The term"zerg map" and "balanced map" mean the same thing.
The reason its a "zerg" map is because the moment you leave your base on one side you get overrun by counterattacking lings on the other so you are forced to just sit in your base once you get beyond 2 base play.
Edit: Also Bel shir is considered a "zerg" map and it is far from a balanced map.
Wait, so you consider Metal to be a Zerg map because it allows for counterattacks? I'm sorry but that basically describes every map. Not to mention, if you don't feel safe moving out then that's your problem, not map design, there is plenty of harassment options available to every race in that situation.
I'm pretty sure the only reason Metal is considered a "zerg map" is because Blizzard said Zerg statistically have a slightly higher winrate on that map, nobody really ever complained about it being too in favor of Zerg till that statement was made.
The difference is on Metal it is very hard to be able to stop counter attacks. Once you get your third you have to worry about 1 massive ramp and 1 absolutely gigantic area between 1st base and 3rd for your natural "choke." It is a Zerg map because Zerg can exploit these features far more than either Terran or Protoss.
On Xel'Naga (Any map really) you can do things like wall off the backdoor vs lings and you can constrict movement with building placement a lot better as well, yet it is probably IMO a more open map than Metal.
Even though I would have loved to see something like dualside or daybreak, I´m totally happy with the ladderpool I totally loved Meta and never understood why they removed it, and I´d allways vetoed Shattered Temple because it sucks on close ground, and I´m so happy to play it on Ladder again
Thank you for finally removing close spawn positions. According to the poll thats clearly what everyone wanted. Glad they are listening to the community <3
On October 27 2011 20:36 Zarcaz wrote: why do they need to bring metalopolis back? arent there enough zerg maps =(
something being a "zerg map" just means it isnt a "terran map" or a "protoss map." Metal was considered a Z map because it was the only map where there weren't as many abusive T and P strats. The term"zerg map" and "balanced map" mean the same thing.
The reason it's a zerg map, is because Blizzard released strats of a 60 - 70% Z winrate on it, regardless of positions. It's nothing to do with strategy opinions.
its funny how the majority of people, scratch that an overwhelming majority (really, you can't get 98% of a population to agree on anything) aprove of this effort by blizzard. It just goes to show that after ten long years of blizzard games, they finally started to do the right thing.
Listen to the people paying to play. You would think it wouldn't be that big of a thing but as a former wow player, this is the first time they seem to have done that.
With all the retarded cheese and close positions on Metal before, it most certainly was not a Zerg map. Maybe if you get into the mid-late game without dying, which then you have to worry about tanks blowing up your gold aka not having a base there.
EPT
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