EPTOn October 24 2011 23:50 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
Imagine Swarm host/infestor/brood lord.... *shivers*
Imagine Swarm host/infestor/brood lord.... *shivers*
just make 30 battle hellions, some siege tanks and vikings, gg!
protoss is fucked though
[D] Swarm Host Redundant? - Page 16
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-Exalt-
United States972 Posts
just make 30 battle hellions, some siege tanks and vikings, gg! protoss is fucked though | ||
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ddrddrddrddr
1344 Posts
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
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MonkSEA
Australia1227 Posts
On October 25 2011 10:58 EternaL_9 wrote: just make 30 battle hellions, some siege tanks and vikings, gg! protoss is fucked though ? Siege tanks wouldn't help. Ghosts would. Protoss have Collosi, HT and Tempest to deal with this unit composition.. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
People are saying "why not just make vipers?"... well Vipers are not as combative of units. They are support casters. You will be sending a couple vipers, a handful of Swarm Hosts, ALONG with the rest of your army. Also don't forget Hydras are going to be actually useful off creep in HotS. That means you can have Viper AND SH backing up lings/roach/hydra.... and now think of the synergy these units have. Throw in a Spine Crawler or 2 and it's even stronger. Send in the Locusts first, right as you throw out some Dark Swarms on the enemy. That will force them to melee range, where the locusts will easily be able to take the first, while the rest of your army is holding the line. If they try to run, surround with Lings. This makes it much, much harder to move in on the Zerg army, and Zerg were always pretty hard to run from if you had Lings/Infestors. Currently a big ball can easily push in on an equivalent Zerg army. But imagine trying to do that with the cover of Dark Swarms? That means you have to take your time. But if you are taking your time, the SH's will constantly be spawning waves of Locusts. Of course it could probably use some balancing on spawn times, etc. But it sounds like an intriguing change to the Zerg metagame and actually helps Zerg in a role they are relatively weak in. My point - dont think of adding SH to your army alone. Think of adding SH/Viper/Speed Hydras to your army in the early-mid game. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
I'm not actually sure what tech they are, but if they are below hive then they also represent quite a serious "metagame" threat to protoss who forge fast expand into stargate play, as they won't have detection. currently you can use cannons to defend against burrowed roach or infestor play pretty easily as those units have short enough range that you would need to actively try and bust the front/drop/runby to get out of detection range, but if there was a threat of essentially having an indestructible siege tank shelling the buildings at your choke if you didn't go robo in pvz seems pretty huge to me. Edit: also, they could work extremely well together with muta in zvz, as i'm not sure how you could safely engage 5-6 swarm hosts outside your choke if they have a flock of air units floating above them. I'm not entirely sure how the new zerg detection works, but if muta can just focus down any vipers/whichever unit the viper gives detection, then the only real counter i see to that would to be to go muta against it aswell... | ||
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XRaDiiX
Canada1730 Posts
On October 25 2011 08:35 TSL-Lore wrote: One thing that really bothered my when Dustin was talking about the Swarm Host was that he kept saying that Zerg was the "slow, methodical grind" race, but i think this is already fundamentally flawed. Zerg isn't suppoesd to be a slow methodical grind, it's supposed to be fast reacting and swarming. The Swarm Host is a cool idea, but it needs to do whatever it does faster, like the Lurker in SCBW, which could devastate lines of marines really quickly. They even said they needed to find a way to "clean up a lot of marines really fast," but I'm pretty sure that a group of stimmed marines would be able to just run in and dispose of these slow shooting Swarm Hosts with a single scan. This person Speaks the Truth. We should take heed to this statement I have a Feeling Stimmed Marines gonna Melt These Swarm Hosts with a Single Scan with no Problem Considering i read somewhere their health was only 120 | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On October 25 2011 06:26 SpaceYeti wrote: I don't understand why we can't just have the lurker back... Stop Swarm Host < Stop Lurker Swarm Host drops < Lurker Drops Swarm Host zone control < Lurker zone control I don't think the Swarm Host looks very good at controlling space at all. I just see these dying to enemy fire before they even reach their target. And why would I ever use swarm hosts vs siege tanks if I have Blinding Cloud? Not excited about this unit at all. I miss my lurkers.  I'd even be okay with them removing burrow from banes if i could just have my lurkers back.Terran ball of 8 marauders with medivacs + scan will roflroll your 6 lurkers so hard it won't be funny. Protoss death ball with 4 Colossi + observer will roll your 12 lurkers. Have fun with lurkers. Edit: SH need a Hive upgrade in order to maintain that level of control when late game numbers get higher. SH also will have great synergy with Spine crawlers mid-late game, creating a siege line where units have to commit heavily just to take down 4 spines and 3 SHs. Edit2: Late game, you can stagger the burrows so they stream near continuously. :D Now that'll be a sight to behold. | ||
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Crisco
1170 Posts
On October 25 2011 11:52 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Terran ball of 8 marauders with medivacs + scan will roflroll your 6 lurkers so hard it won't be funny. Protoss death ball with 4 Colossi + observer will roll your 12 lurkers. Have fun with lurkers. Edit: SH need a Hive upgrade in order to maintain that level of control when late game numbers get higher. yeah, this is exactly right. Lurkers worked cause of the low bio hp in sc1. in SC2, marauders would ROLL over lurkers. Not to mention with the larger body size, it'd be hard to overlap splash. Second reason is that medics are now flying, another crucial weakness in the bio army of sc1. | ||
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Asymmetric
Scotland1309 Posts
On October 25 2011 08:45 BinxyBrown wrote: The range of it's attack is melee, its radius is one, the splash you saw was from tanks. And the reason we had to force units into the open was because of effective dps in a choke, with disruption web we can attack into chokes with banelings just fine, this unit serves no purpose other than harassment which ling runbys and infestors will do cheaper and better. The range is as far as its melee can reach, which appears to be great inspite of massed siege tank fire. If the tanks are forced to unsiege to stop firing and retreat/advance, then great, you've gained position. | ||
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Mauldo
United States750 Posts
Of course someone with a Raven or an Observer can run in and snipe them. It's the same from Creep Tumors, burrowed Roaches, or burrowed Infestors though. And like I've said before, it'll actually force Terrans to make Ravens, which they'll have to do anyway with burrow-moving Banelings. Gives you that same Brood War feel with Terran having to move out with the Science Vessel because of Lurkers, huh? Fuck, think about Spawn Hosts + Hydras + maybe 2 Infestors. They'd lock down a location until Colossi, right? You then have that location for five thousand years. | ||
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shockaslim
United States1105 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
When Zerg has entered mid-game with a huge advantage against an opponent (better against terran/siege tanks) but can't kill them given siege tanks, cannons, forcefields, and defensive lines, and instead of doing Zerg's only option - taking another base and going for an econ battle, and then possibly losing due to tech/deathball - they want to be able to apply mild pressure. Now, instead of Zerg completely stomping their opponent in the early game, and then going into midgame because "Damn, he has siege tanks" or "Damn, he has forcefields and is turtling", and then going "Well, even though it's impossible for my opponent to win, this game is going to go on for another 20 minutes" they can apply mild pressure. Now, it's blinding cloud and the Viper that will let Zerg choose to be aggressive instead of macro, but with the Swarm Host, a winning Zerg can apply mild pressure while expanding to someone who is turtling ridiculously. Too many Zerg games go where Zerg has such a huge, unlosable lead in the game, but can't just end it. This is a frustrationg I'm sure P and T do not understand, but for many Zerg, it's extremely frustrating to be straight up outplaying the opponent, but you still have to play another 20 minutes with this 'scrub' because they have a siege tank or a colossi. And it's extremely frustrating when you actually end up losing to the 2 base deathball. Now obviously at Masters this isn't an issue, but how many of you are even masters? How many times has Silver to Diamond, and even GM level Zergs, actually lost to a T/P despite having a million bases, only to die to a deathball? Once? Isn't that one time too many? And despite that, how many games have you played where, damn, the T/P made a cannon/bunker/colossi/siege tank, and even though they were being BM assholes and wouldn't leave, you had no option but to play the game another 20 minutes so you could get broodlords and finally end it safely? Every other game? I can tell you that as a Masters Zerg, every game I win, about 90% of them are games I already well won but the opponent is either BM and won't leave, or is too stupid to realize he lost, or simply doesn't understand he lost (maybe he doesnt know I took the gold, or that I went 2 base hive, or that I very riskily took a fast third and i didnt die for it). With the swarm host, now Zerg can apply pressure when they are in the lead. If you are not in the lead into the midgame, I can tell you that the gas cost of both swarm host, and the infestation pit (yes, now both infestor and swarm host come from infestation pit, no upgrades for swarm host on infestation pit since no upgrades necessary) will be a huge turnoff. You also can't sipmly put swarm hosts out front of an even game, since nothing is keeping the enemy contained. It also has less effectiveness against Protoss who don't cause friendly fire, unlike siege tanks. But the swarm host' swarmlings are free. | ||
CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On October 25 2011 12:21 Belial88 wrote: Swarm Host on it's own is a really shitty unit. It has an extremely niche role as well: When Zerg has entered mid-game with a huge advantage against an opponent (better against terran/siege tanks) but can't kill them given siege tanks, cannons, forcefields, and defensive lines, and instead of doing Zerg's only option - taking another base and going for an econ battle, and then possibly losing due to tech/deathball - they want to be able to apply mild pressure. Now, instead of Zerg completely stomping their opponent in the early game, and then going into midgame because "Damn, he has siege tanks" or "Damn, he has forcefields and is turtling", and then going "Well, even though it's impossible for my opponent to win, this game is going to go on for another 20 minutes" they can apply mild pressure. Now, it's blinding cloud and the Viper that will let Zerg choose to be aggressive instead of macro, but with the Swarm Host, a winning Zerg can apply mild pressure while expanding to someone who is turtling ridiculously. Too many Zerg games go where Zerg has such a huge, unlosable lead in the game, but can't just end it. This is a frustrationg I'm sure P and T do not understand, but for many Zerg, it's extremely frustrating to be straight up outplaying the opponent, but you still have to play another 20 minutes with this 'scrub' because they have a siege tank or a colossi. And it's extremely frustrating when you actually end up losing to the 2 base deathball. Now obviously at Masters this isn't an issue, but how many of you are even masters? How many times has Silver to Diamond, and even GM level Zergs, actually lost to a T/P despite having a million bases, only to die to a deathball? Once? Isn't that one time too many? And despite that, how many games have you played where, damn, the T/P made a cannon/bunker/colossi/siege tank, and even though they were being BM assholes and wouldn't leave, you had no option but to play the game another 20 minutes so you could get broodlords and finally end it safely? Every other game? I can tell you that as a Masters Zerg, every game I win, about 90% of them are games I already well won but the opponent is either BM and won't leave, or is too stupid to realize he lost, or simply doesn't understand he lost (maybe he doesnt know I took the gold, or that I went 2 base hive, or that I very riskily took a fast third and i didnt die for it). With the swarm host, now Zerg can apply pressure when they are in the lead. If you are not in the lead into the midgame, I can tell you that the gas cost of both swarm host, and the infestation pit (yes, now both infestor and swarm host come from infestation pit, no upgrades for swarm host on infestation pit since no upgrades necessary) will be a huge turnoff. You also can't sipmly put swarm hosts out front of an even game, since nothing is keeping the enemy contained. It also has less effectiveness against Protoss who don't cause friendly fire, unlike siege tanks. But the swarm host' swarmlings are free. That's kind of a problem. And by "kind of" I mean "titanic". Only a badly designed unit can fulfill such a niche role, if that's what you're implying. | ||
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VoiceOfDecember
Australia206 Posts
You're gonna get vipers at lair tech for detection and blinding cast. Awesome flying spellcaster. Get usual army of lings or roaches and whatever as you do. As ur getting infestors you go swarm hosts. You can crush a terran or protoss army when they move out. You will loose food but whatever, now spawn a few of these swarm hosts and begin to siege the enemy base, casting the blinding cast because these things have high dps and quite abit of health it will make them quite effective cuz the enemy army is low on army. Pump 30 drones and then send in ur free zerglings with the locusts and keep casting the blinding thing. Tear down the throat of the enemy. The further you are ahead of your turtle terran or walled off protoss, the faster you will kill them instead of having to wait for them to come out to crush their army again. And I'm speaking mostly for ladder games. The pros may figure out timing pushes or what not. That dynamic of play is cool. Quite zergy in my opinion. | ||
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Medzo
United States627 Posts
87 hit points is a lot. | ||
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Teim
Australia373 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On October 25 2011 12:36 VoiceOfDecember wrote: The way I see it is not to look at the unit by itself but rather with the whole race in HOTS. You're gonna get vipers at lair tech for detection and blinding cast. Awesome flying spellcaster. Get usual army of lings or roaches and whatever as you do. As ur getting infestors you go swarm hosts. You can crush a terran or protoss army when they move out. You will loose food but whatever, now spawn a few of these swarm hosts and begin to siege the enemy base, casting the blinding cast because these things have high dps and quite abit of health it will make them quite effective cuz the enemy army is low on army. Pump 30 drones and then send in ur free zerglings with the locusts and keep casting the blinding thing. Tear down the throat of the enemy. The further you are ahead of your turtle terran or walled off protoss, the faster you will kill them instead of having to wait for them to come out to crush their army again. And I'm speaking mostly for ladder games. The pros may figure out timing pushes or what not. That dynamic of play is cool. Quite zergy in my opinion. You won't have enough gas to support that. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
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mage36
415 Posts
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