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On October 25 2011 08:49 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 08:29 Nin-x wrote:On October 25 2011 08:14 Falcor wrote:
we dont want a super unit we wanted a unit that could control space on a map. This unit needs to be with other units and if its with other units either the spawned units are going to get stuck behind your ranged units or going to be fighting for space with your zerglings.
edit: it has me curious tho depending on the life cycle of the spawns. there was a trick in dota back in the day were you would block 1 lane with creeps you could spawn...and let the creeps that your base spawn build up until there is a huge mass of units then let them go.
So could you hold position some roaches or w/e and block the spawns until a 2 or 3 waves have spawned and then let them go? It does control space on the map, but i think you will have to help it a bit. For example, vs toss pick off the observer and they can't pass unless they are willing to take some damage. So pull the observer with your viper to pick it off, and toss will turn around i best. (Never see protoss players with more than 1 observer anyways lol) VS terran the same applies. Put a few baneling bombs around the map and some swarm hosts elsewhere and the terran will have to scan all over the place to move. If a raven is out, pull it out with your viper and pick it off. sooo like i said? but i think your over estimating the dmg this guy will do. sure if you let your units sit there and get hit it will work well. but im sure everyone has the basics of move stop command micro down. and with 15 seconds cooldown you should beable to deal with them quite easily unless theres units with them like i said. Which makes them alot less usefull imo. since a group of units alone would control that space. Show nested quote +The swarm host will control space, but you can't expect it to hold off a large force alone. It shouldnt hold off a large force but it should delay it and i dont see it doing that. especially since the swarm host itself is such a slow unit. Its not like the lurker where once it was deteced could ru away and reburrow and delay them more.
They seem to do ok damage. If you had the same supply of swarm hosts as the enemy force, it looks like the swarm hosts come out ahead. It does look like it might be less useful in the late game, but again i'm sure someone will come up with some creative ways to use them.
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On October 25 2011 09:16 Nin-x wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 08:49 Falcor wrote:On October 25 2011 08:29 Nin-x wrote:On October 25 2011 08:14 Falcor wrote:
we dont want a super unit we wanted a unit that could control space on a map. This unit needs to be with other units and if its with other units either the spawned units are going to get stuck behind your ranged units or going to be fighting for space with your zerglings.
edit: it has me curious tho depending on the life cycle of the spawns. there was a trick in dota back in the day were you would block 1 lane with creeps you could spawn...and let the creeps that your base spawn build up until there is a huge mass of units then let them go.
So could you hold position some roaches or w/e and block the spawns until a 2 or 3 waves have spawned and then let them go? It does control space on the map, but i think you will have to help it a bit. For example, vs toss pick off the observer and they can't pass unless they are willing to take some damage. So pull the observer with your viper to pick it off, and toss will turn around i best. (Never see protoss players with more than 1 observer anyways lol) VS terran the same applies. Put a few baneling bombs around the map and some swarm hosts elsewhere and the terran will have to scan all over the place to move. If a raven is out, pull it out with your viper and pick it off. sooo like i said? but i think your over estimating the dmg this guy will do. sure if you let your units sit there and get hit it will work well. but im sure everyone has the basics of move stop command micro down. and with 15 seconds cooldown you should beable to deal with them quite easily unless theres units with them like i said. Which makes them alot less usefull imo. since a group of units alone would control that space. The swarm host will control space, but you can't expect it to hold off a large force alone. It shouldnt hold off a large force but it should delay it and i dont see it doing that. especially since the swarm host itself is such a slow unit. Its not like the lurker where once it was deteced could ru away and reburrow and delay them more. They seem to do ok damage. If you had the same supply of swarm hosts as the enemy force, it looks like the swarm hosts come out ahead. It does look like it might be less useful in the late game, but again i'm sure someone will come up with some creative ways to use them.
i think my biggest problem is you get at the same time as a viper and i just dont see it being more useful then the viper in breaking defensice positions...but i think its definetly a have to wait and see thing
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On October 25 2011 09:13 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 08:59 infinity2k9 wrote:On October 25 2011 08:35 TSL-Lore wrote:
One thing that really bothered my when Dustin was talking about the Swarm Host was that he kept saying that Zerg was the "slow, methodical grind" race, but i think this is already fundamentally flawed. Zerg isn't suppoesd to be a slow methodical grind, it's supposed to be fast reacting and swarming.
The Swarm Host is a cool idea, but it needs to do whatever it does faster, like the Lurker in SCBW, which could devastate lines of marines really quickly. They even said they needed to find a way to "clean up a lot of marines really fast," but I'm pretty sure that a group of stimmed marines would be able to just run in and dispose of these slow shooting Swarm Hosts with a single scan.
Don't you notice that they deliberately made Zerg the slow methodical grind race? Infact in the alpha of WoL it was even more the case; lurkers and a few other defensive options were still in the game. It's like they intentionally wanted Zerg to be the turtle race and creep across the map like a slow push from Terran in BW. I don't think that's a particularly good idea in my opinion though. Zerg certainly doesn't play like it. That's the definition of marine-siege tank Terran.
Its the definition of marine-siege tank, but marine-siege tank in SC2 A-moves pretty well because of how durable the marines have become and how much DPS that army has.
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I think swarm host is going to be redundant in a way that nobody would actually use this to the way blizzard described.
If I was going to break a siege line, rather than using these slow things, why don't I just use viper to blind cloud the line and swarm it?
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On October 25 2011 09:18 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 09:16 Nin-x wrote:On October 25 2011 08:49 Falcor wrote:On October 25 2011 08:29 Nin-x wrote:On October 25 2011 08:14 Falcor wrote:
we dont want a super unit we wanted a unit that could control space on a map. This unit needs to be with other units and if its with other units either the spawned units are going to get stuck behind your ranged units or going to be fighting for space with your zerglings.
edit: it has me curious tho depending on the life cycle of the spawns. there was a trick in dota back in the day were you would block 1 lane with creeps you could spawn...and let the creeps that your base spawn build up until there is a huge mass of units then let them go.
So could you hold position some roaches or w/e and block the spawns until a 2 or 3 waves have spawned and then let them go? It does control space on the map, but i think you will have to help it a bit. For example, vs toss pick off the observer and they can't pass unless they are willing to take some damage. So pull the observer with your viper to pick it off, and toss will turn around i best. (Never see protoss players with more than 1 observer anyways lol) VS terran the same applies. Put a few baneling bombs around the map and some swarm hosts elsewhere and the terran will have to scan all over the place to move. If a raven is out, pull it out with your viper and pick it off. sooo like i said? but i think your over estimating the dmg this guy will do. sure if you let your units sit there and get hit it will work well. but im sure everyone has the basics of move stop command micro down. and with 15 seconds cooldown you should beable to deal with them quite easily unless theres units with them like i said. Which makes them alot less usefull imo. since a group of units alone would control that space. The swarm host will control space, but you can't expect it to hold off a large force alone. It shouldnt hold off a large force but it should delay it and i dont see it doing that. especially since the swarm host itself is such a slow unit. Its not like the lurker where once it was deteced could ru away and reburrow and delay them more. They seem to do ok damage. If you had the same supply of swarm hosts as the enemy force, it looks like the swarm hosts come out ahead. It does look like it might be less useful in the late game, but again i'm sure someone will come up with some creative ways to use them. i think my biggest problem is you get at the same time as a viper and i just dont see it being more useful then the viper in breaking defensice positions...but i think its definetly a have to wait and see thing
Yeah, viper seems like a better choice all around.
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I honestly love the idea of the SH. I just would like a spawn time buff, as a trade-off for a damage decrease.
As a composition, for a zerg player in the mid-game ZvT, I can definitely see zerg being able to safely navigate the mid-game with a few vipers casting their reverse dark swarm on any marines/siege tanks/hellions/whatever the terran makes, while 4-5 SH's are in position and lings and some blings too. Tell me of any way a terran is going to be able to deal with ALL of that, and be able to say that SH's are too underpowered? They are a SUPPORT unit, not a really heavy damage dealing unit such as the collosus or siege tank. They will work AMAZINGLY if you couple in 2-3 vipers with reverse dark swarm and heavily upgraded ling/bling.
Bring it on. :D
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On October 25 2011 09:32 Nin-x wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 09:18 Falcor wrote:On October 25 2011 09:16 Nin-x wrote:On October 25 2011 08:49 Falcor wrote:On October 25 2011 08:29 Nin-x wrote:On October 25 2011 08:14 Falcor wrote:
we dont want a super unit we wanted a unit that could control space on a map. This unit needs to be with other units and if its with other units either the spawned units are going to get stuck behind your ranged units or going to be fighting for space with your zerglings.
edit: it has me curious tho depending on the life cycle of the spawns. there was a trick in dota back in the day were you would block 1 lane with creeps you could spawn...and let the creeps that your base spawn build up until there is a huge mass of units then let them go.
So could you hold position some roaches or w/e and block the spawns until a 2 or 3 waves have spawned and then let them go? It does control space on the map, but i think you will have to help it a bit. For example, vs toss pick off the observer and they can't pass unless they are willing to take some damage. So pull the observer with your viper to pick it off, and toss will turn around i best. (Never see protoss players with more than 1 observer anyways lol) VS terran the same applies. Put a few baneling bombs around the map and some swarm hosts elsewhere and the terran will have to scan all over the place to move. If a raven is out, pull it out with your viper and pick it off. sooo like i said? but i think your over estimating the dmg this guy will do. sure if you let your units sit there and get hit it will work well. but im sure everyone has the basics of move stop command micro down. and with 15 seconds cooldown you should beable to deal with them quite easily unless theres units with them like i said. Which makes them alot less usefull imo. since a group of units alone would control that space. The swarm host will control space, but you can't expect it to hold off a large force alone. It shouldnt hold off a large force but it should delay it and i dont see it doing that. especially since the swarm host itself is such a slow unit. Its not like the lurker where once it was deteced could ru away and reburrow and delay them more. They seem to do ok damage. If you had the same supply of swarm hosts as the enemy force, it looks like the swarm hosts come out ahead. It does look like it might be less useful in the late game, but again i'm sure someone will come up with some creative ways to use them. i think my biggest problem is you get at the same time as a viper and i just dont see it being more useful then the viper in breaking defensice positions...but i think its definetly a have to wait and see thing Yeah, viper seems like a better choice all around.
I think the Swarm Host needs to fall into the role of "clean up a lot of marines really fast" like the Lurker did. Let the Viper be the siege breaker.
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I just wanted to say I love how people are calling the Viper's cloud "Reverse Dark Swarm" instead of "Disruption Web"
Other than that, yeah, Swarm Host needs to change in one way or another, I can think of a hundred different small changes that could be made to it to make it infinitely more useful while still having the same core ability.
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For those saying "well the Terran is just going to stim up some marines and kill it while its reloading"
...
What do you think infestors do to complement broodlords? It'll be literally the exact same situation. If the terran tries to do that he'll take a few swift fungals to the dome and lose all of his marines. The purpose of this unit is to try to initiate a response from the terran, which I think it does extremely well. It'll end up with cool dances between siege tanks and Swarm Hosts maneuvering back and forth with their packs of lings/marines behind them. I think its an awesome unit choice.
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hehe i like em, burrow spawn something unborrow run away, everyone wanted a siege unit, well can't be more siege unit then that lol.
Anyway the weaker disruption web of the viper (don't know the name right now x3) isn't useful in all of the situations and doesn't provide constant support. What would you cloud if there are 6 bunkers and 8 tanks well spread and some marine blobs.
What i don't like is, omg something has more range then the siege tank, they can't do that. Will be really annoying having costless stuff run up to your marines and cause splash damage from the tanks and you won't even see the swarm hosts as they already unborrowed and ran away.
Can't wait till they switch tank splash middle point to behind the target ^.^
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I'm going to enjoy pulling tanks into my swarm hosts right as they spawn locusts.
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On October 25 2011 09:59 zJayy962 wrote:
I'm going to enjoy pulling tanks into my swarm hosts right as they spawn locusts.
i dont see the pull making launch. its like a more op version of np since it comes from a flying unit.
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On October 25 2011 10:02 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 09:59 zJayy962 wrote:
I'm going to enjoy pulling tanks into my swarm hosts right as they spawn locusts. i dont see the pull making launch. its like a more op version of np since it comes from a flying unit.
Well if it does, I will enjoy making tanks fly into locusts. It'll be amazing.
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On October 25 2011 10:02 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 09:59 zJayy962 wrote:
I'm going to enjoy pulling tanks into my swarm hosts right as they spawn locusts. i dont see the pull making launch. its like a more op version of np since it comes from a flying unit.
I can't wait to pull Marines into Banelings.
FINALLY my banelings will be able to connect!
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On October 25 2011 10:10 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 10:02 Falcor wrote:On October 25 2011 09:59 zJayy962 wrote:
I'm going to enjoy pulling tanks into my swarm hosts right as they spawn locusts. i dont see the pull making launch. its like a more op version of np since it comes from a flying unit. I can't wait to pull Marines into Banelings. FINALLY my banelings will be able to connect!
yes pulling 1 marine into a baneling for 150 energy is amazing!
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Without knowing what tech it requires and so forth; if this is possible to get at early lair / pre-lair, it could be nice to just send one or two towards your opponent to keep them busy. In the early stages of the game, having to use scans etc instead of MULEs (if they want to push out on the host) it'll dig in to their economy.
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A broodlord spawns 12 broodlings in the time it takes a SH to spawn 2 locusts. The combined HP of the broodlings are greater, they can't be intercepted on the way to the target, and they do more DPS than the SH does.
Why bother with the SH?
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On October 25 2011 10:52 Peleus wrote:
A broodlord spawns 12 broodlings in the time it takes a SH to spawn 2 locusts. The combined HP of the broodlings are greater, they can't be intercepted on the way to the target, and they do more DPS than the SH does.
Why bother with the SH?
its lair not hive
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I thought lurker was nice because of its splash damage and burrow, making it really tough to beat unless you had tanks. They kinda missed the point I think with swarm hosts. These units are just really boring. You're counting more on siege tank splash than the actual power of the locusts it seems.
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On October 25 2011 10:55 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 10:52 Peleus wrote:
A broodlord spawns 12 broodlings in the time it takes a SH to spawn 2 locusts. The combined HP of the broodlings are greater, they can't be intercepted on the way to the target, and they do more DPS than the SH does.
Why bother with the SH? its lair not hive
Also harder to take down; faster, not hit by vikings, burrowed, etc.
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EPT
