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In HOTS, low pylons no longer power high ground - Page 24

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Like a Boss
Profile Joined January 2011
502 Posts
October 24 2011 20:35 GMT
#461
great move by blizzard,.
nakedsurfer
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada500 Posts
October 24 2011 20:40 GMT
#462
On October 25 2011 05:30 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 05:27 SoylentCreep wrote:
I like this change. At least i can have a realistic chance of stopping that cannon rush on my hatch first on Tal Darim Altar. Just give Toss their pylon range back, that would make it more acceptable i guess. Nerfing cheese like cannon rushes always get a +1 in my book. Cheese shouldn't be removed from the game by nerfing it but it should require some skill and not some 5 apm kiddo derping as they build their wall of cannons while FFE.

You're saying there should be nothing to punish you for HATCHERY FIRST?

Jesus christ, that's like me saying you should need 2 Overlords to make a Spawning Pool so I can Nexus First safely.


No he's saying you shouldn't be able to fast expand easy while you can own the shit out of the zerg expansion with cannons so easily with the pylon on the low ground on that map. Your example is retarded because you're comparing a zerg which would be basically all in if they do a 7 pool or something similar vs a FFE whereas your FFE cannon rush isn't all in at all vs a hatch first
Root4Root
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
October 24 2011 20:42 GMT
#463
On October 25 2011 05:40 nakedsurfer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 05:30 VirgilSC2 wrote:
On October 25 2011 05:27 SoylentCreep wrote:
I like this change. At least i can have a realistic chance of stopping that cannon rush on my hatch first on Tal Darim Altar. Just give Toss their pylon range back, that would make it more acceptable i guess. Nerfing cheese like cannon rushes always get a +1 in my book. Cheese shouldn't be removed from the game by nerfing it but it should require some skill and not some 5 apm kiddo derping as they build their wall of cannons while FFE.

You're saying there should be nothing to punish you for HATCHERY FIRST?

Jesus christ, that's like me saying you should need 2 Overlords to make a Spawning Pool so I can Nexus First safely.


No he's saying you shouldn't be able to fast expand easy while you can own the shit out of the zerg expansion with cannons so easily with the pylon on the low ground on that map. Your example is retarded because you're comparing a zerg which would be basically all in if they do a 7 pool or something similar vs a FFE whereas your FFE cannon rush isn't all in at all vs a hatch first

you're acting like cannon rushing (which only REALLY works on taldarim in this respect) is some infallible strategy to set the toss ahead. it isn't.
VirgilSC2
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States6151 Posts
October 24 2011 20:42 GMT
#464
On October 25 2011 05:40 nakedsurfer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 05:30 VirgilSC2 wrote:
On October 25 2011 05:27 SoylentCreep wrote:
I like this change. At least i can have a realistic chance of stopping that cannon rush on my hatch first on Tal Darim Altar. Just give Toss their pylon range back, that would make it more acceptable i guess. Nerfing cheese like cannon rushes always get a +1 in my book. Cheese shouldn't be removed from the game by nerfing it but it should require some skill and not some 5 apm kiddo derping as they build their wall of cannons while FFE.

You're saying there should be nothing to punish you for HATCHERY FIRST?

Jesus christ, that's like me saying you should need 2 Overlords to make a Spawning Pool so I can Nexus First safely.


No he's saying you shouldn't be able to fast expand easy while you can own the shit out of the zerg expansion with cannons so easily with the pylon on the low ground on that map. Your example is retarded because you're comparing a zerg which would be basically all in if they do a 7 pool or something similar vs a FFE whereas your FFE cannon rush isn't all in at all vs a hatch first

Considering that at least in Korea, 6 Pool into a Macro Game is basically the standard play against Forge FE, that makes no sense.

Also, it's not that hard to stop if you put your Overlord in position like a good Zerg player should.
Clarity Gaming #1 Fan | Avid MTG Grinder | @VirgilSC2
Tazerenix
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia340 Posts
October 24 2011 20:44 GMT
#465
On October 25 2011 05:40 nakedsurfer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 05:30 VirgilSC2 wrote:
On October 25 2011 05:27 SoylentCreep wrote:
I like this change. At least i can have a realistic chance of stopping that cannon rush on my hatch first on Tal Darim Altar. Just give Toss their pylon range back, that would make it more acceptable i guess. Nerfing cheese like cannon rushes always get a +1 in my book. Cheese shouldn't be removed from the game by nerfing it but it should require some skill and not some 5 apm kiddo derping as they build their wall of cannons while FFE.

You're saying there should be nothing to punish you for HATCHERY FIRST?

Jesus christ, that's like me saying you should need 2 Overlords to make a Spawning Pool so I can Nexus First safely.


No he's saying you shouldn't be able to fast expand easy while you can own the shit out of the zerg expansion with cannons so easily with the pylon on the low ground on that map. Your example is retarded because you're comparing a zerg which would be basically all in if they do a 7 pool or something similar vs a FFE whereas your FFE cannon rush isn't all in at all vs a hatch first

Cannon rushes against FFE are the easiest thing ever to stop. Take 2 drones down instead of 1 and get 1 drone to patrol the entrance and BOOM, FREE HATCH FIRST.
Sabu113
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States11047 Posts
October 24 2011 20:46 GMT
#466
So all those cute tactics about placing a pylon near a base. Attacking quickly and bypassing fixed defenses to move into position to warp reinforcements into teh tender underbelly.... Dead. Completely dead. Using a warpprism changes it completely.

Biomine is a drunken chick who is on industrial strength amphetamines and would just grab your dick and jerk it as hard and violently as she could while screaming 'OMG FUCK ME', because she saw it in a Sasha Grey video ...-Wombat_Ni
zJayy962
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
1363 Posts
October 24 2011 20:49 GMT
#467
On October 25 2011 05:42 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 05:40 nakedsurfer wrote:
On October 25 2011 05:30 VirgilSC2 wrote:
On October 25 2011 05:27 SoylentCreep wrote:
I like this change. At least i can have a realistic chance of stopping that cannon rush on my hatch first on Tal Darim Altar. Just give Toss their pylon range back, that would make it more acceptable i guess. Nerfing cheese like cannon rushes always get a +1 in my book. Cheese shouldn't be removed from the game by nerfing it but it should require some skill and not some 5 apm kiddo derping as they build their wall of cannons while FFE.

You're saying there should be nothing to punish you for HATCHERY FIRST?

Jesus christ, that's like me saying you should need 2 Overlords to make a Spawning Pool so I can Nexus First safely.


No he's saying you shouldn't be able to fast expand easy while you can own the shit out of the zerg expansion with cannons so easily with the pylon on the low ground on that map. Your example is retarded because you're comparing a zerg which would be basically all in if they do a 7 pool or something similar vs a FFE whereas your FFE cannon rush isn't all in at all vs a hatch first

Considering that at least in Korea, 6 Pool into a Macro Game is basically the standard play against Forge FE, that makes no sense.

Also, it's not that hard to stop if you put your Overlord in position like a good Zerg player should.


How can you have a standard vs something that you must do blindly. This is very false. Standard in Korea is either Roach ling pressure or quick 3rd ( read ~4-5 minutes) vs fast expand.
ComusLoM
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Norway3547 Posts
October 24 2011 20:50 GMT
#468
I see this as a huge nerf on pvt, which is already completely impossible for Protoss. It eliminates a lot of early attacks as well as late game main-base harassment without the use of warp prisms. It nerfs cannon cheese too in PvZ which is pretty pathetic as it is against a good opponent. This change only improves 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4, and just makes Protoss even worse.
"The White Woman Speaks in Tongues That Are All Lies" - Incontrol; Member #37 of the Chill Fanclub
VirgilSC2
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States6151 Posts
October 24 2011 20:52 GMT
#469
On October 25 2011 05:49 zJayy962 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 05:42 VirgilSC2 wrote:
On October 25 2011 05:40 nakedsurfer wrote:
On October 25 2011 05:30 VirgilSC2 wrote:
On October 25 2011 05:27 SoylentCreep wrote:
I like this change. At least i can have a realistic chance of stopping that cannon rush on my hatch first on Tal Darim Altar. Just give Toss their pylon range back, that would make it more acceptable i guess. Nerfing cheese like cannon rushes always get a +1 in my book. Cheese shouldn't be removed from the game by nerfing it but it should require some skill and not some 5 apm kiddo derping as they build their wall of cannons while FFE.

You're saying there should be nothing to punish you for HATCHERY FIRST?

Jesus christ, that's like me saying you should need 2 Overlords to make a Spawning Pool so I can Nexus First safely.


No he's saying you shouldn't be able to fast expand easy while you can own the shit out of the zerg expansion with cannons so easily with the pylon on the low ground on that map. Your example is retarded because you're comparing a zerg which would be basically all in if they do a 7 pool or something similar vs a FFE whereas your FFE cannon rush isn't all in at all vs a hatch first

Considering that at least in Korea, 6 Pool into a Macro Game is basically the standard play against Forge FE, that makes no sense.

Also, it's not that hard to stop if you put your Overlord in position like a good Zerg player should.


How can you have a standard vs something that you must do blindly. This is very false. Standard in Korea is either Roach ling pressure or quick 3rd ( read ~4-5 minutes) vs fast expand.

While it does take into account a fair bit of meta-gaming, player like DongRaeGu tend to 6pool quite often in ZvP, expecting the FFE.
Clarity Gaming #1 Fan | Avid MTG Grinder | @VirgilSC2
Shebuha
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada1335 Posts
October 24 2011 20:58 GMT
#470
On October 24 2011 18:45 MrBitter wrote:
Really silly change. Completely eliminates a lot of Protoss strats that involves warping in on the high ground.

(void ray builds, some phoenix plays, and obviously early gateway cheese)

Why do this?


I dunno... Blizzard usually fixes something that has been shown to be a problem or people complain about... This is just to eliminate options for 1 base Protoss I guess...

This change doesn't even make sense in the context of the metagame. "Protoss not doing so hot? KK just do a more 'minor' nerf... no, no, no the other two races are OK."
[uci] Fizik
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States263 Posts
October 24 2011 21:00 GMT
#471
They nerf our pylons, but they dont nerf emp radius... the warpgate mechanic is one of the few strengths of Protoss. I don't understand this nerf, when I try to think about who the hell would complain that protoss having to proxy a pylon, wait 25 seconds for it to warp it while protecting it, then get vision up the ramp, then warp in units, is "Imbalanced" I can only think of 14-16 kids in silver league. How can creep go up and down cliffs but an ethereal energy field not?


+ Show Spoiler +
what the fuck blizzard.
Liquid'HerO fan for LIFE.
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
October 24 2011 21:00 GMT
#472
Silly question but do we have any further confirmation except the one picture?
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
October 24 2011 21:01 GMT
#473
ppl are saying this makes sense .. how does this even make sense lol
Writerptrk
Smile[PaiN]
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada58 Posts
October 24 2011 21:08 GMT
#474
this is a good change in my opinion, good job blizzard. (hides from the thousands of diamond and lower protoss players on the forum)
VPCursed
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
1044 Posts
October 24 2011 21:08 GMT
#475
i've always felt that the voidray strats with warpin on high ground are a little OP.
On some maps it can be very hard to move between ur main bunkers and nat bunkers, and if he can FF the ramp from low ground you just basically lose. I've even seen pros lose to amateurs doing this, despite the pro preparing for it, im honestly surprised by the backlash. There are still many means for protoss aggression, its not like warp prism all in's haven't been uncommon on the ladder lately.
iamcaustic
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada1509 Posts
October 24 2011 21:08 GMT
#476
On October 25 2011 06:00 [uci] Fizik wrote:
They nerf our pylons, but they dont nerf emp radius... the warpgate mechanic is one of the few strengths of Protoss. I don't understand this nerf, when I try to think about who the hell would complain that protoss having to proxy a pylon, wait 25 seconds for it to warp it while protecting it, then get vision up the ramp, then warp in units, is "Imbalanced" I can only think of 14-16 kids in silver league. How can creep go up and down cliffs but an ethereal energy field not?


+ Show Spoiler +
what the fuck blizzard.

Uh, they actually directly discussed EMP and how they were experimenting with reducing its radius in their multiplayer panel. This pylon change didn't get any air time, though.

I don't understand how you could blatantly ignore something they straight-up aired on TV to complain "Terran OP, Protoss UP". o_O
Twitter: @iamcaustic
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
October 24 2011 21:10 GMT
#477
On October 25 2011 06:08 VPCursed wrote:
i've always felt that the voidray strats with warpin on high ground are a little OP.
On some maps it can be very hard to move between ur main bunkers and nat bunkers, and if he can FF the ramp from low ground you just basically lose. I've even seen pros lose to amateurs doing this, despite the pro preparing for it, im honestly surprised by the backlash. There are still many means for protoss aggression, its not like warp prism all in's haven't been uncommon on the ladder lately.

there are plenty of strats that terran can do that are "very hard" to hold off. how is that an argument against them being the game?
Fairwell
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria195 Posts
October 24 2011 21:12 GMT
#478
On October 25 2011 01:48 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 01:44 Hickorynut wrote:
On October 25 2011 01:36 Panzamelano wrote:
so i guess that if i get contained i just have to make a robo and a warp prism to even get out... OH WAIT by the time it is done im already so far behind im dead -_-


No, this only affects low to high, not high to low. You will not be limited that way, unless you are a escaping to high ground and you have a spotter. Wait, that never happens. Stop complaining, you are only losing cheese.

Nope, look at the second image in the OP, it also affects High > Low, not just Low > High.


Does this seriously mean that you can't warpin units on the low ground with high ground pylons any more? (for example warpin units on the low ground from a pylon on the edge of my own base, so that now they have to walk all the way around)

Apart from that also some high ground warpins make sense, like for dt harass and an obs providing vision so that you don't always need a prism everywhere.
VPCursed
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
1044 Posts
October 24 2011 21:13 GMT
#479
On October 25 2011 06:10 Shiori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 06:08 VPCursed wrote:
i've always felt that the voidray strats with warpin on high ground are a little OP.
On some maps it can be very hard to move between ur main bunkers and nat bunkers, and if he can FF the ramp from low ground you just basically lose. I've even seen pros lose to amateurs doing this, despite the pro preparing for it, im honestly surprised by the backlash. There are still many means for protoss aggression, its not like warp prism all in's haven't been uncommon on the ladder lately.

there are plenty of strats that terran can do that are "very hard" to hold off. how is that an argument against them being the game?

its not that its hard to hold off, its that i can look at my game and say.. well maybe i should just build 5-6 raxes from now on when i expand.
I mean, you have to understand that holding this off on some maps is borderline impossible, you cannot prepare for it effectively. Optimally yes.. effectively no.
Cloak
Profile Joined October 2009
United States816 Posts
October 24 2011 21:15 GMT
#480
Looks like Blizzard is back to finish the job.
The more you know, the less you understand.
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