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On October 23 2011 08:55 Sawofhackness wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 23 2011 08:23 Teiwaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 08:12 Sawofhackness wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 23 2011 07:37 Teiwaz wrote:Actually I'm amazed Dustin Browder had the balls to personally present that shit and nobody face slapped him off the stage. I'm a little bit surprised about the love for the Tempest. Seriously, an expensive late game unit to deal with mid-game Muta balls? o.O Guessing from the video the Shredder seems stupidly OP. The "cutting edge tech" Warhound looks like an early prototype for the Goliath, based on a SCV. Great job unit design department. Attack/Spawn speed of the Swarm Host renders it quite useless IMO. Once again, great job on creating a burrowed Broodlord that mimics a Lurker. If I want Terran or Zerg units, I'd fucking play that race - I don't need a stupid Replicant for that. So the Oracle is supposed to be the Protoss' (cheap?) harass unit? Yeah, sure... Pylon/Assimilator + Arc Shield works way better as can be seen right at Blizzcon. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278235The Viper seems ok'ish, but, once more, great job for coming up with the idea of a flying Defiler. Oh Blizzard, I see an epic fail incoming - great job Dusty! A unit that can cliff-walk and fire giant AOE lasers? oh god that'll never work! So which unit did that in SC:BW? None? Oh... Show nested quote +Flying air units than can transform and fight on the ground? oh LOL so imba! Which unit did that in SC:BW? None? Hmmm... you might be up to something here... Any unit did that in BW? No? Huh... I really think you got it. Spot on, dude. Your insight in flaming is pretty amazing. Those "crazy" units are in the game you are playing. The same bitter people whinged about them the same way you are whinging about proposed new units for the next expansion. Relax, chill out and enjoy - don't be that nerd Tastosis do impressions of, just don't be 
Meh...yeah... maybe my "yay, fuck us toss again..." frustration level is getting a little bit in the way of positive thinking. Let's just say I'm totally NOT hyped for HotS now.
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I hate the idea of the oracle, toss doesn't need ANOTHER caster without the ability to fight
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On October 23 2011 09:01 Teiwaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 08:55 Sawofhackness wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 23 2011 08:23 Teiwaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 08:12 Sawofhackness wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 23 2011 07:37 Teiwaz wrote:Actually I'm amazed Dustin Browder had the balls to personally present that shit and nobody face slapped him off the stage. I'm a little bit surprised about the love for the Tempest. Seriously, an expensive late game unit to deal with mid-game Muta balls? o.O Guessing from the video the Shredder seems stupidly OP. The "cutting edge tech" Warhound looks like an early prototype for the Goliath, based on a SCV. Great job unit design department. Attack/Spawn speed of the Swarm Host renders it quite useless IMO. Once again, great job on creating a burrowed Broodlord that mimics a Lurker. If I want Terran or Zerg units, I'd fucking play that race - I don't need a stupid Replicant for that. So the Oracle is supposed to be the Protoss' (cheap?) harass unit? Yeah, sure... Pylon/Assimilator + Arc Shield works way better as can be seen right at Blizzcon. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278235The Viper seems ok'ish, but, once more, great job for coming up with the idea of a flying Defiler. Oh Blizzard, I see an epic fail incoming - great job Dusty! A unit that can cliff-walk and fire giant AOE lasers? oh god that'll never work! So which unit did that in SC:BW? None? Oh... Show nested quote +Flying air units than can transform and fight on the ground? oh LOL so imba! Which unit did that in SC:BW? None? Hmmm... you might be up to something here... Any unit did that in BW? No? Huh... I really think you got it. Spot on, dude. Your insight in flaming is pretty amazing. Those "crazy" units are in the game you are playing. The same bitter people whinged about them the same way you are whinging about proposed new units for the next expansion. Relax, chill out and enjoy - don't be that nerd Tastosis do impressions of, just don't be Meh...yeah... maybe my "yay, fuck us toss again..." frustration level is getting a little bit in the way of positive thinking. Let's just say I'm totally NOT hyped for HotS now.
This this this this.
I think we really need to know how tempests will fair against vikings tbh, fun fact is that while carriers were destroyed by mariens they werent actually THAT terrible against vikings. The tempest will only do a ton of damage to light units, right?
btw does anyone find it funny that we get no answers to all the terran abuse but as soon as zergs start using mutas theyre trying to give us a hardcounter?
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I understand the hate for protoss but understand it's all utility. The carrier was never used in pro play, perhaps now we will see the Tempest used in mass mutalisk strategies? It opens up options! Even in PvT as a buffer against vikings?
Protoss will still be making zealots/sentries/stalkers/immortals/colossus, I don't see how that's going to change. All protoss is getting are additions to the units protoss already normally uses. Are the new protoss units badly designed? I voted yes except on tempest, but I still think they have their uses. It's gonna come down to how the team balances these units so they aren't OP or nerfed beyond usefulness.
Zerg has the best units I think. The Viper is going to be a unit I use in every match up. Roach vs Roach wars is going to be fun with the new dark swarm, its also going to own in ZvT. The grab move will mostly be used in ZvP but I can see it's usefulness in grabbing siege tanks or escaping medivacs or pulling back weak mutas/ultras/queens etc.
Terran is getting a huge Mech buff and I think that's great. I think terran is getting the better end of the deal. The design of their warhound isn't my favorite but the theme of everything is fitting perfectly. The new spidermines are really going to allow mech to flourish in every matchup including TvP. The warhound will help with this, although the marauder already does it's job against stalkers, the Warhound will be a great late game transition, plus they will be very useful against mutas. I almost think warhound/battle hellion combinations will be very strong together in the late game in TvP.
Not to mention the new nexus buffs and general zerg unit buffs, this game is turning out to be exciting.
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On October 23 2011 09:06 -y0shi- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 09:01 Teiwaz wrote:On October 23 2011 08:55 Sawofhackness wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 23 2011 08:23 Teiwaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 08:12 Sawofhackness wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 23 2011 07:37 Teiwaz wrote:Actually I'm amazed Dustin Browder had the balls to personally present that shit and nobody face slapped him off the stage. I'm a little bit surprised about the love for the Tempest. Seriously, an expensive late game unit to deal with mid-game Muta balls? o.O Guessing from the video the Shredder seems stupidly OP. The "cutting edge tech" Warhound looks like an early prototype for the Goliath, based on a SCV. Great job unit design department. Attack/Spawn speed of the Swarm Host renders it quite useless IMO. Once again, great job on creating a burrowed Broodlord that mimics a Lurker. If I want Terran or Zerg units, I'd fucking play that race - I don't need a stupid Replicant for that. So the Oracle is supposed to be the Protoss' (cheap?) harass unit? Yeah, sure... Pylon/Assimilator + Arc Shield works way better as can be seen right at Blizzcon. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278235The Viper seems ok'ish, but, once more, great job for coming up with the idea of a flying Defiler. Oh Blizzard, I see an epic fail incoming - great job Dusty! A unit that can cliff-walk and fire giant AOE lasers? oh god that'll never work! So which unit did that in SC:BW? None? Oh... Show nested quote +Flying air units than can transform and fight on the ground? oh LOL so imba! Which unit did that in SC:BW? None? Hmmm... you might be up to something here... Any unit did that in BW? No? Huh... I really think you got it. Spot on, dude. Your insight in flaming is pretty amazing. Those "crazy" units are in the game you are playing. The same bitter people whinged about them the same way you are whinging about proposed new units for the next expansion. Relax, chill out and enjoy - don't be that nerd Tastosis do impressions of, just don't be Meh...yeah... maybe my "yay, fuck us toss again..." frustration level is getting a little bit in the way of positive thinking. Let's just say I'm totally NOT hyped for HotS now. This this this this. I think we really need to know how tempests will fair against vikings tbh, fun fact is that while carriers were destroyed by mariens they werent actually THAT terrible against vikings. The tempest will only do a ton of damage to light units, right? btw does anyone find it funny that we get no answers to all the terran abuse but as soon as zergs start using mutas theyre trying to give us a hardcounter?
On the multiplayer panel, david said it will counter everything in the air fairly well if they're clumped to a degree. I imagine it'll look about as ugly as a thor (bonus to light) getting a shot off against a clump of vikings right now.
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The only unit I like is the viper, the only unit that is even rationally designed is the viper. The rest are useless or literally add to the problem...
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Viper will pretty much let zergs go mass ling vs a protoss. 120 lings+5 defilers: Gank all the colossi, proceed to rape protoss ground with lings.
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I'm switching from Protoss after this. I thought we could get some interesting units that change the way Protoss games play out. Instead, we get units that are purely complimentary and will not change the general strategy of Protoss. It's still gonna be about getting Colossi and High Templar/Archons and amassing a deathball. Protoss is just too boring, and will remain so in HotS.
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My personal, inexpert opinions:
Terran
Battle Hellions - I guess they might make mech more viable? I don't anticipate them being particularly unbalancing, so probably a good addition.
Ghost Cloaking - A small buff I think? Terrans'll be able to cloak Ghosts and not worry about running out of energy before they can launch their EMPs... as a Protoss, I should probably be against, but frankly Ghosts are a super sexy unit to play and watch, so no objections.
Reapers - Not much to say. Losing the structure attack seems a strange loss and the Reaper might lose some versatility as a result, not sure if their healing will compensate.
Battlecruisers - Might be cool, is their default speed going to be reduced back to its pre-patch state?
Shredder - Terran is complete enough that I didn't expect Blizzard to be able to give them something good and interesting that wasn't unbalancing or redundant, and yet here we are. I'm not sure how valuable this unit will actually be, but congratulations to Blizzard on the concept. Also, it has the name of a TMNT villain, so additional kudos.
Warhound/Thor - This, on the other hand... on the ground, this sounds like a big, slow, expensive Marauder that has neither Stim nor Concussive Shells, and in the air... I don't get it. Did Terrans have an anti-air problem? Vikings are fantastic air-to-air for expensive, armoured units, Thors are great against, cheap, clumped up light units (Banshees, Phoenixes, Mutalisks), and Marines rape anything that gets close. Why do we need and/or want this unit? What need does it serve?
Zerg
Burrow Charge - Cool.
Moving Burrowed Banelings - Very cool.
Hydralisk Speed Upgrade - A lot of people are going to be very happy about this.
Corrupter - Still the lamest unit in the game. The new ability might be useful, but it won't change the fact that the Corrupter only exists because of the Colossus. At least give it a melee attack or something to give it a personality.
Viper - Sounds interesting, if it could kill units by pulling them off cliffs it would instantly become the most epic unit in this expansion.
Swarm Host - A bit like a Lurker, but actually feels more Zergish. I like it.
Protoss
Nexus - Aside from cheese, I don't expect the Arc Cannon will be especially valuable compared to Chrono Boost and Mass Recall, but Mass Recall might actually be so awesome that I'll have to stop complaining about MULEs.
Oracle - I like the concept, but it'll take a lot of time to figure out how worthwhile this unit really is.
Replicant - Again, interesting concept, but again it's going to take a lot of time to figure out if it's really worthwhile.
Tempest - Doesn't sound particularly interesting. Kinda overlaps the Void Ray and Phoenix, making the entire set less interesting.
No Khaydarin Amulet  . Colossus still terrible unit.
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Battle helion: essentially a firebat, why not just bring back the firebat then?
Shredder: some form of static defense that doesn't require units. +1 for me.
Warhound: cosmetically scv + roids lol. Closer to what the goliath was so I like it and I like the bonus to mech but I think air splash is over kill.
Viper: I like the spell that reduces range... that's about it.
Swarm host: worst of the new units IMO, the spawns themselves are not an attack like the broodlords so there's a chance that they will just get melted by an army before they do anything, zerg still lacks ranged splash(non-spell) and still not a true cloacked attacker, this is essentially infested terrans on auto cast.
Tempest: I think they should've worked on carriers, this unit seems ok but the carrier was a classic.
Replicant: not sure about this unit.
Oracle: the mineral forcefield looks annoying but the stasis for static defense could be a headache
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Who else thinks the terran radiation is a new way of worker death?
Radiation drops incoming!
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Aside from the utility of the units or potential balance problems, I think they're going to need to do some improvements in the visuals and animations.
The viper pull attack looks ridiculous. You have a flying unit, holding perfectly still, while yanking a massive ground unit like it's a Kleenex box. It goes completely against all your sense of physics, and just looks like nonsense. If anything, the colossus would tip over! It would make more sense if the pulling was slower with more sensible acceleration and the viper moved backwards like a tugboat, or if the viper was a ground unit. Make massive units *look* heavy when you're pulling them.
The warhound just looks silly, as do all the new Protoss units.
The Ultralisk burrow charge is a cool concept, but it looks really silly for it to move more quickly underground than above. Give it a leaping/pouncing attack instead. Same effect, but less laughable physics.
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Blizzard did very poor job with Protoss...
They should reconsider imho.
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For some reason, I see the Terran shredder causing problems. Sure it helps Terran when they leave their base, but how can zerg counter then? I am not suggesting they should get rid of it, but hopefully it won't be over-powered. It'll be a sad day if I do a run by into a Terran base and suddenly lose all my lings in a few seconds.
Idk, I guess we'll see how it will work out.
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Seems to me like Toss has become the we like workers race, really a "harrass" unit which actually doesn't kill workers? Even the mechanics of blocking the minerals for a certain amount of time isn't really new since you could do the same with a sentry drop, but nearly no one does it, because if you just want to prevent your opponent from mining for a certain amount of time basicly any attack will do this as a side effect. The other ability of the oracle seems to be a nice idea, but the oracle is certainly not the unit, that will resolve the protoss harass problem.
The replicator seemed to be a good idea, but its concept remembers me to much of an ability of the dark archon from BW only weaker and this ability was even rarely used. So why go this direction when it allready failed in the past.
About the Tempest, the idea seems good but we have to see, how it will be working in the future to see if it really helps with mass air in the lategame. I was pretty much unimpressed by the video, if you clump up your mutas in such a way Archons would have done the same job. Even if the Tempest seems to be the best new protoss unit, I would have prefered to still have the carrier...
About the others races it seems like the Zerg got the most of the stuff they wanted (somekind of defiler + units that can attack while burrowed) about terran I am not sure what they wanted/needed.
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well, 1 thing i think people need to consider is that unit stats could change with Hots depending on how things play out. if some of the units are to powerful/ not powerful enough the units we currently have could become strong or the cost change etc which can entirly change the game
(sentry for 75 gas anyone?)
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On October 23 2011 10:19 AeonStrife wrote:
For some reason, I see the Terran shredder causing problems. Sure it helps Terran when they leave their base, but how can zerg counter then? I am not suggesting they should get rid of it, but hopefully it won't be over-powered. It'll be a sad day if I do a run by into a Terran base and suddenly lose all my lings in a few seconds.
Idk, I guess we'll see how it will work out.
Well its only useful if Terran is going Mech. If their going bio they Mutas can just wipe out these gassy units and I'm sure their low HP so blings will still wreck them. Or infested Terrans. And remember these are factory units. Meaning that every Shredder is a tank that is not producing or that Terran need to invest 100gas for another factory.
Basically It will turn into BW mech, where Zerg has to get a huge Econ and break Terran with endless waves of units. Most likely Hydras with speed plus Vipers for defence. Remember that Vipers can reduce Shredder range to 1 O_O.
I forsee Muta harass into Mass Hydra with Viper support
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The swarm host is shit. Zerg needed something with defensive capabilities that could hold ground......this does neither. It spawns 2 visible broodlings every like 20 seconds and doesn't do splash damage. I actually cant think of scenarios where this unit is good.
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On October 23 2011 05:54 fanvadmeck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 05:47 BushidoSnipr wrote:
Why is TL hatin on the toss units..I think theyre amazing and will definitely help the race out a TON
(<--- zerg player) A major problem is the replica thing because when you go into a game as a certain race you want to play that race. Not build the other races units at an overexpensive cost. Also blizzard saying that "maybe protoss players have a hard time with ghost now we want to give them the ability to use them". I mean COME ON, ghosts are good because they get the shields away making zealots melt and taking away ht energy.. it is by far nothing i want to use vs a terran army. Blizzard why would i want to make more expensive ghosts to counter ghost so they cant counter my gateway stuff? Really?
This this this this. Holy crap this is exactly what I'm thinking. Also, it made me literally sad thinking about having to use this unit (dia protoss)
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I'm actually very very disappointed in the swarm host, as a Zerg player. In my opinion, it needs one of these things to actually merit use:
1. Much faster rate of fire.
2. Much scarier units spawned.
3. Units don't time out for a long enough time to allow a few rounds of them to exist concurrently if the swarm host sits around making them long enough.
4. Units spawned move much faster (broodling speed, maybe.)
It seems the use against Terran is extremely heavily dependent on causing friendly fire splash from siege tanks, forcing them to unsiege and thus allowing Zerg to break the position. That's all fine and dandy, but what about against Protoss? Since all mid-late game Protoss armies waltz around with an observer and lack any autocast friendly fire abilities, I very much expect swarm hosts to be as uncommon in ZvP as hydras currently are in ZvT.
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EPT
