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On October 24 2011 16:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
Be prepared to see GSL Code S Zerg only.
GSL will not switch over to HotS straight away, until they think it's balanced themselves/ community demand etc.
I am a bit concerned as to how HotS will be tested, will there be BETA tournaments again? It's not like how SC2 started as this is just an expansion. Pros will be busy concentrating on playing WoL tournaments why would they lose practice time just to test out HotS?
Or will this be an opportunity (advantageous) for some players to get ahead of the game by testing the game early?
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Burowed banelings can't be rushed, but they'll work a little bit like that.
Besides they're going to be a great "come back" unit like DTs. I'm behind 30 supply? In WoL I'd GG, in HotS I'd try to get 6 or 7 banelings under his army and blow everything up and macro.
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I like how you guys conveniently forget that vipers take a lot of gas by the way... And fungal doesn't root as long as it used to, remember? Rooting and dark swarm will just not be practical unless you're being ridiculously passive, for which there will be no excuse with the new recall ability.
Protoss players, it's time to stop whining when you lose against a composition that has twice as much gas poured into it. The recall ability will be so huge in PvZ, I don't know if you guys realise it. It probably won't be the silly deathball vs deathball matchup that it became in WoL, it's going to be much more dynamic and interesting. And if something is imbalanced they'll nerf it.
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On October 24 2011 17:24 shihido wrote:
I think the Replicator is really imba, no matter the cost.
Can you guess the implication of replicating a harvester unit then being able to make all and any of the opponent race's structures and hence units?
Also, it can just replicate your end games units and still have all the upgrades. whut whut whut... An ultralisk turned against zerg in a PvZ with the burrowed attack would be really crazy. Especially since the replicator is 200minerals, 200 gas. Much cheaper.
You can't replicate massive units and you can only replicate units that are in your sight.
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On October 24 2011 17:24 shihido wrote:
I think the Replicator is really imba, no matter the cost.
Can you guess the implication of replicating a harvester unit then being able to make all and any of the opponent race's structures and hence units?
Also, it can just replicate your end games units and still have all the upgrades. whut whut whut... An ultralisk turned against zerg in a PvZ with the burrowed attack would be really crazy. Especially since the replicator is 200minerals, 200 gas. Much cheaper.
They can't replicate massive units, specifically to ensure that it's always expensive. Replicating a worker unit is impractical. Replicators are at least midgame units. Do you really think starting an entirely new tech tree in the middle of the game is going to help you? Even if you get up the tech to make the one unit you want, you won't have any upgrades for it. While you're wasting all your money doing that, a competent opponent is building an army and coming to kill you. There are some potential uses like building a Terran expo for mules and access to repairs, but don't expect to see many pros sacrificing thousands of resources to build twice as many tech structures.
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Like the zerg stuff. Some of it may be imba, but at least Zerg will become alot more flexible with these additions. Unsure about that "siege" unit though, doubt it will be used much.
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I feel like the design of the tempest is flawed. Here is why: in PvZ the tempest should be the ultimate weapon against any kind of muta switch. But muta switch are muta switch which means the zerg player switch to muta to take his opponent off guard, and the zerg will most likely switch back to something else as soon as the mutas did their job. But, since the new corsair is a capital starship there is no way you can build it fast enough to counter the mutas switch : it's not designed to be reactiv.
Same against terran: you will most likely build the tempest to kill vikings, but since it s a capital starship it is will slow, unlike corsairs, and will be kitted by vikings like cattlebruisers. (they will even suck against muta harass).
In the end the tempest will not fulfill his role: there is a reason why anti air flying units are small and fast, they need to defend harass (need of mobility) and they need to counter tech switch (need fast build time and low tech).
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I like how everyone is complaining about balance while the beta hasn't even started yet. If everyone had seen the entire panel you would know that they also worry about darkswarm2 and the replicator. All these units and abilities are subject to changes and removal so please STFU and play WoL.
EDIT: TIL to spell replicator
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On October 24 2011 18:13 WhiteDog wrote:
I feel like the design of the tempest is flawed. Here is why: in PvZ the tempest should be the ultimate weapon against any kind of muta switch. But muta switch are muta switch which means the zerg player switch to muta to take his opponent off guard, and the zerg will most likely switch back to something else as soon as the mutas did their job. But, since the new corsair is a capital starship there is no way you can build it fast enough to counter the mutas switch : it's not designed to be reactiv.
Same against terran: you will most likely build the tempest to kill vikings, but since it s a capital starship it is will slow, unlike corsairs, and will be kitted by vikings like cattlebruisers. (they will even suck against muta harass).
In the end the tempest will not fulfill his role: there is a reason why anti air flying units are small and fast, they need to defend harass (need of mobility) and they need to counter tech switch (need fast build time and low tech).
The Tempest still has the same problem as the Carrier. Namely that if you go Colossus the T or Z will mass Vikings and Corruptors which already counter Carriers/Tempest. Also Protoss still have no air that can handle mass Corruptor or mass Vikings so I don't really see air toss taking off in HotS as an end-game strat.
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On October 24 2011 18:13 WhiteDog wrote:
I feel like the design of the tempest is flawed. Here is why: in PvZ the tempest should be the ultimate weapon against any kind of muta switch. But muta switch are muta switch which means the zerg player switch to muta to take his opponent off guard, and the zerg will most likely switch back to something else as soon as the mutas did their job. But, since the new corsair is a capital starship there is no way you can build it fast enough to counter the mutas switch : it's not designed to be reactiv.
Same against terran: you will most likely build the tempest to kill vikings, but since it s a capital starship it is will slow, unlike corsairs, and will be kitted by vikings like cattlebruisers. (they will even suck against muta harass).
In the end the tempest will not fulfill his role: there is a reason why anti air flying units are small and fast, they need to defend harass (need of mobility) and they need to counter tech switch (need fast build time and low tech).
That's not really too much of an issue. If the tempest hardcounters mutas as strongly as it appears, it won't really matter how long it takes to switch to so long as you don't outright die in the intervening time. Once it's on the field, you're probably fine, and it's not like protoss doesn't even now have plenty of options against mutas.
The real problem with the tempest is it brings absolutely nothing new to the table. Sure it's probably a pretty good unit, but if you asked a bunch of solid protoss what they needed before HotS, air-to-air anti light would not have been even in anyone's top ten. Why's that? Because we already freaking have that unit.
Phoenix already beat muta, and VRs already provide a powerful single-target air-to-ground. Blizzard's given us a "new" unit that's really just an amalgamation of two we already have, and in fact still have. And, at the same time, they removed the two stargate units which do not overlap with the tempest. I'm really not sure what the rationale was there, but it's pretty baffling.
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On October 24 2011 17:44 antsache wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 17:24 shihido wrote:
I think the Replicator is really imba, no matter the cost.
Can you guess the implication of replicating a harvester unit then being able to make all and any of the opponent race's structures and hence units?
Also, it can just replicate your end games units and still have all the upgrades. whut whut whut... An ultralisk turned against zerg in a PvZ with the burrowed attack would be really crazy. Especially since the replicator is 200minerals, 200 gas. Much cheaper.
They can't replicate massive units, specifically to ensure that it's always expensive. Replicating a worker unit is impractical. Replicators are at least midgame units. Do you really think starting an entirely new tech tree in the middle of the game is going to help you? Even if you get up the tech to make the one unit you want, you won't have any upgrades for it. While you're wasting all your money doing that, a competent opponent is building an army and coming to kill you. There are some potential uses like building a Terran expo for mules and access to repairs, but don't expect to see many pros sacrificing thousands of resources to build twice as many tech structures.
I'm thinking:
1. Replicate an SCV
2. Build Engineering bay
3. Build PFs instead of Nexi
4. No more trouble with drops
5. ???
6. Profit Win
Also:
SCVs can actually repair your units and buildings, so building a few of them can be helpful to keep your deathball alive. Think of 10 SCVs repairing your colossi faster than his vikings can kill it :p
As for the Tempest, i think it's ok, i just hate the attack effect of it, would rather see a lightning shoot from it and bounce to nearby targets instead of that ugly ball of electricity.
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While everyone is discussing the Oracle and Replicator, have you thought about moving Banelings and Ultra-Charge?
Without detection.... your whole Mineral lines and armies will get obliterated. And how do you defend against burried charging Ultras? You can't. We will see more Base defenses and (mobile) detections with these changes. Terran will be forced to build more raven or cut mules for scanning, Toss to build more than one observer and even place cannons. Zerg will use more spores and the new Viper.
Bear in mind that these are "ideas" of Blizzard. The strength and radius of the spells as well as the units themselves might get weakened, strengthened or even removed.
But I see where Blizzard is heading to. Will be a great almost new game! :-)
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On October 24 2011 18:32 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 17:44 antsache wrote:On October 24 2011 17:24 shihido wrote:
I think the Replicator is really imba, no matter the cost.
Can you guess the implication of replicating a harvester unit then being able to make all and any of the opponent race's structures and hence units?
Also, it can just replicate your end games units and still have all the upgrades. whut whut whut... An ultralisk turned against zerg in a PvZ with the burrowed attack would be really crazy. Especially since the replicator is 200minerals, 200 gas. Much cheaper.
They can't replicate massive units, specifically to ensure that it's always expensive. Replicating a worker unit is impractical. Replicators are at least midgame units. Do you really think starting an entirely new tech tree in the middle of the game is going to help you? Even if you get up the tech to make the one unit you want, you won't have any upgrades for it. While you're wasting all your money doing that, a competent opponent is building an army and coming to kill you. There are some potential uses like building a Terran expo for mules and access to repairs, but don't expect to see many pros sacrificing thousands of resources to build twice as many tech structures. I'm thinking: 1. Replicate an SCV 2. Build Engineering bay 3. Build PFs instead of Nexi 4. No more trouble with drops 5. ??? 6. Profit Win Also: SCVs can actually repair your units and buildings, so building a few of them can be helpful to keep your deathball alive. Think of 10 SCVs repairing your colossi faster than his vikings can kill it :p As for the Tempest, i think it's ok, i just hate the attack effect of it, would rather see a lightning shoot from it and bounce to nearby targets instead of that ugly ball of electricity.
Why go through all that trouble when you could build a couple cannons for less money and effort and/or use Arc Shield, which is basically free and is the mechanic they're clearly hoping Protoss will use for this purpose? (Assuming it's actually good) Building a replicator is 200/200. An engineering bay is 125/0. The PF itself is 150/150. That's a total cost of 475/350 on top of the base cost of the command center, and the PF can't hit air or detect. You could get three cannons and probably be just as well off with no gas cost, anti-air, and detection.
Like I said, I think getting a command center or two for repairs and MULEs may become a good idea, but that's hardly going to totally wreck the game's balance. Doing anything more complicated than that is going to be very expensive and provide little benefit. For damned sure, nobody's seriously going to consider working their way down another race's tech tree in the middle of a game if they want to win unless they're trying to catch someone by surprise, and even then they have to essentially pray that their opponent doesn't do anything for like five minutes.
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Does anyone have any idea why the reaper was changed?
I never recall any complaints about their anti-building attack being too powerful, and the regen ability seems really random.
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I'm a bit puzzled.... zergs have had a scouting problem vs terran. As even blizzard have admitted, the "flexibility" (unpredictability)of terran is sort of a game-design issue in some cases. In a lot of situations zerg get some stupid losses without the possibility to ever have scouted the terran= not very rewarding games for either player. And this is solved by removing the overseer, and adding more terran units?? Will overlord speed be hatchery tech now?
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On October 24 2011 18:02 Grend wrote:
Like the zerg stuff. Some of it may be imba, but at least Zerg will become alot more flexible with these additions. Unsure about that "siege" unit though, doubt it will be used much.
Yeah, lurkers weren't that big of a deal back in Brood War. 
I wonder how "anti-mech" the warhounds really are, because David Kim just flat out said they were anti-Protoss units. For Terran to have another unit that auto-destroys nearly everything about Protoss (first ghost, now warhound) makes me a bit wary for future TvP.
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On October 24 2011 19:07 Sarang wrote:
Does anyone have any idea why the reaper was changed?
I never recall any complaints about their anti-building attack being too powerful, and the regen ability seems really random.
I don't think it's so much an issue of it being too powerful now as it is that it may become too powerful with the new healing ability. I think they're worried that Reapers will be able to do too much damage to buildings in the early game if they can attack-retreat-attack over and over, never dying if micro'd properly. As it stands, Reapers can't realistically make it in and out of a base more than a couple times without getting a medivac in there to heal them up. I don't know how fast the healing ability is, but if it just takes like 30 seconds to get them back to full health once it kicks in, that could be a serious problem, especially for Protoss. Constant Pylon sniping could supply block them into the ground.
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I can't wait to pull an scv with a viper into the shredder field, allowing zerglings to get past the wall they thought was unpassable.
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On October 24 2011 19:25 Venomsflame wrote:
I can't wait to pull an scv with a viper into the shredder field, allowing zerglings to get past the wall they thought was unpassable.
New use for Neural Parasite, too.
Too bad Overseers are out... that'd be an interesting use of changelings, lol.
EDIT:
I guess that'll be a situation where it really depends on where they leave units for you to grab. Since Vipers pull units TO them, you'd have to put one inside the damage radius of the shredders to make that work. May be safer to use an infestor and cancel a Neural Parasite, IF you can get one of their units to do it with, of course, which may be tough if they're positioned well.
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konadora
Singapore66159 Posts
...the warhound makes SC2 look like CnC
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EPT
