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On October 24 2011 14:54 Belisarius wrote:
There's no way fungal and dark swarm are going to make it through the beta as-is, absolutely no way. If they do I'll straight up quit, probably. Not because it will make the game unwinnable, but because any dev team inclined to implement such a complete removal of a player's options is not a dev team I want to give money to.
Is your problem that it takes away all options for the defender? Because that's what FF and Fungal do right now.
It sounds like your problem is that it's totally broken, which is a dumb stance to take upon first seeing the abilities.
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On October 24 2011 14:09 XSmokeX wrote:
Anyone know if the ultralisk burrow charge is used only on targeted units, or can you select a spot and charge there?
In the demo, it was a click ability that targeted the ground, so you should be able to use it as a general increase in mobility as well.
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On October 24 2011 15:07 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 14:54 Belisarius wrote:
There's no way fungal and dark swarm are going to make it through the beta as-is, absolutely no way. If they do I'll straight up quit, probably. Not because it will make the game unwinnable, but because any dev team inclined to implement such a complete removal of a player's options is not a dev team I want to give money to. Is your problem that it takes away all options for the defender? Because that's what FF and Fungal do right now. It sounds like your problem is that it's totally broken, which is a dumb stance to take upon first seeing the abilities.
No, they don't. They take away plenty of options, arguably too many, but not all. FF you can still drop over, burrow under, and destroy with massives. Fungal you have far fewer options, but your casters can at least cast and your units shoot.
Fungal + dark swarm, you cannot cast, shoot, or move. You have no options, zero, except recall for toss. From the instant the two spells go down on the same area, every unit under there is utterly out of your hands and into your opponent's. The attacking force would barely even take losses in some instances.
Arguably recall is a fair solution for protoss, but that doesn't help T and it still doesn't change the design ethos inherent in giving those two spells to the one race.
I don't need to have done any more than see the abilities when I know that Z already has a damaging root and will now receive an area-localised disable. It's not rocket science to see the problems with that.
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On October 24 2011 15:15 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 15:07 fdsdfg wrote:On October 24 2011 14:54 Belisarius wrote:
There's no way fungal and dark swarm are going to make it through the beta as-is, absolutely no way. If they do I'll straight up quit, probably. Not because it will make the game unwinnable, but because any dev team inclined to implement such a complete removal of a player's options is not a dev team I want to give money to. Is your problem that it takes away all options for the defender? Because that's what FF and Fungal do right now. It sounds like your problem is that it's totally broken, which is a dumb stance to take upon first seeing the abilities. No, they don't. They take away plenty of options, arguably too many, but not all. FF you can still drop over, burrow under, and destroy with massives. Fungal you have far fewer options, but your casters can at least cast and your units shoot.
What if they don't have burrow and burrow-move? What if they're not roaches? Then you can't burrow under them. Your zerglings and hydras are 100% out of your control in this scenario.
What if you don't have casters? What if their range is less than the opponents'? Then fungal takes away 100% of control from you.
Obviously the two-spell-combination is different because it works on almost all units, but you make it sound like taking away a player's ability to control his army is this 100% undesirable situation. We have that situation all the time right now.
I don't need to have done any more than see the abilities when I know that Z already has a damaging root and will now receive an area-localised disable. It's not rocket science to see the problems with that.
It's easy to see the situations, you're the one calling them problems.
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On October 24 2011 15:15 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 15:07 fdsdfg wrote:On October 24 2011 14:54 Belisarius wrote:
There's no way fungal and dark swarm are going to make it through the beta as-is, absolutely no way. If they do I'll straight up quit, probably. Not because it will make the game unwinnable, but because any dev team inclined to implement such a complete removal of a player's options is not a dev team I want to give money to. Is your problem that it takes away all options for the defender? Because that's what FF and Fungal do right now. It sounds like your problem is that it's totally broken, which is a dumb stance to take upon first seeing the abilities. No, they don't. They take away plenty of options, arguably too many, but not all. FF you can still drop over, burrow under, and destroy with massives. Fungal you have far fewer options, but your casters can at least cast and your units shoot. Fungal + dark swarm, you cannot cast, shoot, or move. You have no options, zero, except recall for toss. From the instant the two spells go down on the same area, every unit under there is utterly out of your hands and into your opponent's. The attacking force would barely even take losses in some instances. Arguably recall is a fair solution for protoss, but that doesn't help T and it still doesn't change the design ethos inherent in giving those two spells to the one race.
recall is the only solution to fungal+darkswarm (assumedly with aclicked banelings due to sentries that cant forcefield) i could come up with after 2 hours of zoned out theorycrafting at work today. its not really a solution at all though, because fungal and dark swarm can simply be casted again meaning you can never really engage... please someone theorycraft me an answer here T_T
What if they don't have burrow and burrow-move? What if they're not roaches? Then you can't burrow under them. Your zerglings and hydras are 100% out of your control in this scenario.
What if you don't have casters? What if their range is less than the opponents'? Then fungal takes away 100% of control from you.
Obviously the two-spell-combination is different because it works on almost all units, but you make it sound like taking away a player's ability to control his army is this 100% undesirable situation. We have that situation all the time right now.
except burrow move and spellcasters are counters that can be made to alleviate this problem. we are talking about taking away a player's ability to control his army with no possible solutions, which is not a situation we currently have
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On October 24 2011 15:20 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 15:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 24 2011 15:07 fdsdfg wrote:On October 24 2011 14:54 Belisarius wrote:
There's no way fungal and dark swarm are going to make it through the beta as-is, absolutely no way. If they do I'll straight up quit, probably. Not because it will make the game unwinnable, but because any dev team inclined to implement such a complete removal of a player's options is not a dev team I want to give money to. Is your problem that it takes away all options for the defender? Because that's what FF and Fungal do right now. It sounds like your problem is that it's totally broken, which is a dumb stance to take upon first seeing the abilities. No, they don't. They take away plenty of options, arguably too many, but not all. FF you can still drop over, burrow under, and destroy with massives. Fungal you have far fewer options, but your casters can at least cast and your units shoot. What if they don't have burrow and burrow-move? What if they're not roaches? Then you can't burrow under them. Your zerglings and hydras are 100% out of your control in this scenario. What if you don't have casters? What if their range is less than the opponents'? Then fungal takes away 100% of control from you. Obviously the two-spell-combination is different because it works on almost all units, but you make it sound like taking away a player's ability to control his army is this 100% undesirable situation. We have that situation all the time right now.
We have that situation in specific early game scenarios that can be avoided if the Z chooses to do so. You don't have to attack into forcefields, and it's been repeatedly demonstrated that even things like FFing a Z's ramp (which is probably the most abusive use of FF out there) can be denied by keeping him away from your ramp.
Plus, if you know a toss is going sentry-heavy, you can get burrow, get drops. There is nothing I can tech to that will get me out of FG+BC (other than mass nexi). This is a late late game tech which completely denies control at the stage of the game when army control should be most critical.
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sometimes i wonder if any of the sc1 devs are still working at blizzard & on sc2
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Guys, obviously the answer to the Viper is to make Replicant Vipers and just pull the colossi back.
I think a good fix for the shredder would be to classify it as a building sorta so it couldn't be loaded up into the medivac.
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On October 24 2011 13:22 Jehct wrote:
Wouldn't infestor/viper ruin lategame PvZ assuming the abilities still work the way they do? I don't know what you'd do against Blinding Swarm/Fungal spam O_o
you use the replicant to do the same thing to them. only you have chargelots and they don't.
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On October 24 2011 15:26 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 15:20 fdsdfg wrote:On October 24 2011 15:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 24 2011 15:07 fdsdfg wrote:On October 24 2011 14:54 Belisarius wrote:
There's no way fungal and dark swarm are going to make it through the beta as-is, absolutely no way. If they do I'll straight up quit, probably. Not because it will make the game unwinnable, but because any dev team inclined to implement such a complete removal of a player's options is not a dev team I want to give money to. Is your problem that it takes away all options for the defender? Because that's what FF and Fungal do right now. It sounds like your problem is that it's totally broken, which is a dumb stance to take upon first seeing the abilities. No, they don't. They take away plenty of options, arguably too many, but not all. FF you can still drop over, burrow under, and destroy with massives. Fungal you have far fewer options, but your casters can at least cast and your units shoot. What if they don't have burrow and burrow-move? What if they're not roaches? Then you can't burrow under them. Your zerglings and hydras are 100% out of your control in this scenario. What if you don't have casters? What if their range is less than the opponents'? Then fungal takes away 100% of control from you. Obviously the two-spell-combination is different because it works on almost all units, but you make it sound like taking away a player's ability to control his army is this 100% undesirable situation. We have that situation all the time right now. We have that situation in specific early game scenarios that can be avoided if the Z chooses to do so. You don't have to attack into forcefields, and it's been repeatedly demonstrated that even things like FFing a Z's ramp (which is probably the most abusive use of FF out there) can be denied by keeping him away from your ramp. Plus, if you know a toss is going sentry-heavy, you can get burrow, get drops. FG+BC is a situation in which the abuse only gets stronger the later the game goes. There is nothing I can tech to to beat it. The later the game goes, the more casters Z will have, the more easily he can blanket my army. And he can take the fight to me; I don't have the option of avoiding him or delaying him until I have tech that can deal with his strategy. He can come combo my face whenever he likes once he has those units. Neither is a defensive spell.
Wouldn't your solution simply be spreading out your army so it doesn't form a single ball? Basically the same way T/Z beat Zealot-heavy vortex toilets today.
I see your point that there's thing that get around the spells I mentioned, but remember you're talking about a two-caster combination, with two spells that in all likelihood will not outrange feedback. Your answer will probably be to keep your units spread out and quick on the feedback if nothing changes, and it would probably end up in a balanced situation there.
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On October 24 2011 15:30 KaBoom300 wrote:
you use the replicant to do the same thing to them. only you have chargelots and they don't.
On October 24 2011 15:28 Jerubaal wrote:
Guys, obviously the answer to the Viper is to make Replicant Vipers and just pull the colossi back.
Can we knock off the trolling...
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On October 24 2011 15:33 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 15:30 KaBoom300 wrote:
you use the replicant to do the same thing to them. only you have chargelots and they don't.
Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 15:28 Jerubaal wrote:
Guys, obviously the answer to the Viper is to make Replicant Vipers and just pull the colossi back.
Can we knock off the trolling...
im not trolling i was serious. chargelots + dark swarm + fungal growth = gg to whoever is quicker
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On October 24 2011 15:30 KaBoom300 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 13:22 Jehct wrote:
Wouldn't infestor/viper ruin lategame PvZ assuming the abilities still work the way they do? I don't know what you'd do against Blinding Swarm/Fungal spam O_o you use the replicant to do the same thing to them. only you have chargelots and they don't.
I'm noticing an undesirable side-effect of the replicant.
From here on in, whenever toss suggests a unit is difficult to deal with, the response will always be: just use it yourself, at twice the cost.
Mirror matchups are always balanced, right?
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On October 24 2011 15:33 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 15:30 KaBoom300 wrote:On October 24 2011 13:22 Jehct wrote:
Wouldn't infestor/viper ruin lategame PvZ assuming the abilities still work the way they do? I don't know what you'd do against Blinding Swarm/Fungal spam O_o you use the replicant to do the same thing to them. only you have chargelots and they don't. I'm noticing an undesirable side-effect of the replicant. From here on in, whenever toss suggests a unit is difficult to deal with, the response will always be: just use it yourself, at twice the cost. Mirror matchups are always balanced, right?
It already started in this thread with "use it with chargelots! Zerg doesn't have chargelots, bro."
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On October 24 2011 15:33 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 15:30 KaBoom300 wrote:On October 24 2011 13:22 Jehct wrote:
Wouldn't infestor/viper ruin lategame PvZ assuming the abilities still work the way they do? I don't know what you'd do against Blinding Swarm/Fungal spam O_o you use the replicant to do the same thing to them. only you have chargelots and they don't. I'm noticing an undesirable side-effect of the replicant. From here on in, whenever toss suggests a unit is difficult to deal with, the response will always be: just use it yourself, at twice the cost. Mirror matchups are always balanced, right?
i would say this is true but the aoe units of the other races compliment the death ball so well i don't see it being a problem, but rather an advantage, for toss
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On October 24 2011 15:33 KaBoom300 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 15:33 fdsdfg wrote:On October 24 2011 15:30 KaBoom300 wrote:
you use the replicant to do the same thing to them. only you have chargelots and they don't.
On October 24 2011 15:28 Jerubaal wrote:
Guys, obviously the answer to the Viper is to make Replicant Vipers and just pull the colossi back.
Can we knock off the trolling... im not trolling i was serious. chargelots + dark swarm + fungal growth = gg to whoever is quicker
If you were serious, do you really think the answer to every problem a Protoss player runs into is 'just replicate it'?
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On October 24 2011 15:40 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 15:33 KaBoom300 wrote:On October 24 2011 15:33 fdsdfg wrote:On October 24 2011 15:30 KaBoom300 wrote:
you use the replicant to do the same thing to them. only you have chargelots and they don't.
On October 24 2011 15:28 Jerubaal wrote:
Guys, obviously the answer to the Viper is to make Replicant Vipers and just pull the colossi back.
Can we knock off the trolling... im not trolling i was serious. chargelots + dark swarm + fungal growth = gg to whoever is quicker If you were serious, do you really think the answer to every problem a Protoss player runs into is 'just replicate it'?
yes, yes i do. which is why the replicant wont make it through most likely alpha, but beta at the latest
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On October 24 2011 15:40 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 15:33 KaBoom300 wrote:On October 24 2011 15:33 fdsdfg wrote:On October 24 2011 15:30 KaBoom300 wrote:
you use the replicant to do the same thing to them. only you have chargelots and they don't.
On October 24 2011 15:28 Jerubaal wrote:
Guys, obviously the answer to the Viper is to make Replicant Vipers and just pull the colossi back.
Can we knock off the trolling... im not trolling i was serious. chargelots + dark swarm + fungal growth = gg to whoever is quicker If you were serious, do you really think the answer to every problem a Protoss player runs into is 'just replicate it'?
That's Blizzard's stance apparently.
I would be very surprised though if they let you yank 6 colossi the same way they used to NP them without nerfs.
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On October 24 2011 15:40 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 15:33 KaBoom300 wrote:On October 24 2011 15:33 fdsdfg wrote:On October 24 2011 15:30 KaBoom300 wrote:
you use the replicant to do the same thing to them. only you have chargelots and they don't.
On October 24 2011 15:28 Jerubaal wrote:
Guys, obviously the answer to the Viper is to make Replicant Vipers and just pull the colossi back.
Can we knock off the trolling... im not trolling i was serious. chargelots + dark swarm + fungal growth = gg to whoever is quicker If you were serious, do you really think the answer to every problem a Protoss player runs into is 'just replicate it'?
based on how protoss hots changes look it seems like we will spend the majority of the beta using other races units
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On October 24 2011 15:32 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 15:26 Belisarius wrote:On October 24 2011 15:20 fdsdfg wrote:On October 24 2011 15:15 Belisarius wrote:On October 24 2011 15:07 fdsdfg wrote:On October 24 2011 14:54 Belisarius wrote:
There's no way fungal and dark swarm are going to make it through the beta as-is, absolutely no way. If they do I'll straight up quit, probably. Not because it will make the game unwinnable, but because any dev team inclined to implement such a complete removal of a player's options is not a dev team I want to give money to. Is your problem that it takes away all options for the defender? Because that's what FF and Fungal do right now. It sounds like your problem is that it's totally broken, which is a dumb stance to take upon first seeing the abilities. No, they don't. They take away plenty of options, arguably too many, but not all. FF you can still drop over, burrow under, and destroy with massives. Fungal you have far fewer options, but your casters can at least cast and your units shoot. What if they don't have burrow and burrow-move? What if they're not roaches? Then you can't burrow under them. Your zerglings and hydras are 100% out of your control in this scenario. What if you don't have casters? What if their range is less than the opponents'? Then fungal takes away 100% of control from you. Obviously the two-spell-combination is different because it works on almost all units, but you make it sound like taking away a player's ability to control his army is this 100% undesirable situation. We have that situation all the time right now. We have that situation in specific early game scenarios that can be avoided if the Z chooses to do so. You don't have to attack into forcefields, and it's been repeatedly demonstrated that even things like FFing a Z's ramp (which is probably the most abusive use of FF out there) can be denied by keeping him away from your ramp. Plus, if you know a toss is going sentry-heavy, you can get burrow, get drops. FG+BC is a situation in which the abuse only gets stronger the later the game goes. There is nothing I can tech to to beat it. The later the game goes, the more casters Z will have, the more easily he can blanket my army. And he can take the fight to me; I don't have the option of avoiding him or delaying him until I have tech that can deal with his strategy. He can come combo my face whenever he likes once he has those units. Neither is a defensive spell. Wouldn't your solution simply be spreading out your army so it doesn't form a single ball? Basically the same way T/Z beat Zealot-heavy vortex toilets today. I see your point that there's thing that get around the spells I mentioned, but remember you're talking about a two-caster combination, with two spells that in all likelihood will not outrange feedback. Your answer will probably be to keep your units spread out and quick on the feedback if nothing changes, and it would probably end up in a balanced situation there.
It's not really about balance, I did say that in my initial post, more or less. It's the ethos. There are things you can do to mitigate it, sure, but even if blizzard somehow gets it to the point where winrates are 50/50, it strips the potential for any kind of micro wars in late game engagements.
It's reduced to: Did i catch him with his pants down?
Yes: I win.
No: Maybe I don't win, but it's still decided from the point my spells are cast.
Now, that's true of an awful lot of abilities that can be "countered" by splitting, like FG alone, EMP and vortex, but FG/BC is by far the most obnoxious example so far. I do think these things reveal a deeper-level design preference of Blizzard's, but that doesn't stop me hating it.
Also, in this case, even if i spread my army so that it can't all be blanketed, huge chunks of that army are going to be non-combative and taking damage no matter what I do, while my active combat units die to the full force of yours.
It's actually a bit ironic that you bring up vortex, as Z have been complaining about archon toilets for this exact reason since forever. As soon as the vortex goes down and the archons go in, you know that whatever was in there is dead, and whatever is not in there is now fighting outnumbered. Except vortex is a one- or at best two- time spell, and you can do things like put mass blings in the vortex if you have to. And now vortex is gone, and you've been given this to get your revenge.
HTs are fair enough and will have to be played out, but HT vs infestor already exists, and feedback hasn't yet made FG useless against toss by any stretch of the imagination. I don't really think that adding more targets to have to feedback before the spells go down will swing things in protoss' favour, especially when one of those spells is now a silence.
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EPT
