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On October 23 2011 19:56 NeWnAr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 19:09 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On October 23 2011 18:59 Daralii wrote:On October 23 2011 18:58 nyshak wrote:
The Warhound may make things a lot more interesting in TvT. As a Zerg I just hope that their splash will be significantly weaker than the ones of a Thor, assuming there will be more Warhounds than WoL-Thors around. Otherwise I'm afraid Mutas are out of ZvT.
The warhound's range is apparently less than that of a thor, so mutas should still be fine if you magic box them. Shredders are probably going to be more of a muta deterrent if they can still hit air come release. I doubt that, it's not like you could chuck them in the mineral line or anything. Dude you can. Chuck 2 in the mineral line so that once you pull out your SCVs you can shred the mutas to pieces. And one more thing. Doesn't Battle Hellion=Firebat???? Hasn't anyone realized that HotS Terran is turning into the Single Player compaign Terran in WoL? I mean, Warhound is practically a Goliath and the new Thor's Tychus' pet Odin?
You mean Broodwar.
And yeah i agree, the new units are really just substitutes for the ones in broodwar.
viper -> defiler
warhound -> goliath
shredder -> spidermines
tempest -> crosair (kinda)
and so on.
I like this change though =) more epic games incoming!
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On October 23 2011 21:38 berimbau wrote:
Something you guys arent really considering with the oracle is that it looks like it can be used really well with phoenix. Even if the mineral lock ability isnt that great (i actually think it looks alright), the building lock ability could be great with phoenix. at the moment the main issue with phoenix harass is static defense completely shuts it down unless you have a tonne of them. oracles allow you to disable the turrets/spores/cannons and freely pick up and pick off workers with phoenix. If oracles are fast enough to get in and out without being killed by stimmed marines or whatever, and if the energy cost is reasonable, this could work really well.
This just shows how warped Toss players minds have become by shit design for 2 years
Harass options for Protoss
1) Build Oracle
2) Build Phoenix
3) Build another Phoenix because this awful unit can't shoot down
4) Gather energy
5) Fly to mineral line
6) Cast mining bubble/phase out static D
7) Cast graviton beam on any ranged attackers nearby
8) Cast graviton beam on harvesters
9) Destroy a small handful of workers
10) use useless air fleet to scout and hope/pray they build an air force too
11) if not, gather energy repeat 1-2 min later
12) Cry
Terran/Zerg?
1) Build Muta/Research Drop/Banelings/Infestors/Ling runby/Nydus/etc/etc.
Obvious exaggeration is obvious but my point stands.
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Actually as zerg you only need to research drop and ovie speed. You can drop pretty much any unit you want, they all do good damage to workers. Banelings are the best at it ofc xd
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Ive written that in the other thread also, but i really feel they should not bring the Tempest in HotS. If they want better antiair for protoss than they should add a fleet beacon upgrade for the phoenix to let them do splash or to be little more corsairish/tempestish. The carrier could take the free spot again, but with tweaked micromechanics and buffed to a decent viablility. If that just doesnt work out to give the spot to some other unit that fills multible purposes instead of just another anti(light)air.
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I think hard unit counters are bullshit. You should be able to beat a supposed counter with the unit that's weak against it, like marines vs banelings. The design team saying that the tempest was made to take out 40-60 mutalisks at a time is such bullshit. Hard counters just shouldn't exist; previously you could magic box the Thors, but apparently the splash is too large to do that with tempests. And I love how they didn't want to add to the deathball philosophy for protoss.. so they gave them an anti-everything-in-the-air unit, which was basically the only thing the deathball was missing.
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I like all of the new units except the Protoss units and the Shredder...but they only need to make the Shredder only hit ground imo...but the Protoss units look completely fucked.
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On October 23 2011 23:18 ZappaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 19:56 NeWnAr wrote:On October 23 2011 19:09 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On October 23 2011 18:59 Daralii wrote:On October 23 2011 18:58 nyshak wrote:
The Warhound may make things a lot more interesting in TvT. As a Zerg I just hope that their splash will be significantly weaker than the ones of a Thor, assuming there will be more Warhounds than WoL-Thors around. Otherwise I'm afraid Mutas are out of ZvT.
The warhound's range is apparently less than that of a thor, so mutas should still be fine if you magic box them. Shredders are probably going to be more of a muta deterrent if they can still hit air come release. I doubt that, it's not like you could chuck them in the mineral line or anything. Dude you can. Chuck 2 in the mineral line so that once you pull out your SCVs you can shred the mutas to pieces. And one more thing. Doesn't Battle Hellion=Firebat???? Hasn't anyone realized that HotS Terran is turning into the Single Player compaign Terran in WoL? I mean, Warhound is practically a Goliath and the new Thor's Tychus' pet Odin? You mean Broodwar. And yeah i agree, the new units are really just substitutes for the ones in broodwar. viper -> defiler warhound -> goliath shredder -> spidermines tempest -> crosair (kinda) and so on.
yeah everything is just a substitute... 
BW Marines, Hydralisks, dragoon are all just WC2 archers...
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On October 23 2011 22:54 ToastieNL wrote:
There's another POV you seem to forget.
Zerg likes/needs an early lead to stabilize in the mid- game so they can throw money at their opponents: cost ineffective units.
Zerg mid - late game gets buffed enormously, so you need less of a lead, so maybe you can make 3 more crawlers and be fine?
It's just the supergreedy style of Zerg that is weak early on. Agressive Zergs are never really threatened...
Good point, let's hope that's the case. That the new changes make zerg more cost-effective in mid/late game, which allow them to focus less on economy in the early game.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On October 23 2011 23:34 Match wrote:
I think hard unit counters are bullshit. You should be able to beat a supposed counter with the unit that's weak against it, like marines vs banelings. The design team saying that the tempest was made to take out 40-60 mutalisks at a time is such bullshit. Hard counters just shouldn't exist; previously you could magic box the Thors, but apparently the splash is too large to do that with tempests. And I love how they didn't want to add to the deathball philosophy for protoss.. so they gave them an anti-everything-in-the-air unit, which was basically the only thing the deathball was missing.
40-60 mutalisks at a time
Yes, but it's the same as a thor. If you spread your air units out, that won't happen.
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Warhound --> Goliath (+ anti-armor)
It's not really anti-armor, just anti-mech. It will likely suck against all zerg ground units.
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Protoss late game seems nerfed in relation to the other races, as terran and zerg gain stronger late game units while the protoss don't. On the other hand, protoss harass is buffed, so they will likely become more of an harassing race.
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Does anyone feels like the WarHound kinda looks like a marauder but in a bigger size + anti air attack ?
I feel like the anti-mech attack are almost too similar :x
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On October 23 2011 22:53 teamsolid wrote:
Anyone else notice how most of the HoTS units are just variations of BW units/ability that got removed in WoL?
Warhound --> Goliath (+ anti-armor)
Shredder --> Spider mine (without cloaking)
Battle-hellion --> Firebat (except from factory)
Tempest --> Corsair (except capital ship)
Replicator --> Dark archon
Viper --> Defiler (+ death grip)
Swarm host --> Lurker (merged with BL)
by saying they are "just" variations on BW units, you are really oversimplifying things. Like shredders contra spider mine. They fulfill the same basic role, but there's a huge strategical element to spider mines that just doesn't seem to be there with the shredder - like forcing detection and dragging mines.
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Hopefully they turn up the splash on the warhound a little bit. The thor could have its microscopic splash range because it did so much damage and had 10 range, but a cheaper unit will need actual splash. It's interesting that HotS in some one way is taking a very "broodwar" approach in that it's adding units with aoe anti-air to deal with mass mutalisk, just like BW did.
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On October 23 2011 23:47 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 23:34 Match wrote:
I think hard unit counters are bullshit. You should be able to beat a supposed counter with the unit that's weak against it, like marines vs banelings. The design team saying that the tempest was made to take out 40-60 mutalisks at a time is such bullshit. Hard counters just shouldn't exist; previously you could magic box the Thors, but apparently the splash is too large to do that with tempests. And I love how they didn't want to add to the deathball philosophy for protoss.. so they gave them an anti-everything-in-the-air unit, which was basically the only thing the deathball was missing. 40-60 mutalisks at a time Yes, but it's the same as a thor. If you spread your air units out, that won't happen.
Well at least from presentation video it looked like splash is very huge, when one of tempest shot final shot most mutas died in very huge radius., which is kind of stupid imo.
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On October 23 2011 23:47 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 23:34 Match wrote:
I think hard unit counters are bullshit. You should be able to beat a supposed counter with the unit that's weak against it, like marines vs banelings. The design team saying that the tempest was made to take out 40-60 mutalisks at a time is such bullshit. Hard counters just shouldn't exist; previously you could magic box the Thors, but apparently the splash is too large to do that with tempests. And I love how they didn't want to add to the deathball philosophy for protoss.. so they gave them an anti-everything-in-the-air unit, which was basically the only thing the deathball was missing. 40-60 mutalisks at a time Yes, but it's the same as a thor. If you spread your air units out, that won't happen.
Magic box won't work with that kind of aoe. You want to spread out 40-60 mutas manually? Also this will destroy mass corruptors as well probably. You think you'll have the time to spread out corruptors while microing around forcefields, fungaling, injecting, and making more units all during the same battle while protoss can potentially just a move with a few ff thrown in?
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I hope they put a lot of thought into these units, because they are going to look very silly if they have to take a few of them out a couple years from now to balance for Legacy of the Void.
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On October 24 2011 00:01 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
Magic box won't work with that kind of aoe. You want to spread out 40-60 mutas manually? Also this will destroy mass corruptors as well probably. You think you'll have the time to spread out corruptors while microing around forcefields, fungaling, injecting, and making more units all during the same battle while protoss can potentially just a move with a few ff thrown in?
In it's current iteration the tempest does 20 or 22 damage (don't remember which) in an aoe with a long attack time. If terrans can split marines to counter banelings, zergs can split corruptors to counter this.
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im imagining all the cannon rushes i could do....
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I like the zerg changes and units and the terran units except for the shredder seem decent as well (although right now it seems like the helion would be waaaaaay to cost effective lategame) but the race that needed new stuff the most got screwed it seems.
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EPT
