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On October 23 2011 14:59 AutomatonOmega wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 14:54 Justicejimzor wrote:
Calling it now, proxy nexus recalls entire protoss army to enemy main :D Vast majority of the time this functions as a glorified proxy pylon. Problem is, 400 minerals, gotta wait the entire length of time for the warp-in and then gotta wait for 75 energy on said nexus. Maybe if you're going to literally steal his natural. Proly won't work vZ and definitely won't vT. Dunno whether it would or not vP.
actually its completely viable in the current metagame, i think it makes pvp imbalanced tho.
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I just don't see why nobody likes the new Terran units.
Terran looks like it's gunna be amazing to watch in TvP assuming they scrap the Marauder (which i think would be dumb if they didn't looking at this new cool looking mech warhound unit.) and the Hellion transformation is pretty sick as far as Mech TvP is going to go.
The shredder in particular looks absolutely amazing and an epic way to add a spider mien mechanic without the spider mine itself. I can think of thousands of ways to use it, even like a spider mine itself.
Slow pushing with siege tanks and hellions and warhound with the shredders inching closer and closer always staying out of range of your own units.
(I think mainly nobody lieks the new Terran untis because Terrans in sc2 just want to mass marauders all day :/)
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On October 23 2011 14:40 nazdrovie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 14:26 Paper117 wrote:
By opening, I meant they had a flawed unit that was being scrapped, that they instead reworked. Zerg had an equivalent opening I guess in reworking ultras as a flawed unit, but they reworked it in a different way. Yes, it's an addition of a hero thor to their arsenal, but it also comes with the removal of the current thor. In that regard it's a one for one trade, not actually adding units to the terran arsenal. If anything, it removes a unit from conventional play, as the thor will not likely be used as often. The warhound is an additional unit that also reworks the thor, but it's inclusion along with the shredder don't make the Terran kit relatively any bigger, as the other races also got new units No because the thor was already replaced by the warhound which is arguably way better than the thor, they don't need two replacements for the price of one unit do they?
I guess if you consider the new thor and the warhound as two entirely new units, then that's 3 new units with the shredder at the cost of a single unit, the old thor. That's two more units; one of which seems to not be intended for serious play.
For zerg, two units were added, and one removed. That's one more unit.
For Protoss, three more units were added, and two removed. That's one more unit.
There isn't much discrepancy here, though Terran already has a larger collection of units. There's nothing inherently broken with that, I don't think. That's just more variety between the races.
I don't think it makes sense to measure the efficacy or fairness of a unit rework by the amount of units in that role before with the amount of units after. Just because the thor was basically turned into two units doesn't necessarily make the new set up better. The number shouldn't matter. If it did, you might say that the creation of the medivac was a bad thing, because it combined two units into one. The new thor set up looks better because one of the new units was specifically designed to be better than the old thor. It shouldn't be an issue that the warhound is way better than the thor, it was supposed to be. If not, why bother changing anything?
In addition, the only real similarity with the hero thor and the old thor is probably just the name and the model. It's cosmetic. The cost/ tech/ durability/ abilities/ weapons/ role are different. If they created a new looking unit with a new name, we wouldn't even be considering that unit as a "replacement" for the thor, though it would be the same unit as the hero thor otherwise.
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On October 23 2011 15:10 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 14:59 AutomatonOmega wrote:On October 23 2011 14:54 Justicejimzor wrote:
Calling it now, proxy nexus recalls entire protoss army to enemy main :D Vast majority of the time this functions as a glorified proxy pylon. Problem is, 400 minerals, gotta wait the entire length of time for the warp-in and then gotta wait for 75 energy on said nexus. Maybe if you're going to literally steal his natural. Proly won't work vZ and definitely won't vT. Dunno whether it would or not vP. actually its completely viable in the current metagame, i think it makes pvp imbalanced tho.
The current current metagame or the post-HotS current metagame? :p
We don't really have the latter to work with atm. Scouting to prevent this from happening will be pretty key, but even at that it'll just open the door for later attacks rather than be a super-viable means of applying pressure, Protoss already has a viable means of pressure application via the warp-in mechanic.
Yah, a nexus lets you teleport things like colossi/immortals/air units/etc over also, but you can only realistically port them to the proxy nexus once every what, 1:15? I guess the chief merit there is they can protect your production facilities while waiting for the teleport to come.
And this all assumes your opponent isn't on the ball and lets you complete the building, which might end up being 400 minerals of dead weight.
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On October 23 2011 15:15 AutomatonOmega wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 15:10 ComaDose wrote:On October 23 2011 14:59 AutomatonOmega wrote:On October 23 2011 14:54 Justicejimzor wrote:
Calling it now, proxy nexus recalls entire protoss army to enemy main :D Vast majority of the time this functions as a glorified proxy pylon. Problem is, 400 minerals, gotta wait the entire length of time for the warp-in and then gotta wait for 75 energy on said nexus. Maybe if you're going to literally steal his natural. Proly won't work vZ and definitely won't vT. Dunno whether it would or not vP. actually its completely viable in the current metagame, i think it makes pvp imbalanced tho. The current current metagame or the post-HotS current metagame? :p We don't really have the latter to work with atm. Scouting to prevent this from happening will be pretty key, but even at that it'll just open the door for later attacks rather than be a super-viable means of applying pressure, Protoss already has a viable means of pressure application via the warp-in mechanic. Yah, a nexus lets you teleport things like colossi/immortals/air units/etc over also, but you can only realistically port them to the proxy nexus once every what, 1:15? I guess the chief merit there is they can protect your production facilities while waiting for the teleport to come. And this all assumes your opponent isn't on the ball and lets you complete the building, which might end up being 400 minerals of dead weight.
its completely standard in the post hots release it lets you get so many probes (you leave them all by the nexus so not to give it away) so when you expand bam your saturated. its how they balanced terran bunker banks. and when you recall your army they don't get tired from walking. walking is for chumps, i proxy nexus on the ladder now just to practice.+ Show Spoiler +also nexus can now burrow charge while cloaked so they can turn into planetary fortresses which is having a huge effect on the theorycrafting metagame.
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On October 23 2011 15:05 AutomatonOmega wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 15:03 GloryOfAiur wrote:
So is Swarm Host like a cloaked Brood Lord except it does not attack? More like a burrowed Infestor that produces a bunch of high DPS melee units at set intervals for free rather than costing energy. They don't, however, move while burrowed. Not sure if they make more than two locusts each or not, I'd have to double check that. Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 15:04 carloselcoco wrote:On October 22 2011 10:56 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On October 22 2011 10:42 Disquiet wrote:On October 22 2011 10:37 sc2holar wrote:On October 22 2011 10:34 Disquiet wrote:
Why don't people like the protoss + terran units, I think they are cool, I especially like the reaper change and turning the thor into a true super unit. Is it just because there are more zergs on TL? No, its because the protoss changes are underwhelming and the terran stuff way to powerful considering what terran already has. Ah so its a balance commentary(protoss underwhelming because they seen as weak atm, terran improvements hated because they are seen as OP right now). I wish people wouldn't vote like this when havn't even played the beta yet, vote on concept. I personally love the new units, the tempest + the oracle work together like a superpowered corsair. I also think the replicant will be incredibly powerful in the right hands. Imagine using a pdd against maruaders? Thats fun until they emp it with one of their 10 ghosts. Replicate one ghost, EMP the 10 enemy ghosts. GG This, to me, highlights the biggest problem with the replicant. Yeah, it can be anything it can see, supposedly reduced in its effectiveness by its cost (Which really is high) but, there are reasons classes of unit belong to one race but not others, certain ridiculously overpowered combinations like toss aoe + infestors are just sick and well worth the cost. The end result would possibly be simply not to ever make infestors vs Protoss as a form of preemptive tactical denial, and that's sorta counterintuitive IMO.
Exactly why the MU for Protoss will be so much fun. Lots of tense moments more than just fire storms, dodge EMPs, FF up army, roast enemy, collect win.
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Have they said anything about Zerg detection prior to Viper? Does Viper require Spire? I've heard people saying Viper requires spire which basically means Zerg will have no answer for cloaked units early on without going mass spores, is this true?
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On October 23 2011 17:00 Disastorm wrote:
Have they said anything about Zerg detection prior to Viper? Does Viper require Spire? I've heard people saying Viper requires spire which basically means Zerg will have no answer for cloaked units early on without going mass spores, is this true?
Viper only requires Lair I think, not a Spire
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Burrow charge
The burrow charge ability is horrible, the only thing keeping Ultras from being OP vs Terran is choke points and stutter stepping marauders. In a straight up fight they always been OP.
Now when you cannot longer micro against them they will break the matchup, especially since you will only be able to build one Thor, and none of the new units are good vs Ultras.
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While they did make some really nice units.. most of them.. well I feel as if they're trying too hard to make them technical/tactical type of units. I'm gonna call it now and say most of them are going to be removed for the next expansion/maybe earlier. Also when they said that Terran had trouble with zealots... I just thought and have been thinking this for a while "why don't Terran players just use blue flame helions? I'm sure you won't need THAT many and they're not expensive either and they would just demolish the heavy zealot play that is giving Terran trouble.
ALSO ABOUT TIME THEY INTRODUCE HYDRALISK SPEED SHIT. I still think the ultralisk could've been way better with a speed upgrade as well but I guess the burrow is more flashy and could provide a better surround mechanic since I'm sure you might be able to control where they appear when they unburrow.
I absolutely dislike what they're doing with the Thor.. hero units do not belong in SC at all. That new lurker/map position type Zerg unit just... nvm I'll leave my comments aside and say that it's a poor introduction to the race.
I'm sad about the Carrier removal even though they said "for now" but then again they didn't have a place in the Protoss army anymore with the really nasty counters in the game. Anyway here are my thoughts so far~ <3
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Time to start practicing my Terran, they seem so much cooler now!
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On October 23 2011 14:13 Nash wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 14:03 YoungNV wrote:
Terran:
+2 new units (Shredder, Warhound)
-0 existing units
+ 5 new abilities/buffs [Thor, Hellion, Ghost (cloak), BC (boost), Reaper (regen)]
= Net gain of 7
Protoss:
+3 new units (Tempest, Oracle, Replicant)
-2 existing units (Carrier, Mothership)
+2 new abilities/buffs (Nexus: Arc Shield, Recall)
= Net gain of 3
Zerg:
+2 new units (Viper, Swarm Host)
-1 existing unit (Overseer)
+4 new abilities/buffs [Corruptor (siphon), Ultra (charge), Baneling (tunnel), Hydra (speed)]
= Net gain of 5 haha most ridiculous counting ive ever seen. why not count the added abilities to protoss? ghost added ability... really? the other buffs are MINISCULE but still counted as 1. completely ridiculous.
Because they are none, that's why he doesn't count it.
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On October 23 2011 17:26 atavus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 14:13 Nash wrote:On October 23 2011 14:03 YoungNV wrote:
Terran:
+2 new units (Shredder, Warhound)
-0 existing units
+ 5 new abilities/buffs [Thor, Hellion, Ghost (cloak), BC (boost), Reaper (regen)]
= Net gain of 7
Protoss:
+3 new units (Tempest, Oracle, Replicant)
-2 existing units (Carrier, Mothership)
+2 new abilities/buffs (Nexus: Arc Shield, Recall)
= Net gain of 3
Zerg:
+2 new units (Viper, Swarm Host)
-1 existing unit (Overseer)
+4 new abilities/buffs [Corruptor (siphon), Ultra (charge), Baneling (tunnel), Hydra (speed)]
= Net gain of 5 haha most ridiculous counting ive ever seen. why not count the added abilities to protoss? ghost added ability... really? the other buffs are MINISCULE but still counted as 1. completely ridiculous. Because they are none, that's why he doesn't count it.
As of yet, anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if they plan to do something with the immortal, since it was on the chopping block with the overseer.
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On October 23 2011 17:12 MockHamill wrote:
Burrow charge
The burrow charge ability is horrible, the only thing keeping Ultras from being OP vs Terran is choke points and stutter stepping marauders. In a straight up fight they always been OP.
Now when you cannot longer micro against them they will break the matchup, especially since you will only be able to build one Thor, and none of the new units are good vs Ultras.
Your specific example is vs Terran, who's traditionally had even less trouble dealing with ultras to date than any other match-up. Ghosts still trounce them, marauders will still do a lot of damage against them, hell battle hellions can eat their hits. Plus you can always put a couple shredders at a choke with overlapping tank radii covering their approach.
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On October 23 2011 17:15 Sephy90 wrote:
ALSO ABOUT TIME THEY INTRODUCE HYDRALISK SPEED SHIT. I still think the ultralisk could've been way better with a speed upgrade as well but I guess the burrow is more flashy and could provide a better surround mechanic since I'm sure you might be able to control where they appear when they unburrow.
The ultralisk did have a speed upgrade, like in BW. It was baked in during the beta. Honestly, their speed is okay -- they're as fast as speedbanes.
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Terran:
I like all the new terran units and changes and they adress several issues terran had.
I like the removal of the Thror and that its muta defense ability was transfered to a new unit that can also be used against siegetanks, maybe getting a new perspective to TvT
Zerg:
The Viper seems to be very very powerfull if not overpowered oO.
The groundbroodlord seems to be very weak and disappointing from what I saw.
Protoss:
I like the oracle, its easy to use, fly it in from an unprotected side or disable a turret, minerals blocked with very little micro or losses. It is very easy to use and seems to be low cost.
Depends on how long the block mineral effect is holding and how much firepower you need to free the minerals.
The tempest is just boring, a buff to phoeinx AA or a carrier buff would have been more appealing.
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So, the Oracle is probably the worst harassing unit in the game, not killing workers is bad enough, but the opponent can even DESTROY the "forcefields", which is horrible, i thought it would like last for 20 seconds and then destroy itself, but that way your opponent just needs to destroy it and you've done ZERO damage.
Think about dropping Zealots: you kill a few workers and the opponent needs to pull his worker as well, so the mining-time damage is the same AND you destroy a few workers.
TvP will be broken as well, wtf 7 Range imba faster Thor with bonus to mechanical units, lategame TvP will be a joke.
Hit-and run micro was too much for the terrans huh, and Zealots are sooo imba WTF.
Don't like this at all, i'll switch to Zerg for sure.
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On October 23 2011 18:03 SharkStarcraft wrote:
So, the Oracle is probably the worst harassing unit in the game, not killing workers is bad enough, but the opponent can even DESTROY the "forcefields", which is horrible, i thought it would like last for 20 seconds and then destroy itself, but that way your opponent just needs to destroy it and you've done ZERO damage.
Think about dropping Zealots: you kill a few workers and the opponent needs to pull his worker as well, so the mining-time damage is the same AND you destroy a few workers.
TvP will be broken as well, wtf 7 Range imba faster Thor with bonus to mechanical units, lategame TvP will be a joke.
Hit-and run micro was too much for the terrans huh, and Zealots are sooo imba WTF.
Don't like this at all, i'll switch to Zerg for sure.
Target a building and it can't do anything for 45 seconds. That alone is worth 200/200, especially if it can lock out tech like the description implies. Zerg wants to make a batch of broods? Nope, phase shift on the greater spire and you've got almost a full minute to make something happen.
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On October 23 2011 18:03 SharkStarcraft wrote:
So, the Oracle is probably the worst harassing unit in the game, not killing workers is bad enough, but the opponent can even DESTROY the "forcefields", which is horrible, i thought it would like last for 20 seconds and then destroy itself, but that way your opponent just needs to destroy it and you've done ZERO damage.
Think about dropping Zealots: you kill a few workers and the opponent needs to pull his worker as well, so the mining-time damage is the same AND you destroy a few workers.
TvP will be broken as well, wtf 7 Range imba faster Thor with bonus to mechanical units, lategame TvP will be a joke.
Hit-and run micro was too much for the terrans huh, and Zealots are sooo imba WTF.
Don't like this at all, i'll switch to Zerg for sure.
It's a standalone denial unit. Not intended to work as part of a dedicated strategy, but it does herd the workers into the same 3 nodes making them easier to AoE with other units. It can also forcefield the minerals as an obfuscation technique leading into an attack on the front if your opponent diverts units to tear them down quickly.
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On October 23 2011 17:55 scFoX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 17:15 Sephy90 wrote:
ALSO ABOUT TIME THEY INTRODUCE HYDRALISK SPEED SHIT. I still think the ultralisk could've been way better with a speed upgrade as well but I guess the burrow is more flashy and could provide a better surround mechanic since I'm sure you might be able to control where they appear when they unburrow. The ultralisk did have a speed upgrade, like in BW. It was baked in during the beta. Honestly, their speed is okay -- they're as fast as speedbanes.
Although very true, here's the thing~ the Ultralisk's default speed was insanely low and they had the speed upgrade but even with the speed upgrade, they were still pretty slow. All they did now was just implement the speed upgrade (not sure if it was 100% of the old upgade or just added more speed to them overall) on default but even still it felt like the ultralisk was still fairly slow. In BW (correct me if I'm wrong) ultralisks with speed were exactly the same speed if not just SLIGHTLY behind speedlings and they filled their role in every matchup quite well.
Yeah they may be as fast as banelings but keep in mind Terran can still micro away from banelings and typically should never die to banelings alone, but that's where the numbers of the banelings comes into play as well as speedlings to do some surrounding. You could try and say this with the Ultralisk but they should've reduced their size just like they did the Thor and the Ultralisk is still too bulky/clunky to even get close and actually melee anything at all. I kept saying to myself "they should just have a speed upgrade ALONGSIDE the default speed buff they have now and basically have them as fast if not slightly behind speedling speed just like they did in BW. You can say this might be a little too powerful but this can be said with anything that is introduced and you won't know for sure until you test it out.
Overall if this was introduced I don't believe the Ultralisk would be too powerful but more stronger as a unit to be more considered to be used in the Zerg army. Actually there was a recent game with Dimaga I believe at Blizzconn? But basically he made a ton of ultras but they just got crumbled because stimmed units are moving too fast for their and kiting is just really effective.
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EPT
