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On October 22 2011 14:36 atavus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 14:27 ZorBa.G wrote:
I think most people know that Terran is in fact the most mirco intensive race. I'm not sure as to why people get so offended by this statement.... Yes every race has some mechanics which are difficault to achieve then others. But if your talking about micro, I dont think there is any denying that Terran is the most micro intensive race. Fact is people think that being micro intensive is about "Oh it's hard". Terran is micro-intensive not because the micro is hard but because it's Hit&run and split for almost all the units, the hit& run is intensive (meaning time consuming) YES, hard NO. As for placement before fight terran have less to care about compared to other races. Almost all terran unit move at the same speed 2.25. Zerg unit & toss unit have big differencies between their units speed & each units must be placed in very precise formation to not die.
This is just it though, Terran really do have to worry about placement on the battlefield. Every race does. It's actually easier for a Toss or Zerg to get their army into place then what it is for a Terran. Zerg has creep, Toss has observers. Yeah, Terran has scans.... but who the hell wastes scans on JUST trying to get their amry into place relative to where the oppossitions army is? Theres a whole map your looking at, the chances you waste a scan on nothing but terrain is fairly high, lol.
I am not saying at all that Zerg and Toss requires no micro and tbh, after this expansion... it's seems like the Zerg race will actualy get even more micro intensive. But Toss really is the race the requires the least mirco, I don't know why you would want to deny that or why you would get offended by that. Hey if all I had to do is just get my army formations right before I attack an army and make sure I get storm off, I'd be over the moon. However, I do know there is heaps more to the toss race, such as spending chronos wisely.....
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On October 22 2011 14:42 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 14:34 SuperYo1000 wrote:On October 22 2011 14:34 Jumbled wrote:On October 22 2011 14:24 bRiz wrote:
anyone else think replicators won't make the cut because they're too useless? As long as it's cheaper than some units and doesn't have an absurd build time, it'll be worthwhile. If I'm Protoss in HotS, I make one colossus, ignore the range upgrade, then go crazy cloning range-upgraded colossi for less than what it costs to build them. you cant replicate massive units Hmm, hadn't noted that part. Limits it a bit, but it still might let you get storm out a bit faster. It's difficult to say how useful cloning enemy units would be without knowing the mechanics of it - range, cloning time, that kind of thing.
Seems that as long you see it as a protoss you can copicat the unit meaning a combo with obs & replicant seems really powerful.
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Congrats Blizzard, you will get my 60 dollars after all.
Although it kind of sucks they took out the Thors. But if they are really going down this mechwarrior copying route, please make a super Thor in shape of an Atlas for the next one.
Edit: I realize that there is an Odin [you know, the Thor prototype from the singleplayer that is a hero unit like the mothership] I am just saying I am going to miss Thors.
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On October 22 2011 14:41 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 14:23 Mjolnir wrote:On October 22 2011 14:12 kofman wrote:On October 22 2011 14:10 StoLiVe wrote:On October 22 2011 14:09 kofman wrote:On October 22 2011 14:01 Dommk wrote:On October 22 2011 13:53 kofman wrote:On October 22 2011 13:53 Dommk wrote:On October 22 2011 13:47 Active.815 wrote:
@niteowl: takes 8 seconds to set up, 3 seconds to kill (2 for probes because of no regen/40hp), and blizz already said they were considering making a special sound (ala nuke)
Phoneix/blinkstalker already counters mutas, this just adds to anti-spireplay
Harass that won't die nearly as easily as hellions/shuts down static D/shuts down mining (less noticeable)...
I will admit the replicant is rather underwhelming, however :p I disagree about the replicant. Just the ability to replicate an SCV to make Orbitals to give Scan and Mules is worth the price alone. Imagine late game PvT, Protoss is also be able to reach a "True max" with their own Orbital farm replacing workers as well as endless scans to get tactical advantages Why would you need scans, protoss has observers. If you have to ask that question then I don't think you actually play this game. There is a huge difference in being able to get information right at that very instant as opposed to in a short to long period of time. Observers are great for keeping tabs, but Scans are absolutely amazing at gaining information immediately If i didn't play sc, why would i be at teamliquid? Observers are like permanent scans which are a lot cheaper than scans, and can move around. I don't see why anybody would want scans rather than observers. because scan don't cost supply and observer does oO Scans cost 270 mins, while observers cost 25/75. Observers can last forever, while scans last for 10 seconds. Observers can move, while scans can only see 1 area. I think its pretty clear which is better. Hehe, poor little Terran. Scan is the best scouting and detection in the game, period. You wanna cry about costs? How about the fact that for me (a Zerg) to scout an opponent at my level (Master) I will generally spend over 300 minerals in either OLs or lings. More often than not, if the opponent isn't total fail, I see squat. It's easy to preemptively set up patrols where OLs will poke, and sending lings at the front is basically suiciding minerals on the off-chance you see something useful (again, rare if they don't suck). Now, here's the kicker. The other 50% of my play time is dedicated to Terran. When I want to see what's going on I go "clickity click!" on my OC and voila! I can see anything - anywhere - instantly. Does that cost me a MULE? Yep. Do I care? Nope. Why? Because having the right army comp, in the right spot, at the right time, is worth more than a MULE. Moreover, late game, I can spam comsat like it's going out of style and not give a rat's ass about the cost. So yeah... I play Z and T equally. Terran's comsat is the shit... don't even try to deny it. I'm not crying about costs. Every race is different, I agree that comsats are good, but observers are even better, because they are permanent and can move around. The fact that you don't care when you use a scan rather than a mule just shows that you don't play terran at all. Every terran cringes when they burn a scan in the earlygame, rather than use a mule, especially when the scan doesn't see anything. I don't understand your zerg whine. By suiciding in zerglings in the frount, you gain intel about their army comp, and there are these units called overlords which can give you incredible map vision. Just cause your masters doesn't mean shit.
"Cringes" might be a bit over the top...
Obviously a SCAN is going to mean a lot more on one or two bases, no one is denying that, but the vast majority of the time the fact that you are using the SCAN alone means that just the potential for you to gain information alone is worth more to you than the extra income from the MULE. When you hit the mid game and beyond, it really ceases to be an issue at all.
Observers are much better in the early game, that is for sure, but later the game goes the better SCAN gets, up until the point where you get around 6+ Orbitals and no longer give a damn about energy, at that point the SCAN mechanic dwarfs Observers in usefulness
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OMG all of the new units/abilities look AMAZING
Blizzard has outdone themselves once again.
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On October 22 2011 14:52 Sub40APM wrote:
Congrats Blizzard, you will get my 60 dollars after all.
Although it kind of sucks they took out the Thors. But if they are really going down this mechwarrior copying route, please make a super Thor in shape of an Atlas for the next one.
Might want to check again about that one.
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is kerrigan gonna pull an arthalas ?
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Are they removing units for the other races? Because terran has 24 if im not mistaken and protoss 25 with mothership included whilst zerg has 22(23 with broodling?) or something.
And now with only 2 more to zerg with 3 to all the others? :/
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So this thread has deteriorated to the same old talk about scouting, which race is harder to play and who is overpowered. Please get the fuck out of this thread and take it to PM's.
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On October 22 2011 14:52 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 14:41 kofman wrote:On October 22 2011 14:23 Mjolnir wrote:On October 22 2011 14:12 kofman wrote:On October 22 2011 14:10 StoLiVe wrote:On October 22 2011 14:09 kofman wrote:On October 22 2011 14:01 Dommk wrote:On October 22 2011 13:53 kofman wrote:On October 22 2011 13:53 Dommk wrote:On October 22 2011 13:47 Active.815 wrote:
@niteowl: takes 8 seconds to set up, 3 seconds to kill (2 for probes because of no regen/40hp), and blizz already said they were considering making a special sound (ala nuke)
Phoneix/blinkstalker already counters mutas, this just adds to anti-spireplay
Harass that won't die nearly as easily as hellions/shuts down static D/shuts down mining (less noticeable)...
I will admit the replicant is rather underwhelming, however :p I disagree about the replicant. Just the ability to replicate an SCV to make Orbitals to give Scan and Mules is worth the price alone. Imagine late game PvT, Protoss is also be able to reach a "True max" with their own Orbital farm replacing workers as well as endless scans to get tactical advantages Why would you need scans, protoss has observers. If you have to ask that question then I don't think you actually play this game. There is a huge difference in being able to get information right at that very instant as opposed to in a short to long period of time. Observers are great for keeping tabs, but Scans are absolutely amazing at gaining information immediately If i didn't play sc, why would i be at teamliquid? Observers are like permanent scans which are a lot cheaper than scans, and can move around. I don't see why anybody would want scans rather than observers. because scan don't cost supply and observer does oO Scans cost 270 mins, while observers cost 25/75. Observers can last forever, while scans last for 10 seconds. Observers can move, while scans can only see 1 area. I think its pretty clear which is better. Hehe, poor little Terran. Scan is the best scouting and detection in the game, period. You wanna cry about costs? How about the fact that for me (a Zerg) to scout an opponent at my level (Master) I will generally spend over 300 minerals in either OLs or lings. More often than not, if the opponent isn't total fail, I see squat. It's easy to preemptively set up patrols where OLs will poke, and sending lings at the front is basically suiciding minerals on the off-chance you see something useful (again, rare if they don't suck). Now, here's the kicker. The other 50% of my play time is dedicated to Terran. When I want to see what's going on I go "clickity click!" on my OC and voila! I can see anything - anywhere - instantly. Does that cost me a MULE? Yep. Do I care? Nope. Why? Because having the right army comp, in the right spot, at the right time, is worth more than a MULE. Moreover, late game, I can spam comsat like it's going out of style and not give a rat's ass about the cost. So yeah... I play Z and T equally. Terran's comsat is the shit... don't even try to deny it. I'm not crying about costs. Every race is different, I agree that comsats are good, but observers are even better, because they are permanent and can move around. The fact that you don't care when you use a scan rather than a mule just shows that you don't play terran at all. Every terran cringes when they burn a scan in the earlygame, rather than use a mule, especially when the scan doesn't see anything. I don't understand your zerg whine. By suiciding in zerglings in the frount, you gain intel about their army comp, and there are these units called overlords which can give you incredible map vision. Just cause your masters doesn't mean shit. "Cringes" might be a bit over the top... Obviously a SCAN is going to mean a lot more on one or two bases, no one is denying that, but the vast majority of the time the fact that you are using the SCAN alone means that just the potential for you to gain information alone is worth more to you than the extra income from the MULE. When you hit the mid game and beyond, it really ceases to be an issue at all. Observers are much better in the early game, that is for sure, but later the game goes the better SCAN gets, up until the point where you get around 6+ Orbitals and no longer give a damn about energy, at that point the SCAN mechanic dwarfs Observers in usefulness
Yes, in the lategame, I agree that scans are better. However, in the early-mid game, observers are definetly better.
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Really think Protoss would benefit more from the shredder....would give them a defensive unit that lets them secure expos
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On October 22 2011 14:52 Sub40APM wrote:
Congrats Blizzard, you will get my 60 dollars after all.
Although it kind of sucks they took out the Thors. But if they are really going down this mechwarrior copying route, please make a super Thor in shape of an Atlas for the next one.
they already did. thor now plays in the same vain as the mother ship. its a super unit and u can only have 1 of it. its basically a siege walker now.
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Why does like every unit now have AoE? I pretty much hate all of the changes.
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I must say, Z v T lategame.... it seems almost impossible for Terran to compete now.
Let the Terran all-ins "only" against Zerg begin.....and I mean ONLY.
I don't want to speculate just yet, but thats how it seems.
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I'll judge the stuff Blizzard has put after I play the beta, the units do look fun. While stuff look OP now, there are always balance changes during beta.
Blizzard won't let us down
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I said 'Thors' guys, plural. Thors are gone. "Odin" is in the game however.
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On October 22 2011 14:50 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 14:36 atavus wrote:On October 22 2011 14:27 ZorBa.G wrote:
I think most people know that Terran is in fact the most mirco intensive race. I'm not sure as to why people get so offended by this statement.... Yes every race has some mechanics which are difficault to achieve then others. But if your talking about micro, I dont think there is any denying that Terran is the most micro intensive race. Fact is people think that being micro intensive is about "Oh it's hard". Terran is micro-intensive not because the micro is hard but because it's Hit&run and split for almost all the units, the hit& run is intensive (meaning time consuming) YES, hard NO. As for placement before fight terran have less to care about compared to other races. Almost all terran unit move at the same speed 2.25. Zerg unit & toss unit have big differencies between their units speed & each units must be placed in very precise formation to not die. This is just it though, Terran really do have to worry about placement on the battlefield. Every race does. It's actually easier for a Toss or Zerg to get their army into place then what it is for a Terran. Zerg has creep, Toss has observers. Yeah, Terran has scans.... but who the hell wastes scans on JUST trying to get their amry into place relative to where the oppossitions army is? Theres a whole map your looking at, the chances you waste a scan on nothing but terrain is fairly high, lol. I am not saying at all that Zerg and Toss requires no micro and tbh, after this expansion... it's seems like the Zerg race will actualy get even more micro intensive. But Toss really is the race the requires the least mirco, I don't know why you would want to deny that or why you would get offended by that. Hey if all I had to do is just get my army formations right before I attack an army and make sure I get storm off, I'd be over the moon. However, I do know there is heaps more to the toss race, such as spending chronos wisely.....
Zerg requires the least micro by far. The hardest part of microing Zerg units is mutas. The rest of their units can 1a more or less, at most you have to target fire.
Protoss micro relies on the unit's ability, it's not hard but you can't mess up.
Terran requires the most micro but it's more like multitasking actually. Dropping, kiting, etc is not hard by themselves but is hard to do while you're macroing because it is so attention intensive.
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I completely agree with Moscau. The whole AOE thing in SC2 is just getting annoying. Then again, it might "look" better spectator wise.
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On October 22 2011 14:37 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 14:26 drgoats wrote:On October 22 2011 13:53 Dommk wrote:On October 22 2011 13:47 Active.815 wrote:
@niteowl: takes 8 seconds to set up, 3 seconds to kill (2 for probes because of no regen/40hp), and blizz already said they were considering making a special sound (ala nuke)
Phoneix/blinkstalker already counters mutas, this just adds to anti-spireplay
Harass that won't die nearly as easily as hellions/shuts down static D/shuts down mining (less noticeable)...
I will admit the replicant is rather underwhelming, however :p I disagree about the replicant. Just the ability to replicate an SCV to make Orbitals to give Scan and Mules is worth the price alone. Imagine late game PvT, Protoss is also be able to reach a "True max" with their own Orbital farm replacing workers as well as endless scans to get tactical advantages So you need to pay the cost of the replicant, plus the cost of the command center, a barracks, and the oribital upgrade? Might be overpriced for only mules and scans, even as good as they are. On a side note: How does the recall work? Do we target a nexus or does the recall only return units to the nexus that actually used the ability. If it is the latter, I can see that being slightly awkward since the majority of the toss players have all of their nexuses binded to one key and have no control over which one is actually being used to use the ability. This would lead to us having to bind each nexus on a different hotkey. Mass recall will most likely it will work like every other AOE spell with smart casting, meaning it will just use the Nexus that is the closest to the center of the Mass Recall AOE.
The issue is that during the game you will not have too much control over how much energy each nexus has. So if I go ahead and press my nexus hotkey, cast recall, place the target over my units, click... and then what... where do my units go? To the nexus that used the spell?? If that is the case, we really have no control over it unless we are more careful on how we use our energy when we crono. Our units could end up across the map.
Protoss only have all their Nexus's on one hotkey because there is no reason to have them on different hotkeys, it will obviously chance come HOTS.
I understand why we use only one hotkey, and if recall works the way I think it does, then yes, you are right.
The initial investment to get an Orbital Command looks steep, but after 3 bases, honestly you have more than enough income to spare to build them.
And less reason to use mule.
One of the biggest Problems for Protoss is taking expansions, a lot of the time you see Protoss lose is because they can't seem to secure an additional third/forth base due to enemy pressure. How many times have you seen far away expansions being canceled by marauder drops? Now imagine taking far away expos as Protoss now against Terran. It will be SUPER easy, you can create the Orbital at home or in a super obscure spot guaranteeing you that it will ALWAYS be completed.
This will completely throw a spanner in Terrans gameplan, they won't be able to snipe expansions anymore with marauder drops alone. With Mass recall and flying Orbitals, Terran would exclusively have to use Marine drops to do any real damage to out lying expansions, which are MUCH easier to defend than Marauder drops.
I think that mass recall will be enough to defend these drops, floating away buildings seems too much like fluff and unnecessary.
The replicant in my eyes just looks so fucking amazing. Pound for Pound the unit will probably not be worth it most of the time, but Starcraft is a game beyond mere statistics, being able to create a full energy Infestor, Viper, Templar or even a Voidray can often mean the difference between an easy win or a devastating loss.
The unit gives a tactical advantage, which IMO is worth significantly more than mere army value
I am very curious to see how the units gets used. I think that we will see very little use initially and as people become more creative with it in the future I think that it is possible that it will become a solid inclusion in many toss armies. Though, I do not think we will see it building command centers. Theorycrafting alone makes me think that it will not be efficient enough on the higher levels, but this is just my opninion. If it turns out that building command centers is the main reason that protoss uses them in that matchup, then I see blizzard nerfing them since I do not think it was their intention that they would be used like that.
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On October 22 2011 14:56 Krehlmar wrote:
Are they removing units for the other races? Because terran has 24 if im not mistaken and protoss 25 with mothership included whilst zerg has 22(23 with broodling?) or something.
And now with only 2 more to zerg with 3 to all the others? :/
Well, since Thors, Motherships and Carriers are gone, it should sate that.
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EPT
