|
On October 22 2011 11:51 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:48 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:45 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:43 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:42 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:40 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:38 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:35 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:25 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:19 Woizit wrote:
Um... how's Terran going to do low/high ground siege against Zerg now with a Lair tech pull from the flying Viper?! That seriously sounds OP as hell. so what ur saying is u want zerg to be completly defenseless/cost inefficient against siege tanks like they are now? the problem with siege tanks right now is that marine tank is stupidly cost effective against zerg because they dont have proper defenses against them. dont complain now that we actually have a COST EFFECTIVE unit to deal with tanks now. no longer do we have to suicide thousands and thousands of gas and minerals into a army that is mostly just minerals and barely any gas. infact the only gas comes from the tanks/medivacs. Oh ouch, the race that takes the most bases and has the best worker production has to spend slightly more to counter an army :C The viper isn't going to be cost effective, it's just going to be bullshit. Without any way to counter the viper's spells, ling/bling can just roll through marines while tanks get pulled everywhere~and you can't kill the vipers because corrupters rape every anti-air option T has atm. Zerg have to be cost inefficient to be balanced, because they have the easiest time expanding and the fastest units in the game. Why is it such a problem that it takes a couple more lings/blings than the exact same cost terran army to kill terran? Unrelated note: I'm going to miss the carrier :C so good in PvP :D how will they be bull shit when u have vikings to snipe the vipers from a range of 9? all its going to do is have terrans build vikings earlier which they already do against broodlords anyway. terrans also have the shredders so its not like u terrans have to worry about counter atks anymore... Hey look, corrupters and magic melee range vikings! wonder how this will go! first of all i think the cloud only effects ground units from what ive heard. 2nd of all, u do know u can move vikings out of the cloud range right? derp Hey look, you completely ignored corrupters (again). And moving out of the cloud is still time not shooting, which is going to make them even worse. what are corruptors going to do? u TARGET fire the vipers then kite the corruptors. whats the problem? u seriously think corruptors are good in TvZ? corrupters are air control. Spread vipers, corrupters get to kill the vikings for maybe 2 vipers? Whoop-de-doo time to unsiege and retreat again! lol spreading vipers isnt going to do anything because vikings dont have splash in the first place. not only that but ur main concern is the vipers, not the corruptors. the corrptors are USELESS in zvt. as long as u kill the vipers then that means no more cloud. no more clouds means that the marines will utterly rape any corruptors that ur vikings did not kill.
Okay. I'm going to make this really simple for you.
let's say you have some vikings trying to snipe some vipers with corrupter cover. Cool, right?
Okay. Then you spread the vipers and keep your clump of corrupters on patrol or somesuch.
Then~Vikings fly forward, but wait! corrupters! then the vikings kill a viper while getting killzored :o
But wait! since you were a responsible zerg, you moved your vipers so that there was space between them, and now the vikings have to move (while being shot) to shoot the next one! and then they die! oooooooooooooooo
|
On October 22 2011 10:57 PermaScrub wrote:
Love the new units. I'm a bit iffy on the oracle's harass potential. It look likes it costs a lot of gas and is stargate tech, the same as phoenixes. So no new early game harass unit for protoss. The warhound units looks kind of meh too. But I'm still looking forwards to HOTS XD
Yeah... it is so not what I was expecting. I was absolutely expecting something like a reaper, which would do so much for fixing the Protoss holes. Instead, we get a 200 gas unit that... can delay mining????? I mean, I'd rather just warp in some zealots and delay mining that way and maybe get the zealots out. Or make 4 phoenix instead of 2 oracles and at least kill some MULES or overlords.
The anti-turret/spore/cannon on the oracle would be good if the oracle cost 100 gas, like a corsair, and did something damaging, like the corsair.
So all an all, sadly it's not going to work or be used as it is currently designed, unless they make the mineral blocking ability really hard to negate... but my guess is that would to go from useless to OP very quickly.
|
The Oracle may be the most creative unit in the game.
|
On October 22 2011 11:54 Ballistixz wrote:
also terrans still have ravens FFS. USE IT. PDD will also make corruptors useless while u snipe the vipers.
Yeah, but from my understanding, Swarm Host is going to be pretty fricken good against Siege Tanks :D
|
On October 22 2011 11:55 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:51 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:48 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:45 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:43 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:42 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:40 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:38 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:35 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:25 Ballistixz wrote:
[quote]
so what ur saying is u want zerg to be completly defenseless/cost inefficient against siege tanks like they are now? the problem with siege tanks right now is that marine tank is stupidly cost effective against zerg because they dont have proper defenses against them.
dont complain now that we actually have a COST EFFECTIVE unit to deal with tanks now. no longer do we have to suicide thousands and thousands of gas and minerals into a army that is mostly just minerals and barely any gas. infact the only gas comes from the tanks/medivacs. Oh ouch, the race that takes the most bases and has the best worker production has to spend slightly more to counter an army :C The viper isn't going to be cost effective, it's just going to be bullshit. Without any way to counter the viper's spells, ling/bling can just roll through marines while tanks get pulled everywhere~and you can't kill the vipers because corrupters rape every anti-air option T has atm. Zerg have to be cost inefficient to be balanced, because they have the easiest time expanding and the fastest units in the game. Why is it such a problem that it takes a couple more lings/blings than the exact same cost terran army to kill terran? Unrelated note: I'm going to miss the carrier :C so good in PvP :D how will they be bull shit when u have vikings to snipe the vipers from a range of 9? all its going to do is have terrans build vikings earlier which they already do against broodlords anyway. terrans also have the shredders so its not like u terrans have to worry about counter atks anymore... Hey look, corrupters and magic melee range vikings! wonder how this will go! first of all i think the cloud only effects ground units from what ive heard. 2nd of all, u do know u can move vikings out of the cloud range right? derp Hey look, you completely ignored corrupters (again). And moving out of the cloud is still time not shooting, which is going to make them even worse. what are corruptors going to do? u TARGET fire the vipers then kite the corruptors. whats the problem? u seriously think corruptors are good in TvZ? corrupters are air control. Spread vipers, corrupters get to kill the vikings for maybe 2 vipers? Whoop-de-doo time to unsiege and retreat again! lol spreading vipers isnt going to do anything because vikings dont have splash in the first place. not only that but ur main concern is the vipers, not the corruptors. the corrptors are USELESS in zvt. as long as u kill the vipers then that means no more cloud. no more clouds means that the marines will utterly rape any corruptors that ur vikings did not kill. Okay. I'm going to make this really simple for you. let's say you have some vikings trying to snipe some vipers with corrupter cover. Cool, right? Okay. Then you spread the vipers and keep your clump of corrupters on patrol or somesuch. Then~Vikings fly forward, but wait! corrupters! then the vikings kill a viper while getting killzored :o But wait! since you were a responsible zerg, you moved your vipers so that there was space between them, and now the vikings have to move (while being shot) to shoot the next one! and then they die! oooooooooooooooo
do you know what point defense drone does? use it with ur vikings, it will do wonders........
PDD does basically what vipers do. i have no idea why you terrans constantly ignore it.
|
Yes, very potent, with each Colossus costing 300/200 and each Tempest costing 300/300.
Um...so? Lategame compositions are expensive, news at 11. Mixing T3 units does happen from time to time in Protoss matchups. Hell, frikking Archon Toilet has been getting used, and that costs 50/300 per an archon plus a 400/400 mothership.
The fact is, if you have a unit that owns everything on the ground, and another unit that owns everything in the skies, pairing them together is gonna be nasty strong, even if its expensive. Once they're on 3 or more bases, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Tempest/Colossus be the go to choice for Protoss as an "ideal" lategame comp.
|
Why is dark swarm superior to the new version? Because w/ dark swarm you could choose to stay in it. With the new version the enemy can just move.
|
In my opinion it looks like they are bringing SC2 back to it's roots. With thie expansion the game will look very similay to BW(changes yes, but more sublte). I think Blizzard realises that WoL was a bit of a mistake, despite it's success, and are trying to correct it via comparable new units(to BW) in the expansion.
|
On October 22 2011 11:56 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:55 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:51 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:48 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:45 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:43 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:42 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:40 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:38 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:35 Active.815 wrote:
[quote]
Oh ouch, the race that takes the most bases and has the best worker production has to spend slightly more to counter an army :C
The viper isn't going to be cost effective, it's just going to be bullshit. Without any way to counter the viper's spells, ling/bling can just roll through marines while tanks get pulled everywhere~and you can't kill the vipers because corrupters rape every anti-air option T has atm.
Zerg have to be cost inefficient to be balanced, because they have the easiest time expanding and the fastest units in the game. Why is it such a problem that it takes a couple more lings/blings than the exact same cost terran army to kill terran?
Unrelated note: I'm going to miss the carrier :C so good in PvP :D how will they be bull shit when u have vikings to snipe the vipers from a range of 9? all its going to do is have terrans build vikings earlier which they already do against broodlords anyway. terrans also have the shredders so its not like u terrans have to worry about counter atks anymore... Hey look, corrupters and magic melee range vikings! wonder how this will go! first of all i think the cloud only effects ground units from what ive heard. 2nd of all, u do know u can move vikings out of the cloud range right? derp Hey look, you completely ignored corrupters (again). And moving out of the cloud is still time not shooting, which is going to make them even worse. what are corruptors going to do? u TARGET fire the vipers then kite the corruptors. whats the problem? u seriously think corruptors are good in TvZ? corrupters are air control. Spread vipers, corrupters get to kill the vikings for maybe 2 vipers? Whoop-de-doo time to unsiege and retreat again! lol spreading vipers isnt going to do anything because vikings dont have splash in the first place. not only that but ur main concern is the vipers, not the corruptors. the corrptors are USELESS in zvt. as long as u kill the vipers then that means no more cloud. no more clouds means that the marines will utterly rape any corruptors that ur vikings did not kill. Okay. I'm going to make this really simple for you. let's say you have some vikings trying to snipe some vipers with corrupter cover. Cool, right? Okay. Then you spread the vipers and keep your clump of corrupters on patrol or somesuch. Then~Vikings fly forward, but wait! corrupters! then the vikings kill a viper while getting killzored :o But wait! since you were a responsible zerg, you moved your vipers so that there was space between them, and now the vikings have to move (while being shot) to shoot the next one! and then they die! oooooooooooooooo do you know what point defense drone does? use it with ur vikings, it will do wonders........ PDD does basically what vipers do. i have no idea why you terrans constantly ignore.
Because 10-12 corrupters can't snipe a raven before it gets into good range for PDD, and, after that, can't remove all the energy in 1-2 volleys..
What the fuck are you talking about? PDD neutralizes a very specific type and number of shots, and Vipers make EVERYTHING melee. There's a very large difference there. Oh, and guess what, Vipers can also pull shit out of position!
|
Siege tank/warhound/shredder play must be amazing.Mass turret/turtle style,almost like sc1 terran.Cant wait for HotS terran!
|
On October 22 2011 11:56 0neder wrote:
Why is dark swarm superior to the new version? Because w/ dark swarm you could choose to stay in it. With the new version the enemy can just move.
think marine tank vs ling bling
|
So the factory has like 5 units now, or is it 6? Well, at least I wont hear Artosis complaining about mech anymore. I think Blizz just needs to start over with toss for HotS. We want to have the colossus removed, not our carriers! And change the high ground mechanics too, I want them to be similar to how they were in brood war. Heartbrake Ridge 2.0
|
On October 22 2011 11:56 0neder wrote:
Why is dark swarm superior to the new version? Because w/ dark swarm you could choose to stay in it. With the new version the enemy can just move.
In the old version, the enemy could just move. With the new version, you can choose to stay in it.
|
On October 22 2011 11:56 0neder wrote:
Why is dark swarm superior to the new version? Because w/ dark swarm you could choose to stay in it. With the new version the enemy can just move.
But Dark Swarm would be incredible overpowered in Starcraft2. The "disruption web" is fine for assault tanks defenses.
|
On October 22 2011 11:43 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:27 Lazerlike42 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:25 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:19 Woizit wrote:
Um... how's Terran going to do low/high ground siege against Zerg now with a Lair tech pull from the flying Viper?! That seriously sounds OP as hell. so what ur saying is u want zerg to be completly defenseless/cost inefficient against siege tanks like they are now? the problem with siege tanks right now is that marine tank is stupidly cost effective against zerg because they dont have proper defenses against them. dont complain now that we actually have a COST EFFECTIVE unit to deal with tanks now. Mass banelings do very well against it. Like, 50, 60, or 70 of them at a time. It's starting to show up in some of the tournaments and high level play I've seen. Against Siege tanks, trading 20 banelings are not that great. Trading 50+ of them does tremendous damage, and Zerg can resupply much faster than Terran, especially if Terran needs to remake siege tanks. Are 70+Banelings really a cost effective way to deal with STs? Yes, they work, but they require rather more resources than the equivalent number of Tanks.
The real question is, does it work? I've seen it used many times, and I've really not seen it fail too much. The reason being, at a certain point in the game, Zerg can easily throw away 70 banelings and then resupply with lings, blings, or any number of other things before Terran is able to get much back up.
Looking at it by the numbers, 70 banelings is about 5000 resources - twice as many minerals as gas. 5000 resources of siege tanks is about 18, and nearly equal quantities of gas and minerals. You're obviously not going to have all of those resources in siege tanks, though, or you'll lose to mutas instantly. Some of it needs to be in marines. We could come up with math to figure out precise compositions based on different builds, but for the sake of simplicity, is it fair to say that 10 siege tanks + 50 marines would be a very, very strong composition?
If so, that's 45* 50 = 2250 marine HP, and 1600 siege tank HP.
70 banelings would do 1400 damage vs. siege tanks, or 2450 vs. the marines, which with splash is enough to destroy all of them. Now, some banelings will die before inflicting damage, but still, I think its fair to say that the cost efficiency is pretty reasonable vs. marine/tank.
|
On October 22 2011 11:53 Crysack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:49 awesomoecalypse wrote:If tempest can be kited by vikings, I see no future for protoss in the PvT matchup... The tempest is supposed to be pretty fast from what I understand. In a wierd way, the Tempest seems like the opposite of the carrier. Carriers were great against mech but sucked vs. mass anti-air. The Tempest looks like it will own mass air, but a bunch of ground-to-air like the new Goliath will mess it up. Colossus/Tempest could be crazy potent, actually. Use Tempest to take down everything in the skies, and Colossi to melt ground forces. The only real counter would seem to be something like Battlecruisers. Is the Tempest massive? What makes you think that mass viking or mass corruptor won't utterly obliterate Colossus/Tempest? The Tempest looks like it's primarily designed to counter mass-muta. I can't imagine that the single-target DPS will be particularly high if they have that much splash - making them extremely vulnerable to the AA units of the other races. Not to mention the ASTRONOMICAL amount of gas involved with a colossus/tempest composition - it's almost like advocating a carrier/colossus composition now.
I feel the tempest is a decent move from blizzard to address p's weakness to mutas, but it's misdirected. There are a host of reasons why but I feel the evidence is best stated by pro games. The majority of muta/ling or muta/roach zvps are won in the midgame, not the lategame. Protoss also doesn't have problems dealing with mutas in a head-on engagement, so I think the tempest is irrelevant: I don't see the tempest being used like corsairs because they are so expensive and take so long to get.
|
if replicators are 200/200, and build from robo, couldn't you replicate your tempests? or you can only replicate enemy units? What about 2x robo bays pumping replicators after 1 collosus?
another thing, I think someone mentioned it, but david kim DID mention about 'general' upgrades to protoss specifically because of early game terran pressure. His example was boosting upgrade speed, but he had more ideas i think.
|
On October 22 2011 11:59 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:56 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:55 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:51 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:48 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:45 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:43 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:42 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:40 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:38 Ballistixz wrote:
[quote]
how will they be bull shit when u have vikings to snipe the vipers from a range of 9? all its going to do is have terrans build vikings earlier which they already do against broodlords anyway. terrans also have the shredders so its not like u terrans have to worry about counter atks anymore... Hey look, corrupters and magic melee range vikings! wonder how this will go! first of all i think the cloud only effects ground units from what ive heard. 2nd of all, u do know u can move vikings out of the cloud range right? derp Hey look, you completely ignored corrupters (again). And moving out of the cloud is still time not shooting, which is going to make them even worse. what are corruptors going to do? u TARGET fire the vipers then kite the corruptors. whats the problem? u seriously think corruptors are good in TvZ? corrupters are air control. Spread vipers, corrupters get to kill the vikings for maybe 2 vipers? Whoop-de-doo time to unsiege and retreat again! lol spreading vipers isnt going to do anything because vikings dont have splash in the first place. not only that but ur main concern is the vipers, not the corruptors. the corrptors are USELESS in zvt. as long as u kill the vipers then that means no more cloud. no more clouds means that the marines will utterly rape any corruptors that ur vikings did not kill. Okay. I'm going to make this really simple for you. let's say you have some vikings trying to snipe some vipers with corrupter cover. Cool, right? Okay. Then you spread the vipers and keep your clump of corrupters on patrol or somesuch. Then~Vikings fly forward, but wait! corrupters! then the vikings kill a viper while getting killzored :o But wait! since you were a responsible zerg, you moved your vipers so that there was space between them, and now the vikings have to move (while being shot) to shoot the next one! and then they die! oooooooooooooooo do you know what point defense drone does? use it with ur vikings, it will do wonders........ PDD does basically what vipers do. i have no idea why you terrans constantly ignore. Because 10-12 corrupters can't snipe a raven before it gets into good range for PDD, and, after that, can't remove all the energy in 1-2 volleys.. What the fuck are you talking about? PDD neutralizes a very specific type and number of shots, and Vipers make EVERYTHING melee. There's a very large difference there. Oh, and guess what, Vipers can also pull shit out of position!
you guys realise it doesnt make sense to theorycraft how to take down vipers before you even have played the game?
|
The Tempest looks like it's primarily designed to counter mass-muta. I can't imagine that the single-target DPS will be particularly high if they have that much splash - making them extremely vulnerable to the AA units of the other races.
Vikings get owned by splash though, and even mass Corruptor tend to be vulnerable to it do to the way air units naturally clump. You can magic box them over your own army and probably be okay, but get caught moving and all those clumped units will get wrecked by splash damage. Its basically the same reason Storm is great against Vikings.
Not to mention the ASTRONOMICAL amount of gas involved with a colossus/tempest composition - it's almost like advocating a carrier/colossus composition now.
If Carriers built as quickly as Tempests are currently slated to (which is nearly as fast as Void Rays) I might just advocate that  . But Carriers dont have splash, which is really the key--the typical anti-Colossi response is reactored Starports pumping tons of Vikings, or Mass Corruptor, and "mass" anything air is vulnerable to splash.
|
Wondering how the replicant works in terms of copying units and abilities?
It looks like it needs the source of the copy to be within range, so how far is its copy range? Is it anywhere on the map where you have vision of your enemy units?
Wondering also if it has a countdown timer for the copy? Once it depletes do you revert back into a replicant? If not, can you recopy into another unit while you have already replicated already?
The only problem I see with a click copy mode for the replicant is that you could mistakenly end up clicking a marine instead of say a siege tank and you've pretty much waste resources right there. hehe!
How would the tempest fair against a Terran Battlecruiser? Since it has AOE Damage, I'm kind of doubtful it would have a really high dps on a per unit basis. Just curious. Hoping for the release of gameplay videos from Blizzcon if there are. =)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
