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another problem with the new protoss units is that they don't change the exisiting detection problem, which forces every protoss more or less into the robo-tech.
with burrow-move banelings non-static detection is even more important and every other race has a detection option outside their techtrees (viper at lair, scan)
While the tempest may be great against mutas, the tech and the actual unit cost is too high to really be useful against mutas, as you're stuck on 2base most of the time against muta-ling.
The mineralblock of the oracle is cute, but when you don't kill the workers you just delay the economy for a few seconds... I would love a harass unit that has "unlimited" kill capabilities/ an air-to-ground attack. Phoenix are limited by their mana and compared to mutas rather weak for harassment.
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Anybody know where to find any of the actual multiplayer unit demos they did during the panel? Very anxious to see those vids. Guessing that im going to have to wait til the event is over tho?
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On October 22 2011 11:38 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:35 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:25 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:19 Woizit wrote:
Um... how's Terran going to do low/high ground siege against Zerg now with a Lair tech pull from the flying Viper?! That seriously sounds OP as hell. so what ur saying is u want zerg to be completly defenseless/cost inefficient against siege tanks like they are now? the problem with siege tanks right now is that marine tank is stupidly cost effective against zerg because they dont have proper defenses against them. dont complain now that we actually have a COST EFFECTIVE unit to deal with tanks now. no longer do we have to suicide thousands and thousands of gas and minerals into a army that is mostly just minerals and barely any gas. infact the only gas comes from the tanks/medivacs. Oh ouch, the race that takes the most bases and has the best worker production has to spend slightly more to counter an army :C The viper isn't going to be cost effective, it's just going to be bullshit. Without any way to counter the viper's spells, ling/bling can just roll through marines while tanks get pulled everywhere~and you can't kill the vipers because corrupters rape every anti-air option T has atm. Zerg have to be cost inefficient to be balanced, because they have the easiest time expanding and the fastest units in the game. Why is it such a problem that it takes a couple more lings/blings than the exact same cost terran army to kill terran? Unrelated note: I'm going to miss the carrier :C so good in PvP :D how will they be bull shit when u have vikings to snipe the vipers from a range of 9? all its going to do is have terrans build vikings earlier which they already do against broodlords anyway. terrans also have the shredders so its not like u terrans have to worry about counter atks anymore...
Hey look, corrupters and magic melee range vikings! wonder how this will go!
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I agree. Of the new units,it seems as though terran and zerg have new units that "complete" the race, however protoss(not withstanding further changes) seems to just have replacements for pre-existing units which may require more micro ^^ I don´t know how it will play out in the actual game-play however it seems like protoss is seriously lacking something they can use to do any early-mid game damage(e.g. bunker rush, mutas, drops, lings etc.)
The Oracle looks like it can do potent econ damage and it is available from the early game on.
Also, the fact that you can recall your entire force from the get-go means you can do a big early push, do some damage, then pull out before taking too many losses, and all you lose is some CB.
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On October 22 2011 11:32 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:27 humbre wrote:On October 22 2011 11:25 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:19 Woizit wrote:
Um... how's Terran going to do low/high ground siege against Zerg now with a Lair tech pull from the flying Viper?! That seriously sounds OP as hell. so what ur saying is u want zerg to be completly defenseless/cost inefficient against siege tanks like they are now? the problem with siege tanks right now is that marine tank is stupidly cost effective against zerg because they dont have proper defenses against them. dont complain now that we actually have a COST EFFECTIVE unit to deal with tanks now. lol broodlord infestor? broodlords dont come untill hive tech which usually dont come into play untill 17-20+ mins into the game. marine tank pushes come before the 10 minute mark and will continue untill broods are out. so please dont give me that bull about broodlords unless u plan to have them at the 8-9minute mark.
so play muta/bling into bl/infestor, tvz atm is very balanced your complaining about marine tank is retarded
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On October 22 2011 11:40 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:38 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:35 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:25 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:19 Woizit wrote:
Um... how's Terran going to do low/high ground siege against Zerg now with a Lair tech pull from the flying Viper?! That seriously sounds OP as hell. so what ur saying is u want zerg to be completly defenseless/cost inefficient against siege tanks like they are now? the problem with siege tanks right now is that marine tank is stupidly cost effective against zerg because they dont have proper defenses against them. dont complain now that we actually have a COST EFFECTIVE unit to deal with tanks now. no longer do we have to suicide thousands and thousands of gas and minerals into a army that is mostly just minerals and barely any gas. infact the only gas comes from the tanks/medivacs. Oh ouch, the race that takes the most bases and has the best worker production has to spend slightly more to counter an army :C The viper isn't going to be cost effective, it's just going to be bullshit. Without any way to counter the viper's spells, ling/bling can just roll through marines while tanks get pulled everywhere~and you can't kill the vipers because corrupters rape every anti-air option T has atm. Zerg have to be cost inefficient to be balanced, because they have the easiest time expanding and the fastest units in the game. Why is it such a problem that it takes a couple more lings/blings than the exact same cost terran army to kill terran? Unrelated note: I'm going to miss the carrier :C so good in PvP :D how will they be bull shit when u have vikings to snipe the vipers from a range of 9? all its going to do is have terrans build vikings earlier which they already do against broodlords anyway. terrans also have the shredders so its not like u terrans have to worry about counter atks anymore... Hey look, corrupters and magic melee range vikings! wonder how this will go!
first of all i think the cloud only effects ground units from what ive heard.
2nd of all, u do know u can move vikings out of the cloud range right? derp
we have a unit that actually requires micro to defend against and u yell OP because it takes slight micro to defend against it.
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On October 22 2011 11:35 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:25 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:19 Woizit wrote:
Um... how's Terran going to do low/high ground siege against Zerg now with a Lair tech pull from the flying Viper?! That seriously sounds OP as hell. so what ur saying is u want zerg to be completly defenseless/cost inefficient against siege tanks like they are now? the problem with siege tanks right now is that marine tank is stupidly cost effective against zerg because they dont have proper defenses against them. dont complain now that we actually have a COST EFFECTIVE unit to deal with tanks now. no longer do we have to suicide thousands and thousands of gas and minerals into a army that is mostly just minerals and barely any gas. infact the only gas comes from the tanks/medivacs. Oh ouch, the race that takes the most bases and has the best worker production has to spend slightly more to counter an army :C The viper isn't going to be cost effective, it's just going to be bullshit. Without any way to counter the viper's spells, ling/bling can just roll through marines while tanks get pulled everywhere~and you can't kill the vipers because corrupters rape every anti-air option T has atm. Zerg have to be cost inefficient to be balanced, because they have the easiest time expanding and the fastest units in the game. Why is it such a problem that it takes a couple more lings/blings than the exact same cost terran army to kill terran? Unrelated note: I'm going to miss the carrier :C so good in PvP :D
Warhounds. They destroy mutalisks more than thors ever did. Viper control will be hard, and marines will easily be able to snipe the slow vipers as they try to "pull tanks everywhere." The result may very well be muta/bling/ling/viper vs. marine/tank/warhound, with warhounds zoning the mutas with AoE, tanks zoning the ling/blings, vipers zoning the tanks, marines trying to snipe the vipers, and ling/bling waiting for the big flank-kill against a "repositioned" tank line. Of course, that's just a wild guess--who knows what the other changes will do?
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wow that thing sure snatched that colossus over scorpion style.
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Why do they keep buffing the heck outta zerg even though they are doing great. The goliath unit better be good.
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On October 22 2011 11:42 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:40 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:38 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:35 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:25 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:19 Woizit wrote:
Um... how's Terran going to do low/high ground siege against Zerg now with a Lair tech pull from the flying Viper?! That seriously sounds OP as hell. so what ur saying is u want zerg to be completly defenseless/cost inefficient against siege tanks like they are now? the problem with siege tanks right now is that marine tank is stupidly cost effective against zerg because they dont have proper defenses against them. dont complain now that we actually have a COST EFFECTIVE unit to deal with tanks now. no longer do we have to suicide thousands and thousands of gas and minerals into a army that is mostly just minerals and barely any gas. infact the only gas comes from the tanks/medivacs. Oh ouch, the race that takes the most bases and has the best worker production has to spend slightly more to counter an army :C The viper isn't going to be cost effective, it's just going to be bullshit. Without any way to counter the viper's spells, ling/bling can just roll through marines while tanks get pulled everywhere~and you can't kill the vipers because corrupters rape every anti-air option T has atm. Zerg have to be cost inefficient to be balanced, because they have the easiest time expanding and the fastest units in the game. Why is it such a problem that it takes a couple more lings/blings than the exact same cost terran army to kill terran? Unrelated note: I'm going to miss the carrier :C so good in PvP :D how will they be bull shit when u have vikings to snipe the vipers from a range of 9? all its going to do is have terrans build vikings earlier which they already do against broodlords anyway. terrans also have the shredders so its not like u terrans have to worry about counter atks anymore... Hey look, corrupters and magic melee range vikings! wonder how this will go! first of all i think the cloud only effects ground units from what ive heard. 2nd of all, u do know u can move vikings out of the cloud range right? derp
Hey look, you completely ignored corrupters (again).
And moving out of the cloud is still time not shooting, which is going to make them even worse.
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If tempest can be kited by vikings, I see no future for protoss in the PvT matchup...
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On October 22 2011 11:27 Lazerlike42 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:25 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:19 Woizit wrote:
Um... how's Terran going to do low/high ground siege against Zerg now with a Lair tech pull from the flying Viper?! That seriously sounds OP as hell. so what ur saying is u want zerg to be completly defenseless/cost inefficient against siege tanks like they are now? the problem with siege tanks right now is that marine tank is stupidly cost effective against zerg because they dont have proper defenses against them. dont complain now that we actually have a COST EFFECTIVE unit to deal with tanks now. Mass banelings do very well against it. Like, 50, 60, or 70 of them at a time. It's starting to show up in some of the tournaments and high level play I've seen. Against Siege tanks, trading 20 banelings are not that great. Trading 50+ of them does tremendous damage, and Zerg can resupply much faster than Terran, especially if Terran needs to remake siege tanks.
Are 70+Banelings really a cost effective way to deal with STs? Yes, they work, but they require rather more resources than the equivalent number of Tanks.
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i think the core problem is that David Kim doesnt seem to understand that protoss already has a problem with basic cost effiency and their "death ball" really isnt that scary compared to what the other races already have. They did nothing to adress the problems P already has and its going to get even worse in HoTS. I dont see how the toss army is going to be able to compete
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The mineralblock of the oracle is cute, but when you don't kill the workers you just delay the economy for a few seconds...
Depends very much on how long it lasts/how long it takes to bring down. 5 seconds of no mining? Whatever. 45? That can outright win you the game, and will seriously wreck your opponent's economy. My understanding is that, if not destroyed, it lasts for a long time, so the question is how easy it is to destroy.
Also, you can shut down entire tech trees for a while. Think about it--you win a fight, and right before the Zerg remaxes, you swoop in and take out a key tech structure, and suddenly their Roach-Long comp is just a Ling comp or something.
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On October 22 2011 11:43 rpgalon wrote:
If tempest can be kited by vikings, I see no future for protoss in the PvT matchup...
tempest actually looked really fast in the video
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On October 22 2011 11:43 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:42 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:40 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:38 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:35 Active.815 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:25 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:19 Woizit wrote:
Um... how's Terran going to do low/high ground siege against Zerg now with a Lair tech pull from the flying Viper?! That seriously sounds OP as hell. so what ur saying is u want zerg to be completly defenseless/cost inefficient against siege tanks like they are now? the problem with siege tanks right now is that marine tank is stupidly cost effective against zerg because they dont have proper defenses against them. dont complain now that we actually have a COST EFFECTIVE unit to deal with tanks now. no longer do we have to suicide thousands and thousands of gas and minerals into a army that is mostly just minerals and barely any gas. infact the only gas comes from the tanks/medivacs. Oh ouch, the race that takes the most bases and has the best worker production has to spend slightly more to counter an army :C The viper isn't going to be cost effective, it's just going to be bullshit. Without any way to counter the viper's spells, ling/bling can just roll through marines while tanks get pulled everywhere~and you can't kill the vipers because corrupters rape every anti-air option T has atm. Zerg have to be cost inefficient to be balanced, because they have the easiest time expanding and the fastest units in the game. Why is it such a problem that it takes a couple more lings/blings than the exact same cost terran army to kill terran? Unrelated note: I'm going to miss the carrier :C so good in PvP :D how will they be bull shit when u have vikings to snipe the vipers from a range of 9? all its going to do is have terrans build vikings earlier which they already do against broodlords anyway. terrans also have the shredders so its not like u terrans have to worry about counter atks anymore... Hey look, corrupters and magic melee range vikings! wonder how this will go! first of all i think the cloud only effects ground units from what ive heard. 2nd of all, u do know u can move vikings out of the cloud range right? derp Hey look, you completely ignored corrupters (again). And moving out of the cloud is still time not shooting, which is going to make them even worse.
what are corruptors going to do? u TARGET fire the vipers then kite the corruptors. whats the problem? u seriously think corruptors are good in TvZ?
and your argument about moving out is time not shooting doesnt make any sense. storm has the same exact effect.
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On October 22 2011 11:43 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:27 Lazerlike42 wrote:On October 22 2011 11:25 Ballistixz wrote:On October 22 2011 11:19 Woizit wrote:
Um... how's Terran going to do low/high ground siege against Zerg now with a Lair tech pull from the flying Viper?! That seriously sounds OP as hell. so what ur saying is u want zerg to be completly defenseless/cost inefficient against siege tanks like they are now? the problem with siege tanks right now is that marine tank is stupidly cost effective against zerg because they dont have proper defenses against them. dont complain now that we actually have a COST EFFECTIVE unit to deal with tanks now. Mass banelings do very well against it. Like, 50, 60, or 70 of them at a time. It's starting to show up in some of the tournaments and high level play I've seen. Against Siege tanks, trading 20 banelings are not that great. Trading 50+ of them does tremendous damage, and Zerg can resupply much faster than Terran, especially if Terran needs to remake siege tanks. Are 70+Banelings really a cost effective way to deal with STs? Yes, they work, but they require rather more resources than the equivalent number of Tanks.
Well, cost effectiveness at that point in the game isn't really too much of an issue with zerg. Zerg isn't supposed to be on the same level of cost effectiveness as protoss or terran, that's how the race is designed.
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I dont play terran
I have no intention of playing terran
I do however, find the new thor really ugly
What kind of QQ do you think it would take to have them just put those stats on a goliath body?
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On October 22 2011 11:41 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +I agree. Of the new units,it seems as though terran and zerg have new units that "complete" the race, however protoss(not withstanding further changes) seems to just have replacements for pre-existing units which may require more micro ^^ I don´t know how it will play out in the actual game-play however it seems like protoss is seriously lacking something they can use to do any early-mid game damage(e.g. bunker rush, mutas, drops, lings etc.) The Oracle looks like it can do potent econ damage and it is available from the early game on. Also, the fact that you can recall your entire force from the get-go means you can do a big early push, do some damage, then pull out before taking too many losses, and all you lose is some CB.
The oracle is a stargate unit. You won't be able to get it immediatly unless you skip robo (and thus detection).
It's a mid game unit at the very best.
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The new units for Protoss I don't see being as useful as the new units of the other races, except maybe the Oracle. I really have my doubts that the new Zerg units will be very balanced and I have a feeling Blizzard will struggle with balancing them.
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EPT
