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On October 22 2011 11:10 PPTouch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:04 Zeke50100 wrote:On October 22 2011 10:56 Fig wrote:
The duplicant just makes me laugh. Blizzard is admitting that Protoss units are not as good as terran or zerg units, so they gave toss a unit that can turn into terran and zerg units. I can see them being like, "OMG tosses will be so happy with this!" And Tosses look at it and think: It's pretty much the perfect fit for toss, expensive. There is nothing non-massive that costs 200/200 or more, so you are always getting a more expensive copy of what the opponent has. That is not a recipe for winning. Hope I'm proved wrong but this stuff seems far too expensive AND gimmicky. I mean seriously. The new capital ship is just a big, slow corsair that costs 300/300. So cool....... No, I'm pretty sure that's not why. Terran and Zerg units aren't "better" than Protoss units. The main purpose of the Replicant is to utilize combinations that would otherwise be ridiculously broken if they were readily available to Protoss (Force Field with Siege Tanks, Viper with Deathball, etc.). You're also falling into the trap that 99% of other posters in this thread have fallen into, which is the "resources = utility" mindset. Yes, a Siege Tank costs less than a Replicant, but Protoss doesn't HAVE a fricken Siege Tank. Take what you get. And no, just giving Protoss Siege Tanks wouldn't work. That would be ridiculously broken. good luck finding a terran making a siege tank in tvp
many 111 builds include siege tanks.. though they are currently less popular due to immortal range
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On October 22 2011 11:10 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:03 sc2holar wrote:On October 22 2011 10:58 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I really don't get the Oracle hate. No, it can't kill workers. Who gives a shit, if it can still cause massive economic damage, and force your opponent to pull lots of army units back to defend? Thats what harassment is. Killing workers is one way to do it, but making them useless is another. The Oracle can take tech trees out of commission, it can shut down static defense, and it can shut down an entire mineral line for 45 seconds with one shot. Its fast as hell too. And shutting down static defense synergizes awesomely with Phoenixes, as a spore or turret is no longer enough to utterly nullify Phoenix harass. And it is a get in, get out unit--it doesn't need to stick around while it kills lifted units, or charge up attacks. You fly in, get a shot off and fly out without taking damage, and you've done serious econ damage.
Yes, its expensive. Thats the nature of Protoss. if you want cheap shit, play T or Z. Protoss get extremely expensive, specialized units that are awesome at a given role, and the Oracle looks to be pretty damn awesome at harassment.
If anything, the Oracle looks like it could be too powerful. But frankly, Stargate could use some potent options. i think the problem is that its going to be very hard to balance. its either going to last for like 30-40 seconds and be potentially OP, or its just going to wear off after 10 seconds and not be worth the investment. You know, preventing 20 workers from mining for 10-20 seconds is not as good as KILLING 20 workers and, you know, preventing those from mining for the rest of the game. Oracle costs 200 fucking gas, and can block ONE (1) mineral patch per cast, which will not even last the full duration if the terran/zerg has atleast a few marines/lings in his base and is not falling asleep. Also keep in mind that you cant get it early game or mid game (since it costs so much gas), so you dont have potential to put pressure with it, like you would with hellions, banshees mutas, baneling drops or even ling runbys. Plus the damage is not permanent,so terran/zerg wouldn't have to actually make new workers or even static defense even to prevent harass.
Not to mention workers can attack, and since they can't mine, they might as well. I don't think it's 1 patch per cast, the intro video shows 5 patches being nailed at once after 3 of the other spells were put down (could be hax on, but meh, seems like it'd be a small AoE or a pretty cheap spell).
Since you should have 2-3 workers per patch for a saturated base, and assuming it's before the oracle comes out and arrives, that's 6.6 - 10 dps to the FFs on the minerals. Even if they have an absurd 200hp, the FF's won't ever last the full 45s duration, as workers can kill 200hp in 30s (6.6 dps) to 20s (10 dps). I guess they could mitigate a lot of that by giving it armor, but I dunno beyond that.
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On October 22 2011 11:14 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:12 justBunneh wrote:
Cool, I like the new destructible rocks thing, adds more possibilities :3 Oh god I forgot about that. I literally can't believe that after all the Dustin Browder/destructible rocks jokes, they're actually adding another type of rocks.
lol yeah wtf is up with that shit. I'm tired of all this shit that changes the terrain. Isn't forcefields, rocks on expansions and destructible rocks and debrise blocking paths enough already? ㅡㅡ
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On October 22 2011 11:14 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:12 justBunneh wrote:
Cool, I like the new destructible rocks thing, adds more possibilities :3 Oh god I forgot about that. I literally can't believe that after all the Dustin Browder/destructible rocks jokes, they're actually adding another type of rocks.
What exactly is wrong with collapsible rocks? There were BW maps that used Assimilators for a similar thing, right?
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Any comments about balance at this point are totally ridiculous. ANYTHING can be balanced out given enough changes to other units. Everything is on the table. This will be an entirely new ``balancing'' act that will take months of a beta and subsequent adjustments during the regular release, just as we've seen in WoL.
And these new units look cool.
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Please don't post missinformation, entombment targets mineral patches individually.
where are you getting that? the quick clips from the video shows Oracles shutting down many patches with one cast.
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I really hope that carriers and motherships are retained.
It's just not fair to remove them, even if carriers aren't used as much, they represent so much to the starcraft fanbase.
The mothership's spells are not exactly made redundant, vortex still has advantages from stasis and it's the only unit with cloaking field...protoss without such unit feels wrong. Recall on mothership is different from Nexus since you can move it around plus units don't get stunned.
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Um... how's Terran going to do low/high ground siege against Zerg now with a Lair tech pull from the flying Viper?! That seriously sounds OP as hell.
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On October 22 2011 11:18 GentleDrill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:14 The KY wrote:On October 22 2011 11:12 justBunneh wrote:
Cool, I like the new destructible rocks thing, adds more possibilities :3 Oh god I forgot about that. I literally can't believe that after all the Dustin Browder/destructible rocks jokes, they're actually adding another type of rocks. What exactly is wrong with collapsible rocks? There were BW maps that used Assimilators for a similar thing, right?
Hey man, there's nothing wrong with it. But come on, it's pretty funny.
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On October 22 2011 11:19 Woizit wrote:
Um... how's Terran going to do low/high ground siege against Zerg now with a Lair tech pull from the flying Viper?! That seriously sounds OP as hell.
You have to zone them with marines and vikings, I guess. I think David Kim said that it was high energy, like 125 so it couldn't be spammed.
I still want the Viper's kidnap to be gone, though.
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Feel as if Zerg will be even weaker in early game-anti-air and detection with Oracles shutting down spore crawlers and non-spammable overseers.
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On October 22 2011 11:03 Lazerlike42 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 10:59 Ryder. wrote:On October 22 2011 10:54 Lazerlike42 wrote:On October 22 2011 10:50 Klyberess wrote:On October 22 2011 10:43 Cyro wrote:On October 22 2011 10:41 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On October 22 2011 10:37 Yosen3002 wrote:On October 22 2011 10:34 Disquiet wrote:
Why don't people like the protoss + terran units, I think they are cool, I especially like the reaper change and turning the thor into a true super unit. Is it just because there are more zergs on TL? You cant be serious about that. The reaper change is kinda wayne and the Thor change is the most retarded thing in the whole addon. I was happy they removed the mothership, but then i heard they did the same thing to the thor and was like wtf? Other than that i like the new terran units(shredder ftw), their design is still quite lame though. And as a zergplayer i really kinda feel for the protoss guys, because id be pretty pissed seeing these new units. Its like someone went 'What does protoss need.... I know, more ways to be an obnoxious cunt'. No, no that is definitely not what protoss need. Phoenix, sentries, void rays, prism allins are all obnoxious and annoying as hell --- they needed solid units not more flimsy shit that can create wins after which your opponent wants to punch you in the face for being such an annoying bastard. Also reaper change just made them pretty much useless vs zerg... No damage to buildings means reaper bunker rushes are 100% dead. Gonna be annoying as shit vs terran tho, they run in, kill a marine, run out with red hit points, come back full --; "flimsy shit that can create wins after which your opponent wants to punch you in the face for being such an annoying bastard." Why does this remind me so much of TvP bio, hellion drops, conc shell kiting constantly, cloaked banshees with observer snipes and half a dozen other all ins? conc shell is an all-in? wtf are you on about? none of the things you mentioned are really all-ins . . . Yeah, I mean, really none of those things can straight-up win the game. Cloaked banshees either come late enough that you really deserve to lose if you don't already have detection, or are at such a tremendous investment if they come early that you should be able to push immediately and do at least as much damage to the Terran as he's done to you. Hellion drops should be fairly easy to take care of with warpgate. Bio is great until a 2 colossus or a couple of HTs come out with storm, after which it is terrible. Yeah terran never continue making bio after colossus or storm are out do they... Just a question have you ever watched a PvT game? Terran keeps making bio because it's still the best composition vs. Protoss, as Mech is currently far too immobile, but that doesn't meant storm/colossus isn't extremely strong against bio.
:o I had no idea Terran bio was struggling against Toss...
Maybe they should buff EMP to help them out?
Anyway regarding the changes I think Replicator will definitely be removed...seems way too hard to balance for in every situation, so will either be restricted to near uselessness, OP or removed. Its also such an uninspiring unit, I mean cmon why should be have to copy our opponents units? I would bet if terran was given this unit they would never even use it.
It is also one unit that would be unarguably, 100% useless in a mirror matchup... Would be good to use for some epic manner funzies though.
Oracle just seems really gimmicky... It looks expensive and fragile, and again would be ridiculously hard to find balance between OP (having to pull half your army back to destrow it) and useless (leaving a spine crawler/few marines at each base). Being able to see what is produced is somewhat redundant, as you should be able to make educated guesses based on scouting. The phase ability is like contaminate, but against zerg it was stated you could remove their building to prevent them from being able to make that unit, something else that will be an absolute bitch to balance, since it is seriously game breaking if they don't do it right...
Can't believe they actually brought back the Tempest from alpha...surely there was some reason why they decided not to use it in the first place? Either way it sounds like Blizzard's answer to a question nobody asked...
On the plus side, mass recall from nexus sounds good (except there MUST be some sort of restriction on it because it sounds way too strong as it is) and the 25 energy cannon ability sounds ok, mainly for use for holding off very early rushes (agaisnt light units only) and maybe for help defending drops... At least now we have a choice on what to use nexus energy on, instead of just spamming it on any building we can see.
Zerg getting some serious buffs; upgrade for baneling burrow movement, ultralisk burrow charge, hydralisk speed?! Can't complain about that.
Terran units I like; no flashy gimmicks, they do they job they are needed to do. Don't know whats going on with the hero Thor though, especially after Mothership removal...
Anyway TLDR: hopefully there is much more to come/much that will change, removing carrier + mothership and replacing with a further 3 gimmick units that protoss doesn't really need just sounds like Blizzard taking a huge dump on Protoss and passing it off as creativity.
Give us a pre-T3 counter to marines and something decent to harass with!
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Toss still needs a cheap, fast viable low tech unit.
its funny that protoss are still going to struggle with countering basic T/Z units while Z and T gets advanced space controlling strategy units. I guess its good that protoss finally gets an answer to mass muta, altough an overpriced one. But while we are getting that, the other races get much more advanced and fun stuff. Its like Terran and Zergs are graduating Law school while toss is still stuck in elementary school.
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On October 22 2011 10:59 Ciraxis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 10:53 The KY wrote:On October 22 2011 10:53 Warpish wrote:
And one more thing....Overseers are fine as they are. They thought they were boring, they'd intended to have a more versatile sort of air spellcaster not just a detecting overlord. So that's what they did. The Overseer removal is the most pointless thing ever. It was already versatile enough, having being morphed from Overlord, and don't forget they had Changelings too. I've seen several games where the Overseer has actually made the winning difference for a player. Saving the Overseer at 2 HP and then using it later for detection against DTs. Or morphing into an Overseer while under attack, and then moving it around and getting a Changeling to continue scouting while the Overseer gets destroyed. Lots of creative things can be done here. I don't see why this was a necessary unit removal. If the Overseer is not versatile or creative enough, why not get rid of the Observer? It just seems rather odd and pathetic.
Well, the obs is a purely scouting unit with a very low cost and constantly cloaked, compared with a huge flying squid who can drop a unit that looks friendly....Sorry I dont see how anyone can say the overseer was a good unit, it was a neccessary unit, not a good one.
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Wasn't the Tempest in the WoL Beta just a different type of carrier with ground shields? The current Tempest only shares the name I believe Ryder.
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On October 22 2011 11:19 Woizit wrote:
Um... how's Terran going to do low/high ground siege against Zerg now with a Lair tech pull from the flying Viper?! That seriously sounds OP as hell.
so what ur saying is u want zerg to be completly defenseless/cost inefficient against siege tanks like they are now? the problem with siege tanks right now is that marine tank is stupidly cost effective against zerg because they dont have proper defenses against them.
dont complain now that we actually have a COST EFFECTIVE unit to deal with tanks now. no longer do we have to suicide thousands and thousands of gas and minerals into a army that is mostly just minerals and barely any gas. infact the only gas comes from the tanks/medivacs.
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On October 22 2011 11:21 lariat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:19 Woizit wrote:
Um... how's Terran going to do low/high ground siege against Zerg now with a Lair tech pull from the flying Viper?! That seriously sounds OP as hell. You have to zone them with marines and vikings, I guess. I think David Kim said that it was high energy, like 125 so it couldn't be spammed. I still want the Viper's kidnap to be gone, though.
They better not  Zerg needs some huge threats finally ^-^
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"Its like someone went 'What does protoss need.... I know, more ways to be an obnoxious cunt'"
This is funny, because when I think of the most dominant, iconic Protoss builds in BW over the years, "obnoxious" is exactly what springs to mind. or specifically, overpriced units of fairly limited cost efficiency that are crazy effective at certain gimmicks, in certain combinations, or when using certain key abilities. The original Bisu build, for example--picking off detection, then killing with DTs (which are straight up one of the most "gimmicky" units in the game--either their gimmick works and you win because there's no detection, or they're totally shutdown). How is that not "gimmicky" stuff that made Zergs want to punch things? Or the fast stasis field build Best used when he was absolutely dominating PvP (which was, if we're being honest, really not that dissimilar to abusing forcefield), or Arbiter play in PvT generally. If you don't like units that rely on "gimmicks" or weird mechanics to be successful, I don't think you really like Protoss, because it has always been a race with expensive units with strange mechanics that can be really abused in certain combinations.
edit: Basically, Zergs losing to Bisu during his peak, or other Toss who got stomped be Best when he looked unstoppable in PvP, ALWAYS looked like they wanted to punch things. Making your opponent want to punch things is about as archetypally Protossy as it gets.
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On October 22 2011 11:25 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:19 Woizit wrote:
Um... how's Terran going to do low/high ground siege against Zerg now with a Lair tech pull from the flying Viper?! That seriously sounds OP as hell. so what ur saying is u want zerg to be completly defenseless/cost inefficient against siege tanks like they are now? the problem with siege tanks right now is that marine tank is stupidly cost effective against zerg because they dont have proper defenses against them. dont complain now that we actually have a COST EFFECTIVE unit to deal with tanks now.
lol broodlord infestor?
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On October 22 2011 11:25 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 11:19 Woizit wrote:
Um... how's Terran going to do low/high ground siege against Zerg now with a Lair tech pull from the flying Viper?! That seriously sounds OP as hell. so what ur saying is u want zerg to be completly defenseless/cost inefficient against siege tanks like they are now? the problem with siege tanks right now is that marine tank is stupidly cost effective against zerg because they dont have proper defenses against them. dont complain now that we actually have a COST EFFECTIVE unit to deal with tanks now.
Mass banelings do very well against it. Like, 50, 60, or 70 of them at a time. It's starting to show up in some of the tournaments and high level play I've seen. Against Siege tanks, trading 20 banelings are not that great. Trading 50+ of them does tremendous damage, and Zerg can resupply much faster than Terran, especially if Terran needs to remake siege tanks.
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EPT
