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On October 17 2011 12:57 DrainX wrote:So bad that they are still using the double elimination format + extended series for the main event  The finals are always an anticlimax where it is almost impossible for the player coming from the loser brackets to win if they two players have faced each other earlier. Just look at the Huk vs MC finals at Orlando. :/
Or the player that won the first time is the better player so it is normal he wins again.
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What I want to know is how motbob mixed up the seeds.
It goes (according the image):
16-9-8-1
13-12-5-4
14-11-6-3
15-10-7-2
Maybe I'm bad at patterns, but that just doesn't make any sense.
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On October 18 2011 17:12 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 12:57 DrainX wrote:So bad that they are still using the double elimination format + extended series for the main event The finals are always an anticlimax where it is almost impossible for the player coming from the loser brackets to win if they two players have faced each other earlier. Just look at the Huk vs MC finals at Orlando. :/ Or the player that won the first time is the better player so it is normal he wins again.
Don't want to turn this into another extended series debate, but that's part of the point; if the player has demonstrated himself to be superior, starting with a lead makes the series even more anticlimactic.
I really hope all of the players show up! Since (I think) this will not be conflicting with GSL, and the prize pool is so large, I think all the Koreans will come. Seeds won't be passing to the top 25-30 anymore, that's for sure.
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On October 17 2011 13:11 Goibon wrote:
I love the advantage given to the higher seeded players. Given the prize pool structure, and how MLG puts all their eggs into the providence basket, its only makes perfect sense to me to reward the fuck out of those who continually put up results over the season.
I just pray we get a true Bo7 finals.
Yeah it really makes true and total sense when an MLG champion isn't in the top 16.
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On October 18 2011 17:17 Hnnngg wrote:
What I want to know is how motbob mixed up the seeds.
It goes (according the image):
16-9-8-1
13-12-5-4
14-11-6-3
15-10-7-2
Maybe I'm bad at patterns, but that just doesn't make any sense.
look at it like this
ROW1 16-9-8-1
ROW2 15-10-7-2
ROW3 14-11-6-3
ROW4 13-12-5-4
its a snaking pattern.
then they switch a few rows around so that the 1 and 2 seeds could hypothetically meet at the finals
ROW1 16-9-8-1
ROW4 13-12-5-4
ROW3 14-11-6-3
ROW2 15-10-7-2
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On October 18 2011 18:06 alexlw92 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 17:17 Hnnngg wrote:
What I want to know is how motbob mixed up the seeds.
It goes (according the image):
16-9-8-1
13-12-5-4
14-11-6-3
15-10-7-2
Maybe I'm bad at patterns, but that just doesn't make any sense.
look at it like this ROW1 16-9-8-1 ROW2 15-10-7-2 ROW3 14-11-6-3 ROW4 13-12-5-4 its a snaking pattern. then they switch a few rows around so that the 1 and 2 seeds could hypothetically meet at the finals ROW1 16-9-8-1 ROW4 13-12-5-4 ROW3 14-11-6-3 ROW2 15-10-7-2
Kind of gross, especially considering how they already know the players. MLG hasn't manipulated their brackets EVER EVER EVER (Sometimes to the dismay of fans, "Wtf 5 protoss in Group D") but their consistency in non-manipulation is their strength.
Their original way of seeding into groups (which is an applicable way of seeding the championship bracket) isn't even bad. Being in a championship bracket is strong no matter what, 1st and 2nd could definitely face each eventually (not like in regular Pool play where 1st and 2nd in pool play sometimes never meet). Forcing it to their liking just seems "non-MLG".
I was just wondering if this was somehow figured out by motbob or... not.
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On October 18 2011 17:12 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 12:57 DrainX wrote:So bad that they are still using the double elimination format + extended series for the main event The finals are always an anticlimax where it is almost impossible for the player coming from the loser brackets to win if they two players have faced each other earlier. Just look at the Huk vs MC finals at Orlando. :/ Or the player that won the first time is the better player so it is normal he wins again.
That's faulty logic. Stephano beat stc 3-1, then stc beat Stephano 2-0. Idra beat Boxer 2-0, then if not for extended series Boxer would've won 2-1
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On October 18 2011 18:42 Zeroxk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 17:12 -Archangel- wrote:On October 17 2011 12:57 DrainX wrote:So bad that they are still using the double elimination format + extended series for the main event The finals are always an anticlimax where it is almost impossible for the player coming from the loser brackets to win if they two players have faced each other earlier. Just look at the Huk vs MC finals at Orlando. :/ Or the player that won the first time is the better player so it is normal he wins again. That's faulty logic. Stephano beat stc 3-1, then stc beat Stephano 2-0. Idra beat Boxer 2-0, then if not for extended series Boxer would've won 2-1
not really faulty logic
wouldnt you say if you beat someone 2-0 you are the favored to beat him again 1 hour later?
its of course not always true but in most cases it is and if you go about it from a logic point of view its of course logic to think that the player who won a few hours earlier should win again
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On October 18 2011 20:29 sVnteen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 18:42 Zeroxk wrote:On October 18 2011 17:12 -Archangel- wrote:On October 17 2011 12:57 DrainX wrote:So bad that they are still using the double elimination format + extended series for the main event The finals are always an anticlimax where it is almost impossible for the player coming from the loser brackets to win if they two players have faced each other earlier. Just look at the Huk vs MC finals at Orlando. :/ Or the player that won the first time is the better player so it is normal he wins again. That's faulty logic. Stephano beat stc 3-1, then stc beat Stephano 2-0. Idra beat Boxer 2-0, then if not for extended series Boxer would've won 2-1 not really faulty logic wouldnt you say if you beat someone 2-0 you are the favored to beat him again 1 hour later? its of course not always true but in most cases it is and if you go about it from a logic point of view its of course logic to think that the player who won a few hours earlier should win again
I think it's been proven wrong many times. If the two players are close in skill then the first result doesn't mean much, it just means one player won. There have been lots of examples where one player would've won if not for extended series, Boxer vs IdrA, ThorZaIN vs MC, TLO vs Incontrol, Hero vs DRG etc.
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On October 18 2011 18:21 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 18:06 alexlw92 wrote:On October 18 2011 17:17 Hnnngg wrote:
What I want to know is how motbob mixed up the seeds.
It goes (according the image):
16-9-8-1
13-12-5-4
14-11-6-3
15-10-7-2
Maybe I'm bad at patterns, but that just doesn't make any sense.
look at it like this ROW1 16-9-8-1 ROW2 15-10-7-2 ROW3 14-11-6-3 ROW4 13-12-5-4 its a snaking pattern. then they switch a few rows around so that the 1 and 2 seeds could hypothetically meet at the finals ROW1 16-9-8-1 ROW4 13-12-5-4 ROW3 14-11-6-3 ROW2 15-10-7-2 Kind of gross, especially considering how they already know the players. MLG hasn't manipulated their brackets EVER EVER EVER (Sometimes to the dismay of fans, "Wtf 5 protoss in Group D") but their consistency in non-manipulation is their strength. Their original way of seeding into groups (which is an applicable way of seeding the championship bracket) isn't even bad. Being in a championship bracket is strong no matter what, 1st and 2nd could definitely face each eventually (not like in regular Pool play where 1st and 2nd in pool play sometimes never meet). Forcing it to their liking just seems "non-MLG". I was just wondering if this was somehow figured out by motbob or... not.
The original way of seeding the groups is A gets 1-8-9-16, B gets 2-7-10-15, C gets 3-6-11-14, D gets 4-5-12-13. In the Championship Bracket sees A1 play D1 and B1 play C1 in the upper bracket semis.
Theoretically, the top seed should win their group, so seed 1 plays seed 4, seed 2 plays seed 3 in the semis. Assuming the same theory applies to the Providence bracket, this is absolutely no different - #1 should win Row 1 to play #4 who won Row 2, and #3 will win Row 3 and play #2 who won Row 4.
There was no "forcing" it or "manipulating" going on at all.
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On October 18 2011 17:17 Hnnngg wrote:
What I want to know is how motbob mixed up the seeds.
It goes (according the image):
16-9-8-1
13-12-5-4
14-11-6-3
15-10-7-2
Maybe I'm bad at patterns, but that just doesn't make any sense.
This the regular way to do the seeds, 1 got the "easiest" opponents, #4 the hardest.
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On October 18 2011 18:06 alexlw92 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 17:17 Hnnngg wrote:
What I want to know is how motbob mixed up the seeds.
It goes (according the image):
16-9-8-1
13-12-5-4
14-11-6-3
15-10-7-2
Maybe I'm bad at patterns, but that just doesn't make any sense.
look at it like this ROW1 16-9-8-1 ROW2 15-10-7-2 ROW3 14-11-6-3 ROW4 13-12-5-4 its a snaking pattern. then they switch a few rows around so that the 1 and 2 seeds could hypothetically meet at the finals ROW1 16-9-8-1 ROW4 13-12-5-4 ROW3 14-11-6-3 ROW2 15-10-7-2
This is a really, really good way of thinking about it, if people don't understand how the championship bracket was set up (MLG always snakes the rows like this).
It's just unfortunate that IdrA got screwed lol
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Garbage format, even worse then the one they use for regular tourneys. The advantage from a high seed is simply insane. You only need to win a few series to win the whole damn thing, and only win one to get a super high finish. People who aren't seeded might just as well not bother showing up, given the amount of games they have to grind out just to get a shot a money finish.
Besides, it means far fewer games from the higher seeds who also happen to be fan favorites, so you screw the viewers as well.
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On October 18 2011 21:39 Lann555 wrote:
Besides, it means far fewer games from the higher seeds who also happen to be fan favorites, so you screw the viewers as well.
Just want to quote this because it's a really good point that I hadn't even thought about. One of the best parts of MLG is the sheer volume of games from pool play and multiple streams, but if all our favorite players only get a few matches in, what's the point?
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Although yes Idra is in a much tougher bracket, he still only has to beat just one player from his bracket and he'll move on to play the winner of the other bracket. It's not like he has #16 seed.
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On October 18 2011 21:27 michielbrands wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 17:17 Hnnngg wrote:
What I want to know is how motbob mixed up the seeds.
It goes (according the image):
16-9-8-1
13-12-5-4
14-11-6-3
15-10-7-2
Maybe I'm bad at patterns, but that just doesn't make any sense.
This the regular way to do the seeds, 1 got the "easiest" opponents, #4 the hardest.
Correct. Assuming favorites always win, the highest seed gets the lowest seed for every round (adding the competitors' seed numbers should give you the same value for each match in a round).
This is a different system than what they did to put pool players into the championship brackets in the last 5 events, but makes more sense given the lack of pool play. It's not entirely a guess, however, because they used they same system for the Open Brackets.
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Assuming IdrA loses both his opening match, his lower bracket match, and then goes on to bomb his placement matches and takes twelfth, mathematically the worst I believe he can finish is 6th. MMA has to finish 3rd to his 12th to overtake him, while Kiwikaki has to finish 2nd. SLush can also overcome IdrA with a 2nd place finish, but then Kiwikaki either has to win, or does not overtake. Ret has the same scenario. Then, from MC to SeleCT, all of them must win to overtake IdrA in the rankings. Given that only one person can win, only one can finish second, and then only MMA can finish third, that leaves only Huk and Naniwa left to be in spots to overtake him (and as long as they finish 11th and 10th, respectively, they do).
Winning his opening match guarantees him 6th place points minimum, which will leave only MMA, NaNiWa and Huk mathematically capable of overtaking him (and only MMA if he wins) and guarantee him a 4th place finish in the final ranks.
A top 4 finish gives him a guaranteed minimum of 3rd place in the final ranks.
Other than that, he has to outplace Huk straight up to finish ahead of him in the ranks, and he has to either finish higher than Naniwa from 1st to 8th, or one place behind him from 9th-12th (Naniwa 9th being the highest place NaNiWa achieves) to beat out Naniwa in the final rankings.
On October 18 2011 18:01 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 13:11 Goibon wrote:
I love the advantage given to the higher seeded players. Given the prize pool structure, and how MLG puts all their eggs into the providence basket, its only makes perfect sense to me to reward the fuck out of those who continually put up results over the season.
I just pray we get a true Bo7 finals. Yeah it really makes true and total sense when an MLG champion isn't in the top 16.
Think of the MLG Pro Circuit like the NASCAR Cup season, and Providence is the entire Chase for the Cup in one event.
Players may win events, like racers will win races. That doesn't guarantee them a spot in the Championship Bracket or the Chase. Consistent performance throughout the season guarantees the spot, while wins boost your placement.
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MVP didn't make the cut. I am surprised, until now I always thought winning one tournament would secure you a spot. Maybe he will come anyway  .
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On October 19 2011 23:44 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:Assuming IdrA loses both his opening match, his lower bracket match, and then goes on to bomb his placement matches and takes twelfth, mathematically the worst I believe he can finish is 6th. MMA has to finish 3rd to his 12th to overtake him, while Kiwikaki has to finish 2nd. SLush can also overcome IdrA with a 2nd place finish, but then Kiwikaki either has to win, or does not overtake. Ret has the same scenario. Then, from MC to SeleCT, all of them must win to overtake IdrA in the rankings. Given that only one person can win, only one can finish second, and then only MMA can finish third, that leaves only Huk and Naniwa left to be in spots to overtake him (and as long as they finish 11th and 10th, respectively, they do). Winning his opening match guarantees him 6th place points minimum, which will leave only MMA, NaNiWa and Huk mathematically capable of overtaking him (and only MMA if he wins) and guarantee him a 4th place finish in the final ranks. A top 4 finish gives him a guaranteed minimum of 3rd place in the final ranks. Other than that, he has to outplace Huk straight up to finish ahead of him in the ranks, and he has to either finish higher than Naniwa from 1st to 8th, or one place behind him from 9th-12th (Naniwa 9th being the highest place NaNiWa achieves) to beat out Naniwa in the final rankings.
Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 18:01 Silidons wrote:On October 17 2011 13:11 Goibon wrote:
I love the advantage given to the higher seeded players. Given the prize pool structure, and how MLG puts all their eggs into the providence basket, its only makes perfect sense to me to reward the fuck out of those who continually put up results over the season.
I just pray we get a true Bo7 finals. Yeah it really makes true and total sense when an MLG champion isn't in the top 16. Think of the MLG Pro Circuit like the NASCAR Cup season, and Providence is the entire Chase for the Cup in one event. Players may win events, like racers will win races. That doesn't guarantee them a spot in the Championship Bracket or the Chase. Consistent performance throughout the season guarantees the spot, while wins boost your placement.
Either you or me are confused as to the points system. As far as I know, your final points placing is completely irrelevant. The points you accumulate in the season leading up to Providence determine your seeding in it but that is all. The prize money is distributed based on your placing in this tournament, getting points for your placing is pointless because it is the final event in the season right?
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EPT
