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Stephano contract situation - Page 107

Forum Index > SC2 General
3152 CommentsPost a Reply
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Lack of content, flaming (of the French or anyone) and useless posts will be punished. Please keep it from being too inflammatory and keep discussion on-topic. -semioldguy (p.103)

Update: Please read http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267506#1 and continue the discussion there.
Chloroplaste
Profile Joined February 2011
France281 Posts
September 19 2011 23:06 GMT
#2121
hum I wanted to talk about Cruncher sry

User was warned for this post
TheBanana
Profile Joined December 2010
Norway2183 Posts
September 19 2011 23:07 GMT
#2122
Current Power Ranking:

1) Col - Seems like they have done nothing wrong, and they have the last word.

2) MillenColin_Stephano - Don't sign contracts you do not aim to fulfil.

3) Mill - Made outrageous accusations and disappeared.

4) gulbanana - You're killing bananas.
If you're not getting better faster than everybody else, you're getting worse.
Mordiford
Profile Joined April 2011
4448 Posts
September 19 2011 23:07 GMT
#2123
On September 20 2011 08:05 Djzapz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 07:57 Megiddosc wrote:
On September 20 2011 07:51 Djzapz wrote:
I don't know what French laws are like, but (with reserve) I would guess that Stephano can probably do whatever the hell he wants and there's no way in hell coL will be able to extort money from him for costing them OH SO MUCH MONEY AND EFFORT in the couple of hours he was part of the team.

Do people just not know the meaning of simple words anymore?

Obtain (something) by force, threats, or other unfair means.

Use of the word "extort" was perfectly correct. Which basically gives the answer: no.. not all of them.

Luckily I'm French Canadian and I can teach you a thing or two.


You think taking legal action in regards to a breach of contract is extortion? What the fuck?
Jakkerr
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands2549 Posts
September 19 2011 23:07 GMT
#2124
There is only a few things that can happen in this situation:

-The contract isn't legal so this problem will be over quick.

-The contract is legal, if this is the case Millenium and Stephano have a big problem, since legally Stephano has to play for Complexity.
This situation can only be fixed by Millenium compensating Complexity financially because legally it would be a 'player-transfer'.
taLbuk
Profile Joined April 2010
Madagascar1879 Posts
September 19 2011 23:08 GMT
#2125
On September 20 2011 08:02 Agathon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 07:57 L3g3nd_ wrote:
On September 20 2011 07:55 Agathon wrote:
On September 20 2011 07:54 Vandalman wrote:
On September 20 2011 07:50 Capook wrote:
It seems pretty obvious that Millenium (and Stephano) are in the wrong here. All this loyalty before law garbage. Reminds me of korea (in a bad way).


Agreed!

Not sure about the legal side, but just a bad move on mil. and Stephanos part. Lost many fans because of this situation.


Or a great manipulation move from CoL


was gonna respond, but then i saw location: France, so obvious bias


In fact i'm pretty objective. I know that i dont know a fuckin thing of that miss, i wasn't there, i didn't read contracts, i didn't take any part into discution.

Like you.

You and me should tell the same thing : I dont kown the fuck what append !

I just try to open your eyes on your...blindness...


I appreciate your objectiveness, but please, opening that guys eyes on his "blindness" of what? Thinking coL did this as a manipulative motive? Rofl.
dSoda
Profile Joined April 2011
United States122 Posts
September 19 2011 23:08 GMT
#2126
Its not like stephano was actually paid any money by complexity yet. (at least i doubt it) Sure complexity can try to sue for 1 day's worth of damages, but come on people. If they're serious about "legitimizing e-sports" then a 3 am contract is definitely not that.
Wuster
Profile Joined May 2011
1974 Posts
September 19 2011 23:08 GMT
#2127
On September 20 2011 08:02 Chloroplaste wrote:
coL lineup is sligthly behind Millenium team
Come on, Machine, Drewbie? They have some players who are not bad but seriously?


Well granted Drewbie isn't great (and as mentioned Machine is on EG).

But Col has a partnership with MVP, so people like DRG and Genius, Keen, ect are available for training when you go to Korea (which is where Drewbie currently is), and technically all those high foreigner finished DRG's been putting up have been *for* Complexity.
Sworn
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada920 Posts
September 19 2011 23:08 GMT
#2128
Honestly I don't know what to believe with everything that coL. has been involved in lately it makes me really wonder how they conduct themselves. They always issue a statement that makes them to be the good guys but if they are always so in the right why do they attract so many controversies. w/e my thoughts.
"Duty is heavy as a mountain, death is light as a feather." CJ Entus Fighting! <3 Effort
HotShizz
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
France710 Posts
September 19 2011 23:09 GMT
#2129
On September 20 2011 07:59 Loxley wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 07:58 BuddhaMonk wrote:
On September 20 2011 07:51 gulbanana wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:42 Mordiford wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:35 gulbanana wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:28 Myles wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:26 gulbanana wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:23 zhurai wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:

Stephano signs contract with col

Stephano change his mind

coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it

Stephano and mil look like idiots

case closed


All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

you forgot

now people don't care about contracts because they can just "change their mind"
do you somehow genuinely think that people shouldn't be allowed to quit their job? what century are you from?


I live in the 21st century where contracts (should) mean something. So no, I don't think if you sign a contract saying you'll be with a company for x days/months/years/whatever, that you can quit said contract whenever you want. Not with out consequences at least.
barbaric. anybody should be able to quit their job, with a given notice period. as is the case in basically every country in the world. i hear some u.s. states don't actually allow that, which is insane - you can really sign your life away for X months or years without a chance to go back on it? surely not.


How the fuck is it barbaric? It's absolutely civilized, you agree to something, you go through with it. You change your mind, you both discuss it and if the person you agreed to it with is alright with it, they let you off. If you're of age and not mentally handicapped, you're expected to have the ability to judge whether or not you want to commit to something.

We've seen a mutual agreement to be released from a contract in the case of Destiny, in this case however, Mil and Stephano basically went behind Complexity's back and threw them under the bus. At this point, they have to take a stand to make sure that this shit isn't the norm.

If you want this game and this community to forever be a bunch of kids playing some games for a bit of money, then it's fine, they should let it slide and let kids do whatever they want. But that's massively detrimental for eSports as a legitimate industry and sport.

judgement can be wrong. there are absolutely situations where it's crucial that workers have the right to leave an onerous job; consider someone who starts doing mining, or other hard physical labour, then finds that they're unable to hack it. or consider someone who starts getting sexually harassed in their workplace but is unable to prove it.

also, the labour market wouldn't work if people weren't allowed to quit jobs, since there would be no pool of labour!


See this is the part where any argument you may have once had loses all credibility. Next you'll be comparing the coL work environment to Nazi concentration camps.


There we have it. Page 105, Godwins law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Show nested quote +
Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.


Nice, although later than i expected.


Holy poo. I had no clue such a thing existed. I learned something new today. LOLOLOLOLOLZ Thanks for that.
Kieofire
Profile Joined June 2011
United States1809 Posts
September 19 2011 23:09 GMT
#2130
On September 20 2011 08:08 McDrew wrote:
Its not like stephano was actually paid any money by complexity yet. (at least i doubt it) Sure complexity can try to sue for 1 day's worth of damages, but come on people. If they're serious about "legitimizing e-sports" then a 3 am contract is definitely not that.


Like it has been said before, he did not have to sign the contract at 3:00 a.m. it was his choice to sign it whenever he wanted.
L3g3nd_
Profile Joined July 2010
New Zealand10461 Posts
September 19 2011 23:10 GMT
#2131
On September 20 2011 08:08 Sworn wrote:
Honestly I don't know what to believe with everything that coL. has been involved in lately it makes me really wonder how they conduct themselves. They always issue a statement that makes them to be the good guys but if they are always so in the right why do they attract so many controversies. w/e my thoughts.

cant blame the good guys for being the good guys....
https://twitter.com/#!/IrisAnother
Vendor
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada115 Posts
September 19 2011 23:10 GMT
#2132
On September 20 2011 08:08 Sworn wrote:
Honestly I don't know what to believe with everything that coL. has been involved in lately it makes me really wonder how they conduct themselves. They always issue a statement that makes them to be the good guys but if they are always so in the right why do they attract so many controversies. w/e my thoughts.



And what have those things been exactly?
Styvorama
Profile Joined June 2011
United States7 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 23:11:35
September 19 2011 23:11 GMT
#2133
On September 20 2011 08:08 McDrew wrote:
Its not like stephano was actually paid any money by complexity yet. (at least i doubt it) Sure complexity can try to sue for 1 day's worth of damages, but come on people. If they're serious about "legitimizing e-sports" then a 3 am contract is definitely not that.


Well then what do you suggest as a correct time to sign contracts considering that this is a world wide industry. Its gotta be late at night/early in the morning for someone, or the will never be able to talk, barter, or come to any agreement.

If you think the time has anything to do with it then you are a fool. How else do you think international business agreements are made?


EDIT: someone, not something
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10687 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 23:12:20
September 19 2011 23:11 GMT
#2134
I like him more on Millenium.. But by the sound of it complexity is in the right.


Well... It's probably more drama than anything else anyway... I mean.. There have to be some true professionals on these teams?...
Vandalman
Profile Joined May 2011
United States66 Posts
September 19 2011 23:11 GMT
#2135
On September 20 2011 08:08 McDrew wrote:
Its not like stephano was actually paid any money by complexity yet. (at least i doubt it) Sure complexity can try to sue for 1 day's worth of damages, but come on people. If they're serious about "legitimizing e-sports" then a 3 am contract is definitely not that.



People sign contracts whenever they want. Doesn't matter the time.....what are you talking about!
TLUtv
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada18 Posts
September 19 2011 23:12 GMT
#2136
On September 20 2011 08:00 Avs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 07:59 TLUtv wrote:
On September 20 2011 07:54 Agathon wrote:
On September 20 2011 07:50 Capook wrote:
It seems pretty obvious that Millenium (and Stephano) are in the wrong here. All this loyalty before law garbage. Reminds me of korea (in a bad way).


Tell us your arguments? I'm curious.



Did you not read any of the posts preceding this? Or any of the posts on this thread at all? There has been plenty of valid information, and plenty of drivel, Stop being so ignorant, Stephano is undeniably in the wrong for he has signed a contract and disheveled it, He's made a joke of a legally binding contract, to say he's not in the wrong is just ignorant. I do not have a like for americans nor do I like the french, to be honest I hate most countries, even my own, but too look at this as though he did nothing wrong is just denying the facts that are right before you.


Hey! Don't hate Americans for being Americans. That's totally the wrong way of approaching these different countries. So is saying you hate most countries including your own, eh?


Haha, That obviously wasn't my intention, I don't really hate anyone, I could care less, it doesn't involve me personally, All I was trying to state that if you're hating a specific country then you're hating everyone in it, I stated I hated every country, therefore I would hate everyone, Though I do not, I'm just trying to say that it's Specific people and not the acts of an entire country, If this were war, France and America would be nuking the shit out of eachother while every other country sits back and laughs because the retards are arguing over an sc2 player, The endgame of this entire thread is essentially, Don't break contracts or the majority of the gaming community will look at you as scum, because that is what you are, You're breaching an agreement you came too, You're disrespecting every party involved with the situation, The fact that Millennium even allowed stephano to come back let alone probably begging him, is surprising, He did something without speaking to his managers or even his own lawyers, that's true irresponsibility, and I don't want to be a fan of a player who doesn't care about the people he effects in a direct sense. For example, HuK was obviously offered a great sum by EG, but of course, because he is legally obliged to stay with Liquid until the remainder of his contract, which he did, and look how smoothly that went over, Liquid and EG both somehow became even more loved, all because they cooperated versus playing the deceit game.
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 23:13:17
September 19 2011 23:12 GMT
#2137
On September 20 2011 08:07 Mordiford wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 08:05 Djzapz wrote:
On September 20 2011 07:57 Megiddosc wrote:
On September 20 2011 07:51 Djzapz wrote:
I don't know what French laws are like, but (with reserve) I would guess that Stephano can probably do whatever the hell he wants and there's no way in hell coL will be able to extort money from him for costing them OH SO MUCH MONEY AND EFFORT in the couple of hours he was part of the team.

Do people just not know the meaning of simple words anymore?

Obtain (something) by force, threats, or other unfair means.

Use of the word "extort" was perfectly correct. Which basically gives the answer: no.. not all of them.

Luckily I'm French Canadian and I can teach you a thing or two.


You think taking legal action in regards to a breach of contract is extortion? What the fuck?

Oh all the time, absolutely. There was this disabled lawyer in a wheelchair and he would go from small town to small town, suing businesses which weren't "accessible" (no ramps). From my understanding, many of them settled for around $2000 or something. He made quite a bit of money suing every business in a small town!

That's extortion. Legal extortion, of course, but that's because the law is very much imperfect. It's even pretty much garbage =).

This isn't a breach of contract mind you, obviously, but breaching a brand new international contract for a minor and threatening to sue? Yeah, it's not BS.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Gheed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States972 Posts
September 19 2011 23:12 GMT
#2138
On September 20 2011 08:08 McDrew wrote:
Its not like stephano was actually paid any money by complexity yet. (at least i doubt it) Sure complexity can try to sue for 1 day's worth of damages, but come on people. If they're serious about "legitimizing e-sports" then a 3 am contract is definitely not that.


One could claim that there are intangible damages to the Complexity's reputation. Also the contract may have had prescribed remedies should Stephano or Millenium have broken the terms.
adeezy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1428 Posts
September 19 2011 23:13 GMT
#2139
The thing I have to say is also, why would you even want to have him still if you know he's immature like this? Let him join like Evil Geniuses where this sort of behavior is tolerated

User was warned for this post
I asked my friend how the ratio at a party was, he replied. "Let's just say for every guy there was two dudes."
Snorkle
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1648 Posts
September 19 2011 23:13 GMT
#2140
On September 20 2011 08:05 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, there are a couple of things I would like to ask Complexity.

1. Why is this not set to go under a court of arbitration? Else, it could take years to get it sorted legally. A counrt of arbitration is how it is done in sports. It would also keep it hidden and as such we wouldn't even know about this dispute.
2. Why do we even know about this? Why are you posting legal updates on Twitter? Why are you posting legal threats on the internet?
3. You have not yet suffered any economical damage, and judging from other esports contract, it isn't praxis to add additional breach fees. As such, sueing would be entirely pointless and gain no one nothing regardless of who won. The only winners would be your legal counsel. So why would you?
4. As you likely know, sueing someone internationally isn't viable unless you have major financial muscles, so why are you even spending time on this regardless of the other points?

Both Millennium and Complexity stand out as complete amateurs in this case. Legal threats on the internet, public polemic, no court of arbitration and childish emotional talks of sueing over something that would gain one nothing. If they want to stand out as professionals, this is hardly the way to go about it.

The thing one realizes from this is that esports could use its own court of arbitration at some point. It is basically a few (legally trained) people that all parties agree upon will decide any breaches or disputes. As such, a verdict is very fast, cannot be appealed, is hidden from the public and is often cheaper (due to its speed). It is how it is done in sports, they have their own court of arbitration. It isn't related to what KeSPA is doing and has nothing to do with the game or management in itself, it just settles legal disputes.

Of course, one can use any ordinary court of arbitration for that (which they should have done in this case), it is just that it would be a bit expensive and it may not be very suited to solve disputes directly related to esports or actual gameplay.



Seeing as you are a law student and Jason Lake sold his profitable law firm in order to pursue Esports and he seems to believe he has several legal options and the posting on twitter or reddit is not detrimental to his case, I am going to believe he knows what he is doing.
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