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On September 16 2011 06:30 aquanda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:19 Ammanas wrote:
I am just friggin gold player (more enjoying watching SC2 then playing) but I have to ask one thing: Why the hell do all of you think, you are better in keeping balance then Blizzard is?
I mean, SC1 is perfectly balanced game (yeah, it took a long time), WoW is the best balanced MMORPG by far (well, in PvP Warrhammer is better, but in PvE it has the best balance between classes and WoW never was really a PvP game). Also they have A TON of statistical data (more then anyone, of course) and they have data that no one else has.
The thing is, they are not basing their ballance at some subjective feelings or whatever, they are basing it on statistics. And statistics almost never lie. And I don't mean just basic winning percentage, if it works anything like in WoW, they literally have statistics of everything everyone has done in every game. And they have employees, whose full time job is to analyze those statistics/data.
So let me ask one more time. Why do YOU think, you know better then Blizzard? I am pretty blown away that you are bringing up WoW balance (which is confusing considering how slow and retarded they have been at balancing it since release) in reference to SC2. I don't really care to argue about how broken WoW has been during most of it's lifespan in this thread either. I guess I'll just answer your question with a question. Why do YOU think, WoW has anything to do with SC2 balance?
Well, because both are made by Blizzard? And although the balancing itself of the two games is entirely different (that's just the common sense, I didn't think I have to write it.....), I am just assuming, that the principle of collecting statistical data is the same for both games. And well, it has to be, they really aren't (and can't) pull those balance changes just from observation/playing etc...
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On September 16 2011 06:37 R3N wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:24 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 06:21 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 06:16 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 06:13 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 06:01 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 05:56 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 05:50 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:47 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 05:44 Cloud9157 wrote:
[quote]
But wait... My AoE spell actually requires research+resources... And my Archon requires 12 seconds to form, and 100/300 in resources...
My NP requires research+ resources...And when I'm out of energy I can't form another unit and thus put my thumbs in my mouth and try to look useful. But you can take bases more freely than me and as a result, get so many resources... Plus you don't spend gas on anything other than research/buildings (assuming ling/Infestor). Are we done yet? Wtf? I don't understand, are you insinuating infestors are cheaper than HT?! I do agree infestors is a SLIGHTLY better unit but their still in the same caliber (both way below ghosts LOL) and take roughly the same amount of risk/reward (infestors more risk - believe it or not - but also more reward). I guess HT require more tech (focused). But still take more bases? I'm zerg, that's what I'm supposed to do as a result of my armies (maxed) fail to even take the shields off your deathball. You can't take resources in the equation without considering all factors. Uh, that's not what he said? He said that you have more resources which makes it easier to get more infestors. They're not cheaper but if you're on three bases worth of gas to my two bases worth of gas you can get more gas units than I can. And man, it is becoming annoying hearing all the whining about deathballs still. There have been so many high level games of zergs destroying "deathballs" easily, of zerg beating protoss while on equal bases, etc. Watch replays, compare positioning, tech, upgrades, and army value, and you'll understand why you lost the game opposed to "DEATHBALL IS STRONG". ...... As I said, I'm zerg and not protoss. My units aren't ½ as efficient as yours. That's why I get access to more bases faster than you can. Zerg can't win any half-decent ZvP on equal bases. One might think people figure that out by now.... Here, I'll make ridiculous unfounded statements too: Protoss units are not cost-effective versus zerg. If you prove your statement I'll prove mine. You're also going on a completely different tangent of the original statement that you'll have more infestors than templar. Proven my statement? So you really do believe protoss units are to be as easily massed as zerg? I think you need to enlighten the entire starcraft community and ofc, blizzard about this gospel of truth. As the other way 'round is widely accepted by everyone but you. Also we were talking about gas efficient and you came in straying shit about archons and how roaches beat them. What is the first part even talking about? What? I never said anything remotely like that. And watch any GSL ZvP. Z destroys P utterly in the matchup. This month was like 25% winrate and it would've been lower if protoss didn't one base all-in a couple games. Zerg completely shits on protoss and you are sitting here acting as if stalker/archon kills THREE zerg armies, which has never actually happened. You're just making random inaccurate statements, probably from your experiences in silver league or something, hence my sarcasm. Um, my talking about roaches v archons was in response to saying that roaches are a soft counter and me saying they aren't. That was me responding to a statement, not me going on a tangent. Lol, there are 2 more zergs in code S than 'toss and that "25% winrate" that you pulled from your ass was not far there off (the other way 'round) couple of months ago when zerg had no answer to 'toss a-moving balls. I just got promoted to masters in season 3 where I fail to see any balance issues ZvP but I do understand bronzies and 'toss trolls thinking so as they can't a-move anymore (HT requires 'T' left click  ) And oh roaches aren't a soft-counter to archons? So you think they're a hard-counter? LoL. As I already stated in previous posts, they do ok in midgame not because they're any particularly good against archons but because archons aren't as good at that point, you need allot of them en masse for their AoE to show real effect. That and with roaches scaling terribly , they ain't going to hold anymore. But I dunno why I'm saying this to you as you believe zerg units are as strong as toss individually...
The PvZ win rate is 28~29% in the most recent GSL games.
Ladder win rates for ZvP reflected around 40~41% in Korea when they were struggling vs Stalker / Colossus Deathball.
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On September 16 2011 06:39 titaniumnuts wrote:
This change should also include a decrease of the Infestor's targeting rank. If you are going to force the infestor to be that close, then the opponent should have to target the infestor.
They do, unless your infestor is your closest unit.
I wonder where this "casters have higher priority" myth came from.
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Random player. This is better and I'll take it. They should've made it either a AE slow w/ damage or a 4 sec dot with slow. or a 4 sec dot with 2 seconds of root, 2 secs of no root.
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On September 16 2011 06:37 R3N wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:24 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 06:21 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 06:16 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 06:13 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 06:01 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 05:56 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 05:50 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:47 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 05:44 Cloud9157 wrote:
[quote]
But wait... My AoE spell actually requires research+resources... And my Archon requires 12 seconds to form, and 100/300 in resources...
My NP requires research+ resources...And when I'm out of energy I can't form another unit and thus put my thumbs in my mouth and try to look useful. But you can take bases more freely than me and as a result, get so many resources... Plus you don't spend gas on anything other than research/buildings (assuming ling/Infestor). Are we done yet? Wtf? I don't understand, are you insinuating infestors are cheaper than HT?! I do agree infestors is a SLIGHTLY better unit but their still in the same caliber (both way below ghosts LOL) and take roughly the same amount of risk/reward (infestors more risk - believe it or not - but also more reward). I guess HT require more tech (focused). But still take more bases? I'm zerg, that's what I'm supposed to do as a result of my armies (maxed) fail to even take the shields off your deathball. You can't take resources in the equation without considering all factors. Uh, that's not what he said? He said that you have more resources which makes it easier to get more infestors. They're not cheaper but if you're on three bases worth of gas to my two bases worth of gas you can get more gas units than I can. And man, it is becoming annoying hearing all the whining about deathballs still. There have been so many high level games of zergs destroying "deathballs" easily, of zerg beating protoss while on equal bases, etc. Watch replays, compare positioning, tech, upgrades, and army value, and you'll understand why you lost the game opposed to "DEATHBALL IS STRONG". ...... As I said, I'm zerg and not protoss. My units aren't ½ as efficient as yours. That's why I get access to more bases faster than you can. Zerg can't win any half-decent ZvP on equal bases. One might think people figure that out by now.... Here, I'll make ridiculous unfounded statements too: Protoss units are not cost-effective versus zerg. If you prove your statement I'll prove mine. You're also going on a completely different tangent of the original statement that you'll have more infestors than templar. Proven my statement? So you really do believe protoss units are to be as easily massed as zerg? I think you need to enlighten the entire starcraft community and ofc, blizzard about this gospel of truth. As the other way 'round is widely accepted by everyone but you. Also we were talking about gas efficient and you came in straying shit about archons and how roaches beat them. What is the first part even talking about? What? I never said anything remotely like that. And watch any GSL ZvP. Z destroys P utterly in the matchup. This month was like 25% winrate and it would've been lower if protoss didn't one base all-in a couple games. Zerg completely shits on protoss and you are sitting here acting as if stalker/archon kills THREE zerg armies, which has never actually happened. You're just making random inaccurate statements, probably from your experiences in silver league or something, hence my sarcasm. Um, my talking about roaches v archons was in response to saying that roaches are a soft counter and me saying they aren't. That was me responding to a statement, not me going on a tangent. Lol, there are 2 more zergs in code S than 'toss and that "25% winrate" that you pulled from your ass was not far there off (the other way 'round) couple of months ago when zerg had no answer to 'toss a-moving balls. I just got promoted to masters in season 3 where I fail to see any balance issues ZvP but I do understand bronzies and 'toss trolls thinking so as they can't a-move anymore (HT requires 'T' left click ) And oh roaches aren't a soft-counter to archons? So you think they're a hard-counter? LoL. As I already stated in previous posts, they do ok in midgame not because they're any particularly good against archons but because aren't as good at that point, you need allot of them en masse for their AoE to show real effect. That and with roaches scaling terribly , they ain't going to hold anymore. But I dunno why I'm saying this to you as you believe zerg units are as strong as toss individually...
The 25% winrate I pulled "from my ass" is actually 23.5% in GSL, look it up. While zerg was losing to protoss before, zerg was buffed and began to discover new styles like baneling drops + fungal and now it has been ahead internationally in the matchup since April:
http://i.imgur.com/uaVuw.png
Also look at the Korean graph and please show me where zerg was ever at 25% versus protoss in Korea: http://i.imgur.com/aZDCO.png
The lowest was 42.9%, back in September 2010.
Lmao, you think that you are going to have a large amount of archons (300 gas) and stalkers in the midgame, enough to put a dent into a roach army? Sorry, try some micro for yourself---fungal growth those archons into place, they are 3 range compared to 4 of roaches and if you focus fire then archons will never get a shot off, so yes, roaches are a hard counter to them. Sorry that you can't beat mass archon/stalker with a-moving mass roach?
Roaches do not scale terribly. They scale better with upgrades than stalkers, this is also a fact. They are supply-inefficient, not cost-inefficient. You make up for that by going into high tech units to match protoss high tech units, like infestors and broodlords. Infestor/broodlord is just as good of a deathball as voidray/colossus ever was, and it beats that composition. Watch high level ZvP nowadays so you stop sounding so ignorant.
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NP is still gonna be next-to-useless. This would really be a good time to allow the skill to be used while burrowed so we can at least have some rare "OH-SHIT!" moments when it's used against Siege Tanks, Colossi, etc.
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Decrease range, maybe increase speed of the fester? reduce the unit size?
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On September 16 2011 06:33 Pwnographics wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:19 Ammanas wrote:
I am just friggin gold player (more enjoying watching SC2 then playing) but I have to ask one thing: Why the hell do all of you think, you are better in keeping balance then Blizzard is?
I mean, SC1 is perfectly balanced game (yeah, it took a long time), WoW is the best balanced MMORPG by far (well, in PvP Warrhammer is better, but in PvE it has the best balance between classes and WoW never was really a PvP game). Also they have A TON of statistical data (more then anyone, of course) and they have data that no one else has.
The thing is, they are not basing their ballance at some subjective feelings or whatever, they are basing it on statistics. And statistics almost never lie. And I don't mean just basic winning percentage, if it works anything like in WoW, they literally have statistics of everything everyone has done in every game. And they have employees, whose full time job is to analyze those statistics/data.
So let me ask one more time. Why do YOU think, you know better then Blizzard? And stats do lie, if they want a good set of statistics they should exclude all games except grandmaster league/tournament results. No one but Blizzard cares if protoss has a 90% win rate in gold league and maybe some fucking scrubs in gold league.
I am pretty sure, they stated on numerous occasions, that this is exactly what they are doing. Balancing the game around the best players. Even I am smart enough to not take any statistics from, say, bronze league seriously.
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I dont really understand what some of you are saying. At which point of the game is zerg weak?
Early game they have the ability to make fast banelings without being starved on gas, they can make like 5 spine crawlers WITH an expansion and a spawning pool and gas at like 5 minutes, they can also make roaches without being forced to get a fast gas.
Mid game they can sac an overlord or overseer and make reactionary units to counter any army composition, mostly its just making as many infestors as you have the gas for (lol nice race).
Late game they can still sit on mass infestor, and the only army composition that I have seen as of late that actually counter late game zerg is mass ghost (lol terran 111 code s gsl).
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Well this thread is exploded fast....
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On September 16 2011 06:46 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:33 Pwnographics wrote:On September 16 2011 06:19 Ammanas wrote:
I am just friggin gold player (more enjoying watching SC2 then playing) but I have to ask one thing: Why the hell do all of you think, you are better in keeping balance then Blizzard is?
I mean, SC1 is perfectly balanced game (yeah, it took a long time), WoW is the best balanced MMORPG by far (well, in PvP Warrhammer is better, but in PvE it has the best balance between classes and WoW never was really a PvP game). Also they have A TON of statistical data (more then anyone, of course) and they have data that no one else has.
The thing is, they are not basing their ballance at some subjective feelings or whatever, they are basing it on statistics. And statistics almost never lie. And I don't mean just basic winning percentage, if it works anything like in WoW, they literally have statistics of everything everyone has done in every game. And they have employees, whose full time job is to analyze those statistics/data.
So let me ask one more time. Why do YOU think, you know better then Blizzard? And stats do lie, if they want a good set of statistics they should exclude all games except grandmaster league/tournament results. No one but Blizzard cares if protoss has a 90% win rate in gold league and maybe some fucking scrubs in gold league. I am pretty sure, they stated on numerous occasions, that this is exactly what they are doing. Balancing the game around the best players. Even I am smart enough to not take any statistics from, say, bronze league seriously.
Which is why the stats lie, because they take in account of gold league scrubs.
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On September 16 2011 06:51 Pwnographics wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:46 Ammanas wrote:On September 16 2011 06:33 Pwnographics wrote:On September 16 2011 06:19 Ammanas wrote:
I am just friggin gold player (more enjoying watching SC2 then playing) but I have to ask one thing: Why the hell do all of you think, you are better in keeping balance then Blizzard is?
I mean, SC1 is perfectly balanced game (yeah, it took a long time), WoW is the best balanced MMORPG by far (well, in PvP Warrhammer is better, but in PvE it has the best balance between classes and WoW never was really a PvP game). Also they have A TON of statistical data (more then anyone, of course) and they have data that no one else has.
The thing is, they are not basing their ballance at some subjective feelings or whatever, they are basing it on statistics. And statistics almost never lie. And I don't mean just basic winning percentage, if it works anything like in WoW, they literally have statistics of everything everyone has done in every game. And they have employees, whose full time job is to analyze those statistics/data.
So let me ask one more time. Why do YOU think, you know better then Blizzard? And stats do lie, if they want a good set of statistics they should exclude all games except grandmaster league/tournament results. No one but Blizzard cares if protoss has a 90% win rate in gold league and maybe some fucking scrubs in gold league. I am pretty sure, they stated on numerous occasions, that this is exactly what they are doing. Balancing the game around the best players. Even I am smart enough to not take any statistics from, say, bronze league seriously. Which is why the stats lie, because they take in account of gold league scrubs.
No they don't.
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On September 16 2011 06:50 Zerker wrote:
Well this thread is exploded fast....
TL + zerg nerf = explosion for sure ^^
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United States7483 Posts
On September 16 2011 06:30 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:29 Yaotzin wrote:On September 16 2011 06:24 Whitewing wrote:
You know what guys? Can we stop the Protoss hate on Zerg and the Zerg hate on Protoss? We're both the underdogs here, let's direct our hate at the overpowered Terrans, alright?
YOU HUMAN JERKS. Even Terrans are admitting they're OP now, it's taken all the fun out of complaining about them  Complain about Terrans stealing your thunder by admitting it!
Damn terrans can't even do the decent thing and pretend to be UP like they're supposed to! YOU SUCK TERRANS.
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On September 16 2011 06:41 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:30 aquanda wrote:On September 16 2011 06:19 Ammanas wrote:
I am just friggin gold player (more enjoying watching SC2 then playing) but I have to ask one thing: Why the hell do all of you think, you are better in keeping balance then Blizzard is?
I mean, SC1 is perfectly balanced game (yeah, it took a long time), WoW is the best balanced MMORPG by far (well, in PvP Warrhammer is better, but in PvE it has the best balance between classes and WoW never was really a PvP game). Also they have A TON of statistical data (more then anyone, of course) and they have data that no one else has.
The thing is, they are not basing their ballance at some subjective feelings or whatever, they are basing it on statistics. And statistics almost never lie. And I don't mean just basic winning percentage, if it works anything like in WoW, they literally have statistics of everything everyone has done in every game. And they have employees, whose full time job is to analyze those statistics/data.
So let me ask one more time. Why do YOU think, you know better then Blizzard? I am pretty blown away that you are bringing up WoW balance (which is confusing considering how slow and retarded they have been at balancing it since release) in reference to SC2. I don't really care to argue about how broken WoW has been during most of it's lifespan in this thread either. I guess I'll just answer your question with a question. Why do YOU think, WoW has anything to do with SC2 balance? Well, because both are made by Blizzard? And although the balancing itself of the two games is entirely different (that's just the common sense, I didn't think I have to write it.....), I am just assuming, that the principle of collecting statistical data is the same for both games. And well, it has to be, they really aren't (and can't) pull those balance changes just from observation/playing etc...
You said it yourself. They are entirely different. WoW is pretty much impossible to balance due to the nature of the game. SC2 is not.
Blizzard is balancing SC2 more than fine. It's ridiculous the amount of whining every patch brings. The fact is the vast majority of the people whining are losing because of their macro/micro/game sense... not any imbalance.
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On September 16 2011 06:52 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:51 Pwnographics wrote:On September 16 2011 06:46 Ammanas wrote:On September 16 2011 06:33 Pwnographics wrote:On September 16 2011 06:19 Ammanas wrote:
I am just friggin gold player (more enjoying watching SC2 then playing) but I have to ask one thing: Why the hell do all of you think, you are better in keeping balance then Blizzard is?
I mean, SC1 is perfectly balanced game (yeah, it took a long time), WoW is the best balanced MMORPG by far (well, in PvP Warrhammer is better, but in PvE it has the best balance between classes and WoW never was really a PvP game). Also they have A TON of statistical data (more then anyone, of course) and they have data that no one else has.
The thing is, they are not basing their ballance at some subjective feelings or whatever, they are basing it on statistics. And statistics almost never lie. And I don't mean just basic winning percentage, if it works anything like in WoW, they literally have statistics of everything everyone has done in every game. And they have employees, whose full time job is to analyze those statistics/data.
So let me ask one more time. Why do YOU think, you know better then Blizzard? And stats do lie, if they want a good set of statistics they should exclude all games except grandmaster league/tournament results. No one but Blizzard cares if protoss has a 90% win rate in gold league and maybe some fucking scrubs in gold league. I am pretty sure, they stated on numerous occasions, that this is exactly what they are doing. Balancing the game around the best players. Even I am smart enough to not take any statistics from, say, bronze league seriously. Which is why the stats lie, because they take in account of gold league scrubs. No they don't.
Unfortunately they do, I wish they didn't. ): Whatever, back to playing TERRAN :L
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On September 16 2011 06:53 Pwnographics wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:52 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 06:51 Pwnographics wrote:On September 16 2011 06:46 Ammanas wrote:On September 16 2011 06:33 Pwnographics wrote:On September 16 2011 06:19 Ammanas wrote:
I am just friggin gold player (more enjoying watching SC2 then playing) but I have to ask one thing: Why the hell do all of you think, you are better in keeping balance then Blizzard is?
I mean, SC1 is perfectly balanced game (yeah, it took a long time), WoW is the best balanced MMORPG by far (well, in PvP Warrhammer is better, but in PvE it has the best balance between classes and WoW never was really a PvP game). Also they have A TON of statistical data (more then anyone, of course) and they have data that no one else has.
The thing is, they are not basing their ballance at some subjective feelings or whatever, they are basing it on statistics. And statistics almost never lie. And I don't mean just basic winning percentage, if it works anything like in WoW, they literally have statistics of everything everyone has done in every game. And they have employees, whose full time job is to analyze those statistics/data.
So let me ask one more time. Why do YOU think, you know better then Blizzard? And stats do lie, if they want a good set of statistics they should exclude all games except grandmaster league/tournament results. No one but Blizzard cares if protoss has a 90% win rate in gold league and maybe some fucking scrubs in gold league. I am pretty sure, they stated on numerous occasions, that this is exactly what they are doing. Balancing the game around the best players. Even I am smart enough to not take any statistics from, say, bronze league seriously. Which is why the stats lie, because they take in account of gold league scrubs. No they don't. Unfortunately they do, I wish they didn't. ):
No, they actually don't.
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Could someone explain why np is so op that it needs to be nerfed? 9 range was fine, just think of blinkstalkers, hts, ghosts, even phoenix or just a bunch of high range units like colossi or tanks. People just started to learn how to dea lwith the infestors and np, why does it need a nerf?
Maybe because i a mZerg i dont get it but well..... ;P
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On September 16 2011 06:52 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:51 Pwnographics wrote:On September 16 2011 06:46 Ammanas wrote:On September 16 2011 06:33 Pwnographics wrote:On September 16 2011 06:19 Ammanas wrote:
I am just friggin gold player (more enjoying watching SC2 then playing) but I have to ask one thing: Why the hell do all of you think, you are better in keeping balance then Blizzard is?
I mean, SC1 is perfectly balanced game (yeah, it took a long time), WoW is the best balanced MMORPG by far (well, in PvP Warrhammer is better, but in PvE it has the best balance between classes and WoW never was really a PvP game). Also they have A TON of statistical data (more then anyone, of course) and they have data that no one else has.
The thing is, they are not basing their ballance at some subjective feelings or whatever, they are basing it on statistics. And statistics almost never lie. And I don't mean just basic winning percentage, if it works anything like in WoW, they literally have statistics of everything everyone has done in every game. And they have employees, whose full time job is to analyze those statistics/data.
So let me ask one more time. Why do YOU think, you know better then Blizzard? And stats do lie, if they want a good set of statistics they should exclude all games except grandmaster league/tournament results. No one but Blizzard cares if protoss has a 90% win rate in gold league and maybe some fucking scrubs in gold league. I am pretty sure, they stated on numerous occasions, that this is exactly what they are doing. Balancing the game around the best players. Even I am smart enough to not take any statistics from, say, bronze league seriously. Which is why the stats lie, because they take in account of gold league scrubs. No they don't.
"We increased Zealot build time because we found Proxy 2-Gate to be too powerful at the silver-level of play."
Unfortunately... they do. T_T
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On September 16 2011 06:54 Pred8oar wrote:
Could someone explain why np is so op that it needs to be nerfed? 9 range was fine, just think of blinkstalkers, hts, ghosts, even phoenix or just a bunch of high range units like colossi or tanks. People just started to learn how to dea lwith the infestors and np, why does it need a nerf?
Maybe because i a mZerg i dont get it but well..... ;P
Watch pro PvZs for the best explanation.
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EPT
