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On September 16 2011 06:19 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:05 aWildRATTATA wrote:
I haven't really posted alot on these forums, but alas.
If they nerf NP, they may as well nerf that ridiculous unit called the colossus, it simply has no strategic weaknesses aside from having to build AA to defend it.
It has a ton of health, does a ton of damage, has great mobility due to cliffwalking, is usually safe because of its range, and requires little APM. Getting a magic number of 3-4 colossus isnt hard at all. As far as counters go, Neuralling a colossus is op because all of a sudden a protoss army lacks range to snipe the infestor, lacks the DPS, and you're indeed stuck with a useless corearmy of stalkers and maybe a few sentries.
As a protoss player, I agree that the colossus is a pretty dumb and poorly designed unit. It's health isn't the problem, but more that it is mobile AND has huge dps. Unfortunately, toss is balanced around the colossus (and ht's). Without ht's or colo toss sucks hard. But that's the way the game is. If they nerf the colossus they would have to compensate toss big time, so I don't think it's going to happen.
apparently droves of diamond players disagree and think mass stalker is what toss is balanced around, because thats all protosses use these days. with blink, of course.
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On September 16 2011 06:06 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:52 happyness wrote:On September 16 2011 05:39 BeeNu wrote:On September 16 2011 05:36 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 05:32 happyness wrote:On September 16 2011 05:22 DuneBug wrote:
Bad change.
I'd ask all the protoss players... would you rather be able to make templar or infestors? I'd like to see their answers. If feedback was not smartcast I'd have more sympathy for the protoss.
I doubt this will have too great of an effect on balance (IE zergs wont start uber-losing) , I just don't like when stuff gets nerfed. Wait....... Feedback is smartcast!?!!?! You can click on the minimap to cast it against the closest unit with energy, what does that have to do with anything? A good player will still manually target infestors to get ones with full energy and it makes little difference anyway whether you click the minimap or click the infestor. Helps with trying to select ghosts in an army when they're bunched up with a bunch of other infantry and almost impossible to click. I'm pretty sure that isn't true, you can't just click wherever on the minimap, you actually have to click on the specific little point on the minimap that is a unit with energy for it to do anything just like using Injection on Hatcheries. The reason Protoss don't do minimap feedback is because it takes too long to specifically click on the tiny little dots and you can't even tell which ones are the casters. Ya I was going to say... if you dont click on a specific unit with energy you get the *ERRR* sound. I was thinking by smart cast it meant auto cast LOL. Im pretty sure day9 said in a daily or cast once that if you select all your HT and spam click feedback on the minimap in the vicinity of the enemy army it will automaticly feedback basicly every caster in the enemy army, I have not confirmed this though. he said it when a protoss mass-feedbacked a bunch of infestors and based on his voice he insinuated it wasn't hard to do.
It is actually one of the hardest and most annoying things to do in reality. Try it in a game once and see for yourself.
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What if they made it so you cant neural air units but kept the 9 range for ground units?
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On September 16 2011 06:14 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:08 grudgeStar wrote:
Yeah, well, ZvT would be completely broken without NP. What would you do against mass Thor? The only thing you could do is make an army purely made for basetrades, like muta/ling/roach or something. Contaminate his Factories to slow down his Thor production while attacking with a maxed army before he gets a scary number of Thors?
so you're saying Zerg race has to "beat the clock" to win, or lose entirely? Cause thats balanced, right?
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On September 16 2011 06:19 Ammanas wrote:
I am just friggin gold player (more enjoying watching SC2 then playing) but I have to ask one thing: Why the hell do all of you think, you are better in keeping balance then Blizzard is?
I mean, SC1 is perfectly balanced game (yeah, it took a long time), WoW is the best balanced MMORPG by far (well, in PvP Warrhammer is better, but in PvE it has the best balance between classes and WoW never was really a PvP game). Also they have A TON of statistical data (more then anyone, of course) and they have data that no one else has.
The thing is, they are not basing their ballance at some subjective feelings or whatever, they are basing it on statistics. And statistics almost never lie. And I don't mean just basic winning percentage, if it works anything like in WoW, they literally have statistics of everything everyone has done in every game. And they have employees, whose full time job is to analyze those statistics/data.
So let me ask one more time. Why do YOU think, you know better then Blizzard?
We aren't saying we can do it better.
We're saying what they've done is shit.
You go to a restaurant and order a burger, you spit it out on the floor and stomp on it. Not because you could make a better burger it's because the one you got just is shit to what you thought you'd get.
And stats do lie, if they want a good set of statistics they should exclude all games except grandmaster league/tournament results. No one but Blizzard cares if protoss has a 90% win rate in gold league and maybe some fucking scrubs in gold league.
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I guess this is fair.....compared to the change that was going to happen. But this is still stupid. No change is needed. Range from 9 to 7 does mean you need "better positioning". It just means that infestors using NP just die.
This wouldn't be the worst change ever, but it's change for the sake of change. The infestor needs no more changes as of right now.
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On September 16 2011 06:33 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:14 branflakes14 wrote:On September 16 2011 06:08 grudgeStar wrote:
Yeah, well, ZvT would be completely broken without NP. What would you do against mass Thor? The only thing you could do is make an army purely made for basetrades, like muta/ling/roach or something. Contaminate his Factories to slow down his Thor production while attacking with a maxed army before he gets a scary number of Thors? so you're saying Zerg race has to "beat the clock" to win, or lose entirely? Cause thats balanced, right?
I was thinking of it more as a reaction to what he'd be doing which is pretty par for the course.
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If they're going to drastically reduce NP range like this, I think it might be time to remove priority targeting of infestors by things like Siege tanks and the like. If we have to get in closer and struggle to keep infestors alive just to get a np off, it should at least require some action/though by the opponent to snipe off the infestors, not just have them automurdered by a tank line.
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On September 16 2011 06:32 JKira wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:06 Roblin wrote:On September 16 2011 05:52 happyness wrote:On September 16 2011 05:39 BeeNu wrote:On September 16 2011 05:36 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 05:32 happyness wrote:On September 16 2011 05:22 DuneBug wrote:
Bad change.
I'd ask all the protoss players... would you rather be able to make templar or infestors? I'd like to see their answers. If feedback was not smartcast I'd have more sympathy for the protoss.
I doubt this will have too great of an effect on balance (IE zergs wont start uber-losing) , I just don't like when stuff gets nerfed. Wait....... Feedback is smartcast!?!!?! You can click on the minimap to cast it against the closest unit with energy, what does that have to do with anything? A good player will still manually target infestors to get ones with full energy and it makes little difference anyway whether you click the minimap or click the infestor. Helps with trying to select ghosts in an army when they're bunched up with a bunch of other infantry and almost impossible to click. I'm pretty sure that isn't true, you can't just click wherever on the minimap, you actually have to click on the specific little point on the minimap that is a unit with energy for it to do anything just like using Injection on Hatcheries. The reason Protoss don't do minimap feedback is because it takes too long to specifically click on the tiny little dots and you can't even tell which ones are the casters. Ya I was going to say... if you dont click on a specific unit with energy you get the *ERRR* sound. I was thinking by smart cast it meant auto cast LOL. Im pretty sure day9 said in a daily or cast once that if you select all your HT and spam click feedback on the minimap in the vicinity of the enemy army it will automaticly feedback basicly every caster in the enemy army, I have not confirmed this though. he said it when a protoss mass-feedbacked a bunch of infestors and based on his voice he insinuated it wasn't hard to do. It is actually one of the hardest and most annoying things to do in reality. Try it in a game once and see for yourself.
In theory that should work.. Yeah I tried templar openings in PvZ for a bit.. needless to say I'm back to robo openings...
HT are good to mix in later for on the side but you can't depend on feedback against infestors. They WILL get the fungals off, no matter what. It's a matter of positioning. You can't have your templars out front to get off feedbacks or they get fungaled by range 9+aoe fungal and if they are in the back or to the side, they get the fungal off on your other units before they're in range of feedback. You pretty much can only get feedbacks on the infestors that have already casted unless you're in huge numbers and he can't expand all of the fungals effectively before you manage to get off FB's on the side
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On September 16 2011 06:33 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:14 branflakes14 wrote:On September 16 2011 06:08 grudgeStar wrote:
Yeah, well, ZvT would be completely broken without NP. What would you do against mass Thor? The only thing you could do is make an army purely made for basetrades, like muta/ling/roach or something. Contaminate his Factories to slow down his Thor production while attacking with a maxed army before he gets a scary number of Thors? so you're saying Zerg race has to "beat the clock" to win, or lose entirely? Cause thats balanced, right?
That's how BW worked. 200/200 mech = time to lose.
Some units are strong, but hard to mass up. If one attempts to mass this unit - be it tanks, or void rays, or whatever - then yes, you are on a clock to kill/starve them.
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On September 16 2011 06:24 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:21 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 06:16 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 06:13 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 06:01 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 05:56 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 05:50 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:47 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 05:44 Cloud9157 wrote:On September 16 2011 05:43 R3N wrote:
[quote]
Protoss are seriously hilarious.
Can I get a unit that can storm-rape your entire army, 1-shott all your casters, and then morph into a-moving rapeArchons blocking you from winning the game? But wait... My AoE spell actually requires research+resources... And my Archon requires 12 seconds to form, and 100/300 in resources... My NP requires research+ resources...And when I'm out of energy I can't form another unit and thus put my thumbs in my mouth and try to look useful. But you can take bases more freely than me and as a result, get so many resources... Plus you don't spend gas on anything other than research/buildings (assuming ling/Infestor). Are we done yet? Wtf? I don't understand, are you insinuating infestors are cheaper than HT?! I do agree infestors is a SLIGHTLY better unit but their still in the same caliber (both way below ghosts LOL) and take roughly the same amount of risk/reward (infestors more risk - believe it or not - but also more reward). I guess HT require more tech (focused). But still take more bases? I'm zerg, that's what I'm supposed to do as a result of my armies (maxed) fail to even take the shields off your deathball. You can't take resources in the equation without considering all factors. Uh, that's not what he said? He said that you have more resources which makes it easier to get more infestors. They're not cheaper but if you're on three bases worth of gas to my two bases worth of gas you can get more gas units than I can. And man, it is becoming annoying hearing all the whining about deathballs still. There have been so many high level games of zergs destroying "deathballs" easily, of zerg beating protoss while on equal bases, etc. Watch replays, compare positioning, tech, upgrades, and army value, and you'll understand why you lost the game opposed to "DEATHBALL IS STRONG". ...... As I said, I'm zerg and not protoss. My units aren't ½ as efficient as yours. That's why I get access to more bases faster than you can. Zerg can't win any half-decent ZvP on equal bases. One might think people figure that out by now.... Here, I'll make ridiculous unfounded statements too: Protoss units are not cost-effective versus zerg. If you prove your statement I'll prove mine. You're also going on a completely different tangent of the original statement that you'll have more infestors than templar. Proven my statement? So you really do believe protoss units are to be as easily massed as zerg? I think you need to enlighten the entire starcraft community and ofc, blizzard about this gospel of truth. As the other way 'round is widely accepted by everyone but you. Also we were talking about gas efficient and you came in straying shit about archons and how roaches beat them. What is the first part even talking about? What? I never said anything remotely like that. And watch any GSL ZvP. Z destroys P utterly in the matchup. This month was like 25% winrate and it would've been lower if protoss didn't one base all-in a couple games. Zerg completely shits on protoss and you are sitting here acting as if stalker/archon kills THREE zerg armies, which has never actually happened. You're just making random inaccurate statements, probably from your experiences in silver league or something, hence my sarcasm. Um, my talking about roaches v archons was in response to saying that roaches are a soft counter and me saying they aren't. That was me responding to a statement, not me going on a tangent.
Lol, there are 2 more zergs in code S than 'toss and that "25% winrate" that you pulled from your ass was not far there off (the other way 'round) couple of months ago when zerg had no answer to 'toss a-moving balls.
I just got promoted to masters in season 3 where I fail to see any balance issues ZvP but I do understand bronzies and 'toss trolls thinking so as they can't a-move anymore (HT requires 'T' left click  )
And oh roaches aren't a soft-counter to archons? So you think they're a hard-counter? LoL. As I already stated in previous posts, they do ok in midgame not because they're any particularly good
against archons but because archons aren't as good at that point, you need allot of them en masse for their AoE to show real effect. That and with roaches scaling terribly , they ain't going to hold anymore. But I dunno why I'm saying this to you as you believe zerg units are as strong as toss individually...
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They should have changed it so Capital Ships canot be targeted, and that's it.
Maybe make it cost a bit more mana, like +25, but meh, still better then not targeting massive
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Well, blizzard *almost* made a good change to the game....almost got there...
This range change will barely make any difference. I still dont agree with an unupgraded army of zerg units can kill a +3/+1 army of protoss units because you grabbed all my colossus while your mass roaches gum up the ground space. The infestor will still be OP, and it will continue to get the *smallest* of nerfs every patch until it is finally a fair unit.
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On September 16 2011 06:33 Mr Showtime wrote:
I guess this is fair.....compared to the change that was going to happen. But this is still stupid. No change is needed. Range from 9 to 7 does mean you need "better positioning". It just means that infestors using NP just die.
This wouldn't be the worst change ever, but it's change for the sake of change. The infestor needs no more changes as of right now.
Says who? You? Didn't know you were qualified to make that kind of call.
Yea... no. I think I'll leave those kind of decisions to the Blizzard balancing team who get advice from top pros. Are you a top pro?
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I can live with this, I don't like it but I can live with it. Will make using the spell require a bit more skill now, which is a good thing.
On September 16 2011 06:37 Gatored wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:33 Mr Showtime wrote:
I guess this is fair.....compared to the change that was going to happen. But this is still stupid. No change is needed. Range from 9 to 7 does mean you need "better positioning". It just means that infestors using NP just die.
This wouldn't be the worst change ever, but it's change for the sake of change. The infestor needs no more changes as of right now. Says who? You? Didn't know you were qualified to make that kind of call. Yea... no. I think I'll leave those kind of decisions to the Blizzard balancing team who get advice from top pros. Are you a top pro?
That was just his opinion, don't understand why you had to jump down his throat for stating his opinion....
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On September 16 2011 06:37 Gatored wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:33 Mr Showtime wrote:
I guess this is fair.....compared to the change that was going to happen. But this is still stupid. No change is needed. Range from 9 to 7 does mean you need "better positioning". It just means that infestors using NP just die.
This wouldn't be the worst change ever, but it's change for the sake of change. The infestor needs no more changes as of right now. Says who? You? Didn't know you were qualified to make that kind of call. Yea... no. I think I'll leave those kind of decisions to the Blizzard balancing team who get advice from top pros. Are you a top pro?
The worrying part of them taking advice from top players is that top players have something to gain if they can convince Blizzard that something in their race is weak.
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This change should also include a decrease of the Infestor's targeting rank. If you are going to force the infestor to be that close, then the opponent should have to target the infestor.
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On September 16 2011 06:33 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:14 branflakes14 wrote:On September 16 2011 06:08 grudgeStar wrote:
Yeah, well, ZvT would be completely broken without NP. What would you do against mass Thor? The only thing you could do is make an army purely made for basetrades, like muta/ling/roach or something. Contaminate his Factories to slow down his Thor production while attacking with a maxed army before he gets a scary number of Thors? so you're saying Zerg race has to "beat the clock" to win, or lose entirely? Cause thats balanced, right?
That's the way it's always been.
You want a game where every race can win with any unit composition at any time?
Then go play chess.
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range 9 np was ridiculous anyway, good change.
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On September 16 2011 06:39 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 06:37 Gatored wrote:On September 16 2011 06:33 Mr Showtime wrote:
I guess this is fair.....compared to the change that was going to happen. But this is still stupid. No change is needed. Range from 9 to 7 does mean you need "better positioning". It just means that infestors using NP just die.
This wouldn't be the worst change ever, but it's change for the sake of change. The infestor needs no more changes as of right now. Says who? You? Didn't know you were qualified to make that kind of call. Yea... no. I think I'll leave those kind of decisions to the Blizzard balancing team who get advice from top pros. Are you a top pro? The worrying part of them taking advice from top players is that top players have something to gain if they can convince Blizzard that something in their race is weak.
That's why they should include people from every region and every race.
It would be infinitely better than Blizzard listening to sob stories from Silver league.
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EPT
