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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
if T isnt strong enough ( or maps a too big) then the zerg can just hold out untill you reach the 20+ muta balls capable of doing silly ammounts of damage everytime the terran moves out tho id agrue that 2k/2k worth of muta should be able to do some harrasment damage.. Yes, but one might argue Zerg shouldn't have any incentive to make more than 20 mutas in the first place, if the unit was balanced correctly. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 22 2014 16:11 Enigmasc wrote: while i think that ZvT is slightly shifted in our favour atm i really think the majority of people in this thread are severley over-selling it, its not Bl-infestor level where ZvT wasa free win and unlike bl infestor muta/ling/bane isnt trivially easy to control the probelm with ZvT is that its a really momentum based matchup hence why it prettymuch rests on a knife edge in terms of balance if T is too strong zerg cant hold a 4th and so slowly dies because he doesnt have the gas to afford muta/banes / get to hive for 3/3 if T isnt strong enough ( or maps a too big) then the zerg can just hold out untill you reach the 20+ muta balls capable of doing silly ammounts of damage everytime the terran moves out tho id agrue that 2k/2k worth of muta should be able to do some harrasment damage.. Well, it actually is somewhere around BL-Infestor levels right now, because BL-Infestor wasn't even as bad as some people like you make it out to be. You only have to revisit the winrates, Code S stats etc, etc to see that. It actually only got really bad towards the end of 2012 and beginning of 2013. And throughout all of it we had a bunch of strong Terrans that could challenge the very best Zergs of that time. Which is pretty much the situations we are also in right now, just that I believe that right now Terran also is at a slight disadvantage against Protoss while in WoL I believe T had a slight advantage in that matchup. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On May 22 2014 16:11 Enigmasc wrote: while i think that ZvT is slightly shifted in our favour atm i really think the majority of people in this thread are severley over-selling it, its not Bl-infestor level where ZvT wasa free win and unlike bl infestor muta/ling/bane isnt trivially easy to control the probelm with ZvT is that its a really momentum based matchup hence why it prettymuch rests on a knife edge in terms of balance if T is too strong zerg cant hold a 4th and so slowly dies because he doesnt have the gas to afford muta/banes / get to hive for 3/3 if T isnt strong enough ( or maps a too big) then the zerg can just hold out untill you reach the 20+ muta balls capable of doing silly ammounts of damage everytime the terran moves out tho id agrue that 2k/2k worth of muta should be able to do some harrasment damage.. I actually agree with this, the biggest problem Terran is having at the moment is being able to keep the Zerg's economy in check long enough to max out without dieing to a 20+ muta counter attack -or- somehow being able to afford to keep 2-3 thors back at home and build like 6-7+ turrets at each base to fend off muta counter attacks. In terms of maxed out army vs army, I dont think Ultra / Ling / Bling / Muta can beat a properly micro'd Maurader / Marine / Hellbat / Thor / Medivac composition. This Maru vs Soulkey games shows that despite Maru taking some serious economic damage throughout the game, he's still able to make that last push seem pretty powerful. | ||
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Enigmasc
United Kingdom147 Posts
On May 22 2014 16:23 Pursuit_ wrote: I actually agree with this, the biggest problem Terran is having at the moment is being able to keep the Zerg's economy in check long enough to max out without dieing to a 20+ muta counter attack -or- somehow being able to afford to keep 2-3 thors back at home and build like 6-7+ turrets at each base to fend off muta counter attacks. In terms of maxed out army vs army, I dont think Ultra / Ling / Bling / Muta can beat a properly micro'd Maurader / Marine / Hellbat / Thor / Medivac composition. This Maru vs Soulkey games shows that despite Maru taking some serious economic damage throughout the game, he's still able to make that last push seem pretty powerful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKKbtMBETRc i dont know tbh, i think ultra/ling with infestor support is actually a really strong lategame army ( albiet expansive and gas heavy), and it gives like a huge window where you can straight up kill the terran before they pick up the marauder production etc the only thing with that army comp is there is little incentive to every come off muta/ling/bane even once on 3/3 since the muta flock snowballs so hard as drop defence/harrasment, and it keeps your army nice and mobile. that and the fact that with the muta ball u can just pick at him allday long whilst if he really wants to drag it out behind buildings etc you cant really end with ultras | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On May 22 2014 16:35 Enigmasc wrote: i dont know tbh, i think ultra/ling with infestor support is actually a really strong lategame army ( albiet expansive and gas heavy), and it gives like a huge window where you can straight up kill the terran before they pick up the marauder production etc the only thing with that army comp is there is little incentive to every come off muta/ling/bane even once on 3/3 since the muta flock snowballs so hard as drop defence/harrasment, and it keeps your army nice and mobile. that and the fact that with the muta ball u can just pick at him allday long whilst if he really wants to drag it out behind buildings etc you cant really end with ultras Just thinking about it, Mutalisk seem to be creating problems in three different matchups atm. ZvT - Mutalisk just kinda dominate the skies, and with Regen, the only way Terran can take out a flock of mutas is by Zerg screwing up. ZvP - Mutalisk are such a powerful transition after a maxed army, Protoss blindly has to prepare with at least 3 Stargates, Fleet Beacon, and preemptive Phoenix Production. If Zerg goes for something else, Protoss sunk a ton of money into nothing (GSL Spoiler: + Show Spoiler + See Shine v sOs 2nd match ZvZ - Mutas are the thing that caused the Spore buff that is now causing problems with Broodlords vs Swarm Hosts in the first place. So, to all those people saying Mutalisk are fine, do you really think a small nerf to Mutalisk would make your game impossible (I'm thinking reduced regen/speed)? On another note, Biomech v Z is so sick to watch :-) EDIT: Gonna rephrase this a bit; My 'complaint' is; Mutalisk are becoming too much of a catch-all unit. This was the biggest problem in WoL, in which the Infestor was your AoE/anti-air/anti-small units/drop defense/harassment/army backbone/excellent in basetrades. Mutalisk are so good at taking map control, forcing basetrades, engaging head on, etcetera. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
I think Terran playstyles might become more passive than they have been recently as well though, similar to how the pre-hive timing worked in WoL where you take 3 base and max out on MMM+ Hellbat Thor and hit a 2/2 1/0 timing. Most successful non-Mech TvZ players tend to be moving more towards this kind of build. (edit: it wont be nearly as passive as WoL pre-hive timings were though, I don't think the 11 minute 2 medivac 1/1 stim+cs push will go away) The only problem I really see with Mutalisks is how easy it easy to control large groups of them (if Mutalisks were limited to 11 in a control group ala BW they wouldn't be a problem at all), but I can't really think of a neat way to fix this. A slight nerf to regen would probably be effective but feels like a bandaid solution. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On May 22 2014 17:08 Pursuit_ wrote: I could definitely be wrong about my thoughts, but I feel like Terran will start to pick up again in TvZ soon. I actually feel like if the servos upgrade change goes through it will swing TvZ too far in Terran's favor (Bbyong vs Soulkey from proleague is a good reminder of how strong Hellbats can be vs ling heavy compositions). I think Terran playstyles might become more passive than they have been recently as well though, similar to how the pre-hive timing worked in WoL where you take 3 base and max out on MMM+ Hellbat Thor and hit a 2/2 1/0 timing. Most successful non-Mech TvZ players tend to be moving more towards this kind of build. (edit: it wont be nearly as passive as WoL pre-hive timings were though, I don't think the 11 minute 2 medivac 1/1 stim+cs push will go away) The only problem I really see with Mutalisks is how easy it easy to control large groups of them (if Mutalisks were limited to 11 in a control group ala BW they wouldn't be a problem at all), but I can't really think of a neat way to fix this. A slight nerf to regen would probably be effective but feels like a bandaid solution. How to deal with large groups of them? Make it really fucking scary to fight in such a group, if Thors 2-shot your mutalisk, man, I'm not going around all ezpz, I'll keep a very keen eye on them! Sadly, the mobility deficit is so huge... | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On May 22 2014 17:12 SC2Toastie wrote: How to deal with large groups of them? Make it really fucking scary to fight in such a group, if Thors 2-shot your mutalisk, man, I'm not going around all ezpz, I'll keep a very keen eye on them! Sadly, the mobility deficit is so huge... Well, you want them to still be effective in that smaller group of them, it's just the 25-30+ muta balls that get out of hand in ZvT or the 5k/5k banks that turn into a 50 muta remax in ZvP. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On May 22 2014 17:15 Pursuit_ wrote: Well, you want them to still be effective in that smaller group of them, it's just the 25-30+ muta balls that get out of hand in ZvT or the 5k/5k banks that turn into a 50 muta remax in ZvP. The way to fix that is by making them a harrasment unit with minor utility in bigger fights. As it stands how, a large clump of mutalisk with just a couple of banelings to force a split trades efficiently with Marines... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 22 2014 17:16 SC2Toastie wrote: The way to fix that is by making them a harrasment unit with minor utility in bigger fights. As it stands how, a large clump of mutalisk with just a couple of banelings to force a split trades efficiently with Marines... Yeah, but then Zerg needs a massive buff to Broodlords. That is not optional, given how Protoss ground armies of all higher tech forms completely demolish everything Zerg ground if the Protoss does not have to fear an engagement with mutalisks. Not to mention all the BO-possibilities for Protoss when there is no massive threat of mutalisk play. | ||
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Creager
Germany1893 Posts
On May 22 2014 17:23 Big J wrote: Yeah, but then Zerg needs a massive buff to Broodlords. That is not optional, given how Protoss ground armies of all higher tech forms completely demolish everything Zerg ground if the Protoss does not have to fear an engagement with mutalisks. Not to mention all the BO-possibilities for Protoss when there is no massive threat of mutalisk play. Blizzard has been implementing race-specific balance updates for quite some time now so I don't see a problem here. Like Muta splash dmg doing +X damage to shields or sth (I know it's not the best idea, just giving a simple example). edit: I don't want to advertise those kind of changes to the game as I find them to be unelegant work-arounds of more fundamental problems, but that seems to be Blizzard's way to go, so I wouldn't be surprised if sth along above lines would occur to adress current problems. | ||
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Enigmasc
United Kingdom147 Posts
On May 22 2014 16:53 SC2Toastie wrote: Just thinking about it, Mutalisk seem to be creating problems in three different matchups atm. ZvT - Mutalisk just kinda dominate the skies, and with Regen, the only way Terran can take out a flock of mutas is by Zerg screwing up. ZvP - Mutalisk are such a powerful transition after a maxed army, Protoss blindly has to prepare with at least 3 Stargates, Fleet Beacon, and preemptive Phoenix Production. If Zerg goes for something else, Protoss sunk a ton of money into nothing (GSL Spoiler: + Show Spoiler + See Shine v sOs 2nd match ZvZ - Mutas are the thing that caused the Spore buff that is now causing problems with Broodlords vs Swarm Hosts in the first place. So, to all those people saying Mutalisk are fine, do you really think a small nerf to Mutalisk would make your game impossible (I'm thinking reduced regen/speed) On another note, Biomech v Z is so sick to watch :-) EDIT: Gonna rephrase this a bit; My 'complaint' is; Mutalisk are becoming too much of a catch-all unit. This was the biggest problem in WoL, in which the Infestor was your AoE/anti-air/anti-small units/drop defense/harassment/army backbone/excellent in basetrades. Mutalisk are so good at taking map control, forcing basetrades, engaging head on, etcetera. i think your right when you put it that way tbh i do think mutas do need some adjustment , tho id prefer a slight regen nerf rather than a mobility one honestly while its exciting to watch i think bio-mech wont last long no offence guys but it just seems bad :L as long as the zerg reacts properly and doesnt try to blindly go muta/ling/bane into it that and i dont think mutas are too overpowering vs protoss either, sure they can be great in a base race and keeping the toss back but by then its usually what 6k+ resources + of harasment unit that cant take a straight up fight asummine you have 1 or 2 archons tho honestly id prefer a change to zvz that resulted in something other than roach wars :L, granted there fixing the SH problem but the matchup is still pretty stale | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3370 Posts
Purely from a, what is cool standpoint, however JaeDong Muta switches vs Protoss is also pretty neat. I guess to go about this, is that the surprise element of the Muta has to be really strong, but with stronger counters as the game goes on. | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
On May 22 2014 16:53 SC2Toastie wrote: Just thinking about it, Mutalisk seem to be creating problems in three different matchups atm. ZvT - Mutalisk just kinda dominate the skies, and with Regen, the only way Terran can take out a flock of mutas is by Zerg screwing up. ZvP - Mutalisk are such a powerful transition after a maxed army, Protoss blindly has to prepare with at least 3 Stargates, Fleet Beacon, and preemptive Phoenix Production. If Zerg goes for something else, Protoss sunk a ton of money into nothing (GSL Spoiler: + Show Spoiler + See Shine v sOs 2nd match ZvZ - Mutas are the thing that caused the Spore buff that is now causing problems with Broodlords vs Swarm Hosts in the first place. So, to all those people saying Mutalisk are fine, do you really think a small nerf to Mutalisk would make your game impossible (I'm thinking reduced regen/speed)? On another note, Biomech v Z is so sick to watch :-) EDIT: Gonna rephrase this a bit; My 'complaint' is; Mutalisk are becoming too much of a catch-all unit. This was the biggest problem in WoL, in which the Infestor was your AoE/anti-air/anti-small units/drop defense/harassment/army backbone/excellent in basetrades. Mutalisk are so good at taking map control, forcing basetrades, engaging head on, etcetera. There is no problem with mutas and they aren't all catch unit. ZvZ - problem already solved by blizz and you don't see any mutas currently anyway. ZvP - they are only thing protoss have to look for, and then they are easily counterable. ZvP would lost a its only dynamic without them. ZvT - they are core unit as marines are. In my opinion terran should get some general buff which would help in both TvZ and TvP. If you look at games when terrans get small early advantage, they are fine. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On May 22 2014 17:52 Tuczniak wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 22 2014 16:53 SC2Toastie wrote: Just thinking about it, Mutalisk seem to be creating problems in three different matchups atm. ZvT - Mutalisk just kinda dominate the skies, and with Regen, the only way Terran can take out a flock of mutas is by Zerg screwing up. ZvP - Mutalisk are such a powerful transition after a maxed army, Protoss blindly has to prepare with at least 3 Stargates, Fleet Beacon, and preemptive Phoenix Production. If Zerg goes for something else, Protoss sunk a ton of money into nothing (GSL Spoiler: + Show Spoiler + See Shine v sOs 2nd match ZvZ - Mutas are the thing that caused the Spore buff that is now causing problems with Broodlords vs Swarm Hosts in the first place. So, to all those people saying Mutalisk are fine, do you really think a small nerf to Mutalisk would make your game impossible (I'm thinking reduced regen/speed)? On another note, Biomech v Z is so sick to watch :-) EDIT: Gonna rephrase this a bit; My 'complaint' is; Mutalisk are becoming too much of a catch-all unit. This was the biggest problem in WoL, in which the Infestor was your AoE/anti-air/anti-small units/drop defense/harassment/army backbone/excellent in basetrades. Mutalisk are so good at taking map control, forcing basetrades, engaging head on, etcetera. There is no problem with mutas and they aren't all catch unit. ZvZ - problem already solved by blizz and you don't see any mutas currently anyway. ZvP - they are only thing protoss have to look for, and then they are easily counterable. ZvP would lost a its only dynamic without them. ZvT - they are core unit as marines are. In my opinion terran should get some general buff which would help in both TvZ and TvP. If you look at games when terrans get small early advantage, they are fine. Read the post you quote, please. For ZvZ they are no longer a problem BECAUSE of the Spore buff WHICH is giving a current problem (with help of SH), thus they were a problem, were fixed, and now the fix is the problem. ZvP is a whole other matter where the Protoss deathball is unkillable for Zerg in a normal manner. That doesn't draw away from the fact that the threat of mutalisk forces Protoss to sink over 1.5K/1K into pre-emptive defense they might never even need in the first place. That's stupid. ZvT a 100/100 unit that is faster than anything Terran shouldn't be a core unit. It's not supposed to be capable of doing everything. Once again, I already got onto that in my post. So your entire comment is giving a reply you clearly put no thought in to a post I made which already addresses every point you made. Lastly, if a race needs to first get a small advantage (Ie. opponent fucking up) to be 'fine', something is wrong. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On May 22 2014 17:51 ejozl wrote: I wouldn't mind a small buff to 8 or less mutas, as long as when it gets over 8 mutas they're reduced in power. Purely from a, what is cool standpoint, however JaeDong Muta switches vs Protoss is also pretty neat. I guess to go about this, is that the surprise element of the Muta has to be really strong, but with stronger counters as the game goes on. IIRC you need 10 to oneshot a mine on even upgrades. Also, it is not possible to patch like that  | ||
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jodwin
Finland18 Posts
It would be an interesting experiment to see how engagements in TvZ would work out if mutas were nerfed to have the same speed as in WoL: Would Zergs be about as strong as they were back then, or would Zerg still fare better due to more efficient unit control from the Zerg's part. Simply based on watching recent pro games I'd estimate Zerg still coming slightly ahead in that situation, though that could also be clouded by Terran bias. But on the off-chance that modern Zergs are too good with their ling/bling control against Terran AoE, what should be done to improve the situation..? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25103 Posts
Part of Mutas great strength is their mobility and backstabbing ability, it's hard to look at their potency at any one aspect of the game in isolation as there will be a ripple effect if you change anything. Lower regen will enable Terrans to potentially cut more defensive corners, freeing up more units for engagements. It's the difficulty in tweaking such a snowbally unit, too weak and you remove its ability to get into a position where a muta flock gains potency and a foothold in the game, too strong and the flock becomes unstoppable when attained. I don't think even with Zerg's improved understanding of ZvT that the latter is necessarily the case currently, but it's definitely worth keeping an eye on. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
Currently, you can fly through marines, take 2 Thor shots, engage 7 turrets, because low health mutalisk regen within half a minute. In WoL, if you took a ton of damage, your mutalisk would not harass for a long time, nor would they be helpful in the engagement. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25103 Posts
I'm for halving the regeneration perhaps, with a lategame upgrade to take it back up to its current rate, but am still waiting a bit before I start spamming :p | ||
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