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On May 19 2014 19:14 Big J wrote:
Mutas were hardly ever played towards the end of WoL and only successful against very straight Robo macro builds (so the type of no SG, no/late blink, fast colossus).
Blink and Storm was completely sufficient against them and 4speed or 3.75speed will hardly make a difference in terms of how fast you can switch locations.
You absolutly cannot contain a Protoss to two bases with mutas, because a good Protoss has his third up long before even 2base mutas can hit it and a SG opening that already has 5phoenixes on the field would still demolish all those 2base muta plays anyways.
Not to mention that there is Nexus canon now as well and Protoss isn't lost in basetrades anymore with recall.
Why do 2 base muta? 3 hatch before pool into 3 base muta. 3 hatch before pool is pretty standard right now against Protoss, and against a gate expand I don't see how you can ever lose. You'll have your muta spam going before their third base even finishes, can overpower any Phoenix opening, and that just leaves blink stalkers. I'll admit that on some of the maps with shorter distances one might be able to defend with blink stalkers, but on the majority they can just fly to a base where your stalkers aren't, then when you blink over fly to the third base and destroy probes with impunity.
Nexus cannon can't deter giant mutalisk flocks any better than a half dozen photon cannons didn't in WoL.
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On May 19 2014 19:33 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 19:14 Big J wrote:
Mutas were hardly ever played towards the end of WoL and only successful against very straight Robo macro builds (so the type of no SG, no/late blink, fast colossus).
Blink and Storm was completely sufficient against them and 4speed or 3.75speed will hardly make a difference in terms of how fast you can switch locations.
You absolutly cannot contain a Protoss to two bases with mutas, because a good Protoss has his third up long before even 2base mutas can hit it and a SG opening that already has 5phoenixes on the field would still demolish all those 2base muta plays anyways.
Not to mention that there is Nexus canon now as well and Protoss isn't lost in basetrades anymore with recall. Why do 2 base muta? 3 hatch before pool into 3 base muta. 3 hatch before pool is pretty standard right now against Protoss, and against a gate expand I don't see how you can ever lose. You'll have your muta spam going before their third base even finishes, can overpower any Phoenix opening, and that just leaves blink stalkers. I'll admit that on some of the maps with shorter distances one might be able to defend with blink stalkers, but on the majority they can just fly to a base where your stalkers aren't, then when you blink over fly to the third base and destroy probes with impunity. Nexus cannon can't deter giant mutalisk flocks any better than a half dozen photon cannons didn't in WoL.
Did I say 2base muta is the way to go? Lol no. I only used it to give a timing mark, since that is the fastest mutas you can face.
Popular 3rd timings for Protoss after Stargate have a Nexus finishing between 9:30-12mins, and between 11-12min is about the fastest timing a 3base spire finishes when nothing important has happened before. And that's still not a really good strategy against a Stargate opening, that's again just to tell you the real timings instead of the made up ones from your post. (sources are games like Zest vs soO, Classic vs Life, Stats vs effort)
And 3hatch before pool isn't standard currently. It's something that some players sometimes mix in. The great majority of games is however played with hatch-->pool or pool-->hatch. Even 10pools might be more popular than 3hatch before pool right now.
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On May 19 2014 20:52 Big J wrote:
And 3hatch before pool isn't standard currently. It's something that some players sometimes mix in. The great majority of games is however played with hatch-->pool or pool-->hatch. Even 10pools might be more popular than 3hatch before pool right now.
yeah, people need to understand the difference between standard korean meta and standard foreign ladder meta. a lot of people talk like the korean meta is "superior" and "correct" just because they're the top players, but part of being at that level is respecting your opponent and having a pretty high confidence that certain strange cheeses aren't coming, knowing your opponent's typical scout timing/favored builds, and also having a lot of practice defending super greedy builds
3hatch before pool on a 2player map on ladder is extremely risky unless you do drone scout -> see gateway expand -> bring the drone back to make the third hatch. i think it's funny that a protoss would complain about 3hatch being an easy greed build when protoss are going nexus gateway now 
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On May 19 2014 21:54 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 20:52 Big J wrote:
And 3hatch before pool isn't standard currently. It's something that some players sometimes mix in. The great majority of games is however played with hatch-->pool or pool-->hatch. Even 10pools might be more popular than 3hatch before pool right now. yeah, people need to understand the difference between standard korean meta and standard foreign ladder meta. a lot of people talk like the korean meta is "superior" and "correct" just because they're the top players, but part of being at that level is respecting your opponent and having a pretty high confidence that certain strange cheeses aren't coming, knowing your opponent's typical scout timing/favored builds, and also having a lot of practice defending super greedy builds 3hatch before pool on a 2player map on ladder is extremely risky unless you do drone scout -> see gateway expand -> bring the drone back to make the third hatch. i think it's funny that a protoss would complain about 3hatch being an easy greed build when protoss are going nexus gateway now
I don't even know what ladder he would be talking about. I'm getting canonrushed at 2nd and 3rd even when I go pool first.
Some people canonrush the natural when there is not even a hatchery there.
It's already near impossible to hold a canonrush that uses terrain well when going hatch first.
...
not to mention proxy 2gate
...
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
Mutas were partly so strong in WoL in the period where sentry/immortal expands were popular due to the prevalence of Roach maxes and the like. While Mutas are better now, Protoss has an easier time establishing quick thirds due in part to the MSC's defensive utility straight-up, but also the options and timing changes enabled by gate expands being a lot more robust. The hallucination by default enables you to scout more efficiently than before as well which is a big help.
Mutas are to me incredibly annoying to play against in the matchup, and force a lot of wonky games but I don't see them as 'broken' or anything like that.
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I am so depressed about Terran in HotS. 
During beta and start of release they were pretty strong, so strong that Blizzard decided to nerf everything. No war hounds, weaken mines, transformation downgrade. Basically everything new was removed.
But Zerg and Protoss were left untouched, meaning Terran is basically WoL vs HotS upgraded Zerg and Protoss. Terran doesn't have answers to the new meta other than to "micro better".
Blizzard please, this is depressing ;_;
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How long will it take before tvp tvz gets fixed? must all terran quit first? must there be 0 terrans in GSL? what are they waiting for. its clearly inmbalanced towards terran in any aspect.. tours/ladders etc
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They will probably try fixing terran in Legacy of the void. Because I don't believe blizzard will do any drastic changes before next expansion.
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On May 21 2014 16:41 Nizes wrote:
They will probably try fixing terran in Legacy of the void. Because I don't believe blizzard will do any drastic changes before next expansion.
Terran doesn't need fixing in LotV. Zerg and Protoss need to be made harder to play.
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On May 19 2014 19:33 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 19:14 Big J wrote:
Mutas were hardly ever played towards the end of WoL and only successful against very straight Robo macro builds (so the type of no SG, no/late blink, fast colossus).
Blink and Storm was completely sufficient against them and 4speed or 3.75speed will hardly make a difference in terms of how fast you can switch locations.
You absolutly cannot contain a Protoss to two bases with mutas, because a good Protoss has his third up long before even 2base mutas can hit it and a SG opening that already has 5phoenixes on the field would still demolish all those 2base muta plays anyways.
Not to mention that there is Nexus canon now as well and Protoss isn't lost in basetrades anymore with recall. Why do 2 base muta? 3 hatch before pool into 3 base muta. 3 hatch before pool is pretty standard right now against Protoss, and against a gate expand I don't see how you can ever lose. You'll have your muta spam going before their third base even finishes, can overpower any Phoenix opening, and that just leaves blink stalkers. I'll admit that on some of the maps with shorter distances one might be able to defend with blink stalkers, but on the majority they can just fly to a base where your stalkers aren't, then when you blink over fly to the third base and destroy probes with impunity. Nexus cannon can't deter giant mutalisk flocks any better than a half dozen photon cannons didn't in WoL.
So, let me get this straight: in WoL you could hold third bases vs straight-to-muta play but in HotS you can't because of 0.25 speed more?
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On May 21 2014 16:41 Nizes wrote:
They will probably try fixing terran in Legacy of the void. Because I don't believe blizzard will do any drastic changes before next expansion.
It was the same in HOTS.
Terrans were doing extremly poorly late WOL and were supposed to get buffed with the expansion.
In the end, waround got removed, widow-mine got nerfed, hellbat + hellbat drop got nerfed.
And Terran began to suck even more than in late WOL.
My biggest concern is the idea made of thin air that there just happen to be "way less top terrans", not because of balance, but for random/broscience (on terran mechanics) reasons.
An idea pushed forward by people who've no clue what statistics (and even the law of large numbers) is.
So when Terran stops to win GSL, and that only 1 single one of them can compete in GSL ro16, they don't interpret that as "only the number 1 best Terran can compete with top Protoss/Zerg", but as "well they are just no pro terran at the caliber of top-top Zerg/Protoss and basically, just less top Terrans, hum for some luck/broscience reasons".
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On May 21 2014 17:41 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2014 19:33 Xequecal wrote:On May 19 2014 19:14 Big J wrote:
Mutas were hardly ever played towards the end of WoL and only successful against very straight Robo macro builds (so the type of no SG, no/late blink, fast colossus).
Blink and Storm was completely sufficient against them and 4speed or 3.75speed will hardly make a difference in terms of how fast you can switch locations.
You absolutly cannot contain a Protoss to two bases with mutas, because a good Protoss has his third up long before even 2base mutas can hit it and a SG opening that already has 5phoenixes on the field would still demolish all those 2base muta plays anyways.
Not to mention that there is Nexus canon now as well and Protoss isn't lost in basetrades anymore with recall. Why do 2 base muta? 3 hatch before pool into 3 base muta. 3 hatch before pool is pretty standard right now against Protoss, and against a gate expand I don't see how you can ever lose. You'll have your muta spam going before their third base even finishes, can overpower any Phoenix opening, and that just leaves blink stalkers. I'll admit that on some of the maps with shorter distances one might be able to defend with blink stalkers, but on the majority they can just fly to a base where your stalkers aren't, then when you blink over fly to the third base and destroy probes with impunity. Nexus cannon can't deter giant mutalisk flocks any better than a half dozen photon cannons didn't in WoL. So, let me get this straight: in WoL you could hold third bases vs straight-to-muta play but in HotS you can't because of 0.25 speed more?
It's not the speed, it's the regen. You could stabilise with +attack Blink Stalkers until you got Templar out without taking critical damage if you played well, because you can whittle down Mutas, each time they take a volley it increases the risk to the Zerg for coming back around with low health Mutas. Now they come back with full HP, and some extra numbers if the Zerg player is committing.
I hate their impact on the matchup, they should be effective units when controlled carefully against even good players. Instead they are far too good at pinning a ground army into its home territory, and next to useless vs a prepared player with Stargate(s) up.
I have no idea how to 'fix' this, or Zerg's problems with Protoss air without wholesale changes, some will doubtless disagree if it's something that needs fixing, which I understand as it's not 'broken' because Phoenixes annihilate Mutas.
Frankly in terms of balance I find super Mutas one of the most problematic units in HoTS, Swarmhosts are boring so they get all the flak, but snowballing flocks of regenning, super fast Mutas or the lack thereof is what so often dictates TvZ games ATM as well. Spores had to be changed because of Mutas in ZvZ
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On May 21 2014 17:18 imrusty269 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 16:41 Nizes wrote:
They will probably try fixing terran in Legacy of the void. Because I don't believe blizzard will do any drastic changes before next expansion. Terran doesn't need fixing in LotV. Zerg and Protoss need to be made harder to play.
So much this! I don't want upgrades to be removed, other races should get more upgrades to increase the variety of strategies and also the margin of error! I don't want the game to be any easier for me, just make it as equally hard for P and Z:
- nerf creep in early to midgame and have an uprade for better lategame creep to make up for it, but the amount of permanent map vision granted on these large maps is just retarded
- make MSC harder to use, eg move Time Warp to later stages of the game - make it an upgrade or sth.
- make Photon Overcharge drain the Nexus' energy or not regenerating it while active, so there's a downside to use it
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
Not being needlessly controversial here, I genuinely think Blizzard are worried about maintaining the playerbase if they were to make Zerg and Protoss, especially the latter 'as hard' as Terran for LoTV.
It's the move I'd like to see personally, I think increasing some requirements will see more scope for stylistic divergence and a better experience for all, but I'm not sure they'll make it .
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On May 21 2014 18:16 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 17:41 Karpfen wrote:On May 19 2014 19:33 Xequecal wrote:On May 19 2014 19:14 Big J wrote:
Mutas were hardly ever played towards the end of WoL and only successful against very straight Robo macro builds (so the type of no SG, no/late blink, fast colossus).
Blink and Storm was completely sufficient against them and 4speed or 3.75speed will hardly make a difference in terms of how fast you can switch locations.
You absolutly cannot contain a Protoss to two bases with mutas, because a good Protoss has his third up long before even 2base mutas can hit it and a SG opening that already has 5phoenixes on the field would still demolish all those 2base muta plays anyways.
Not to mention that there is Nexus canon now as well and Protoss isn't lost in basetrades anymore with recall. Why do 2 base muta? 3 hatch before pool into 3 base muta. 3 hatch before pool is pretty standard right now against Protoss, and against a gate expand I don't see how you can ever lose. You'll have your muta spam going before their third base even finishes, can overpower any Phoenix opening, and that just leaves blink stalkers. I'll admit that on some of the maps with shorter distances one might be able to defend with blink stalkers, but on the majority they can just fly to a base where your stalkers aren't, then when you blink over fly to the third base and destroy probes with impunity. Nexus cannon can't deter giant mutalisk flocks any better than a half dozen photon cannons didn't in WoL. So, let me get this straight: in WoL you could hold third bases vs straight-to-muta play but in HotS you can't because of 0.25 speed more? It's not the speed, it's the regen. You could stabilise with +attack Blink Stalkers until you got Templar out without taking critical damage if you played well, because you can whittle down Mutas, each time they take a volley it increases the risk to the Zerg for coming back around with low health Mutas. Now they come back with full HP, and some extra numbers if the Zerg player is committing. I hate their impact on the matchup, they should be effective units when controlled carefully against even good players. Instead they are far too good at pinning a ground army into its home territory, and next to useless vs a prepared player with Stargate(s) up. I have no idea how to 'fix' this, or Zerg's problems with Protoss air without wholesale changes, some will doubtless disagree if it's something that needs fixing, which I understand as it's not 'broken' because Phoenixes annihilate Mutas. Frankly in terms of balance I find super Mutas one of the most problematic units in HoTS, Swarmhosts are boring so they get all the flak, but snowballing flocks of regenning, super fast Mutas or the lack thereof is what so often dictates TvZ games ATM as well. Spores had to be changed because of Mutas in ZvZ
The argument started with "what would happen if phoenix got 1range rolled into the pulse cristal upgrade and mutalisks got their regeneration rolled into a Hive tech upgrade" and Xequecal's point was that because of the extra speed in HotS it would be impossible for Protoss to deal with them.
Hence Karpfen's comment. 
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
Ah my mistake. I'd maybe go with a catch-all upgrade for both a bit of extra speed and extra regen at Hive and keep it off the Spire so you don't have to cut into upgrades, and have Mutas toned down but with slightly better speed/regen than their WoL counterparts off the bat.
I can't see how you can revert them to WoL Mutas without breaking vT
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On May 21 2014 18:44 Wombat_NI wrote:
Ah my mistake. I'd maybe go with a catch-all upgrade for both a bit of extra speed and extra regen at Hive and keep it off the Spire so you don't have to cut into upgrades, and have Mutas toned down but with slightly better speed/regen than their WoL counterparts off the bat.
I can't see how you can revert them to WoL Mutas without breaking vT
Reducing Regen/Speed to a middle ground might work.
Remember maps are more in Zergs favor, so there's room to experiment.
For now, I just want to see what new hellbat strategies can do for the game :D
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On May 21 2014 18:44 Wombat_NI wrote:
Ah my mistake. I'd maybe go with a catch-all upgrade for both a bit of extra speed and extra regen at Hive and keep it off the Spire so you don't have to cut into upgrades, and have Mutas toned down but with slightly better speed/regen than their WoL counterparts off the bat.
I can't see how you can revert them to WoL Mutas without breaking vT
ZvT is broken already.
With HotS Zerg got their super-regen Mutas and Terrans got Widow Mines. Both evened out each other pretty much. Then the WMs got nerfed. No wonder the Mutas are dominating now.
Btw... the WMs weren't nerfed for balance issues, but due to the MU being stale and boring (which it was indeed imo). Now it's not stale and boring anymore, but imbalanced as whatever. Well... actually it's pretty boring now too, because in most cases you'll know who wins before the match even started by looking at the race icons.
Imo the Muta regen should be toned down quite a bit. Then you can also revert the Spore +dmg vs bio buff and don't need the BL frenzy buff. Then you can leave Swarmhosts as they are, because BLs can be used. Tadaa... all issues solved.
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On May 21 2014 19:03 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 18:44 Wombat_NI wrote:
Ah my mistake. I'd maybe go with a catch-all upgrade for both a bit of extra speed and extra regen at Hive and keep it off the Spire so you don't have to cut into upgrades, and have Mutas toned down but with slightly better speed/regen than their WoL counterparts off the bat.
I can't see how you can revert them to WoL Mutas without breaking vT Reducing Regen/Speed to a middle ground might work. Remember maps are more in Zergs favor, so there's room to experiment. For now, I just want to see what new hellbat strategies can do for the game :D
Have you seen soulkey vs bbyong in R3 final? I really liked his build.
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On May 21 2014 19:07 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 18:44 Wombat_NI wrote:
Ah my mistake. I'd maybe go with a catch-all upgrade for both a bit of extra speed and extra regen at Hive and keep it off the Spire so you don't have to cut into upgrades, and have Mutas toned down but with slightly better speed/regen than their WoL counterparts off the bat.
I can't see how you can revert them to WoL Mutas without breaking vT ZvT is broken already. With HotS Zerg got their super-regen Mutas and Terrans got Widow Mines. Both evened out each other pretty much. Then the WMs got nerfed. No wonder the Mutas are dominating now. Btw... the WMs weren't nerfed for balance issues, but due to the MU being stale and boring (which it was indeed imo). Now it's not stale and boring anymore, but imbalanced as whatever. Well... actually it's pretty boring now too, because in most cases you'll know who wins before the match even started by looking at the race icons. Imo the Muta regen should be toned down quite a bit. Then you can also revert the Spore +dmg vs bio buff and don't need the BL frenzy buff. Then you can leave Swarmhosts as they are, because BLs can be used. Tadaa... all issues solved.
while i think that ZvT is slightly shifted in our favour atm i really think the majority of people in this thread are severley over-selling it, its not Bl-infestor level where ZvT wasa free win and unlike bl infestor muta/ling/bane isnt trivially easy to control
the probelm with ZvT is that its a really momentum based matchup hence why it prettymuch rests on a knife edge in terms of balance
if T is too strong zerg cant hold a 4th and so slowly dies because he doesnt have the gas to afford muta/banes / get to hive for 3/3
if T isnt strong enough ( or maps a too big) then the zerg can just hold out untill you reach the 20+ muta balls capable of doing silly ammounts of damage everytime the terran moves out
tho id agrue that 2k/2k worth of muta should be able to do some harrasment damage..
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EPT
