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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 22 2014 18:55 SC2Toastie wrote:
What regen nerf/remove would do is to make committing with Mutalisk a commitment.
Currently, you can fly through marines, take 2 Thor shots, engage 7 turrets, because low health mutalisk regen within half a minute.
In WoL, if you took a ton of damage, your mutalisk would not harass for a long time, nor would they be helpful in the engagement.
THIS! I remember defending mutas with storm in WoL and it worked. In the meantime you could build phoenixes. Now? If you are caught of guard you are dead(+-), mutas eat storm and they are back in few seconds. I loved to storm mutas(and occasionally my own probes  ) and go blink/storm/colossus army. Now I feel like I have to open with stargate every PvZ(or do some allinish opening - and I do not like allins).
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On May 22 2014 19:07 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 18:55 SC2Toastie wrote:
What regen nerf/remove would do is to make committing with Mutalisk a commitment.
Currently, you can fly through marines, take 2 Thor shots, engage 7 turrets, because low health mutalisk regen within half a minute.
In WoL, if you took a ton of damage, your mutalisk would not harass for a long time, nor would they be helpful in the engagement. THIS! I remember defending mutas with storm in WoL and it worked. In the meantime you could build phoenixes. Now? If you are caught of guard you are dead(+-), mutas eat storm and they are back in few seconds. I loved to storm mutas(and occasionally my own probes ) and go blink/storm/colossus army. Now I feel like I have to open with stargate every PvZ(or do some allinish opening - and I do not like allins).
Yeah, I somehow don't feel pitiful for Protoss players that get caught offguard but something. Really not.
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On May 22 2014 19:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 19:07 deacon.frost wrote:On May 22 2014 18:55 SC2Toastie wrote:
What regen nerf/remove would do is to make committing with Mutalisk a commitment.
Currently, you can fly through marines, take 2 Thor shots, engage 7 turrets, because low health mutalisk regen within half a minute.
In WoL, if you took a ton of damage, your mutalisk would not harass for a long time, nor would they be helpful in the engagement. THIS! I remember defending mutas with storm in WoL and it worked. In the meantime you could build phoenixes. Now? If you are caught of guard you are dead(+-), mutas eat storm and they are back in few seconds. I loved to storm mutas(and occasionally my own probes ) and go blink/storm/colossus army. Now I feel like I have to open with stargate every PvZ(or do some allinish opening - and I do not like allins). Yeah, I somehow don't feel pitiful for Protoss players that get caught offguard but something. Really not.
You're always so sour when discussing balance =.=
I'm going to go into that.
Protoss is an easier race to play, people may disagree, but I (being a Random player) am of the opinion that Protoss is the most forgiving race, allows the most room for mistakes and has the most straightforward gameplans all game long. Turtling all day is not a problem, ezpz amovesqueezy (that's exaggerated  ).
It is however always a shame if somebody loses a game after 30 minutes because he -guessed- wrongly. That is stupid and pretty poor game design. People may like Jaedong doing Mutalisk killmoves, but it is akin to the Protoss book of bullshit if you ask me. Just doing something random and predictable that even if predicted still has the potency to kill you.
We want Starcraft to be a clash of skillful players outplaying each other, not some kind of real time poker.
LotV should make Protoss much harder to play and punish the 20 minute turtle (without Swarmhosts, that is so fucking stupid -,-), Zerg more microable and Terran should mostly be more stable, preferably with better Tanks or a Spidermine. It should become impossible to sit on your arse and make a near unbeatable army. Both Terran and Zerg need interesting answers to Protoss deathballs that are acchievable by abusing the turtle, and SC2 economy caps at about 3 bases (possibly 4 for gas) so turtling is way to rewarded.
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On May 22 2014 19:06 Wombat_NI wrote:
I much preferred that aspect of WoL, separated the top guys who were really good at babysitting their mutas. I just worry about how much you'd change with tweaks is all.
I'm for halving the regeneration perhaps, with a lategame upgrade to take it back up to its current rate, but am still waiting a bit before I start spamming :p
Honestly, just removing regen would be just fine. It was a pretty unwarranted buff anyway.
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Northern Ireland26362 Posts
I worry that pushing regen too far back will make parade pushes incredibly hard to stop. As it is it might be too much regen, but it does let Mutas disengage, heal up and subsequently return to the fray, if you take it away entirely one mistake for a Z = unstoppable pushes
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 22 2014 19:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 19:07 deacon.frost wrote:On May 22 2014 18:55 SC2Toastie wrote:
What regen nerf/remove would do is to make committing with Mutalisk a commitment.
Currently, you can fly through marines, take 2 Thor shots, engage 7 turrets, because low health mutalisk regen within half a minute.
In WoL, if you took a ton of damage, your mutalisk would not harass for a long time, nor would they be helpful in the engagement. THIS! I remember defending mutas with storm in WoL and it worked. In the meantime you could build phoenixes. Now? If you are caught of guard you are dead(+-), mutas eat storm and they are back in few seconds. I loved to storm mutas(and occasionally my own probes ) and go blink/storm/colossus army. Now I feel like I have to open with stargate every PvZ(or do some allinish opening - and I do not like allins). Yeah, I somehow don't feel pitiful for Protoss players that get caught offguard but something. Really not.
I can live with being caught with my pants down, but I don't like guessing game. Guessing is wrong no matter who does it - T, P or Z.
BTW I play random from time to time, but profile myself as a P player because my Protoss is 2 leagues above my T/Z and I just love Protoss as a race and I play them most often ;-)
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On May 22 2014 19:26 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 19:20 Big J wrote:On May 22 2014 19:07 deacon.frost wrote:On May 22 2014 18:55 SC2Toastie wrote:
What regen nerf/remove would do is to make committing with Mutalisk a commitment.
Currently, you can fly through marines, take 2 Thor shots, engage 7 turrets, because low health mutalisk regen within half a minute.
In WoL, if you took a ton of damage, your mutalisk would not harass for a long time, nor would they be helpful in the engagement. THIS! I remember defending mutas with storm in WoL and it worked. In the meantime you could build phoenixes. Now? If you are caught of guard you are dead(+-), mutas eat storm and they are back in few seconds. I loved to storm mutas(and occasionally my own probes ) and go blink/storm/colossus army. Now I feel like I have to open with stargate every PvZ(or do some allinish opening - and I do not like allins). Yeah, I somehow don't feel pitiful for Protoss players that get caught offguard but something. Really not. You're always so sour when discussing balance =.= I'm going to go into that. Protoss is an easier race to play, people may disagree, but I (being a Random player) am of the opinion that Protoss is the most forgiving race, allows the most room for mistakes and has the most straightforward gameplans all game long. Turtling all day is not a problem, ezpz amovesqueezy (that's exaggerated ). It is however always a shame if somebody loses a game after 30 minutes because he -guessed- wrongly. That is stupid and pretty poor game design. People may like Jaedong doing Mutalisk killmoves, but it is akin to the Protoss book of bullshit if you ask me. Just doing something random and predictable that even if predicted still has the potency to kill you. We want Starcraft to be a clash of skillful players outplaying each other, not some kind of real time poker. LotV should make Protoss much harder to play and punish the 20 minute turtle (without Swarmhosts, that is so fucking stupid -,-), Zerg more microable and Terran should mostly be more stable, preferably with better Tanks or a Spidermine. It should become impossible to sit on your arse and make a near unbeatable army. Both Terran and Zerg need interesting answers to Protoss deathballs that are acchievable by abusing the turtle, and SC2 economy caps at about 3 bases (possibly 4 for gas) so turtling is way to rewarded.
Because it bothers me when people come in with all those ancient WoL comparisons.
I am de facto responding to a guy praising the state of end WoL PvZ where mutalisks were barely playable because of what he said. Standard Protoss deathball turtles through it with hardly any deviation, Protoss leaves a bunch of canons and few templar/archons behind it and goes for the killmove that is still just about hitting before or after Broodlords.
And well, if after 30mins you are still not semiprepared for mutalisks and the zerg has gotten to the bank to build 30+mutas at once and Protoss does not have the bank to respond with either phoenixes or just being all over the zerg and forcing the mutas to defend (at which they are really bad), then yes, zerg just outplayed the Protoss.
I mean you bring that example of Code S
+ Show Spoiler +where sOs prepared for mutalisks just to die against infestor/hydra play. But that's not even the story of this game. The story of that game was that sOs lost what, 6,7,8 VRs for nothing before recalling out because of sloppy control.
And not only that. You can make phoenixes count without mutas on the battlefield. You can rape whole dronelines with them, shoot every overlord on the map, pick up any smaller amount of units. That's what we see time and time again and sOs would have done exactly that too had he had the time for it and wouldn't he have gotten rolled by a timing that worked so well because he had lost a huge junk of his army.
I mean he was building double colossi alongside his phoenixes and with those extra VRs they would have popped. He would have stood a great chance with his then 160supply against the maxed Shine.
If you don't want these forms of lategame techswitches that kill Protoss then give Zerg tools that allow them to force an engagment with a player sitting behind a wall and canons.
That is exactly what I have been proposing since mid 2011. That's exactly what prozergs have been saying since 2010. Zerg does not have tools to kill an opponent. That's why we see every zerg in the whole world expand expand expand and put on economical pressure to force the opponent out. That's why Snute says he is sorry for playing mass Muta/ling/bling and never attack, just kill the Terran expansions with mutas.
That's why we saw Zergs rush out Broodlords everygame in WoL, because that is the unit that allows zerg to attack from sufficient distance without getting all its army killed from something technically inferior behind a wall.
Yes, nerf mutas. I said it since they proposed that patch in the HotS beta, the mutalisk is the last zerg unit that needed a buff and was a reasonable techchoice in all 3matchups in WoL. Maybe they need or needed something against mines, but hell, against nothing else. I believe it is the core reason for current TvZ imbalance.
But when you have to argue these points with people who as sole reason for nerfing mutas tell you that "I don't want to open phoenix. I want to defend them while going Colossus.", then no, really not. If that's the whole reasoning why Mutas should get nerfed without a compensation in PvZ so that a bunch of strong timing attacks aren't allin anymore and doing some of the most boring turtleplay in the form of massing Colossi gets easier. Then yes, I'm going to be selfish and say deal with it, I have to put up with getting Immortal allined in one of its many variations every 4th PvZ on the ladder as well.
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On May 22 2014 19:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
I worry that pushing regen too far back will make parade pushes incredibly hard to stop. As it is it might be too much regen, but it does let Mutas disengage, heal up and subsequently return to the fray, if you take it away entirely one mistake for a Z = unstoppable pushes
One bad baneling hit from Z and it's pretty much game over for Terran as well. The problem with a muta flock is that once it gets too large there is just no stopping it. I've seen a lot of zergs stalling the parade push with ling/bling while using the muta flock to harass the T at home. Static defense is useless because the mutalisks can heal up anyway. The only times when I've seen a Z player with a muta flock of 20+ mutalisks lose is when they accidentally fly over two or more mines. Otherwise, the flock will not die.
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On May 22 2014 20:12 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 19:26 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 22 2014 19:20 Big J wrote:On May 22 2014 19:07 deacon.frost wrote:On May 22 2014 18:55 SC2Toastie wrote:
What regen nerf/remove would do is to make committing with Mutalisk a commitment.
Currently, you can fly through marines, take 2 Thor shots, engage 7 turrets, because low health mutalisk regen within half a minute.
In WoL, if you took a ton of damage, your mutalisk would not harass for a long time, nor would they be helpful in the engagement. THIS! I remember defending mutas with storm in WoL and it worked. In the meantime you could build phoenixes. Now? If you are caught of guard you are dead(+-), mutas eat storm and they are back in few seconds. I loved to storm mutas(and occasionally my own probes ) and go blink/storm/colossus army. Now I feel like I have to open with stargate every PvZ(or do some allinish opening - and I do not like allins). Yeah, I somehow don't feel pitiful for Protoss players that get caught offguard but something. Really not. You're always so sour when discussing balance =.= I'm going to go into that. Protoss is an easier race to play, people may disagree, but I (being a Random player) am of the opinion that Protoss is the most forgiving race, allows the most room for mistakes and has the most straightforward gameplans all game long. Turtling all day is not a problem, ezpz amovesqueezy (that's exaggerated ). It is however always a shame if somebody loses a game after 30 minutes because he -guessed- wrongly. That is stupid and pretty poor game design. People may like Jaedong doing Mutalisk killmoves, but it is akin to the Protoss book of bullshit if you ask me. Just doing something random and predictable that even if predicted still has the potency to kill you. We want Starcraft to be a clash of skillful players outplaying each other, not some kind of real time poker. LotV should make Protoss much harder to play and punish the 20 minute turtle (without Swarmhosts, that is so fucking stupid -,-), Zerg more microable and Terran should mostly be more stable, preferably with better Tanks or a Spidermine. It should become impossible to sit on your arse and make a near unbeatable army. Both Terran and Zerg need interesting answers to Protoss deathballs that are acchievable by abusing the turtle, and SC2 economy caps at about 3 bases (possibly 4 for gas) so turtling is way to rewarded. Because it bothers me when people come in with all those ancient WoL comparisons. I am de facto responding to a guy praising the state of end WoL PvZ where mutalisks were barely playable because of what he said. Standard Protoss deathball turtles through it with hardly any deviation, Protoss leaves a bunch of canons and few templar/archons behind it and goes for the killmove that is still just about hitting before or after Broodlords. And well, if after 30mins you are still not semiprepared for mutalisks and the zerg has gotten to the bank to build 30+mutas at once and Protoss does not have the bank to respond with either phoenixes or just being all over the zerg and forcing the mutas to defend (at which they are really bad), then yes, zerg just outplayed the Protoss. I mean you bring that example of Code S + Show Spoiler +where sOs prepared for mutalisks just to die against infestor/hydra play. But that's not even the story of this game. The story of that game was that sOs lost what, 6,7,8 VRs for nothing before recalling out because of sloppy control.
And not only that. You can make phoenixes count without mutas on the battlefield. You can rape whole dronelines with them, shoot every overlord on the map, pick up any smaller amount of units. That's what we see time and time again and sOs would have done exactly that too had he had the time for it and wouldn't he have gotten rolled by a timing that worked so well because he had lost a huge junk of his army.
I mean he was building double colossi alongside his phoenixes and with those extra VRs they would have popped. He would have stood a great chance with his then 160supply against the maxed Shine. If you don't want these forms of lategame techswitches that kill Protoss then give Zerg tools that allow them to force an engagment with a player sitting behind a wall and canons. That is exactly what I have been proposing since mid 2011. That's exactly what prozergs have been saying since 2010. Zerg does not have tools to kill an opponent. That's why we see every zerg in the whole world expand expand expand and put on economical pressure to force the opponent out. That's why Snute says he is sorry for playing mass Muta/ling/bling and never attack, just kill the Terran expansions with mutas. That's why we saw Zergs rush out Broodlords everygame in WoL, because that is the unit that allows zerg to attack from sufficient distance without getting all its army killed from something technically inferior behind a wall. Yes, nerf mutas. I said it since they proposed that patch in the HotS beta, the mutalisk is the last zerg unit that needed a buff and was a reasonable techchoice in all 3matchups in WoL. Maybe they need or needed something against mines, but hell, against nothing else. I believe it is the core reason for current TvZ imbalance. But when you have to argue these points with people who as sole reason for nerfing mutas tell you that "I don't want to open phoenix. I want to defend them while going Colossus.", then no, really not. If that's the whole reasoning why Mutas should get nerfed without a compensation in PvZ so that a bunch of strong timing attacks aren't allin anymore and doing some of the most boring turtleplay in the form of massing Colossi gets easier. Then yes, I'm going to be selfish and say deal with it, I have to put up with getting Immortal allined in one of its many variations every 4th PvZ on the ladder as well.
Well, you're pretty right with that, although I have to say that the bottom line argument "I don't want to open X every single time to be safe against Y" is not completely wrong, as while these kinds of stalemates sure can add strategical depth on a very small scale, they usually tend to make games really one-dimensional -> TvP (always reaper expand every single game, still they're variations with 2 rax, 3 rax, 1/1/1, but eventually it's bio vs turtle into a-move  ).
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The point I am making, is that it is silly for Protoss to be caught of guard and lose a game because of it.
It's a matter of infrastructure I don't expect you as a Zerg to fully grasp.
Both armies fight. Protoss usually wins but can't push for the kill, has some random bits of army leftover. Zerg loses the fight but is back on 200/200 instantly.
Mutalisk? Protoss needs to have at least 3 Star Phoenix (preferably 5) prepared, with Fleet Beacon, Anion Pulse Crystals, Air attack upgrades (Phoenix damage dies down real fast) and needs to start producting them after the fight.
Ultralisk? Protoss wants 2/3 Robotics with Immortals producing instantly.
Roach Hydra? Gatewayunits and Collosi.
Some tech remax (SH/BL), a whole different brand of tech.
The problem is Protoss has to invest SO MUCH to account for all the tech switches Zerg can do that Protoss ends up going for a gamble if they don't have a massive bank themselves.
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On May 22 2014 20:54 SC2Toastie wrote:
The point I am making, is that it is silly for Protoss to be caught of guard and lose a game because of it.
It's a matter of infrastructure I don't expect you as a Zerg to fully grasp.
Both armies fight. Protoss usually wins but can't push for the kill, has some random bits of army leftover. Zerg loses the fight but is back on 200/200 instantly.
Mutalisk? Protoss needs to have at least 3 Star Phoenix (preferably 5) prepared, with Fleet Beacon, Anion Pulse Crystals, Air attack upgrades (Phoenix damage dies down real fast) and needs to start producting them after the fight.
Ultralisk? Protoss wants 2/3 Robotics with Immortals producing instantly.
Roach Hydra? Gatewayunits and Collosi.
Some tech remax (SH/BL), a whole different brand of tech.
The problem is Protoss has to invest SO MUCH to account for all the tech switches Zerg can do that Protoss ends up going for a gamble if they don't have a massive bank themselves.
It's silly for every race to be caught off guard and lose a game because of it. But that's just how it goes, after all it's a game of information and if you don't have that information and took a wrong guess, you're done for.
Also what's up with the aggressive tone? As Terran I could tell you stories of losing games to 1 Oracle or DTs or Blink or... you get it? Also talking about infrastructure as Protoss lol... See?
That simply is no constructive discussion, I know, emotions are involved, but better keep them aside and stick to the topic.
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On May 22 2014 20:12 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 19:26 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 22 2014 19:20 Big J wrote:On May 22 2014 19:07 deacon.frost wrote:On May 22 2014 18:55 SC2Toastie wrote:
What regen nerf/remove would do is to make committing with Mutalisk a commitment.
Currently, you can fly through marines, take 2 Thor shots, engage 7 turrets, because low health mutalisk regen within half a minute.
In WoL, if you took a ton of damage, your mutalisk would not harass for a long time, nor would they be helpful in the engagement. THIS! I remember defending mutas with storm in WoL and it worked. In the meantime you could build phoenixes. Now? If you are caught of guard you are dead(+-), mutas eat storm and they are back in few seconds. I loved to storm mutas(and occasionally my own probes ) and go blink/storm/colossus army. Now I feel like I have to open with stargate every PvZ(or do some allinish opening - and I do not like allins). Yeah, I somehow don't feel pitiful for Protoss players that get caught offguard but something. Really not. You're always so sour when discussing balance =.= I'm going to go into that. Protoss is an easier race to play, people may disagree, but I (being a Random player) am of the opinion that Protoss is the most forgiving race, allows the most room for mistakes and has the most straightforward gameplans all game long. Turtling all day is not a problem, ezpz amovesqueezy (that's exaggerated ). It is however always a shame if somebody loses a game after 30 minutes because he -guessed- wrongly. That is stupid and pretty poor game design. People may like Jaedong doing Mutalisk killmoves, but it is akin to the Protoss book of bullshit if you ask me. Just doing something random and predictable that even if predicted still has the potency to kill you. We want Starcraft to be a clash of skillful players outplaying each other, not some kind of real time poker. LotV should make Protoss much harder to play and punish the 20 minute turtle (without Swarmhosts, that is so fucking stupid -,-), Zerg more microable and Terran should mostly be more stable, preferably with better Tanks or a Spidermine. It should become impossible to sit on your arse and make a near unbeatable army. Both Terran and Zerg need interesting answers to Protoss deathballs that are acchievable by abusing the turtle, and SC2 economy caps at about 3 bases (possibly 4 for gas) so turtling is way to rewarded. Because it bothers me when people come in with all those ancient WoL comparisons. I am de facto responding to a guy praising the state of end WoL PvZ where mutalisks were barely playable because of what he said. Standard Protoss deathball turtles through it with hardly any deviation, Protoss leaves a bunch of canons and few templar/archons behind it and goes for the killmove that is still just about hitting before or after Broodlords. And well, if after 30mins you are still not semiprepared for mutalisks and the zerg has gotten to the bank to build 30+mutas at once and Protoss does not have the bank to respond with either phoenixes or just being all over the zerg and forcing the mutas to defend (at which they are really bad), then yes, zerg just outplayed the Protoss. I mean you bring that example of Code S + Show Spoiler +where sOs prepared for mutalisks just to die against infestor/hydra play. But that's not even the story of this game. The story of that game was that sOs lost what, 6,7,8 VRs for nothing before recalling out because of sloppy control.
And not only that. You can make phoenixes count without mutas on the battlefield. You can rape whole dronelines with them, shoot every overlord on the map, pick up any smaller amount of units. That's what we see time and time again and sOs would have done exactly that too had he had the time for it and wouldn't he have gotten rolled by a timing that worked so well because he had lost a huge junk of his army.
I mean he was building double colossi alongside his phoenixes and with those extra VRs they would have popped. He would have stood a great chance with his then 160supply against the maxed Shine. If you don't want these forms of lategame techswitches that kill Protoss then give Zerg tools that allow them to force an engagment with a player sitting behind a wall and canons. That is exactly what I have been proposing since mid 2011. That's exactly what prozergs have been saying since 2010. Zerg does not have tools to kill an opponent. That's why we see every zerg in the whole world expand expand expand and put on economical pressure to force the opponent out. That's why Snute says he is sorry for playing mass Muta/ling/bling and never attack, just kill the Terran expansions with mutas. That's why we saw Zergs rush out Broodlords everygame in WoL, because that is the unit that allows zerg to attack from sufficient distance without getting all its army killed from something technically inferior behind a wall. Yes, nerf mutas. I said it since they proposed that patch in the HotS beta, the mutalisk is the last zerg unit that needed a buff and was a reasonable techchoice in all 3matchups in WoL. Maybe they need or needed something against mines, but hell, against nothing else. I believe it is the core reason for current TvZ imbalance. But when you have to argue these points with people who as sole reason for nerfing mutas tell you that "I don't want to open phoenix. I want to defend them while going Colossus.", then no, really not. If that's the whole reasoning why Mutas should get nerfed without a compensation in PvZ so that a bunch of strong timing attacks aren't allin anymore and doing some of the most boring turtleplay in the form of massing Colossi gets easier. Then yes, I'm going to be selfish and say deal with it, I have to put up with getting Immortal allined in one of its many variations every 4th PvZ on the ladder as well.
tbh i think a lot of the problems with PvZ stem from the fact that no compostion is good enough to sit on as it eventually gets hardcountered
( phoenix rapes muta, vr rapes corruptors, collosus kills anything not ultras, ultras die to immortals, vipers are unusable the second templar are out), while the matchup isnt imbalanced by any means, it creates these situations where the only way to kill the protoss is massive unesxpected tech switches to abuse his composition, or to hit a specific timing/window ( ie broods push before tempests etc)
though id be hesitant not to over-nerf muta, theres a reason people open every ZvT with muta is that you will straight up die to drops withough them ( hence why no-one plays roach hdyra), and again a small nerf could lead to a large snowball effect with zergs never being able to grow the mutaball/ have gas to go 3/3 or other tech
also id point out a lot of the muta buffing was due to widow mines, and how prettymuch all the mutas would be bruised from the splash during the fight. Tbh a lot of the problems stem form the sheer size of the map pool this season, i literally see know way you can lose ZvT on waystation cross or alterzim
duno why anyone would dislike opening phoenix, even as a zerg i think there one of the best designed units in the game, and while you cant pressure u can often get drone kills/queen kills free ovies and some undeniable scouting/map control
PS: every forth game on ladder, damn what league are you in? i got immortal allined/gateway pressured prettymuch everygame
heck other than my clanmates iv only every played 1 person on ladder who opened phoenix XD
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On May 22 2014 20:54 SC2Toastie wrote:
The point I am making, is that it is silly for Protoss to be caught of guard and lose a game because of it.
It's a matter of infrastructure I don't expect you as a Zerg to fully grasp.
Both armies fight. Protoss usually wins but can't push for the kill, has some random bits of army leftover. Zerg loses the fight but is back on 200/200 instantly.
Mutalisk? Protoss needs to have at least 3 Star Phoenix (preferably 5) prepared, with Fleet Beacon, Anion Pulse Crystals, Air attack upgrades (Phoenix damage dies down real fast) and needs to start producting them after the fight.
Ultralisk? Protoss wants 2/3 Robotics with Immortals producing instantly.
Roach Hydra? Gatewayunits and Collosi.
Some tech remax (SH/BL), a whole different brand of tech.
The problem is Protoss has to invest SO MUCH to account for all the tech switches Zerg can do that Protoss ends up going for a gamble if they don't have a massive bank themselves.
Well, it's silly to begin with that Protoss usually wins that first fight.
Again, exactly what I was talking about: Zerg sits on 200/200 for a few minutes stockpiling money but not being able to attack, yet Protoss doesn't come out until they have a 200/200 that usually wins the first fight, so the one play Zerg has is to remax.
And it really swings both ways. Zerg remaxes on mutas and Protoss has phoenix, then Zerg is at a disadvantage and so on. Not to mention that for a roach/hydra remax you basically have to kill every Colossus and High Templar on the map in the first combat, which makes me wonder what that army consists of that is left after Protoss "won" the engagement.
@Enigmasc: have been around low masters/high diamond (only unranked) for the last few weeks (could maybe be higher if I didn't just leave half of my ZvZs right at the start and currently gone back to a little bit of Terraning; I'm usually matchup picking. TvZ, TvT, ZvP or ZvT).
Every 4th game is a rough estimate of immortal allin variations. But that's really just the 3-4gate into immortal, plain immortal/sentry or immortal/zealot all with or without a drop first. Macro games in PvZ, quite less often. But then it is usually phoenixes or an oracle.
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On May 22 2014 21:05 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 20:54 SC2Toastie wrote:
The point I am making, is that it is silly for Protoss to be caught of guard and lose a game because of it.
It's a matter of infrastructure I don't expect you as a Zerg to fully grasp.
Both armies fight. Protoss usually wins but can't push for the kill, has some random bits of army leftover. Zerg loses the fight but is back on 200/200 instantly.
Mutalisk? Protoss needs to have at least 3 Star Phoenix (preferably 5) prepared, with Fleet Beacon, Anion Pulse Crystals, Air attack upgrades (Phoenix damage dies down real fast) and needs to start producting them after the fight.
Ultralisk? Protoss wants 2/3 Robotics with Immortals producing instantly.
Roach Hydra? Gatewayunits and Collosi.
Some tech remax (SH/BL), a whole different brand of tech.
The problem is Protoss has to invest SO MUCH to account for all the tech switches Zerg can do that Protoss ends up going for a gamble if they don't have a massive bank themselves. It's silly for every race to be caught off guard and lose a game because of it. But that's just how it goes, after all it's a game of information and if you don't have that information and took a wrong guess, you're done for. Also what's up with the aggressive tone? As Terran I could tell you stories of losing games to 1 Oracle or DTs or Blink or... you get it? Also talking about infrastructure as Protoss lol... See? That simply is no constructive discussion, I know, emotions are involved, but better keep them aside and stick to the topic.
It's a game of information, yes. How much information is there to extract from seeing Zerg change Larvae to eggs?
Exactly - None. That is one of the bigger problems with switching tech from Zerg, there is no information to be gathered, it's all down to making an educated guess, nothing more, nothing less.
What aggressive tone? Just trying to be clear. I know Terrans have lost tons of games to cheesy Protosses, but as you say, scouting can kinda deal with that. Blink has been fixed via maps.
Lastly, I play random, and yes, Protoss lategame infrastructure is probably about as expensive as Terrans.
On May 22 2014 21:21 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 20:54 SC2Toastie wrote:
The point I am making, is that it is silly for Protoss to be caught of guard and lose a game because of it.
It's a matter of infrastructure I don't expect you as a Zerg to fully grasp.
Both armies fight. Protoss usually wins but can't push for the kill, has some random bits of army leftover. Zerg loses the fight but is back on 200/200 instantly.
Mutalisk? Protoss needs to have at least 3 Star Phoenix (preferably 5) prepared, with Fleet Beacon, Anion Pulse Crystals, Air attack upgrades (Phoenix damage dies down real fast) and needs to start producting them after the fight.
Ultralisk? Protoss wants 2/3 Robotics with Immortals producing instantly.
Roach Hydra? Gatewayunits and Collosi.
Some tech remax (SH/BL), a whole different brand of tech.
The problem is Protoss has to invest SO MUCH to account for all the tech switches Zerg can do that Protoss ends up going for a gamble if they don't have a massive bank themselves. Well, it's silly to begin with that Protoss usually wins that first fight. Again, exactly what I was talking about: Zerg sits on 200/200 for a few minutes stockpiling money but not being able to attack, yet Protoss doesn't come out until they have a 200/200 that usually wins the first fight, so the one play Zerg has is to remax. And it really swings both ways. Zerg remaxes on mutas and Protoss has phoenix, then Zerg is at a disadvantage and so on. Not to mention that for a roach/hydra remax you basically have to kill every Colossus and High Templar on the map in the first combat, which makes me wonder what that army consists of that is left after Protoss "won" the engagement.
And you comment is?
It's not silly Protoss wins that fight.
While Zerg goes around the map and expands, gets more resources and especially more gas, Protoss invests funds into getting an army that is very powerful but very tech heavy.
They fight, Protoss wins that, because they invested in getting a more powerful army, Zerg has more funds so they have multiple armies.
I agree the Protoss army is too versatile and strong atm, and way too easy to control, but that is also partially a problem with the economy in this game and partially with warpgate/forcefield/MSC/other idiotic additions to Protoss.
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On May 22 2014 21:33 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 21:05 Creager wrote:On May 22 2014 20:54 SC2Toastie wrote:
The point I am making, is that it is silly for Protoss to be caught of guard and lose a game because of it.
It's a matter of infrastructure I don't expect you as a Zerg to fully grasp.
Both armies fight. Protoss usually wins but can't push for the kill, has some random bits of army leftover. Zerg loses the fight but is back on 200/200 instantly.
Mutalisk? Protoss needs to have at least 3 Star Phoenix (preferably 5) prepared, with Fleet Beacon, Anion Pulse Crystals, Air attack upgrades (Phoenix damage dies down real fast) and needs to start producting them after the fight.
Ultralisk? Protoss wants 2/3 Robotics with Immortals producing instantly.
Roach Hydra? Gatewayunits and Collosi.
Some tech remax (SH/BL), a whole different brand of tech.
The problem is Protoss has to invest SO MUCH to account for all the tech switches Zerg can do that Protoss ends up going for a gamble if they don't have a massive bank themselves. It's silly for every race to be caught off guard and lose a game because of it. But that's just how it goes, after all it's a game of information and if you don't have that information and took a wrong guess, you're done for. Also what's up with the aggressive tone? As Terran I could tell you stories of losing games to 1 Oracle or DTs or Blink or... you get it? Also talking about infrastructure as Protoss lol... See? That simply is no constructive discussion, I know, emotions are involved, but better keep them aside and stick to the topic. It's a game of information, yes. How much information is there to extract from seeing Zerg change Larvae to eggs? Exactly - None. That is one of the bigger problems with switching tech from Zerg, there is no information to be gathered, it's all down to making an educated guess, nothing more, nothing less. What aggressive tone? Just trying to be clear. I know Terrans have lost tons of games to cheesy Protosses, but as you say, scouting can kinda deal with that. Blink has been fixed via maps. Lastly, I play random, and yes, Protoss lategame infrastructure is probably about as expensive as Terrans.
You showed condescending behaviour towards him as a Zerg player as if he'd be unable to comprehend what infrastructure means, that's aggressive.
You're comparing apples with oranges here. You can't exactly see what's being produced from gates or barracks etc., either (ok, from T you can actually guess by spotting respective addons or Stargate from Protoss).
Also ever since I've started playing StarCraft it has (at least for me) always been focussed on transitioning due to experience (eg anticipating an imminent tech switch to Mutas and thus building 1-2 Thors in advance, but leaves you more open to mind games -> mass Roach timing) than a pure reactional transitioning (eg. starting Thors and Turrets when you've just spotted Mutas flying towards your base), so I don't see your problem with it.
You cannot expect to win games relying solely on your scouting Information, you always have to think in advance so you can consider what you're opponent could do next to catch you off guard, that's what makes 1v1 interesting/frustrating.
edit: fuck Windows 8 auto correct not recognizing I'm not writing German T.T
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On May 22 2014 22:08 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 21:33 SC2Toastie wrote:On May 22 2014 21:05 Creager wrote:On May 22 2014 20:54 SC2Toastie wrote:
The point I am making, is that it is silly for Protoss to be caught of guard and lose a game because of it.
It's a matter of infrastructure I don't expect you as a Zerg to fully grasp.
Both armies fight. Protoss usually wins but can't push for the kill, has some random bits of army leftover. Zerg loses the fight but is back on 200/200 instantly.
Mutalisk? Protoss needs to have at least 3 Star Phoenix (preferably 5) prepared, with Fleet Beacon, Anion Pulse Crystals, Air attack upgrades (Phoenix damage dies down real fast) and needs to start producting them after the fight.
Ultralisk? Protoss wants 2/3 Robotics with Immortals producing instantly.
Roach Hydra? Gatewayunits and Collosi.
Some tech remax (SH/BL), a whole different brand of tech.
The problem is Protoss has to invest SO MUCH to account for all the tech switches Zerg can do that Protoss ends up going for a gamble if they don't have a massive bank themselves. It's silly for every race to be caught off guard and lose a game because of it. But that's just how it goes, after all it's a game of information and if you don't have that information and took a wrong guess, you're done for. Also what's up with the aggressive tone? As Terran I could tell you stories of losing games to 1 Oracle or DTs or Blink or... you get it? Also talking about infrastructure as Protoss lol... See? That simply is no constructive discussion, I know, emotions are involved, but better keep them aside and stick to the topic. It's a game of information, yes. How much information is there to extract from seeing Zerg change Larvae to eggs? Exactly - None. That is one of the bigger problems with switching tech from Zerg, there is no information to be gathered, it's all down to making an educated guess, nothing more, nothing less. What aggressive tone? Just trying to be clear. I know Terrans have lost tons of games to cheesy Protosses, but as you say, scouting can kinda deal with that. Blink has been fixed via maps. Lastly, I play random, and yes, Protoss lategame infrastructure is probably about as expensive as Terrans. You showed condescending behaviour towards him as a Zerg player as if he'd be unable to comprehend what infrastructure means, that's aggressive. You're comparing apples with oranges here. You can't exactly see what's being produced from gates or barracks etc., either (ok, from T you can actually guess by spotting respective addons or Stargate from Protoss). Also ever since I've started playing StarCraft it has (at least for me) always been focussed on transitioning due to experience (eg anticipating an imminent tech switch to Mutas and thus building 1-2 Thors in advance, but leaves you more open to mind games -> mass Roach timing) than a pure reactional transitioning (eg. starting Thors and Turrets when you've just spotted Mutas flying towards your base), so I don't see your problem with it. You cannot expect to win games relying solely on your scouting Information, you always have to think in advance so you can consider what you're opponent could do next to catch you off guard, that's what makes 1v1 interesting/frustrating. edit: fuck Windows 8 auto correct not recognizing I'm not writing German T.T
Comprehending how much infrastructure actually costs when you get it as you expand IS hard. I was a Zerg a long long long long long time ago and always underestimated it.
Gateway;
All units suck vs the brute mass Zerg can produce, also, you can instantly see what is building (hurray warp in -,-),
Stargate tells you,
Robotics isn't too hard/dangerous a guess.
Hatchery:
????????
I don't know, you tell me!
You started your previous post telling me Starcraft is a game of information. I agree to that. This post, however, you are telling me I need to predict what my opponent does as a remax ahead of time? That is not a game of information, that is gambling.
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Yes it is somewhat silly. Yet you are the one talking about it being OK for P armies to stomp Z armies and Z having to remax. Well, that is what happens when Zerg remaxes. They choose a tech that the Protoss has a hard time preparing for and won't remax on the same thing that Protoss has already proven to be prepared for.
And you are exaggerating. Protoss can have a solid stock of SGs and phoenixes to begin with. And gateway units arent half as shit as you make them out to be. Archons and Templar to call two very powerful ones.
But yes, you have to play for a 25min game to get the whole setup you may need.
Not to mention that those lategame mutaremaxes arent even a common strategy since they are plainly weaker then straight swarm host play on most maps.
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Northern Ireland26362 Posts
Those remaxes can appear unfair for sure, but equally they occur at a time in the game where the Protoss actually has the capacity to straight-up murder you with their catch-all Stalker/Collosus ball.
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Out of curiosity, is there any common wisdom on what would happen to the racial dynamics if the game had no supply limit?
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On May 22 2014 23:37 pure.Wasted wrote:
Out of curiosity, is there any common wisdom on what would happen to the racial dynamics if the game had no supply limit?
I'd say Protoss reigns surpreme as their AoE is by far the strongest, they have the best aerial army and the most range.
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EPT
