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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 22 2014 17:15 Pursuit_ wrote: Well, you want them to still be effective in that smaller group of them, it's just the 25-30+ muta balls that get out of hand in ZvT or the 5k/5k banks that turn into a 50 muta remax in ZvP. Higher damage + lower hitpoints = what you're asking for. | ||
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Creager
Germany1961 Posts
On May 22 2014 23:05 SC2Toastie wrote: Comprehending how much infrastructure actually costs when you get it as you expand IS hard. I was a Zerg a long long long long long time ago and always underestimated it. Gateway; All units suck vs the brute mass Zerg can produce, also, you can instantly see what is building (hurray warp in -,-), Stargate tells you, Robotics isn't too hard/dangerous a guess. Hatchery: ???????? I don't know, you tell me! You started your previous post telling me Starcraft is a game of information. I agree to that. This post, however, you are telling me I need to predict what my opponent does as a remax ahead of time? That is not a game of information, that is gambling. What i wrote earlier may be a bit misleading, sorry about that, but my intention was to tell you that it's not ONLY a game of information, but also experience. It's like with Marines and Oracles, when looking on paper, it's obvious how it works, but actually if you don't know how many you need and how to position them correctly, you gonna have a huge problem. You can't just rely on scouting it, you need to learn how to respond accordingly (hope you got the point somehow). When I play against Zerg, I almost never focus on scouting eggs from hatcheries tbh, instead I'm trying to determine their tech tree by searching for tech buildings... And occasionally check their army comp (usually do this with P as well at some point). Also tech switches from Zerg is just how the game works for them, it's not possible to attain an impossible-to-beat army without surprising the opponent via tech switches. As Zerg, the economic comfort zone can be reached a bit too fast, that poses a potential problem, but not that I can't see if there's an Ultralisk about to pop from this egg over there... | ||
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Enigmasc
United Kingdom147 Posts
On May 22 2014 23:42 SC2Toastie wrote: I'd say Protoss reigns surpreme as their AoE is by far the strongest, they have the best aerial army and the most range. this might be offtopic but i hoenstly think Z would be the best depnding on the map size things like raoches are actually pretty cost effecient units, the reason there bad lategame is mainly due to them being bad for thier supply as a protoss imagne a 4-5 saturated bases worth of roaches flooding at you :L much like the stephano roach max, only never ending :L that and zerg eco scales the most exponentially and toss the least id say | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 23 2014 00:43 Enigmasc wrote: this might be offtopic but i hoenstly think Z would be the best depnding on the map size things like raoches are actually pretty cost effecient units, the reason there bad lategame is mainly due to them being bad for thier supply as a protoss imagne a 4-5 saturated bases worth of roaches flooding at you :L much like the stephano roach max, only never ending :L that and zerg eco scales the most exponentially and toss the least id say yeah I think Zerg would be best. You wouldn't be limited in drones anymore, so you could actually go to 100drones and more. I think that would be the main problem. Armywise it might actually work out well for some time, but economywise, Zerg could get a stupid amount of bases saturated much faster while still having a huge army. And all those remaxes... Zerg would just have the army that they'd remax on on top of their regular army. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12502 Posts
On May 23 2014 00:43 Enigmasc wrote: this might be offtopic but i hoenstly think Z would be the best depnding on the map size things like raoches are actually pretty cost effecient units, the reason there bad lategame is mainly due to them being bad for thier supply as a protoss imagne a 4-5 saturated bases worth of roaches flooding at you :L much like the stephano roach max, only never ending :L that and zerg eco scales the most exponentially and toss the least id say Intuitively it seems zerg would be by far the best, yeah. I think even terran would be better than toss honestly. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 23 2014 00:50 Nebuchad wrote: Intuitively it seems zerg would be by far the best, yeah. I think even terran would be better than toss honestly. Assuming infinite resources and no supply cap Zerg is the best. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 23 2014 00:52 Thieving Magpie wrote: Assuming infinite resources and no supply cap Zerg is the best. There is a map out there like that. I think it is pretty much in favor of Protoss because of canonrushing with infinite minerals.  Also Protoss can block other races in with nexus walls. Try breaking that :D | ||
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Enigmasc
United Kingdom147 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 23 2014 01:05 Big J wrote: There is a map out there like that. I think it is pretty much in favor of Protoss because of canonrushing with infinite minerals. Also Protoss can block other races in with nexus walls. Try breaking that :D You misunderstand, I'm not saying all things cost 0 I'm saying that minerals don't mine out, gas don't mine out, you play a normal game but resources never run out and there is no supply cap. In a world of 0 cost (or infinite money in bank) the race that can produce the fastest offensive anything wins (cannons) | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 23 2014 01:42 Thieving Magpie wrote: You misunderstand, I'm not saying all things cost 0 I'm saying that minerals don't mine out, gas don't mine out, you play a normal game but resources never run out and there is no supply cap. In a world of 0 cost (or infinite money in bank) the race that can produce the fastest offensive anything wins (cannons) kk, yeah that makes sense. Though it would also be very good for mules I guess. But yeah, without a supply cap my vote goes to Zerg as well. | ||
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Foreverkul
United States1649 Posts
1 base Protoss vs 1 base Gold Terran, how was it even so close? Terran have significantly more resources for a period, yet even 1 base Protoss hold it off rather easily? I can see that MVP took some critical economic damage, but he already had his army and that boost wasn't even close to enough somehow. TOD had warped in at least 6 or so Zealots on the other side of the map which weren't in the final battle and he still won easy. The president that even if Terran starts with gold minerals, they STILL unfavorable match vs Protoss? This is depressing. u_u | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On May 23 2014 03:26 Foreverkul wrote: So MVP vs TOD 1 base Protoss vs 1 base Gold Terran, how was it even so close? Terran have significantly more resources for a period, yet even 1 base Protoss hold it off rather easily? I can see that MVP took some critical economic damage, but he already had his army and that boost wasn't even close to enough somehow. TOD had warped in at least 6 or so Zealots on the other side of the map which weren't in the final battle and he still won easy. The president that even if Terran starts with gold minerals, they STILL unfavorable match vs Protoss? This is depressing. u_u Not at all, economies in SC2 grow exponentially and when you fly the command center over you lose quite a bit of scv production. And even fully saturated gold base mines at the same rate as a normal base, the only difference is that you need less SCVs to fully saturate a gold base than you need to fully saturate a regular base. And Tod held because the economic damage he did forced MVP to push forward when MVP wanted to keep containing. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 23 2014 01:53 Big J wrote: kk, yeah that makes sense. Though it would also be very good for mules I guess. But yeah, without a supply cap my vote goes to Zerg as well. But that's the rub of the caps right? Infinite Resource from the get go and suddenly cannon rushes rule all. No supply cap and suddenly zerg *can* get 300-400 supply when their opponents are still at a paltry 180-210. Mineral lines never dry up and suddenly Mules are just "workhorses" without drawbacks. Limited Minerals + Small starting cash + supply cap are all things to nerf each race to some degree. | ||
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Foreverkul
United States1649 Posts
On May 23 2014 03:31 Pursuit_ wrote: Not at all, economies in SC2 grow exponentially and when you fly the command center over you lose quite a bit of scv production. And even fully saturated gold base mines at the same rate as a normal base, the only difference is that you need less SCVs to fully saturate a gold base than you need to fully saturate a regular base. And Tod held because the economic damage he did forced MVP to push forward when MVP wanted to keep containing. Aren't there the same number of mineral patches on a gold base? And SCVs mine at the same rate of normal/gold, its just they return with more. So how does it "take less" to fully saturate a gold base? Even if you use the initial SCV/probes and subtract a minute from SCV mining you get: 6 SCVs at 55 gold minerals/minute for 4 minutes = 1320 6 probes at 39 minerals.minute for 5 minutes = 1170 This is very simplified (scv/probe production or mules) but my point is that gold base generates a large income advantage over time. The first few minutes the Terran will have less, but after they land their entire economy is boosted by about 40% (gold minerals give 1.4 times normal minerals). Its inevitable that the Terran would have more minerals then the normal base Protoss. This strategy on this map works because of this massive economic boost. In this specific game MVP made some poor decisions, but the concerns stems from the fact that TOD was on 1 base THE WHOLE GAME. 1 base vs 1 base gold, given players of similar skill and races are balanced, the gold base will have an advantage, but TOD clearly had the advantage. Why? Well, I don't imagine TOD is much better or worse than MVP, and TOD never got a 2nd base to offset the gold income economy. This leaves the third option that could indicate races may not be balanced. Despite the damage that TOD did to the economy, MVP already had a massive army so it didn't really matter. But that meant that TOD built a pylon, a warp prism, and 6-8 Zealots that WEREN'T present in the final battle. That's a lot of resources, and MVP had a huge army, yet TOD still won easily. My conclusion: is that Photon Overcharge is too strong and basically uncountable from a Terran standpoint. It costs Protoss nothing, and either gives a massive damage boost outright killing the enemy, or a temporal advantage, delaying an attack in such a way that a following attack is not possible, which eliminates one of the key advantages Terran had. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On May 23 2014 04:01 Foreverkul wrote: Aren't there the same number of mineral patches on a gold base? And SCVs mine at the same rate of normal/gold, its just they return with more. So how does it "take less" to fully saturate a gold base? Even if you use the initial SCV/probes and subtract a minute from SCV mining you get: 6 SCVs at 55 gold minerals/minute for 4 minutes = 1320 6 probes at 39 minerals.minute for 5 minutes = 1170 This is very simplified (scv/probe production or mules) but my point is that gold base generates a large income advantage over time. The first few minutes the Terran will have less, but after they land their entire economy is boosted by about 40% (gold minerals give 1.4 times normal minerals). Its inevitable that the Terran would have more minerals then the normal base Protoss. This strategy on this map works because of this massive economic boost. In this specific game MVP made some poor decisions, but the concerns stems from the fact that TOD was on 1 base THE WHOLE GAME. 1 base vs 1 base gold, given players of similar skill and races are balanced, the gold base will have an advantage, but TOD clearly had the advantage. Why? Well, I don't imagine TOD is much better or worse than MVP, and TOD never got a 2nd base to offset the gold income economy. This leaves the third option that could indicate races may not be balanced. Despite the damage that TOD did to the economy, MVP already had a massive army so it didn't really matter. But that meant that TOD built a pylon, a warp prism, and 6-8 Zealots that WEREN'T present in the final battle. That's a lot of resources, and MVP had a huge army, yet TOD still won easily. My conclusion: is that Photon Overcharge is too strong and basically uncountable from a Terran standpoint. It costs Protoss nothing, and either gives a massive damage boost outright killing the enemy, or a temporal advantage, delaying an attack in such a way that a following attack is not possible, which eliminates one of the key advantages Terran had. Gold bases have only 6 patches as opposed to 8 of normal bases. edit: I suppose gold bases do give a slight advantage once fully saturated because 6*7= 42 as opposed to 8*5 = 40, but it's very close overall. Nothing in that game indicated imbalance to me, the defending player always has an advantage over the attacking player, MVP was forced to attack when he didn't want to, ToD's Collosi survived for the entire fight and were hitting MVP's marines, MVP didn't target fire very well with his tanks, ect ect. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 23 2014 04:01 Foreverkul wrote: Aren't there the same number of mineral patches on a gold base? And SCVs mine at the same rate of normal/gold, its just they return with more. So how does it "take less" to fully saturate a gold base? Because there are 6 patches on a gold base vs 8 on a normal one. A gold patch yields 40% more but since there are two less of them, the difference is not very important in the end (856 max for the gold vs 816 max for the blue). | ||
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Foreverkul
United States1649 Posts
On May 23 2014 04:10 Pursuit_ wrote: Gold bases have only 6 patches as opposed to 8 of normal bases. edit: I suppose gold bases do give a slight advantage once fully saturated because 6*7= 42 as opposed to 8*5 = 40, but it's very close overall. Nothing in that game indicated imbalance to me, the defending player always has an advantage over the attacking player, MVP was forced to attack when he didn't want to, ToD's Collosi survived for the entire fight and were hitting MVP's marines, MVP didn't target fire very well with his tanks, ect ect. Ah thanks, I forgot about that fact. Though Mules overcome that low saturation since the can mine simultaneously, plus you still need to harvest gas with something. The gold base may have a lower saturation but before its fully saturated, it will be mined faster so you can only exclude the saturation factor after a certain amount of time, which isn't very significant in a short game. In the end, the gold base would still have a mineral advantage. I know that in this specific game, MVP really played poorly. My issue is though, did he play poorly enough that his mineral advantage was completely canceled out against a 1 base Protoss? He had a TON of tanks and marines, but notice how TOD didn't even bother to engage, he let the overcharge kill half the marines before he even moved. Overcharge is just WAY too strong. I just imagine the fight would have been much closer instead of being so one sided if it weren't for overcharge. | ||
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EngrishTeacher
Canada1109 Posts
On May 23 2014 04:36 Foreverkul wrote: Ah thanks, I forgot about that fact. Though Mules overcome that low saturation since the can mine simultaneously, plus you still need to harvest gas with something. The gold base may have a lower saturation but before its fully saturated, it will be mined faster so you can only exclude the saturation factor after a certain amount of time, which isn't very significant in a short game. In the end, the gold base would still have a mineral advantage. I know that in this specific game, MVP really played poorly. My issue is though, did he play poorly enough that his mineral advantage was completely canceled out against a 1 base Protoss? He had a TON of tanks and marines, but notice how TOD didn't even bother to engage, he let the overcharge kill half the marines before he even moved. Overcharge is just WAY too strong. I just imagine the fight would have been much closer instead of being so one sided if it weren't for overcharge. Yah that's an excellent point; you see this in PvP a lot where early pressure (6-10 stalkers) does NOTHING, the defender just has to camp a sentry or half the attacker's # of stalkers at the ramp and laugh while PO takes care of business. In PvT this is even worse; as long as the protoss has a functional pair of hands and eyes, and pulls probes back to main, PO basically kills all pre-medivac timing pushes from the Terran. Now I very rarely balance whine (and I play random), but PO feels like one of those things that basically gives the option of playing No Rush 10 minutes to the Protoss while Terran has to deal with a plethora of early Protoss cheese. | ||
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ReMinD_
Croatia846 Posts
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On May 23 2014 04:51 ReMinD_ wrote: I think that MULEs yield same amount of minerals despite mining gold patches. This is correct On May 23 2014 04:49 EngrishTeacher wrote:Now I very rarely balance whine (and I play random), but PO feels like one of those things that basically gives the option of playing No Rush 10 minutes to the Protoss while Terran has to deal with a plethora of early Protoss cheese. I've complained about this plenty in the past, but it seems that at higher levels Terrans have learned how to play around this with standard play. The problem is that standard play for Terrans has essentially become 1-2 builds with only a couple variations, and nothing else really works. I think it's horrible design. That being said, win rates have started to even out with the mine buff MsC vision nerf and Terran players having had enough time to learn how to more consistently scout and respond to the mass amount of Protoss openings. | ||
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