Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 985

On May 18 2014 23:32 Glorfindel! wrote:
So, lets talk about the state of TvZ.

As of now, Terrans are dying like flies vs Zerg. No Terran seems to have a great win ratio in the match up, someone brought up Innovation with 65% earlier today.

Same time Zergs are crushing Terrans left and right, thinking of Effort today as an example defeating Flash and TY and killing Maru yesterday.

Is Zergs getting to a point where Terran is figured out and a huge misstake is needed for a Z to loose vs a Terran?

In the straight up games, where no misstakes are made from either side I feel like the Muta-ball + Ultralisks wins a very high percentage of the late games. Terran gets out expanded on maps that has more expansions that I have fingers on my two hands combined.

Thoughts?

On May 19 2014 01:37 Big J wrote:


Yeah. I feel like it is just so hard to establish a 4th against mutaballs that the current standard just seems to be to not even attempt to go for it and push 3:4 base until the game is over or throw down a desperation 4th at 17+ mins and die anyways.
Not quite sure what's wrong with extreme turtlemech though on the few maps where it is viable. When foreign Terrans play it against foreign Zergs ot looks very fair, but I havent seen any Korean since reality go for the mapsplit+mineout game.
Also that 3fac into bio just looks like a desperation build.

On May 19 2014 01:37 Big J wrote:


Also that 3fac into bio just looks like a desperation build.

On May 18 2014 23:32 Glorfindel! wrote:
So, lets talk about the state of TvZ.

As of now, Terrans are dying like flies vs Zerg. No Terran seems to have a great win ratio in the match up, someone brought up Innovation with 65% earlier today.

Same time Zergs are crushing Terrans left and right, thinking of Effort today as an example defeating Flash and TY and killing Maru yesterday.

Is Zergs getting to a point where Terran is figured out and a huge misstake is needed for a Z to loose vs a Terran?

In the straight up games, where no misstakes are made from either side I feel like the Muta-ball + Ultralisks wins a very high percentage of the late games. Terran gets out expanded on maps that has more expansions that I have fingers on my two hands combined.

Thoughts?

On May 19 2014 06:07 Waise wrote:

the matchup is too stale. you can talk about the widow mine buff if you want, and obviously that changed things, but the plain and simple fact is that yes, it is "figured out" for zerg. 3 reaper doesn't do enough. blue flame hellion and cloak banshee don't do enough. mech is viable but weak and it's not fun to play against anyway. and obviously bio without hellions gives zerg complete map control and it might as well be GG from there already, so that's not an option

as a zerg player i feel that terran just doesn't have much of a window to damage me if i play a good fundamental defensive game until i have 4+ bases up. defending reaper/hellion is something we do EVERY SINGLE GAME and there aren't that many tricks terran has left to do damage with it. sure, if your micro is off or you make a mistake, you take damage. but that's mostly a matter of derpy one-off mistakes or simply having inferior control overall. when i lose to terrans it's usually because they're flat out better than i am, i take a bad engagement and end up in zergling rally hell, bungle my drop defense, or screw up against mech and let ravens get out. i fucking hate raven turtles, but i understand why they do it, because it's one of the only ways to put pressure on the zerg player to make something happen in the game. same as using swarm hosts vs P

i love playing against an evenly matched terran, it's a great matchup. but so many of my ladder games i run into terrans who just don't have the mechanics to make the race work, which means i run over their entire army in the middle of the map over and over and over while replenishing infinite ling/bling until they just quit. it seems really frustrating for them, and even worse it means that i'm not getting practice microing against good players, so i'm not improving either. my best case scenario is usually playing a terran who's probably a little better than me overall

On May 19 2014 05:52 Nebuchad wrote:


Why?

On May 19 2014 08:04 aZealot wrote:
To be fair to Blizzard, Zerg QQ and community whine about "stale matchup" (because 4M was so "boring") were the main reasons they nerfed the WM. And Blizzard did it after waiting through a significant period of QQ and whine. Not for the first time, the community knee jerk reacts and kicks itself in the face.

On May 19 2014 08:58 YumYumGranola wrote:
Swarm hosts suck, but Zerg needs them to beat Protoss deathball.

Why is Protoss deathball so powerful? So much AoE is one answer, but Terran mech from BW showed that just because something had a lot of AoE doesn't make it deathball-y or OP.

Roach Hydra Viper/Infestor vs. Protoss deathball reminds me a lot of PvT in BW (or could be a lot like it). In this instance, Zerg in SC2 is the Protoss in BW, and Protoss SC2 is the Terran in BW. The reason is that roach/hydra are similar to zealot/dragoon in that they are generally meaty units intended to attack move into the opponents army. Vipers take on the place of Arbiters, as they are powerful spellcasters intended to neutralize the high value units of the opponent.

The difference between SC2 ZvP and BW TvP? Simple, there's too little advantage to be gained from the pre-engagement. A terran mech army could ruin a much larger Protoss army because they were so powerful when set up, but if the Terran army is caught out of position it was just as likely to blow itself up with it's own AoE and could lose terribly. The skill in the engagements on part of both the Protoss and Terran wasn't so much in the engagement itself, but everything leading up to it. Both sides needed perfect awareness of their enemies army movements, the Terran to counter and the Protoss to take advantage of weakness. Now look at SC2. Even if a Zerg player manages to catch the protoss army on the move with their Colossus exposed, it doesn't matter, all the Toss needs to do is throw down some FF and airwalk their Colossus away. I feel that Roach/Hydra/Viper could be a lot more viable if we implemented the following change:

Solution: Colossus can no longer air-walk over their own armies.

Side Effects: If a Protoss player is caught napping, it would matter.

On May 19 2014 08:04 aZealot wrote:
To be fair to Blizzard, Zerg QQ and community whine about "stale matchup" (because 4M was so "boring") were the main reasons they nerfed the WM. And Blizzard did it after waiting through a significant period of QQ and whine. Not for the first time, the community knee jerk reacts and kicks itself in the face.

On May 19 2014 08:18 helius788 wrote:
The WM nerf wasn't because the Matchup was so boring. Blizzard thought that Terran/WM were overpowered... But after one season Zergs had already figured out the 4M style... I think the WM should hit quicker, since most of the time as a zerg you can run over them and it hits the Terran almost as much. dunno

On May 19 2014 09:27 Waise wrote:

4m parade pushes were boring and watching them was usually just watching the push either die or not die and then the game pretty much ends. just because tvz is broken right now, that doesn't mean i have to admit it was "fine" before. there are lots of great things about tvz in general but the widow mine deathtrap outside the zerg fourth base got fucking old and was terrible starcraft. every single tvz on belshir vestige made me want to puke for months