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helius788
New Zealand74 Posts
wm should "hit quicker"? what do you mean? I didn't mean the time you get them in the game, but more the time when they burrow and then hit. Nonetheless, I'm not a big fan of WM, anyways. But for TvZ, Terran needs some sort of upgrade, since Muta's speed and reg is too strong. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9419 Posts
4m parade pushes were boring and watching them was usually just watching the push either die or not die and then the game pretty much ends. just because tvz is broken right now, that doesn't mean i have to admit it was "fine" before. there are lots of great things about tvz in general but the widow mine deathtrap outside the zerg fourth base got fucking old and was terrible starcraft. every single tvz on belshir vestige made me want to puke for months Yeh but paradepushes was just a phase that lasted for around 2-3 months or so. Before Widow Mine got nerfed, zergs had already pretty much figured out how to stop them, and we saw lots of macrooriented back-and-fourth games. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On May 19 2014 10:11 Faust852 wrote: Saying that the TvZ was boring before the patch is really funny considering 4 out the top10 best games of 2013 were TvZ pre-patch. Saying that TvZ was boring generally does not mean you can´t have awesome games occasionally. Beside that i do think terran could have a small buff to help in TvZ. What to do is a different matter as personally i don´t want to have the old WM back. In my opinion they were a bit too random and i hope they could buff T in some other way that will help in a normal macro game. (No bunker build time decrease) | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
But if half of the best game of the year were TvZ, I don't think it was occasional. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On May 19 2014 10:20 Faust852 wrote: Imho, nerfing muta regen is the way to do it, and bring back mapstyle where getting a 4rd is actually challenging for the Z, and not a given (Bel'shir like). But if half of the best game of the year were TvZ, I don't think it was occasional. 4/10 and there is no way to prove that matters. It can be pure accident, there can be bias towards TvZ from the people who chose those matches. | ||
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helius788
New Zealand74 Posts
Can't proof anything about pre-WM patch etc. I personally like Siege tanks, but you would need to buff them so incredible much to work in a bio TvZ that it wouldn't be fun in other areas... ;-D | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On May 19 2014 10:29 RaFox17 wrote: 4/10 and there is no way to prove that matters. It can be pure accident, there can be bias towards TvZ from the people who chose those matches. I had fun counting on the top40 of TL best game of 2013, there are 17 TvZ(prepatch) in it, 10 of them in the top20, 4 in the top10. I think you are the guy that is biased against TvZ for personal reason. | ||
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Waise
3165 Posts
On May 19 2014 10:46 Faust852 wrote: I had fun counting on the top40 of TL best game of 2013, there are 17 TvZ(prepatch) in it, 10 of them in the top20, 4 in the top10. I think you are the guy that is biased against TvZ for personal reason. not sure what your point is. you're just quoting polls about what games people like. anyone is entitled to any opinion on what constitutes an interesting matchup or an interesting game. | ||
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Waise
3165 Posts
On May 19 2014 09:52 aZealot wrote: no, you actually made this up out of thin air and you're accusing me of personal bias for absolutely no reason. i don't do discussion that way, sorry So, basically it was boring because Terran had a successful strategy and the upper hand in that match-up for a while?  On May 19 2014 09:52 aZealot wrote:Personally, I thought it fascinating to see Zergs adapt to the strategy over time and try and fail and try and fail to beat it over a period of many weeks. and personally i thought it was shitty gameplay just like pvt blink is shitty gameplay. watching players adapt the metagame is always interesting. that doesn't mean everything IN the meta is interestingYeh but paradepushes was just a phase that lasted for around 2-3 months or so. Before Widow Mine got nerfed, zergs had already pretty much figured out how to stop them, and we saw lots of macrooriented back-and-fourth games. parade pushes every single game was a phase but they were not "figured out" or nonviable at any point before the nerf | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On May 19 2014 09:52 aZealot wrote: So, basically it was boring because Terran had a successful strategy and the upper hand in that match-up for a while? Personally, I thought it fascinating to see Zergs adapt to the strategy over time and try and fail and try and fail to beat it over a period of many weeks. It culminated in Innovation vs DRG on Whirlwind where DRG took all the previous learning from Zergs and won. Sure the fact that it was a big-ass map helped, but if we complain that a strategy is boring because it succeeds and succeeds well then we deserve everything that we get in having Blizzard "fix" the problem for us. This is not to say that "boredom" was the reason Blizzard patched. I think the main reason was the QQ and the win rates. Well, DRG didnt' win on whirlwind, he almost won but then crushed Inno on Derelict Watcher and Yeonsu. Imo this matchup could really be saved with more maps like Yeonsu or Heavy Rain (in terms of the chokes), because it reduced the skill floor for terran to compete--losing a whole army accidently because of a single mistake in splits is a lot easier when all the banelings come through one or two chokes. Splitting is insanely hard to do when zerg is in a massive concave and comes in from 200 degrees. Making more chokey maps though could cause trouble in other matchups though (like ZvP particularly) and it doesn't fix the underlying problem in TvZ which is that Terran has no way to deal with mass muta, Terran has no reliable midgame army to use, and can't hope to compete with muta/baneling/ultra/infestor. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On May 19 2014 10:46 Faust852 wrote: I had fun counting on the top40 of TL best game of 2013, there are 17 TvZ(prepatch) in it, 10 of them in the top20, 4 in the top10. I think you are the guy that is biased against TvZ for personal reason. I do like TvZ, but don´t like the old WM as it felt too random for me. My point is that your "evidence" is not evidence at all of the state of the MU. Those top10 charts are peoples opinions and opinions are not facts. Thing that is often forgotten in TL. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On May 19 2014 10:52 Waise wrote: no, you actually made this up out of thin air and you're accusing me of personal bias for absolutely no reason. i don't do discussion that way, sorry Fair point. I did read your comment that way. I apologise. We'll have to agree to disagree on the substantive point: for me, patching for "boredom" is the worst reason to patch. But, then, I dislike most patches. Heck, the only HOTS patches I think truly necessary were the MSC vision nerf and the TW nerf (and even that is only partway done). Oh yeah, those patches, and maybe the Hellbat nerf from early HOTS too. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On May 19 2014 11:15 Faust852 wrote: ^But you are not expressing facts either, just your opinion, man. I never claimed anything. i did not say that TvZ was balance or unbalanced before WN nerf. I only said that 4/10 best games of the year does not proof anything and is has too many variables to be used as such. | ||
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TheOne26
Australia142 Posts
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O2taku
Canada19 Posts
Reducing phoenix range back to 4 but leaving the upgrade as 7 range might be necessary if this is done. That way, they both function the same as now in the late game. I don't think the range nerf would drastically change TvP at this point. I might be missing something important, but I thought it could be a decent change. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 19 2014 15:39 O2taku wrote: I wonder if changing mutalisks in the early game would help the balance. Remove the built-in regen from mutas and putting it at the spire as a cheap hive level upgrade? This would make it easier for mid-game Terran. Reducing phoenix range back to 4 but leaving the upgrade as 7 range might be necessary if this is done. That way, they both function the same as now in the late game. I don't think the range nerf would drastically change TvP at this point. I might be missing something important, but I thought it could be a decent change. For ZvT it sounds very good. Forces Zergs to invest more and earlier in tech and turn lairheavy play more into a timing/allin style. But I think it would incredibly weaken their power in ZvP midgame. Protoss may just be able to change all their openings to not include any Stargates and still be fine vs mutalisks while being much stronger set up vs roach/hydra type of gameplay. Would still be worthwhile testing though, imo. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
Mass muta was a top strategy in PvZ in WoL and that was when mutas had their old 3.75 speed, now they move at 4 speed. Phoenix were absolutely useless as a counter unless you guessed mass muta well in advance and made 2-stargate Phoenix on 2 bases. Phoenix cannot effectively kite with a 1 range and 0.25 speed difference and they just get slaughtered. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 19 2014 19:01 Xequecal wrote: 4-range Phoenix would leave Protoss with serious problems dealing with mass muta. Even without the regen, Protoss has nothing that can effectively fight them before the upgrade comes into play. It would be very easy to contain a Protoss player to 2 bases because there's no way blink stalkers can defend 3 bases from 4-speed mutas. You can't split the stalkers up or they'll get killed and blink only allows them to move from one base to a second, leaving the third unprotected while blink charges. Mass muta was a top strategy in PvZ in WoL and that was when mutas had their old 3.75 speed, now they move at 4 speed. Phoenix cannot effectively kite with a 1 range and 0.25 speed difference and they just get slaughtered. Mutas were hardly ever played towards the end of WoL and only successful against very straight Robo macro builds (so the type of no SG, no/late blink, fast colossus). Blink and Storm was completely sufficient against them and 4speed or 3.75speed will hardly make a difference in terms of how fast you can switch locations. You absolutly cannot contain a Protoss to two bases with mutas, because a good Protoss has his third up long before even 2base mutas can hit it and a SG opening that already has 5phoenixes on the field would still demolish all those 2base muta plays anyways. Not to mention that there is Nexus canon now as well and Protoss isn't lost in basetrades anymore with recall. | ||
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